Irish Times or Irish Independent

santosubito

I'm interested that people see to be plumping for the Irish Times.
Assuming that people value its news content (it is a newspaper, after all) can anyone say what major stories the IT broke this year? Offhand, I can't.
I think the Independent (which I don't work for) was a much better paper this year, especially for hard news. Just look at the Frank Connolly story, for example.
I have to say, sadly, that standards have slipped in the IT over the last few years - the number of mistakes is on the increase and it is poorly subbed.

monument

I would think it is obvious.

The Indo is continuing to mark it self with more redtop-like sensationalism. Continuing to mark it self as a right wing paper, rather then centralist. And to be blunt, it is continuing on the road downmarket.

This isn’t to say the IT hasn’t problems. It has huge problems, of which there is a perception that the IT wont even admitted to problems, or that they don’t think there is any – one of their problems, they are a little too old-school ‘we are always right’, a little too closed.

The IT is also seen as going too right wing, partly sorted out by losing one of their ranters recently – which was nice, but far too behind closed doors for my likings. They also have to modernise (like the Guardian, not the Indo), in both format and content, while maybe just slightly changing hard news. And they have to do this in the way not to upset the old folks.

The IT’s ‘the Ticket’ looks as if it is billed and advertised to be a beckon of new to drag in a younger reader ship. But why is it missing coverage of the newest medium of entertainment/arts - computer games? (maybe, as someone who writes about games, I’m a bit biased it that area).

Breaking stories is one thing, one-thing journalists and editors of daily papers may think too much of. Why people prefer the IT’s hard news would most likely be down to style

whiskeyman

santosubito wrote:

I think the Independent (which I don't work for) was a much better paper this year, especially for hard news. Just look at the Frank Connolly story, for example.

The handling of Liam Lawlors death ("Red light and with protitute") and the verdict on the O'Donoughue trial ("Child Killer") was abysmal by the Indo.
Two huge black marks against them IMO and I know many who vow never to buy the paper again because of these alone.

You may say the standards have slipped for the IT, but they are nowhere as low as the Indo stooped this year.

santosubito

whiskeyman wrote:

The handling of Liam Lawlors death ("Red light and with protitute") and the verdict on the O'Donoughue trial ("Child Killer") was abysmal by the Indo.
Two huge black marks against them IMO and I know many who vow never to buy the paper again because of these alone.

You may say the standards have slipped for the IT, but they are nowhere as low as the Indo stooped this year.

It was the Sunday Indo that wrote that headline about Lawlor, not the Indo.

Secondly, Wayne O'Donoghue IS a child killer.

The Indo kicks the IT's ass every day with news: news is, of course, a prerequisite for any good newspaper.

monument

"The Indo kicks the IT's ass every day with news"

Go Indo! Go Indo! It’s a pity it’s a rag.

santosubito

A rag? Please expand.

I notice no-one has still come up with one single story the IT broke this year, by the way.

flogen

I've split these posts away from the awards nominations category because they aren't fit for that thread.

Just to give my two cents on the matter, while the Irish Times may not have broken as many stories as the Indo (if it has broken any), I still avoid the Indo at all costs. I would rather read an account of an existing story by the good (although perhaps not great) journalism than a new one by the trash that comes into the Indo.
O'Donoughue for example, may have killed a child but only a trashy newspaper would use such crass language, I'd expect it from The Sun, not The Indo.

It's obvious, however that your opinion of good news is different to mine. The Independent may have broken more stories but it's quality of journalism has plumetted over the last few years. I used to be a fan, I can't read it anymore though.

seansean

The only stories the Indo seems to break is about the Gardai. Journalist Tom Brady the Gatdais unofficial press office runs with anything the boys in blue want published. Isnt there some sort of law about the Gardai leaking stories Tom ??? O and lately the Indos recent scoop about Frank Connolly and that passport application, turns out the journalist concerned Sam Smyth is a drinking buddy of none other that Michael Mc Dowell himself. Go Indo Go.....

flogen

seansean wrote:

The only stories the Indo seems to break is about the Gardai. Journalist Tom Brady the Gatdais unofficial press office runs with anything the boys in blue want published. Isnt there some sort of law about the Gardai leaking stories Tom ??? O and lately the Indos recent scoop about Frank Connolly and that passport application, turns out the journalist concerned Sam Smyth is a drinking buddy of none other that Michael Mc Dowell himself. Go Indo Go.....

