Plate Recognition devices for Gardaí

Silvera

According to today's Sunday World, the Gardaí will take delivery of a new €6 million Plate Recognition System in 2006.

How the system works is -
Patrol cars are fitted with a device which scans the number plate of whatever vehicle is in front of the patrol car, and if the vehicle is not insured/taxed/NCT'd, etc a warning sound will activate within the patrol car and the car will be pulled over and the driver cautioned or fined.

It's been in use in the UK for a few years now.

I think that it's a great system as it will (should!) result in more rogue drivers been prosecuted.

At the end of the day, why should honest motorist's be subsidising drivers who don't tax, insure, or NCT their vehicles !!

KTRIC

All the more reason to have a proper EU reg plate on your vehicle.

BrianD3

I'd like to know how they're going to check insurance and NCT. Is there a central database available to the gardai giving details of what cars are and aren't insured. With the NCT, don't the NCTS use a separate database to the one used by the vehicle registration authority. Meaning that if you import a car, pay VRT, register it etc. you still have to fill in more forms before you can get it NCT'd.

IME the Gardai don't seem to be willing to enforce the law as it is so a new computerised system won't make a difference. Eg I have heard numerous reports of cars with no NCT, worn tyres, blown bulbs, unaccompanied provisional drivers etc. being stopped at Garda checkpoints yet nothing was said.

The new system will probably be a farce like everything else in this country.

BrianD3

If the system is to have any chance of working then there'll have to be a big change in the enforcement fo number plates regs. At the moment it really is farcical. Just look at the number of
-cars going around with dirty, illegible, broken, unlit, non-standard plates
-trucks and tractors with no number plates on the trailer
-cars towing trailers where the registration on the trailer is different to the reg on the car

The Gardai see these offences all the time and do nothing about it. in contrast, if you were doing any of the above in the UK you'd last about 5 minutes before being pulled over.

Stephen

The Gardaí do enforce the law with trucks and the like with no plates on the trailer, believe me, after working somewhere with a lot of haulage traffic, most of the drivers have gotten done for it at one time or another, and they are reluctant to leave without plates on the trailer.

Private cars/tractors, however, I agree with you there.

maidhc

At best, it is another way to keep honest people honest. TBH the Gardaí could be doing more useful things (like public order and investigating serious crime...). In fairness i think the gardaí are sensible about how they enforce the law.

I got stopped before because I had a blown bulb. Wasnt even aware of it. Garda told me go home and get it fixed. I went home, and got it fixed. I also had a slightly dodgy trailer before and was warned to get it sorted... and I did. At no time was I endangering anyone. Is that sort of enforcement not reasonable?

It is easy to get high and mighty about technical regulations, and totaly ignore the fundamental concept of road safety. Law is well and good, but it is dangerous if people think that by complying with certain regulations they are infallible.

The new system will probably be a farce like everything else in this country.

The system may well be a farce, but this is a fine country, not a perfect one, but a fine one nonetheless!

murphaph

maidhc wrote:

I got stopped before because I had a blown bulb. Wasnt even aware of it. Garda told me go home and get it fixed. I went home, and got it fixed. I also had a slightly dodgy trailer before and was warned to get it sorted... and I did. At no time was I endangering anyone. Is that sort of enforcement not reasonable?

That's exactly how I'd like to see the law enforced, but your experience was unusual. Normally the guards don't give a toss about little things like road traffic legislation unless it's a) speeding or b) drink driving-all the other myriad of offences seem to be ignored.

Tipsy Mac

Good idea and hopefully it will make everyone pay their way, driving with no insurance is insane, I strongly believe that all cars driving with no insurance should be seized and crushed with no exceptions.

Was watching a documentary on BBC a while back they have a system in London where a car can be followed around the whole city by the cameras they have on the streets logging the number plate, this was useful for following terrorist suspects and also checking cars had MOT/Tax/Insurance.

seamus

My brother thought of this five years ago. Feckin eejit should have made his money then

Good to hear it, though 2006 is a whole year, and we know how lax our Government are on getting off their asses.

Savman

Bleedin wasters. How much more money do they want to bleed from us?

