Cable vs DSL Rollout (aka why NTL are brilliant/useless)

OfflerCrocGod

Sponge Bob wrote:

Leaking in November was a precautionary measure to steal NTL thunder.

I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest; after all the people who get excited about these rumors are us (no one else cares or knows about these upgrades). Who here if they had a choice between NTL or €ircon would hesitate to go NTL/UPC? After all once (if!) UPC unleash their 10Mb package you would have to be an idiot* to stay with €ircon. The're not pushed to roll out high upload speeds that's all.




* This type of person wouldn't know about these €ircon rumors.

Blaster99

What NTL thunder is this? The annual "we're going to cover all of Dublin by the end of the year"? Surely only bk and Silicon Republic get excited about that? I can't imagine anyone pays much attention to NTL.

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

What NTL thunder is this? The annual "we're going to cover all of Dublin by the end of the year"? Surely only bk and Silicon Republic get excited about that? I can't imagine anyone pays much attention to NTL.

Despite that they are upgrading areas and mathematically if they continue to do this they will cover Dublin???

Blaster99

Maybe we have different expectations of thunder. The odd housing estate here and there doesn't really amount to thunder in my books.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

What NTL thunder is this? The annual "we're going to cover all of Dublin by the end of the year"? Surely only bk and Silicon Republic get excited about that? I can't imagine anyone pays much attention to NTL.
....
Maybe we have different expectations of thunder. The odd housing estate here and there doesn't really amount to thunder in my books.

Ah now Blaster99 jealousy gets you no where. There seems to be a strange syndrome of denial amongst people who can't get NTL that it isn't widespread or exciting.

I'm sure the whole of Galway and Waterford city don't consider themselves "the odd housing estate", nor would almost half of cable customers in Dublin who can now get BB from NTL.

NTL offering 10mb would be a very important event, specially for us who already have NTL and it would be something that would worry Eircom greatly as currently they can't even come close to competing with that.

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

Maybe we have different expectations of thunder. The odd housing estate here and there doesn't really amount to thunder in my books.

Very true, However off the top of my head I can name 5 AREAS (not estates) that have been upgraded in the last year. None of these are new developments.

Blaster99

Why would I be jealous? I'm looking to disconnect NTL as soon as possible. A complete waste of money.

5 areas in a year, wow. I wonder what the opinion around here would be if Eircom only enabled five exchanges a year. I would be a little more excited if Smart came my way.

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

5 areas in a year, wow. I wonder what the opinion around here would be if Eircom only enabled five exchanges a year. I would be a little more excited if Smart came my way.

I said I know of 5 areas, not that they updated 5 areas. Believe it or not I do not write down every area I read here. But I can name 5 people who recently couldn't get NTL BB and now can. Proof of roll out. Ironically I would imagine you are the sixth area I know of that was upgraded.

Blaster99

I'm still waiting for the thunder. Well actually I'm not, because even if I could get NTL BB I wouldn't get it.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

I'm still waiting for the thunder. Well actually I'm not, because even if I could get NTL BB I wouldn't get it.

Please explain why, if they offered 10m/512k in the morning for €40 (I'm not saying that they will), why wouldn't you get it?

Even now with the Eircom upgrades, NTL is still better value for money 3m NTL for €40 versus Eircom 3m for €54 and NTL is much better due to low latency, higher speeds and much better uptime (I've had both 2m DSL and NTL).

You seem to have an illogical hatred of NTL, can you please explain why?

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

5 areas in a year, wow. I wonder what the opinion around here would be if Eircom only enabled five exchanges a year. I would be a little more excited if Smart came my way.

In the last 12 months they have enabled the whole of Galway and Waterford city.

If you look at user posts here on boards you will see that parts of the following areas have been enabled:

D1, D4, D6, D7, D8, D9, D11, D12, D13, D15, D16, D22 and D24.

Most of this work has been done in the last 12 months, now while these areas certainly aren't completely covered, it is still an awfult lot of work and is probably rolling out faster then Eircom is upgrading exchanges. eircom is only ahead becuase it started enabling exchanges earlier then NTL.

Blaster99

bk wrote:

Please explain why, if they offered 10m/512k in the morning for €40 (I'm not saying that they will), why wouldn't you get it?

Even now with the Eircom upgrades, NTL is still better value for money 3m NTL for €40 versus Eircom 3m for €54 and NTL is much better due to low latency, higher speeds and much better uptime (I've had both 2m DSL and NTL).

You seem to have an illogical hatred of NTL, can you please explain why?

When it comes to BB, they've talked ****e for at least five years. I detest vapour and I'm reacting to the overhyped support they receive for having done sod all really. Yes well done, they've enabled parts of their network and offer much the same services as everyone else.

When it comes to NTL and my not going for it, there is currently no reason to use them what so ever. They may be offering a gazillion megabits at some stage in the future, but let's deal with that eventuality when it happens. Chances are everyone else will do the same at that point. You can safely ignore Eircom's prices and look at BT's prices instead. The situation isn't quite so rosy then.

The fact that they charge €20-30pm for free TV doesn't exactly help either, but I've banged that drum enough in another thread. This is the primary reason I'm getting rid of them. I'd rather pay €25 to Eircom (or BT) for line rental as it's at least giving me some value. I think I concluded in that other thread that I would save at least €10 a month by using BT + Telestunt + FTV instead of using NTL + Blueface. Another €10 if we include NTL Digital to get similar number of stations as FTV.