Well, without getting into the Connolly/McDowell issue (which has already been discussed at length in a more suitable forum), you can't blame a Journalist for having sources, Smyths was just made public, usually they're not.

As for the Gardai thing, if the storys are bias in favour of the Gardai then that's something that should be looked at, however if the Gardai are leaking unfavourable information about politicians or the government, there's very little the government can do except find the leak, get a good responce or else keep the Gardai happy

jrey1981

The right-leanings of the Irish Indy are even more apparent when compared to the London Indy.

I am torn between the IT and the Indy, in all honesty. If I was buying papers myself, I would probably weigh it up each day by flicking through the content of each if I had the chance.

santosubito

seansean wrote:

The only stories the Indo seems to break is about the Gardai. Journalist Tom Brady the Gatdais unofficial press office runs with anything the boys in blue want published. Isnt there some sort of law about the Gardai leaking stories Tom ??? O and lately the Indos recent scoop about Frank Connolly and that passport application, turns out the journalist concerned Sam Smyth is a drinking buddy of none other that Michael Mc Dowell himself. Go Indo Go.....

Really? Perhaps you can explain why it was the Irish Times that reported that Frank Connolly was convicted of riotous behaviour and was arrested about a "serious incident" in 1981. Thus:

"The Department of Justice also provided details to Atlantic Philanthropies of a June 1983 conviction against Mr Connolly where he received a two-year suspended sentence at the Special Criminal Court after pleading guilty in relation to a H-block riot in July 1981. He was also ordered to pay £250 into the Garda Benevolent Fund."

and:

"At the September meeting with Mr Feeney, Mr McDowell claimed that Mr Connolly had been involved in Revolutionary Struggle, a Marxist organisation dominated by students, which was active in Dublin in the late 1970s.

No charges were ever brought in relation to the alleged serious incident in the Garda files, but a number of students and activists were arrested and questioned at the time.
Mr Connolly did not return telephone calls from The Irish Times last night. The Department of Justice also declined to comment on details of the September meeting, stating it was private."

(Both Irish Times, December 19)

Wonder where they got their information?

Go Irish Times, go.

In the real world, any reporter worth his or her salt would have written what Sam Smyth did. If they had the contacts.

A Dub in Glasgo

I suppose it is easy to be a puppet of one governement or another

Eurorunner

santosubito wrote:

I'm interested that people see to be plumping for the Irish Times.
Assuming that people value its news content (it is a newspaper, after all) can anyone say what major stories the IT broke this year? Offhand, I can't.
I think the Independent (which I don't work for) was a much better paper this year, especially for hard news. Just look at the Frank Connolly story, for example.
I have to say, sadly, that standards have slipped in the IT over the last few years - the number of mistakes is on the increase and it is poorly subbed.

You mean theres a comparison?

I'm not necessarily the IT's biggest fan or anything but unlike the Indo, its not a complete rag. The aim of any source of media is that it should be fair and balanced in its reporting. In reality, its just a case of to what degree newspapers/tv, etc are not balanced.

As regards breaking 'big stories', is that what good journalism is about? The Liam Lawlor story springs to mind.

The Independent is a rag - plain and simple.

santosubito

Eurorunner wrote:

As regards breaking 'big stories', is that what good journalism is about? The Liam Lawlor story springs to mind.

The Independent is a rag - plain and simple.

I always find it funny when people say something is plain and simple. This is the second time somebody has said the Indo is a rag without explaining why they think that. Why don't you try and put forward an argument backing up your argument, instead of saying "plain and simple".

By the way, I don't think Brendan Keenan, Robert Fisk, David McKittrick, John Walshe, Miriam Lord, et al would consider working for a rag.

It's also the second time someone has referred to the Liam Lawlor story as being written by the Indo, when it was the Sunday Indo.

santosubito

Eurorunner wrote:

As regards breaking 'big stories', is that what good journalism is about?