I'd prefer if they spent the €6,000,000 to tackle anti-social behaviour, larceny, joyriding and the like.

I've seen enough to know there are certain areas of Dublin the Gardai don't patrol and people are left to fend for themselves against all kinds of intimidation and personal attacks.

I couldnt care less about stupid new systems to give out more fines for cars without tax or NCT, the whole thing screams "revenue" and it makes me sick:mad: :mad:

vasch_ro

Savman wrote:

I've seen enough to know there are certain areas of Dublin the Gardai don't patrol

name one area ........

MrPudding

Savman wrote:

Bleedin wasters. How much more money do they want to bleed from us?

Who are you talking about? Is it the uninsured drivers that bleed money from you through increase premiums? That is of course assuming that you have insurance.

I don't see how you can have a problem with this. Uninsured drivers cost law abiding drivers money. That is not in dispute.

I have an issue with the levels of road tax we pay here and the value for money we get for it. But at the end of the day the law says you need it so again I see no problem with what will be, operationally, a reasonably cheap and easy way to catch those that don't pay. Unlike insurance premiums, I don't expect road tax to be reduced as compliance increases.

As for NCT, again, it is the law and no doubt there are some very dangerous vehicles on the road that should not be there. If this system gets them off the roads and saves afew few lives then what is there to complain about?

That said, I will be surprised if they get all the systems talking to each other as they will need to in order for the system to work.

MrP

Savman

vasch_ro wrote:

name one area ........

Finglas, Ballymun, Darndale... I can go on.

Savman

MrPudding wrote:

Who are you talking about? Is it the uninsured drivers that bleed money from you through increase premiums? That is of course assuming that you have insurance.

Er, yes I do have insurance Officer, and iirc its the MIBI who payout in claims involving inunsured drivers, insurance companies wash their hands of it.

I do not condone uninsured driving but its not the solitary reason for high premiums, that is in fact caused primarily by the number of crashes/deaths on Irish roads.

I'm all for crack down on this stuff but it's not exactly high priority for €6m when the hospital situation is spiralling out of control. I just think the cash could be spent elsewhere.:rolleyes:

watsgone

Silvera wrote:

According to today's Sunday World, the Gardaí will take delivery of a new €6 million Plate Recognition System in 2006.

How the system works is -
Patrol cars are fitted with a device which scans the number plate of whatever vehicle is in front of the patrol car, and if the vehicle is not insured/taxed/NCT'd, etc a warning sound will activate within the patrol car and the car will be pulled over and the driver cautioned or fined.


I think that it's a great system as it will (should!) result in more rogue drivers been prosecuted.

Yes it sounds great, just one question what if the garda tries to pull over the car and this car decides to leg it(because its a stolen car or just plain stupidty)
Will the garda chase? It was in the newspapers and the news that the majority of garda have no driving training for these situations.
I would hate to hear of more fatalies because of the lack of training on the garda's side.

At the end of the day, why should honest motorist's be subsidising drivers who don't tax, insure, or NCT their vehicles !!

True, if it can help the honest motorist, it should be interesting to see how it works.

seamus

Savman wrote:

Er, yes I do have insurance Officer, and iirc its the MIBI who payout in claims involving inunsured drivers, insurance companies wash their hands of it.

5% (or something like that) of your premium funds the MIBI. Statistics are gleamed from all crashes, not just from ones involving insured drivers, and since it's safe to say that an uninsured driver is quite likely a dangerous driver, then their crashes cost a lot more, driving up everyone's premium.

Savman

seamus wrote:

5% (or something like that) of your premium funds the MIBI. Statistics are gleamed from all crashes, not just from ones involving insured drivers, and since it's safe to say that an uninsured driver is quite likely a dangerous driver, then their crashes cost a lot more, driving up everyone's premium.

So less crashes by uninsured drivers means the MIBI will be redundant? I don't think so, that's not an object of concern for me tbh 'cos it's not gonna drastically reduce anything in my premium.

The best way to deter uninsured driving is with heavy criminal charges and consequences, which I know for a fact are not pursued at present simply cos the powers that be couldnt be bothered.