I'm sure Eircom can do the same math and may have concluded that NTL is not a threat. Smart on the other hand offers prices that are very competitive and I wouldn't be surprised if they have better coverage than NTL. Hard to tell because NTL's coverage is very difficult to pin down. Believers like you think it's a big foot print, nonbelievers like me thinks it's mostly BS...

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

The fact that they charge €20-30pm for free TV doesn't exactly help either,.

I can see your point. 19Euro for 15 tv channels or 24.18 for a copper pair you use for maybe two things. One being BB which in my experience (2 different addresses) isn't near as good as cable.

NTL. Hard to tell because NTL's coverage is very difficult to pin down. Believers like you think it's a big foot print, nonbelievers like me thinks it's mostly BS...

Despite constantly reading about more people getting installed you still refuse to believe this. Seems more that you don't want to believe it...

Now do your usual, follow up with a generalised reply with a snide answer that gives you the satisfaction of thinking you are right even though it will be something like "only half of Dublin in 12 months."

CareerSearcher

We are on BT 512/128 (90.00 + vat monthly) and need to upgrade. I have just discovered that we are being 'ripped off' as "The new offer which is available to all our customers is €30 per month for standard broadband or just €40 for broadband plus" (2MB/128) with line rental 10.00 extra. BT do not even bother to inform current customers of the service options available, daylight robbery to say the least.

Smart offer an uncontended 3MB/256 for 70.00 inclusive of line.

Sorry for the rant.

Question: anybody got any advise on best option to pursue? cable is out.

Appreciate input.

paulm17781

If you ca get Smart I would think get it. BT shouldn't be offering 512k service anymore. Are you sure you weren't upgraded and you didn't realise? If you are on a 512k service you are being seriously ripped off.

Sarsfield

bk wrote:

If you look at user posts here on boards you will see that parts of the following areas have been enabled:

D1, D4, D6, D7, D8, D9, D11, D12, D13, D15, D16, D22 and D24.

You can add D10 & D20 to that list.

Blaster99

paulm17781 wrote:

Despite constantly reading about more people getting installed you still refuse to believe this. Seems more that you don't want to believe it...

Now do your usual, follow up with a generalised reply with a snide answer that gives you the satisfaction of thinking you are right even though it will be something like "only half of Dublin in 12 months."

You're quite handy with the ol' sniping yourself, so let's go easy on the glass house shall we.

I don't deny that there are people getting NTL, but does that really imply that there's this really rapid rollout occuring? The thunder, remember.

There are a fair few people who are like "I'm in Dublin X, but can't get NTL BB" followed by "I'm in Dublin X too, but I'm 50 yards down the road and I can get it". This leads me to think that all these "Dublin X" is enabled isn't quite so true. Most people I know are in Dublin SE and extremely few of them can get NTL BB. That's a reasonable portion of Dublin with patchy NTL BB support at best. I know Tallaght and a lot of areas around the M50 in West and NW Dublin can get it, which is incidently very similar to Smart's coverage. Does it make it more than half of Dublin? Debatable. It's incidently a fairly pointless debate as we're just speculating but I don't get the impression that there is this massive rollout occurring, but maybe I'm not listening hard enough for the NTL train. The ComReg stats I've seen on NTL takeup is also low. I'm not a man to remember lots of stats but it's probably no greater than 5% nationally. Considering Dublin probably has at least 50% of the country's internet users due to massively better availability, that's not all that impressive.

Blaster99

paulm17781 wrote:

I can see your point. 19Euro for 15 tv channels or 24.18 for a copper pair you use for maybe two things. One being BB which in my experience (2 different addresses) isn't near as good as cable.

€19.50, to be exact. €20 among friends. For something that is otherwise free. A phone line can also be had for free from Digiweb, so maybe they're the real heroes. And their coverage is probably better or as good as NTL's...

damien

NTL saying all of Waterford and Galway are covered and almost all of Dublin is the same as eircom saying all towns can get broadband. Marketing and self-congratulatory bull. We know there's demand for broadband everywhere, people talk about the great NTL products, so why have they such a low number of broadband customers?

NTL apologists please step forward.

bk

damien.m wrote:

NTL apologists please step forward.

Sir, yes, sir

damien.m wrote:

NTL saying all of Waterford and Galway are covered and almost all of Dublin is the same as eircom saying all towns can get broadband. Marketing and self-congratulatory bull. We know there's demand for broadband everywhere, people talk about the great NTL products, so why have they such a low number of broadband customers?

Low? according to comreg's last quarterly report (Q3 05) they have 18,000 customers, that would easily put them around the same as BT.

Sure that is only one tenth of DSL, but it is rapidly increasing. 20% quarter on quarter (compared to 16% for DSL) and 233% year on year (compared to 194% for DSL).

NTL report an uptake rate of about 11%, that is one of the best in Europe and when you consider NTL don't have a massive national advertising campaign like Eircom it is pretty impresive.

From this is pretty easy to figure out how many lines they have enabled and as of Q3 05 is stands at about 200,000. There are a total of 1,287,958 houses in Ireland (CSO 2002, probably closer to 1.4 or 1.5 million now), so it certainly is a significant amount.

BTW NTL has never said they cover almost all of Dublin, their official results as of November 11th is 155,200 broadband enabled homes (out of about 300,000+ cabled homes).

As I noted in another thread, Eircoms new DSL specs closely match NTL's products, coincidence? I don't think so. I believe that we wouldn't be getting these higher speeds from Eircom if it wasn't for NTL and the FWA companies. They are the ones driving competition in the BB market.