It's an integral part of it. And it's something the Irish Times is consistently poor at.

flogen

Personally I would say the Indo has become too much like a tabloid in its writing style and choice of stories (it covers soft news like celeb stories a lot, although the Sindo is far worse). I'm not just saying that because they changed format, that has nothing to do with editorial policy.
I was also turned off by a few of their moves, like one edition which featured half a front page about their sales figures (when there was so much more going on in the world), or the story of the Middleton death last year where they featured details of the boys death and beside it had the byline and the journalists smiling picture.
It may not be a rag, but it's not of a high enough standard for my tastes

whiskeyman

Eurorunner wrote:

As regards breaking 'big stories', is that what good journalism is about?

santosubito wrote:

It's an integral part of it. And it's something the Irish Times is consistently poor at.

Big difference in breaking big stories and reporting on them IMO, and this is where I see the gap between the two.

santosubito

flogen wrote:

It may not be a rag, but it's not of a high enough standard for my tastes

Fair play, but I'd like to hear you say that when you finish college and are looking for a job!

santosubito

whiskeyman wrote:

Big difference in breaking big stories and reporting on them IMO, and this is where I see the gap between the two.

I think you're right about that. The Indo has far better reporters.

whiskeyman

santosubito wrote:

The Indo has far better reporters.

In your opinion....

flogen

santosubito wrote:

Fair play, but I'd like to hear you say that when you finish college and are looking for a job!

Well if I was writing for it I could be part of the solution trying to raise the bar again!

I've gone on record on this forum criticising places like Sky News, but I also know how hard it is to get your first foot on the ladder in Journalism and wouldn't be so stupid to turn down a job there. I would see it as a stepping stone, however and nothing more.

santosubito

flogen wrote:

I would see it as a stepping stone, however and nothing more.

Flogen, you're going to look back on these posts when you're working and cringe.

A stepping stone? You mean to the Irish Times, RTE, The Washington Post?

1. People rarely go from the Indo to the IT - or vice versa.
2. The Indo pays much, much more than the Times.
3. Anyone who regards Ireland's top selling newspaper - the most influential as well, it could be argued - as a stepping stone is living in cloud cuckoo land. People toil for years to try to get into that paper, and you call it a stepping stone. I don't think you fully grasp how hard it is to make it in journalism.
Believe me, any young journalist who gets offered a job in the Indo would be cock a hoop with joy.

flogen

santosubito wrote:

Flogen, you're going to look back on these posts when you're working and cringe.

A stepping stone? You mean to the Irish Times, RTE, The Washington Post?

1. People rarely go from the Indo to the IT - or vice versa.
2. The Indo pays much, much more than the Times.
3. Anyone who regards Ireland's top selling newspaper - the most influential as well, it could be argued - as a stepping stone is living in cloud cuckoo land. People toil for years to try to get into that paper, and you call it a stepping stone. I don't think you fully grasp how hard it is to make it in journalism.
Believe me, any young journalist who gets offered a job in the Indo would be cock a hoop with joy.

When did I say it was going to be a stepping stone from one newspaper to another? I meant from where I was to where I wanted to be; in other words working in a certain field in a newspaper and seeing it as a stepping stone into the field I want to be in.
I also do understand how hard it is to get into journalism and would be delighted to get a job in the indo, when did I say otherwise?
I can't argue with your point about the money each offers, I don't know how they shape up in that respect and to be honest it's not something that concerns me, I want to get into journalism, I'm not going to be waiting around for a big pay cheque.

Now, if you don't mind this thread is about peoples preferences regarding Irish newspapers, not my career plans and prospects.

zenith

santosubito wrote:

By the way, I don't think Brendan Keenan, Robert Fisk, David McKittrick, John Walshe, Miriam Lord, et al would consider working for a rag.

Robert Fisk and David McKittrick work for the London Independent. Just so that's clear. Their copy's syndicated within the group. (Fisk's main Dublin connections are to the Irish Times and Lara Marlowe - they're married).

So, little or no reflected glory there.

Miriam Lord: A colour writer not to my taste, and John Walshe and Brendan Keenan, fair enough. Maybe they're only in it for the money though - a point you've made as somehow being pertinent to journalism's quality.