More fines is not the solution, that just generates more money to be misused.

Tax = Revenue
Fines = Revenue
NCT = many say it was revenue driven

Another €6m gadget to make more money just doesnt provide any long-term solutions considering you have to be driving directly in front of a squad car to be caught

optiplexgx270

BrianD3 wrote:

If the system is to have any chance of working then there'll have to be a big change in the enforcement fo number plates regs. At the moment it really is farcical. Just look at the number of
-cars going around with dirty, illegible, broken, unlit, non-standard plates
-trucks and tractors with no number plates on the trailer
-cars towing trailers where the registration on the trailer is different to the reg on the car

The Gardai see these offences all the time and do nothing about it. in contrast, if you were doing any of the above in the UK you'd last about 5 minutes before being pulled over.

Hopefully the system will alery to those issues too.

Capt'n Midnight

BrianD3 wrote:

If the system is to have any chance of working then there'll have to be a big change in the enforcement fo number plates regs. At the moment it really is farcical. Just look at the number of
-cars going around with dirty, illegible, broken, unlit, non-standard plates
-trucks and tractors with no number plates on the trailer
-cars towing trailers where the registration on the trailer is different to the reg on the car

The Gardai see these offences all the time and do nothing about it. in contrast, if you were doing any of the above in the UK you'd last about 5 minutes before being pulled over.

Gotta agree.
[broken record]all they have to do is check cars on the exit ramps of the M50, there would be no delay since the traffic is already stationery, better still at a park and ride facility so they can impound cars and force people to procede public transport until they get produce a valid license or whatever[/broken record]

seamus

Savman wrote:

So less crashes by uninsured drivers means the MIBI will be redundant? I don't think so, that's not an object of concern for me tbh 'cos it's not gonna drastically reduce anything in my premium.

Not redundant, but by its very nature the MIBI is non-profit. So if the 5% is more than is required, it forces a reduction of premiums across the board.

The best way to deter uninsured driving is with heavy criminal charges and consequences, which I know for a fact are not pursued at present simply cos the powers that be couldnt be bothered.

But the consequences are already quite steep, and I certainly wouldn't risk it on the off-chance that "they won't pursue it". Anyone I've heard of being caught for motoring offences recently has been charged and convicted. A while back I did believe that a lifetime driving ban was the only solution for criminal motoring offences, but I don't think it's an ideal solution. It flies in the face of the notion of rehabilitation of criminals.

This discussion has gone on so many times before. The system is sufficient, the penalties are sufficient. The problem is enforcement & detection. You can make up all the laws you want, and increase penalties through the roof, but the people who break the laws will continue to do so until they think there's a chance of actually being caught.

optiplexgx270

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Gotta agree.
[broken record]all they have to do is check cars on the exit ramps of the M50, there would be no delay since the traffic is already stationery, better still at a park and ride facility so they can impound cars and force people to procede public transport until they get produce a valid license or whatever[/broken record]

And the new dundrum town center already have the technology in place great idea impound the cars in the centre

ecodub

BrianD3 wrote:

If the system is to have any chance of working then there'll have to be a big change in the enforcement fo number plates regs. At the moment it really is farcical. Just look at the number of
-cars going around with dirty, illegible, broken, unlit, non-standard plates
-trucks and tractors with no number plates on the trailer
-cars towing trailers where the registration on the trailer is different to the reg on the car

The Gardai see these offences all the time and do nothing about it. in contrast, if you were doing any of the above in the UK you'd last about 5 minutes before being pulled over.

Your dead right, if the Gardai can't control the above list - why waste money on this new system.

murphaph

Savman wrote:

Tax = Revenue

True.

Savman wrote:

Fines = Revenue

And a cheaper (to the taxpayer) alternative to financial penalties for law-breaking would be what exactly? We already have some of the highest rates of custodial sentencing in Europe. That is a very, very expensive way of dealing with minor crime.

Savman wrote:

NCT = many say it was revenue driven

Well I guess many were wrong because it was actually driven by an EU directive, as was driver theory testing.