Damien, I realise down in Cork with Crappy Chorus, all this talk of how cool NTL BB is seems to be a million miles away, but here in Dublin there is a real buzz about NTL as more and more people sign up and find how much better it is then DSL. Don't underestimate it.

DialUpMeArse

I have to say pretty much the same, when it came to TV I simply signed up for SKY and went for it straight out. SKY write to you, spell your bill out for you, and write to you in advance to tell you what day it is tomorrow. And all the years of HYPE and SHEE-AT from RTE and their Communist footsoldiers about how SKY were out to do us all.

I rang NTL and got some mumbling clown talking fudge about mini dishes and TG4. Pennywise, but pound foolish in the long run.

Jumpy

DialUpMeArse wrote:

I have to say pretty much the same, when it came to TV I simply signed up for SKY and went for it straight out. SKY write to you, spell your bill out for you, and write to you in advance to tell you what day it is tomorrow. And all the years of HYPE and SHEE-AT from RTE and their Communist footsoldiers about how SKY were out to do us all.

I rang NTL and got some mumbling clown talking fudge about mini dishes and TG4. Pennywise, but pound foolish in the long run.

Just wait Hopefully sky will become the clowns if Liberty/UPC pumps money into the country.
*crosses fingers*

Jumpy

Blaster99 wrote:

BT + Telestunt + FTV

Could you live on Fashion TV alone?

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

It's incidently a fairly pointless debate as we're just speculating but I don't get the impression that there is this massive rollout occurring, but maybe I'm not listening hard enough for the NTL train. The ComReg stats I've seen on NTL takeup is also low. I'm not a man to remember lots of stats but it's probably no greater than 5% nationally. Considering Dublin probably has at least 50% of the country's internet users due to massively better availability, that's not all that impressive.

Ok here are official figures:
November 2003: 28,000 homes BB ready *
November 2004: 66,500 homes BB ready
November 2005: 155,200 homes BB ready

* this is pretty much steady from the Tallagth rollout a few years earlier.

There are 1,287,958 homes in Ireland (CSO 2002, probably about 1.4m by now), so about 12% nationaly.

So as you can clearly see, they really are ramping up the rollout. It they enable another 88,700 homes in the next 12 months, that will probably complete almost all NTL cable customers.

You are right that is far less then DSL, but cable will never compete with DSL in terms of reaching rural areas etc. However the idea is that it will give choice and introduce competition in urban areas, which will force Eircom to drop prices and improve specs and therefore benefit everyone including those in rural areas. I believe Eircoms introduction of new products today is a direct result of competition from NTL and FWA companies.

Blaster99 wrote:

When it comes to NTL and my not going for it, there is currently no reason to use them what so ever. They may be offering a gazillion megabits at some stage in the future, but let's deal with that eventuality when it happens. Chances are everyone else will do the same at that point. You can safely ignore Eircom's prices and look at BT's prices instead. The situation isn't quite so rosy then.

OK, lets look at the reality now, NTL 3m/300k - €45, Eircom 3Mbps / 256kbps = €107 (and about the same from BT)

NTL 2m/200k = €35 - BT 2m/128k = €40
NTL 2m/200k + TV = €54.5 - BT 2m/128k + Line rental = €50

Personally I consider the TV to be better value for money as I use it in 4 different rooms in the house, while I already have a mobile, so what do I want a telephone line for? I suppose it depends upon your priorities.

Either way you should be cheering on NTL and all the other BB companies, the more competition they introduce, the better and cheaper your DSL will be.

Blaster99

Jumpy wrote:

Just wait Hopefully sky will become the clowns if Liberty/UPC pumps money into the country.
*crosses fingers*

Liberty will pay you to watch TV? It's otherwise difficult to beat free.

Blaster99

bk wrote:

NTL 2m/200k = €35 - BT 2m/128k = €40
NTL 2m/200k + TV = €54.5 - BT 2m/128k + Line rental = €50

Personally I consider the TV to be better value for money as I use it in 4 different rooms in the house, while I already have a mobile, so what do I want a telephone line for? I suppose it depends upon your priorities.

Either way you should be cheering on NTL and all the other BB companies, the more competition they introduce, the better and cheaper your DSL will be.

Strictly speaking you should be paying €5 per room. You can do multi-room viewing with sat too. With a once-off fee.

And you forgot about telephony. That's at least another €5 a month with the NTL solution (assuming Blueface, most commonly suggested VoIP provider), hence you're down €10. And you need to pay NTL €10 to get anything resembling the channels available on FTV, so that's €20 down.

Which would be the primary reason why I have no interest in NTL. Maybe it's just me, but it seems extraordinarily daft to pay NTL €30 a month for something that's easily freely available.

paulm17781

Jumpy wrote:

Could you live on Fashion TV alone?

To add to what BK said......

I noticed in the Comreg report that NTL had about 18000 subscriber which is up from what it was last year (3000)? That is huge growth. They also increased by a higher percentage than eircon. Now I accept that it is from a measly low figure and eircon had a much higher number enabled in the same period but none the less, it is still rapid growth and shows that their uptake is increasing faster than Eircon's and will likely continue to do so.

To add to what Blaster99 said.........

I do agree, there has been no thunder as yet. None the less they are only really starting Eircon had years to get to where they are, NTL have done little to no advertising either. The way things are going I too wonder if there ever will be real competition from NTL. Liberty didn't buy NTL for no reason though. I know the same is true of NTL buying cable link but NTL ran out of money. I would think Liberty prepared for this. Here's hoping.