But Aengus Fanning, Anne Harris, Mary Ellen Synon, Terry Keane? There's something rotten there, and they're not role models for any journalism student.

And I know they're all Sindo. And I've seen the good guys' bylines in there too. So maybe they do work for a rag. Just not the one that you're defending.

zenith

santosubito wrote:

Believe me, any young journalist who gets offered a job in the Indo would be cock a hoop with joy.

Until the first time their copy was improved to suit the proprietor's agenda.

santosubito

zenith wrote:

Robert Fisk and David McKittrick work for the London Independent. Just so that's clear. Their copy's syndicated within the group. (Fisk's main Dublin connections are to the Irish Times and Lara Marlowe - they're married).

So, little or no reflected glory there.

Miriam Lord: A colour writer not to my taste, and John Walshe and Brendan Keenan, fair enough. Maybe they're only in it for the money though - a point you've made as somehow being pertinent to journalism's quality.

But Aengus Fanning, Anne Harris, Mary Ellen Synon, Terry Keane? There's something rotten there, and they're not role models for any journalism student.

And I know they're all Sindo. And I've seen the good guys' bylines in there too. So maybe they do work for a rag. Just not the one that you're defending.

Lara Marlowe and Robert Fisk are no longer married, so he has no links to the Times, I'm afraid. His copy certainly doesn't appear in the Irish Times. If you do an archive search, which I did, you'll see that the only references to him are stories about him, not by him. He also does specials for the Indo, which are not syndicated.
What's your point in mentioning all those Sunday Indo heads? (By the way, Mary Ellen Synon works for Ireland on Sunday now and Terry Keane's last employer was the Sunday Times).
I'm talking about the daily, not the Sunday version. There is a huge difference. Maybe we'd agree that the Sindo is pure ****e. Nothing but fatuous comment pieces and drivel.
In it for the money? I don't think any reporter is in it for the money per se. But if you can get 50k working for The Times or 75K in the Indo, which would you choose?
My main point is this: I don't believe the Indo is a rag and I've explained why I believe it is a good paper. I'm just disappionted that people are throwing around such sobriquets as rag without anyone having the gumption to back it up.

santosubito

zenith wrote:

Until the first time their copy was improved to suit the proprietor's agenda.

Good to see you are happy to believe the word of a British diplomat from 30 years ago who relied on a single source. Next you'll be telling me Saddam Hussein had WMDs. I certainly know plenty of hacks in the Indo and they've never, ever had copy spiked for such reasons. They have for legal reasons, of course, but haven't we all.

santosubito

flogen wrote:

When did I say it was going to be a stepping stone from one newspaper to another? I meant from where I was to where I wanted to be; in other words working in a certain field in a newspaper and seeing it as a stepping stone into the field I want to be in.
I also do understand how hard it is to get into journalism and would be delighted to get a job in the indo, when did I say otherwise?

Well, to be fair, there aren't many specialist fields that aren't covered by the Indo.
The Times, on the other hand, has six or seven pol corrs, an equestrian correspondent and plenty of health reporters - but it doesn't even have a crime corr. Crime must be a working class thing.

zenith

santosubito wrote:

Good to see you are happy to believe the word of a British diplomat from 30 years ago who relied on a single source. Next you'll be telling me Saddam Hussein had WMDs. I certainly know plenty of hacks in the Indo and they've never, ever had copy spiked for such reasons. They have for legal reasons, of course, but haven't we all.

Don't know Justine McCarthy?

santosubito

zenith wrote:

Don't know Justine McCarthy?

I do, actually. Not very well as I don't work in the Indo, but I've met her a few times. She's a very nice woman anmd a great writer.

I thought you were going to go down that road, which is why I added the caveat about stories being spiked for legal reasons.

The truth is her story and Gerry Flynn's piece were both dropped for legal reasons.

Because of the Sindo's ridiculous Lawlor story, executives in all the natinal medai are very windy about legals. At the minute they are going out of their way to be over cautious.

You have to bear in mind that Indo executives believe the Julia Kushnir story is going to cost them €1 million.