Savman wrote:

Another €6m gadget to make more money just doesnt provide any long-term solutions considering you have to be driving directly in front of a squad car to be caught

The advantage of this passive system is clearly lost on you. The Gardai don't have to stand at the roadside doing random T&I checks with a system like this in place, they simply drive around and the computer tells them the random (there's that word again!) car in front is dodgy and they can pull it over and have a chat. This type of technology will finally make our Garda Traffic Corps begin to catch up with the far superior road traffic policing evident just over the border! It will of course require the GTC to be well versed on road traffic legislation and so on. The amount of Gardai that are ignorant of basic road traffic legislation is quite shocking at present.

Capt'n Midnight

Maybe the Guards could pull over people whose plates are not recognised by the OCR technology. No database or link to database needed. And if the plate is recognised once cleaned then it proves the technology is working. If the plate is not recognised when cleaned then the Guards check if it's using funny fonts etc.

maidhc

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Maybe the Guards could pull over people whose plates are not recognised by the OCR technology. No database or link to database needed. And if the plate is recognised once cleaned then it proves the technology is working. If the plate is not recognised when cleaned then the Guards check if it's using funny fonts etc.

What exactly is the point of that? Cant they just use their eyes to do the same thing?

optiplexgx270

maidhc wrote:

What exactly is the point of that? Cant they just use their eyes to do the same thing?

but that would involve brainpower just kidding

gearbox

Silvera wrote:

At the end of the day, why should honest motorist's be subsidising drivers who don't tax, insure, or NCT their vehicles !!

Only thing is with the help of this new system there not gonna have our premiums reduced why would they everything is going to stay the same, yeah the deterant will be there but we still gonna pay through the nose

mackerski

I think that this is an excellent idea, and for a reason not yet mentioned: it would remove the requirement to have three independent pieces of paper cluttering the windscreen, each separately proving a different kind of legal compliance. Viva convergence!

Dermot

Silvera

The current system for prosecuting offenders for road traffic offences is a bit crazy.

I spoke with a Sergeant in the Traffic Corps and he said he is 'blue in the face' (pardon the pun:)) writing to Garda HQ seeking an on-the-spot fine system for trucks/tractors/etc with no rear number plates.
Currently if a Garda decides to prosecute for this offence he has to go through a ream of paperwork AND attend court to see the prosecution through !

A simple on-the-spot fine for most traffic offences should be in place (with the option to attend court - and face a larger fine if you decide to do so) rather than having overworked/understaffed Gardai attending court for such simple matters.

Savman

Silvera wrote:

Currently if a Garda decides to prosecute for this offence he has to go through a ream of paperwork AND attend court to see the prosecution through !

Poor fella :rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

Savman wrote:

Poor fella :rolleyes:

My heart bleeds for the poor little piggies!

HashSlinging

BrianD3 wrote:

. Eg I have heard numerous reports of cars with no NCT, worn tyres, blown bulbs, unaccompanied provisional drivers etc. being stopped at Garda checkpoints yet nothing was said.

The new system will probably be a farce like everything else in this country.

I'm just back from westport where I was for the christmas break, some of the yokes driving around down there are unbelivable, seen one corsa with both yes both indicator/stop/reverse/hazzard/fog/reflector units gone with plastic bags over them.. owner probably scared water might rust the car... this thing was in bits.

unkel

mackerski wrote:

I think that this is an excellent idea, and for a reason not yet mentioned: it would remove the requirement to have three independent pieces of paper cluttering the windscreen, each separately proving a different kind of legal compliance. Viva convergence!

Hail! And no need for any more silly time wasting roadblocks with Gardai pointing a torch first at the driver and then at those pieces of paper. Until random breath testing is put in place that is

watsgone wrote:

the majority of garda have no driving training for these situations.
I would hate to hear of more fatalies because of the lack of training on the garda's side

I know this is true. A very serious issue imho. ATM Gardai driving patrol / unmarked cars that have not done the course (the majority) get dispensation from their superintendant. This dispensation is typically withdrawn after one or more serious crashes by said driver, but surely it should work the other way around, i.e. no driving until the course has been succesfully completed

Litcagral

unkel wrote:

I know this is true. A very serious issue imho. ATM Gardai driving patrol / unmarked cars that have not done the course (the majority) get dispensation from their superintendant. This dispensation is typically withdrawn after one or more serious crashes by said driver, but surely it should work the other way around, i.e. no driving until the course has been succesfully completed

AFAIK if a Garda does the advanced driving course and fails, they are never allowed to drive Garda vehicles again. That is why so few put themselves forward for it.