Also, I would imagine West Dublin is close to half of Dublin's population. I could be way off but, Tallaght, Clondalkin, Lucan, Blach etc. That is a large amount of Dublin. No idea how many of them are BB enabled but it would make business sense to start in this area.

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but it seems extraordinarily daft to pay NTL €30 a month for something that's easily freely available.

I do see your point here. I live in an apartment so no dishes. There is NTL by default. Multi-room is another thing, if I had a house I would have atleast 2 TVs wanting channels on both. I assume FTA can do two STBs. Can it do more? If so it would seem to be a viable option, if I had a house.

For BT to compare to Blueface rates (5 hours free) you would have to pay them €25 (if memory serves) per month. Even with the €10 for Blueface on top of NTL, I think it would still be cheaper than BT and FTA

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

Strictly speaking you should be paying €5 per room. You can do multi-room viewing with sat too. With a once-off fee.

Actually it use to be €2 odd, but not anymore, they give it free now. They charge €5 per multiroom for 100 digital which is excellent value (Sky charge €15 for the same).

The once off fee is only for FTA sat which has an ok, but limited line up. However many people in Dublin can't get sat due to living in apartments.

Blaster99 wrote:

And you forgot about telephony.

Nope, I said I had a mobile.

Or here is another way to look at it:
NTL 2m/200k + TV + VoIP (for unlimited calls €15) = €70
BT 2m/128k + Line rental + unlimited calls pakage = €70

only now you lose out on the TV, (including C4, E4, Discovery, MTV, Sky One and Paramount which aren't FTA) and DSL isn't as fast or stable as the cable and the DSL doesn't have a 3m option (well €107).

Blaster99 wrote:

That's at least another €5 a month with the NTL solution (assuming Blueface, most commonly suggested VoIP provider), hence you're down €10. And you need to pay NTL €10 to get anything resembling the channels available on FTV, so that's €20 down.

See above and also include the fact that NTL is giving me the TV service free for 12 months (so another €20 off per month).

Blaster99 wrote:

Which would be the primary reason why I have no interest in NTL. Maybe it's just me, but it seems extraordinarily daft to pay NTL €30 a month for something that's easily freely available.

Actually this is how I look at it:

NTL 3m/300k = €45
Analogue TV = Free
Blueface = €15
Digital TV x 3 = €20
Total = €80

For a DSL Sky setup it would cost:
3m = €107
Line Rental = €25
Unlmited calls pack = €20
Sky Family Pack = €30
Multi Room x 2 = €30
€212

Ok, so lets look at BT
BT 2m + line rental = €50
Unlmited calls pack = €20
Sky Family Pack = €30
Multi Room x 2 = €30
Total €160

As you can see I'm saving a lot with NTL, yes you can go on about FTA sat, but:

A) it costs about €250 to setup
it doesn't have anything like the lineup of Sky or NTL Digital
C) I rent so it isn't an option.

Even with FTA it still works out about the same price.

So really it depends on your needs, for me NTL is by far the cheapest option, for your needs it might be different. But many people can't get FTA sat or want more channels, so don't go knocking NTL just becuase it doesn't suit your needs.

And note what I siad above about competition helping us all out with cheaper prices all round.

bk

paulm17781 wrote:

I do see your point here. I live in an apartment so no dishes. There is NTL by default. Multi-room is another thing, if I had a house I would have atleast 2 TVs wanting channels on both. I assume FTA can do two STBs. Can it do more? If so it would seem to be a viable option, if I had a house.

FYI, with a quad LNB, you can do upto four indepenent receivers. It would cost you an extra €40 for the LNB and about €100 for each receiver.

Blaster99

Forget call bundles from BT or Eircom or anyone else. You don't need to. You use Telestunt. You would need to make a lot of calls with Blueface to save up the €5 initial line cost. It's also likely that you can get bundles from other VoIP providers and use them over the ADSL line, if that's your thing.

I forgot to add, it does sound like there is some thunder, based on bk's figures. Those growth figures are really impressive. I suppose what is less impressive in the scheme of things is 50% availability in urban areas. I suspect it might get harder for them from now, seeing as they started with the long hanging fruit. But let's see.

Hopefully FTV will kick NTL's ass and you will see some significant savings on the cable TV cost in the future. NTL has always tried to block UK terresterials on Irish sat cards to protect their pathetic TV service, but those days are gone as it's so easy to get a UK card.

With sat you can fairly easily do two-room viewing with different channels being watched in either. You can in addition easily route the same channel selection to multiple TV's, which is probably sufficient in most cases as you're not very likely to be watching more than two TV's at the same time. But if you need lots of TV's that can watch different channels, then satellite ain't it. I only need two so it's not an issue for me.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

Forget call bundles from BT or Eircom or anyone else. You don't need to. You use Telestunt. You would need to make a lot of calls with Blueface to save up the €5 initial line cost. It's also likely that you can get bundles from other VoIP providers and use them over the ADSL line, if that's your thing.

The call bundles are unlimited local and national calls at anytime. These aren't avaialble to telestunt. Just becuase you don't use them doesn't mean others don't.

Blaster99 wrote:

I suspect it might get harder for them from now, seeing as they started with the long hanging fruit. But let's see.

Yes, that is probably true, especially in Chorus areas.

Blaster99 wrote:

Hopefully FTV will kick NTL's ass and you will see some significant savings on the cable TV cost in the future.