There's always a rational explanation to any conspiracy theory.

zenith

santosubito wrote:

My main point is this: I don't believe the Indo is a rag and I've explained why I believe it is a good paper.

I don't believe it's a rag either, but I'd not go so far as to say it's a good paper. For most values of good.

I believe your original point with which I have issue was that good journalists don't work for a rag. The Group Business Editor, for example, certainly has as part of his remit the Sunday Indo. Ergo, good journalists do. Syndicated or not.

And I'd not be so sure that the money was all that great there either. With declining circulation, and the failure of the tabloid to put the broadsheet to death convincingly, it seems the works council has much to dwell on.

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=10&aid=866
<- This Village Magazine article is also of interest.

I'd also like to reference various bullying and anger management stories: maybe the uplift is danger money? Can you prove the differential you're suggesting exists?

zenith

santosubito wrote:

Because of the Sindo's ridiculous Lawlor story, executives in all the natinal medai are very windy about legals. At the minute they are going out of their way to be over cautious.

I disagree. I think that cynical sparring over the press council has more to do with this.

Remember, the Indo had to be brought to the European Court of Human Rights for closure on de Rossa.

I think that Julia Kushnir, who does not have a reputation to defend in an Irish court, is going to be unable to fund a European jaunt with a loophole that big.

And if they don't defend it, it's hush money, and equally shameful.

santosubito

zenith wrote:

I disagree. I think that cynical sparring over the press council has more to do with this.

Remember, the Indo had to be brought to the European Court of Human Rights for closure on de Rossa.

I think that Julia Kushnir, who does not have a reputation to defend in an Irish court, is going to be unable to fund a European jaunt with a loophole that big.

And if they don't defend it, it's hush money, and equally shameful.

I disagree.

Mrs Kushnir works with dozens of Irish business people in Prague, she can easily claim that her reputation has been damaged in Ireland.

santosubito

zenith wrote:

I don't believe it's a rag either, but I'd not go so far as to say it's a good paper. For most values of good.

I believe your original point with which I have issue was that good journalists don't work for a rag. The Group Business Editor, for example, certainly has as part of his remit the Sunday Indo. Ergo, good journalists do. Syndicated or not.

And I'd not be so sure that the money was all that great there either. With declining circulation, and the failure of the tabloid to put the broadsheet to death convincingly, it seems the works council has much to dwell on.

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=10&aid=866
<- This Village Magazine article is also of interest.

I'd also like to reference various bullying and anger management stories: maybe the uplift is danger money? Can you prove the differential you're suggesting exists?

Of course it's not danger money. They just pay better. Also, there seems to be bullying in every newspaper in Ireland.
At least the Indo allow a union in the door unlike, for example, Associated Newspapers. And if you want to talk about bullying, speak to anyone who has had the pleasure of working for IoS.

irishguy

If i was buying i would get the IT, as i find the articles are written better (but i read the Independent most days as it’s always in the house). I think the Independent is turning into a bit of a tabloid with some of the stories it runs.
Also their website is quite poor on the other hand the IT website is very good with some great features.

Blackjack

Irish Times, without question. The Indo has changed style over the years so it's now no better than a tabloid as regards its reporting style.

I rarely if ever read it, and the last time I did I rued the part of my life I'd wasted doing so.

As for the Sunday Indo, that's really a whole pile of bile. The last time I had the misfortune of reading it (got it Free on an Aer Arann flight) all I really could glean from it was it's plugging it's own sales figures and slagging off other papers - without really giving any news.

Dellgirl

[PHP]I think the Independent (which I don't work for)[/PHP]

Youre very passionate about the paper you dont work for. you should get a job there. You'd be a very loyal employee by the looks of it.

santosubito

Dellgirl wrote:

Youre very passionate about the paper you dont work for. you should get a job there. You'd be a very loyal employee by the looks of it.

I would love to work for the Indo.

fly_agaric

santosubito wrote:

A rag? Please expand.

I think he means you could use the Indo (and the Sindo) as cheap bog-roll substitute in a pinch. Hope that helps.
I saw the frontpage of the Indo on the day of its glorious "Child Killer" headline and I have to say my stomach did a few slow rolls. Oh so technically correct as you pointed out, so its all good. Don't want to be sued now do we?