Savman

Bond-007 wrote:

My heart bleeds for the poor little piggies!

unkel

Litcagral wrote:

AFAIK if a Garda does the advanced driving course and fails, they are never allowed to drive Garda vehicles again. That is why so few put themselves forward for it.

That's new to me. I thought it was a resources issue, i.e. Gardai put themselves forward for it alright, but there are only a few places on the course

I'll research and post back on this

Boggle

Silvera wrote:

with the option to attend court - and face a larger fine if you decide to do so

Sorry mate but I prefer to have the right to defend myself in court without fear of reprisal (i.e. extra punishment for "daring" to defend myself against the almighty gardai).

It's really frustrating when I see people coming out with offhand little statements like yours...

Ratchet

Silvera wrote:

According to today's Sunday World, the Gardaí will take delivery of a new €6 million Plate Recognition System in 2006.

How the system works is -
Patrol cars are fitted with a device which scans the number plate of whatever vehicle is in front of the patrol car, and if the vehicle is not insured/taxed/NCT'd, etc a warning sound will activate within the patrol car and the car will be pulled over and the driver cautioned or fined.

also there is bunch of cameras installed all over the place specially for this system. e.g. oposite to Tesco ClareHall. These will monitor moving traffic.

blastman

Re all the talk about having cameras watching you: are we sure we really want to go down this road? I for one wouldn't like to live in a country where you are constantly watched when you go out in public.

Capt'n Midnight

blastman wrote:

Re all the talk about having cameras watching you: are we sure we really want to go down this road? I for one wouldn't like to live in a country where you are constantly watched when you go out in public.

move to London then.
point being it's already happened, private security cameras are everewhere and some are being shared to the public

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/30/shoreditch_digital_bridge/

Alongside video on demand TV services from Homechoice, the SDB will offer a "Community Safety Channel" which will allow residents "to monitor estate CCTV cameras from their own living rooms, view a 'Usual Suspects' ASBO line up, and receive live community safety alerts."

MrPudding

Boggle wrote:

Sorry mate but I prefer to have the right to defend myself in court without fear of reprisal (i.e. extra punishment for "daring" to defend myself against the almighty gardai).

There is no reprisal. It is quite similar to getting on the bus actually. When you get on the bus you buy a ticket. You get a huge discount. If you get on wothout a ticket you pay the standard fair. €25 or something.

It is the same with traffic offenses. If you say "it's a fair cop, I was speeding" and take you oil you get a smallish fine and 2 penalty points. This is with the discount. If you chose to fight it and lose you get the "full fare."

I understand it is symantics really but you are not getting extra punishment for going to court, you are just getting the normal punishment without the discount.

MrP

Hagar

The plate is on the left, the cutlery is on the right.

I just couldn't resist it, I'll get me coat [IMG]http://members.boards.ie/hagar/I'll get me coat.gif[/IMG]

Our man in Havana

Hagar wrote:

The plate is on the left, the cutlery is on the right.

I just couldn't resist it, I'll get me coat [IMG]http://members.boards.ie/hagar/I'll get me coat.gif[/IMG]

Roffle! Well Done!

vasch_ro

unkel wrote:

I know this is true. A very serious issue imho. ATM Gardai driving patrol / unmarked cars that have not done the course (the majority) get dispensation from their superintendant. This dispensation is typically withdrawn after one or more serious crashes by said driver, but surely it should work the other way around, i.e. no driving until the course has been succesfully completed

actually its chief Superintendent authorisation, hence the Garda slang driving on "chiefs"

vasch_ro

Litcagral wrote:

AFAIK if a Garda does the advanced driving course and fails, they are never allowed to drive Garda vehicles again. That is why so few put themselves forward for it.

not quite true... just to clarify there are three types of course
The Standard Driving Course (suitable for ordinary policing duties)
The advance Driving Course (u must have passed the standard course to be eligible for this course, generally only specialist units(ie Traffic, ERU etc ) and Ministerial pool do this course.
Instructors course (if u want to teach the above 2 courses !!)
Hope this helps the thread even if it is slightly off topic:)

murphaph

Boggle wrote:

Sorry mate but I prefer to have the right to defend myself in court without fear of reprisal (i.e. extra punishment for "daring" to defend myself against the almighty gardai).