I agree, I hope it will also have the same effect on Sky's ridiculous prices. In fairness, NTL only make you take the TV package becuase they have no way of stopping you from receiving it. In Chorus areas, where analogue TV is scrambled, you can get BB without TV.

Blaster99 wrote:

But if you need lots of TV's that can watch different channels, then satellite ain't it. I only need two so it's not an issue for me.

Think people sharing in rented accomadation, each wants their own TV. Plus my housemate needs to feed his 6 tuner MythTV PVR monster :eek:

Blaster99

bk wrote:

only now you lose out on the TV, (including C4, E4, Discovery, MTV, Sky One and Paramount which aren't FTA) and DSL isn't as fast or stable as the cable

Really, DSL isn't stable? Where do you get these gems from?

As for channel lineup, you get C4 + C5 + bunch of stations that you don't get with NTL. Swings and roundabouts. It's called FTV by the way, not FTA. Two different things. You can see the free channel lineup here: http://www.freesatfromsky.co.uk. Still think your €30 a month is good value?

As for setting it up, somewhere between €100 to €150 if you know what you're doing. VoIP ain't free either. And if you start from scratch, NTL is €100 to get installed.

paulm17781

bk wrote:

FYI, with a quad LNB, you can do upto four indepenent receivers. It would cost you an extra €40 for the LNB and about €100 for each receiver.

That's quite good! It still isn't an option for me and from previous experience wouldn't drop NTL. None the less I would consider looking at it, depending on lineup etc. I still can't imagine that I could beat NTL & Blueface though (except Blueface & Leased line )

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

Really, DSL isn't stable? Where do you get these gems from?

In my experience it's not. Parents place it dropped about every 15 minutes. My place it was about every hour. Both now have rock solid cable connections.

Blaster99 wrote:

As for channel lineup, you get C4 + C5 + bunch of stations that you don't get with NTL. Swings and roundabouts.

You do get C4 with NTL.

Blaster99 wrote:

And if you start from scratch, NTL is €100 to get installed.

They don't really charge this, they have a different promotion on this every month. It is similar to how Digifone used to have a connection charge of £42.25 that was always "free" with a new phone.

Blaster99

If you make more than 961 minutes (about 16 hours) worth of local, national, or international landline calls in a month, NTL + Blueface is cheaper than BT + Telestunt + FTV. Otherwise, not.

Blaster99

Actually, that's incorrect. You need to make at least 961 minutes worth of calls to break even with the €10pm Blueface package, less and you lose. With the more expensive call bundles you will save money if you make an enourmous amount of calls, and will lose in all other cases. Particularly during months when you don't make lots of calls. Call bundles are generally to be avoided in my experience.

Blaster99

paulm17781 wrote:

You do get C4 with NTL.

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. I was specifically pointing out that C4 (and 5) is available for free on sat, as many people in NTL land don't seem to think that's the case.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

Really, DSL isn't stable? Where do you get these gems from?

Yes, I had DSL for about 2 years, 512k, then 2m, I had the 2m for about 2 months while I had NTL and I did detailed testing of both.

- NTL has lower latency.
- With NTL you get about 96% of the advertised upload and download speed, with DSL you only got about 75 - 80%
- I've had only about 1 hour downtime in 12 months with NTL, DSL was muc less stable, with far more downtime, not as bad as paulm, but not great when trying to work from hoem and using VNC, VPN, etc.

Blaster99 wrote:

As for channel lineup, you get C4 + C5 + bunch of stations that you don't get with NTL. Swings and roundabouts. It's called FTV by the way, not FTA. Two different things. You can see the free channel lineup here: http://www.freesatfromsky.co.uk. Still think your €30 a month is good value?

Thanks, I'm well aware of the difference, in order to get FTV you need to:

A) You have to have a Sky subscription for 12 months before you can get a FTV card (costs about €300).
You need to have a family or friend with an address in the UK (or buy one of ebay for about €150)
C) most people don't even know it exists or how to get it.

FTA is much more interesting then FTV, FTV won't have any effect on NTL or Sky, however FTA, specially with BBC and ITV now buidling a platform around it (interactive, PVR, EPG, etc.) it is a much more exciting idea (specially if C4 goes FTA in 2008 as many expect).

Blaster99 wrote:

As for setting it up, somewhere between €100 to €150 if you know what you're doing. VoIP ain't free either. And if you start from scratch, NTL is €100 to get installed.

No one ever pays NTL €100, they always give it free. Blueface have a deal where you get the terminal adaptor for just €10, so the setup cost of VoIP isn't signigicant. I wouldn't advise spening less then €200 on a FTA setup, the dishes would be too small for Ireland in bad weather. Plus add an extra €100 for an installer as most people couldn't do it for themselves. And you won't be able to use your FTV card with it. Minimum cost for sky install and 12 month subscription is €280 (probably the best way to get FTA).

bk

But don't you see Blaster99, all the stuff you are talking about is DIY and cutting corners and is well beyond the capabilites of the vast majority of people.

1) Telestunt - many people don't know about it or how to use it (yes it is easy, but it is trciky to use with all the different numbers, most people find it to be too much trouble for anything but international calls).

2) FTA/FTV sat requires you to know a lot about sats and how to install.

3) FTV - most people don't know it exists and it is tricky to get.

Don't you see (depending on setup) for less money or about the same money you get the same or better setup for NTL, without any hastle or thought for the person getting it. It all just works and that is why NTL is so attractive to most people.

BTW I easily use my phone for more then 16 hours a month. Once you have unlimited calls, you tend to use it much more. It is a god send if you work from home.