As a matter of interest, could you give us some examples of the IT's "mistakes" in 2005?

santosubito

fly_agaric wrote:

I think he means you could use the Indo (and the Sindo) as cheap bog-roll substitute in a pinch. Hope that helps.
I saw the frontpage of the Indo on the day of its glorious "Child Killer" headline and I have to say my stomach did a few slow rolls. Oh so technically correct as you pointed out, so its all good. Don't want to be sued now do we?

As a matter of interest, could you give us some examples of the IT's "mistakes" in 2005?

Good God, using any paper as toilet roll would really hurt.

But people are still bandying about the term rag for no apparent reason. It's always funny when people put forward ideas, but can't back them up. The Indo is published 300 odd times a year, yet people can only remember the Wayne O'Donoghue story. He is a child killer, but perhaps they should have called him a victim of society.

In relation to your question about the IT's mistakes of 2005, I'll be happy to get back to you.

santosubito

This story appeared on the front page on January 27, 2004 (you imposed the 2005 restriction - I'll choose to ignore it).

A few hours later, the government announced the plan was going ahead. Oops.

Government to postpone decision on Lansdowne stadium
Mark Hennessy, Political Correspondent

The Government is to postpone a decision which had been expected today on plans to build a 50,000-seater stadium at Lansdowne Road, amid new doubts about the viability of the project.

The joint IRFU/FAI proposal had been expected to be approved today after over five years of political dispute over a national stadium.

The Minister for Sport, Mr O'Donoghue, has said several times in recent weeks that a decision would be taken by the end of January.

However, last night it seemed likely that this deadline would not be met amid concern that residents' objections could hold up the plan for years as well as other construction-related issues.

Ministers may discuss the issue again today but well-placed sources said last night that a decision was very unlikely. Mr O'Donoghue has prepared a memorandum for Government offering Ministers two options: The Lansdowne Road project or a larger 65,000 seat stadium at Abbotstown.

The Taoiseach has long championed the Abbotstown proposal, while the PDs favour a Lansdowne Road redevelopment. Recently the Taoiseach has said he is not "hung up" on Abbotstown, and there has been a growing expectation that the Lansdowne plan would be approved tomorrow.

However, concerns remain over the extent of possible planning objections, drainage difficulties and question marks surrounding access for fans.

The Dublin 4 development would face a major planning battle as local residents' groups have already given vocal notice that they will fiercely oppose the €250 million plan. Investigating a number of options late last September, the Office of Public Works warned that a stadium holding more than 45,000 seats would run into major planning hurdles.

Following the publication of the OPW letter by The Irish Times in December, OPW chairman, Mr Sean Benton, told the IRFU and FAI that its fears did not apply to their proposed project, because of the design used.

The latest plan, which was presented to Minister O'Donoghue in early December, would offer 50,000 seats, a retractable roof and other world-class facilities, supporters say.

"This has been around a hell of a long time. People are exhausted with it. Nobody wants to say it is settled until it is signed, sealed and delivered," one Government source told The Irish Times last night.

Government approval would offer the chance, but not the guarantee, that Ireland's 2006 World Cup qualifying games could continue to take place at Lansdowne Road, despite seating difficulties.

The qualifying campaign should end before the stadium plan, if finally approved by the Government, completes its passage through the planning process.

Currently, Lansdowne can host 33,000 soccer supporters for competitive games. Ireland's World Cup qualifying calendar will be agreed next Tuesday when the FAI, along with the soccer bodies from France, Israel, Switzerland, Cyprus and the Faroe Islands meet in Dublin.

If FIFA refuses to grant the FAI a further derogation, the association will be forced to organise Ireland's home games in Parkhead in Glasgow, the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff, or Old Trafford in Manchester.

santosubito

Then there was the Kevin Myers article. Only a rag would print that, surely?

Why I chose to publish Kevin Myers' Irishman's Diary

Feb, 12, 2005

The Editor of The Irish Times, Geraldine Kennedy, explains how a controversial column made the pages of the paper on Tuesday

Every journalist has experienced that awful feeling - usually in the dead of night and with the newspaper already being printed - that the report or article they've written is wrong. That I might have misunderstood or misinterpreted something. That the sources may have been wrong or playing some devious game. That the leak was not from the final draft of the document. That the story will be proved wrong tomorrow.