Huh? If you're accused of murder and you plead guilty you'll also receive a reduced sentence. What's the difference?

Boggle

Huh? If you're accused of murder and you plead guilty you'll also receive a reduced sentence. What's the difference?

Murder carries a mandatory life sentence.

From http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A02CF/vWeb/pcJUSQ5XUD5V-ga

Mandatory sentencing.
The traditional approach to sentencing is for the Oireachtas to lay down the maximum penalty. A court, having considered all the circumstances of the case, may then impose an appropriate penalty up to that maximum. This approach reflects the doctrine of the separation of powers. The Legislature lays down the possible punishment range but it is for the Courts to decide the punishment taking account of all the circumstances of the case and of the offender.

The problem I have with the points system is that there is no disretion allowed. It is cut and dried: plead guilty(easy on the state - no burden of proof) and get 2 points or defend yourself and risk 4. No accounting for circumstances, no judges discretion. The reality of the matter is that innocent people just accept the points as they are afraid to risk the 4 on a case thats always difficult to prove your innocence in.

That my friend is just plain wrong and ,dare I say it,... unconstitutional.

When you get on the bus you buy a ticket. You get a huge discount. If you get on wothout a ticket you pay the standard fair. €25 or something.

The 25 quid is a fine for not paying your fare. You might want a better argument....

seamus

Boggle wrote:

The 25 quid is a fine for not paying your fare. You might want a better argument....

Nope. €25 is the "Standard Fare". At a guess, I would say Dublin Bus or its conductors do not have the authority to issue fines. By issuing a "discount" to people who buy a ticket, they can insist that those without, pay the "Standard Fare".

You may call it semantics, but you'd surprised how many laws and/or rights which we take for granted are balanced on finely-worded documents.

blastman

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

move to London then.
point being it's already happened, private security cameras are everewhere and some are being shared to the public

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/30/shoreditch_digital_bridge/

Umm, that's exactly why I won't be moving to London any time soon.

George Orwell's vision is finally coming true (mixed in with Huxley's).

Boggle

Nope. €25 is the "Standard Fare". At a guess, I would say Dublin Bus or its conductors do not have the authority to issue fines. By issuing a "discount" to people who buy a ticket, they can insist that those without, pay the "Standard Fare".

You may call it semantics, but you'd surprised how many laws and/or rights which we take for granted are balanced on finely-worded documents.

So first you state that the bus drivers have no authority to issue fines and then you continue to use the example of a "pricing" system as an analogy to a law.

(Can't be sure but I think you may find that (if its anything like London) then there is actually a specially draughted law allowing them to issue fines... not that its here nor there...)

move to London then.
point being it's already happened, private security cameras are everewhere and some are being shared to the public

They have posters on the tubes over here and they're kinda freaky... They state "Watching you 24/7" then "For your protection"... cos its 2 steps shy of being a police state more like!!

seamus

Boggle wrote:

So first you state that the bus drivers have no authority to issue fines and then you continue to use the example of a "pricing" system as an analogy to a law.

Actually I was using the example to demonstrate how something can be legal (or in the case of speeding fines, consitutional) simply by carefully wording the policy/bye-law/agreement.

(Can't be sure but I think you may find that (if its anything like London) then there is actually a specially draughted law allowing them to issue fines... not that its here nor there...)

Well, that why I said "At a guess"; It's not something that I've researched in depth. As best I understand it, you get a discount for buying a ticket when you board, or you can pay the standard fare. If you fail to pay the standard fare, Dublin Bus may prosecute you (which is where the warnings of jail time and €500 fines come in).