Blaster99

You can get an FTV card on eBay for £15-20 and you certainly don't need a Sky subscription. Card + equipment will cost somewhere between €100-150. If you can install it yourself, then that's it. I have no idea where you've gotten those other "facts" from.

It's unfortunately quite a lot of ignorance out there when it comes to this stuff, so NTL will possibly continue to charge people €30pm for something that's free. I suppose the reality is that the likes of NTL have every reason to dream up reasons why FTV is bad and nobody makes any money on FTV so it's not really pushed very hard. Not really much of an issue for me.

Blaster99

bk wrote:

But don't you see Blaster99, all the stuff you are talking about is DIY and cutting corners and is well beyond the capabilites of the vast majority of people.

1) Telestunt - many people don't know about it or how to use it (yes it is easy, but it is trciky to use with all the different numbers, most people find it to be too much trouble for anything but international calls).

2) FTA/FTV sat requires you to know a lot about sats and how to install.

3) FTV - most people don't know it exists and it is tricky to get.

Don't you see (depending on setup) for less money or about the same money you get the same or better setup for NTL, without any hastle or thought for the person getting it. It all just works and that is why NTL is so attractive to most people.

Now you're seriously clutching at straws. This is getting sadder by the minute. I'm very sorry to hear that you have difficulty mastering difficult things like eBay, aiming a dish in a certain well documented direction, operating a drill, and plugging in cables in sockets. I was perhaps hoping for more, but do please enjoy NTL. I think if you ask nicely, they will even put in the batteries in your NTL Digital remote control and show how to change the stations.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

You can get an FTV card on eBay for £15-20 and you certainly don't need a Sky subscription. Card + equipment will cost somewhere between €100-150. If you can install it yourself, then that's it. I have no idea where you've gotten those other "facts" from.

A FTV card will not work with a FTA box, you need a Conditional Access Module, it will only work in a Sky box.

Sure you can get a second hand sky box + dish for about €150, but most people wouldn't know how to install it and would probably break their kneck.

I remember seeing FTV cards going for about €150 in the past, might have changed now as less demand due to FTA.

FTV is dying, FTA is the future, when C4 goes FTA in 2008 there won't be any reason for FTV.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

Now you're seriously clutching at straws. This is getting sadder by the minute. I'm very sorry to hear that you have difficulty mastering difficult things like eBay, aiming a dish in a certain well documented direction, operating a drill, and plugging in cables in sockets. I was perhaps hoping for more, but do please enjoy NTL. I think if you ask nicely, they will even put in the batteries in your NTL Digital remote control and show how to change the stations.

Insulting people is against the rules of boards. Also when you lower yourself to insult, you have already lost the argument.

It should be quiet clear that I have very good knowledge of all the subjects we are talking about and in fact I've setup a couple of FTA sats for family and friends. It is very simple, but the general public aren't techies like us and just don't understand these things.

Plus you have ignored most of the arguments I have made, time and time again I've proved you wrong, yet you continue with this tiresome tirade.

The last word is that NTL might not be the cheapest for all, but it is the cheapest and easiest option for most people.

And we can both agree that the more competition there is the better.

End of story.

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

Now you're seriously clutching at straws. This is getting sadder by the minute. <snip>.

That is what I was saying about being snide and not really making a point.

I didn't know that FTV was available in Ireland. I knew about Freeview on the east coast/boarder. I use VOIP and am more up on this stuff than anyone I know (excluding some of the people on these boards) and I would have no idea where to point a satellite dish for FTV. Yes I could research this and easily do it but can you really imagine the average Joe doing this kind of work???

That was a fine example of clutching at straws.

damien

bk wrote:

As I noted in another thread, Eircoms new DSL specs closely match NTL's products, coincidence? I don't think so.

You mean eircom are offering products like NTL's? Which are just like broadband products that everyone else offers around the world? Well except for that fact that the rest of the world have far superior and cheaper products. You're drinking the Koolaid too much.

I believe that we wouldn't be getting these higher speeds from Eircom if it wasn't for NTL and the FWA companies. They are the ones driving competition in the BB market.

Smart brought about speed increases last time, I doubt NTL factored at all. Digiweb and Magnet brought about speed increases this time, perhaps NTL had influence. Next the cure for malaria will be attributed to NTL. Bless them.

20% quarter on quarter (compared to 16% for DSL) and 233% year on year (compared to 194% for DSL).

Holyfck. We're quoting ComReg backpatting growth figures? These are the same bollox conspiratorial figures that eircom and ComReg both use to point out how we have high growth rates.

The growth rate compared to DSL is actually quite poor. They are nearly the same, yet if they want market share they'd want to be growing a hell of a lot faster than that or they'll not be gaining nowhere near as many customers year on year as eircom. 233% of a low figure is nowhere near as good as 194% of a figure 3-4 times larger.

What are the rates for canceling of dsl and moving to NTL? They're the only figures I'd trust. Who takes ComReg growth figures seriously in fairness?

Damien, I realise down in Cork with Crappy Chorus, all this talk of how cool NTL BB is seems to be a million miles away, but here in Dublin there is a real buzz about NTL as more and more people sign up and find how much better it is then DSL.

There's no real buzz except in some fanboy's heads. To quote from the ComReg figures you yourself quoted:

DSL remains the largest platform for broadband access, representing around 78% of subscriptions .. Cable broadband ... now represent nearly 9% of total broadband subscriptions.