I had one of those moments last Monday night over the Irishman's Diary I had read and approved for Tuesday's paper.

To put it in context, one needs to realize that a myriad of judgment calls have to be made in the deadline-driven environment of the editor's office every day. Like other sections of the paper, the Irishman's Diary must be signed off at the highest level. The Editor has responsibility for all of the editorial content of the newspaper but must make personal judgments on those areas that are likely to be most contentious.

Kevin Myers is one of this newspaper's and Ireland's best writers, a brave journalist as well as being a provocative commentator. His Irishman's Diary is never dull, always challenging some orthodoxy or other, and frequently courageous in tackling head-on issues that others prefer to skirt around carefully. It is probably fair to say that most, if not all, of his columns irritate somebody.

Kevin performs a very important function in this newspaper by challenging many of today's orthodoxies in the same spirit as The Irish Times has always questioned the prevailing views of the day. It is part of this newspaper's role to challenge and question, to provide a forum for debate, and to give a platform to minority, sometimes unpopular, views.

It is in this context that Kevin's columns are read to approve their publication or otherwise. Like everybody else, when they coincide with my personal opinions I think he's a great columnist. At other times, when I don't agree with him, I think "that's Kevin doing his job".

Last Tuesday's Diary went through the normal editorial process and was passed to me for approval at about 6.15 p.m. I read it once, and then I read it again. I was unhappy about the use of the word "bastard". He was deliberately, as he spelled out, using it as a shock tactic. I believed that it was deeply offensive to children and their mothers. It stigmatised them. It suggested a mentality with which I fundamentally disagreee.

I had three options: to edit out the b-word, to publish the column as it was, or not to publish any of it. I decided that it would be wrong to censor it totally or to sanitise it. The use of the word "bastard" suggested the mindset of some of those who would like to return us all to a distant and unhappy past. It introduced one perspective to the argument against social welfare for unmarried mothers. The mindset which sees innocent children as bastards still exists in 2005, unfortunately, and I felt it should be revealed.

The word "bastard" is not just a prejudicial and offensive term. It taps into the darkest days in Irish social history: the mothers who had to give up their babies for adoption, the countless children who were stigmatised because their parents were not married, those brought up in institutions where that kind of thinking was a permit to abuse them physically and mentally, and those mothers who brought up children entirely alone in the past and suffered social exclusion for doing so.

I regret the decision to publish the Diary. I am sorry for the offence caused to hundreds of women and children, to many readers of this newspaper.

The Irish Times must go on providing challenging and thought-provoking opinions as well as honest news reporting and insightful features.

We may not always get it right. And maybe, by default, by touching that raw nerve inside so many,we may have started the real debate about the status of children and families in today's society.

A Dub in Glasgo

An Indo wannabe here on boards... you need to lower the tone and write some sensationalist nonsense if you want them to notice you

---

Excellent piece from Vincent Browne in the Sunday Business Post

The year when the media disgraced themselves

santosubito

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

An Indo wannabe here on boards... you need to lower the tone and write some sensationalist nonsense if you want them to notice you

---

Excellent piece from Vincent Browne in the Sunday Business Post

The year when the media disgraced themselves

Again, you haven't backed up your belief that the Indo is sensationalist.

I'm starting to get the hang of this boards.ie idea: write what you want and don't worry about proof.
It was a great article by Mr Browne, he really got stuck into the Irish Times for the Myers piece!

fly_agaric

santosubito wrote:

Good God, using any paper as toilet roll would really hurt.

Yes, I'm sure it would. I'm not old enough to know anything about that.

^^Fair dues to you for making the effort to answer my question and thanks for those examples. I'd forgotten about Myers' "Mothers of Bastards" column.

santosubito wrote:

The Indo is published 300 odd times a year, yet people can only remember the Wayne O'Donoghue story.

Forgive me. I don't buy it or read it usually. Sometimes I buy it the day the jobs thingy is in it. I remember that headline because I did buy the paper that day for some reason or other. The only explanation (IMO) for them using the large "Child Killer" at the top of the paper is that it was an attempt to grab people's attention to make sales. Maybe it was a slow news day. So they took their articles about that case (quite fair as I recall) and chose the most sensationalist wording they could come up with for the headline without exposing themselves legally.

What is a rag?
If a "rag" is a paper that uses whipped-up scandal as a tool to generate sales, is the above not an example of behaving like a rag? Maybe you mean a paper has to deal with stories this way all the time or just a majority of the time in order to qualify as a bona-fide rag? Then I'll say I personally don't read it enough to know if it is or not. Happy?

The Lawlor thing in the Sunday Independent is another example of the same mentality (print whatever will sell the most papers without exposing us to damaging legal actions - decency is for wimps), one which backfired due to inaccuracies.

santosubito

"Forgive me. I don't buy it or read it usually. Sometimes I buy it the day the jobs thingy is in it. I remember that headline because I did buy the paper that day for some reason or other. The only explanation (IMO) for them using the large "Child Killer" at the top of the paper is that it was an attempt to grab people's attention to make sales. Maybe it was a slow news day. So they took their articles about that case (quite fair as I recall) and chose the most sensationalist wording they could come up with for the headline without exposing themselves legally. "

There were very, very strog reasons for that headline.
A child was killed and the killer not only disposed of the body, tried to burn it and took part in the searches for Robert, but he also even went into the Holohan house and called Robert's mobile phone - all the time knowing he had killed him.

Also, there's a commerical pressure in every newspaper. Papers exist to be sold and, inevitably, make money.

Can anyone name me a national paper in this country that isn't commercially driven?

But at least you've explained coherently why you think the Indo is a rag.

Eoin

santosubito wrote:

Secondly, Wayne O'Donoghue IS a child killer.

Just as well you don't feel strongly about not making emotive comments about cases that are sub-judice, isn't it!

santosubito

eoin_s wrote:

Just as well you don't feel strongly about not making emotive comments about cases that are sub-judice, isn't it!

Actually, I do feel strongly about that.

But it's lucky for me that what I wrote wasn't a comment. It was a fact.

Uness I'm mistaken he was found guilty of killing a child.

What part of "child killer" is in contempt of court, then?

fly_agaric

santosubito wrote:

There were very, very strog reasons for that headline.
A child was killed and the killer not only disposed of the body, tried to burn it and took part in the searches for Robert, but he also even went into the Holohan house and called Robert's mobile phone - all the time knowing he had killed him.

Okay. You think it was fair to use that headline - I think it was somewhat nasty and distasteful. He is a "Child Killer", but a headline phrased like that has connotations that go beyond the meaning. If you think what he did deserves that, fair enough.

santosubito wrote:

Can anyone name me a national paper in this country that isn't commercially driven?

I can't anyway. Commercially driven != prepared to do anything that will fly under the legal radar if it will boost sales.

santosubito wrote:

But at least you've explained coherently why you think the Indo is a rag.

I just offered a humourous explanation of the term "rag" as applied to the Indo by someone else on the thread. Then I tried to explain exactly what makes a newspaper a rag IMO.
As I said, I am not in a position to judge the Indo. I don't read it enough.

fly_agaric

eoin_s wrote:

Just as well you don't feel strongly about not making emotive comments about cases that are sub-judice, isn't it!

huh? The trial is over. The Indo wouldn't have dared use that headline while it was ongoing. If he had been guilty of murder no doubt the same people would have upped the ante and used "Child Murderer" (or maybe "Child Butcher", or "Child Slaughterer") for their blasted headline.

santosubito

fly_agaric wrote:

huh? The trial is over. The Indo wouldn't have dared use that headline while it was ongoing. If he had been guilty of murder no doubt the same people would have upped the ante and used "Child Murderer" (or maybe "Child Butcher", or "Child Slaughterer") for their blasted headline.

Actually, the trial is not over, technically.

A Supreme Court ruling from around 2002 clearly says that a trial judge has ownership of the case until the sentencing is handed down.

There used to be leeway for the media when the poerson was merely convicted.

But that's all changed now.

So, I'm afraid, it's stiull sub judice.