Why if NTL is so mighty is their growth rate not 1000%? Why have they not taken a lot of the market from eircom? 78% of people with DSL. If they have "the majority" of Dublin and "all" of Waterford and Galway covered and they have such an amazing cheap product, then why are 78% of all connections still over a phoneline and why are eircom still ploughing ahead with broadband sign-ups. If NTL seems to have half the population covered then surely they should have more than 9% of the market?

Don't underestimate it.

No, I don't. I grasp reality when having to try and help people get broadband. NTL are not the new messiah. Their bull for the past few years is just like eircom's but because they are not eircom everyone seems to believe them. They, like eircom, are a business who make out they are all over Dublin and have great plans and are all over Galway and Waterford.

When I stop getting the usual daily emails from people wanting broadband and can recommend NTL if the person is in Dublin, Galway or Waterford then I might believe people. Right now I see them the way I see Magnet and Smart. Great product, little coverage and like eircom when it comes to manipulating availability figures.

cgarvey

Blaster99 wrote:

I'm very sorry to hear that you have difficulty mastering difficult things like eBay...

Another gem like this, Blaster99, will get you banned. bk/paulm17781 there are enough police around here, thank you, so in future just use the "report this post" function, rather than using it to try and build on your argument.

While we're wearing the cap. Freesat, to the best of my limited knowledge is not legally available in the Republic of Ireland, so it's pointless (and against the charter) to discuss it here.

Taking off the cap...

FTV lacks a lot of the channel line up pay-tv (be it Sky or NTL, who are very close), so that needs to be factored in as well, along with the varing call usage patterns that everyone is harping on about.

Also, while on the subject of underestimating: the value of brand recognition has to be recognised in these arguments. eircom are easily the worst value for many baskets (of calls, dialup net, bb net, etc.), yet they are miles ahead of all the competitors combined. It's "easier" to be with them. Even with my hatred of their tactics, I'm with them (yes me, of all people), because it's easier. I can't afford the downtime everyone expects me to suffer for a port transfer, or get wireless. Same applies to NTL. I know a lot of people who go with NTL over Sky, because they already had it.

NTL aren't all that in my book, simply because they've been promising me BB in different areas (i've been in many houses/apartments since, but all still can't get BB) for the last 5-6 years. eircom, or any other ISP for that matter, haven't. So, in my book, NTL are as bad as, if not worse than, eircom in terms of stalling rollout, until they absolutely had to.

Blaster99

cgarvey wrote:

Another gem like this, Blaster99, will get you banned.

It was good though, wasn't it? Seriously he walked into that one. Ban away by the way, couldn't care less. If you guys can't handle a bit of banter, I think you might need to lighten up a bit.

FTV is not illegal in Ireland. It's not sold in Ireland, but that doesn't make it illegal. There are lots of products that are not sold in Ireland. Importing them is not illegal.

I would have some pretty serious issues with the argument that because people don't know about a product or lack initial knowledge about it makes it an unviable alternative. I have already put some choice words to describe the quality of that argument. How many people can setup a VoIP router correctly, chosing the right dial plan, the right codec, etc? Just because it's reasonably difficult doesn't mean that's it not a viable alternative. And besides, I'm not Eddie Hobbs. I assume the reader has the ability to figure out some stuff, and if not, there's a satellite forum that can answer all the questions a lot better than I can. Indeed, this is not for your granny but perhaps she's not using Boards either? I haven't read the ever so important T&C's of this forum, but if it assumes a below average understanding of technical things I beg your pardon for trying highlight cheaper alternatives that might affect NTL's ability to continue to charge for free stuff. No what am I saying, I'm not sorry at all.

My point is simply, with a bit of cop on you can save yourself a lot of money by not using NTL. NTL tends to be presented as the golden choice when it comes to broadband and telephony. It is not if you know what you're doing.

bk, you have not proved me wrong on pricing. You've come up with a lot of fictional numbers on how much satellite stuff costs, but other than that not a lot. FTV may well be on the way out, but by 2008 you will have paid 24 * €30 and I will have paid €30.

Blaster99

damien.m wrote:

You're drinking the Koolaid too much.

Implying drinking problems is surely against the charter? And is Koolaid actually legally available in Ireland?

bk

damien.m wrote:

You mean eircom are offering products like NTL's? Which are just like broadband products that everyone else offers around the world? Well except for that fact that the rest of the world have far superior and cheaper products. You're drinking the Koolaid too much.

Interestingly we aren't really that far behind the rest of the world anymore, with Eircom upping to 3m it will actually be faster then BT in the UK at 2m, which is what most people in the UK have.

With the new Eircom prices and specs we really are about average with the rest of the world now. Sure there are some outstanding examples like Japan, but most countries don't have those speeds and they aren't really important for driving takeup, a low entry price point is.

I think what we need to focus on is, trying to improve competition in Ireland through improving the LLU process and ensuring that everyone in the country has access to at least one form of BB.

damien.m wrote:

Smart brought about speed increases last time, I doubt NTL factored at all. Digiweb and Magnet brought about speed increases this time, perhaps NTL had influence. Next the cure for malaria will be attributed to NTL. Bless them.

Last upgrades I agree, this time I do believe NTL had a big influnece, along with Digiweb and Magnet. The reality is NTL has more subscribers then Digiweb and Magnet put together and is also a greater risk to Eircom.

The reality is non of us know unless you work in Eircom upper management, but logically NTL is a much greater threat to Eircom.

damien.m wrote:

Holyfck. We're quoting ComReg backpatting growth figures? These are the same bollox conspiratorial figures that eircom and ComReg both use to point out how we have high growth rates.

While these figures were put together to make Comreg look good and they are PR BS. I assume that they are actually correct and are a valid way of comparing the relative uptake of DSL versus cable.

damien.m wrote:

The growth rate compared to DSL is actually quite poor. They are nearly the same, yet if they want market share they'd want to be growing a hell of a lot faster than that or they'll not be gaining nowhere near as many customers year on year as eircom. 233% of a low figure is nowhere near as good as 194% of a figure 3-4 times larger.

I agree, 2006 will be the make or break year for them, if they don't do it this year then they won't be a major threat.

Realistically if they play their cards right they can gain at least 25% of the total BB market. They will never beat DSL, due to wider avialability, but they can certainly be a major thorn in Eircoms side and that is good for all of us.

In order to grow take up rates they need to:
1) Complete the dublin rollout fast
2) Rollout the voice services.
3) Advertise nationally on TV, etc.

damien.m wrote:

What are the rates for canceling of dsl and moving to NTL? They're the only figures I'd trust. Who takes ComReg growth figures seriously in fairness?

No idea, almost impossible to tell, however lots of people here on boards have jumped from DSL to NTL (me included) but I have never heard of anyone going the other way (well maybe in D15). So that should at least tell you something about the quality of the service.

Actually people moving isn't so important at this stage in the market, the BB market is still imature in Ireland and still hasn't reached the mass market phase, it looks like 2006 will be the year for this. At this stage the most important action is to grab as large a chunk of the market as possible as it is much harder to steal customers then gain new customers.

damien.m wrote:

There's no real buzz except in some fanboy's heads. To quote from the ComReg figures you yourself quoted:

Ah come on now Damien, no need for that, we are only having a converstation.

BTW 9% isn't too bad for what is basically only one years work. But I agree they badly need to make use of it now and gain about 20 - 25% over the next 12 months.

damien.m wrote:

Why if NTL is so mighty is their growth rate not 1000%? Why have they not taken a lot of the market from eircom? 78% of people with DSL. If they have "the majority" of Dublin and "all" of Waterford and Galway covered and they have such an amazing cheap product, then why are 78% of all connections still over a phoneline and why are eircom still ploughing ahead with broadband sign-ups. If NTL seems to have half the population covered then surely they should have more than 9% of the market?

You are putting words in my mouth, I never said "half of the population" nor the "majority of Dublin", what I have said is exactly 155,300 homes as of November (probably closer to 200,000 by now) which is about 10 - 12% of the homes in Ireland or about 45% of NTL's total cable customers. So that puts them at about 1/10 of Eircoms DSL enabled lines, which would make 9% about right, if they enable the rest of their lines then they should be able to gain at least 20% without a major advertising campaign, etc. (but more if they do).

damien.m wrote:

No, I don't. I grasp reality when having to try and help people get broadband. NTL are not the new messiah. Their bull for the past few years is just like eircom's but because they are not eircom everyone seems to believe them. They, like eircom, are a business who make out they are all over Dublin and have great plans and are all over Galway and Waterford.

When I stop getting the usual daily emails from people wanting broadband and can recommend NTL if the person is in Dublin, Galway or Waterford then I might believe people. Right now I see them the way I see Magnet and Smart. Great product, little coverage and like eircom when it comes to manipulating availability figures.

I also often give people advise on who to sign up for, if they are in Dubln, Galway or Waterford, I usually say check with NTL first, if they aren't avialable try BT and then try Digiweb Metro. Many (but not all) have come back and said they got NTL and are now very happy.

You are of course right, they are a company out to make money and are no different then Eircom, Digiweb and all the others. However in my experience their products are of a better quality, at a price lower then Eircom and with a good customer service. So those of us who can avail of them are very happy and we cheer them on.

In the end competition is good. If NTL aren't successful then it will be bad for us all. If they are a success, then we all benefit from greater choice and competition.

Wouldn't it be great if we had a situation where cable had 25% of BB, LLU and FWA had another 25% and the bitstream companies another slice? That would really cut down on Eircoms monopoly and create a really competitive market here in Ireland.

cgarvey

Blaster99 wrote:

FTV is not illegal in Ireland. It's not sold in Ireland, but that doesn't make it illegal.

I know FTV is not illegal in Ireland. However I didn't say it was. I was talking about Freesat (which is very different to FTV). To obtain freesat in Rep of Ireland, you'll either have to impersonate an English entity (which I'm happy to consider as being illegal), or you'll have to cirumvent procedures in place to prevent the viewing of copyrighted material, in licensed areas. It was that bit I was unsure of, but I would have thought that, too, was illegal?

Blaster99 wrote:

I would have some pretty serious issues with the argument that because people don't know about a product or lack initial knowledge about it makes it an unviable alternative.

OK, so you're saying that the arguments on this thread are for the more technical competent Boards.ie posters only? Fair enough, I had taken them in the context of the general IoffL community, many of which wouldn't be, I'm sure you'll agree.

Blaster99 wrote:

I haven't read the ever so important T&C's of this forum... No what am I saying, I'm not sorry at all.

Fine don't bother doing as the moderators request and read the forum charter. Don't, however, think that because you're on the IoffL committee you'll be treated any differently. If anything you should be showing more respect than the average poster here, not violating the charter you couldn't be bothered reading.

Blaster99 wrote:

My point is simply...

And a good point you've made, and you've made well until you start insulting people.