Is McDowell using (some of) Goebbels’ tactics?

monument

This isn’t a joke. Seriously, is McDowell using some of the Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels’s tactics?

McDowell continually makes people/groups out to be a ‘threat to the state’ or a ‘threat to democracy’, playing with fear, and then he repeats the claims until they start to ring true in peoples minds (‘the Goebbels technique’).

Besides this he has a worrying tendency to want to control the media, while not wanting to play by the rules he wants them to play by.

Goebbels was very influential.

Most politicians/governments use those tactics. It's a big problem for representitave democracy.

Saying that, McDowell does seem particularly authoritarian/illiberal relative to a lot of politicians in Ireland.

Cork

monument wrote:

Besides this he has a worrying tendency to want to control the media, while not wanting to play by the rules he wants them to play by.

Why Frank Connolly has a right to reply?

We are still awaiting a reply from Connolly.

What is taking this guy so long?

McDowell has done this coutry some service for standing up aganist the Provos.


McDowell unlike many Provos has always believed in democratic politics and the government of this country.

Some in SF believed that the IRA army council were the legitimate government of this country.

monument

Cork, so, you have no problem with me saying he uses (some of) the same propaganda tactics Goebbels?

Like imagine if there was a poster here on boards who just posted the same lines over and over again, ie using ‘the Goebbels technique’.

flogen

I think he is using the Goebbels technique, whether Connolly is a threat or not is not the argument.
The fact is he's saying something that would be slanderous in any context except under Dail Privilege. He is also making claims that far surpass the illegal passport issue (Which is the only claim that has some evidence behind it).
Not only has he damaged any possibility of a successful legal case against Connolly, he has abused his position so that he can escape the punishment he would generally suffer.
Yeah, he's really sticking it to the provo's, making sure they can't go to prison for their alleged crimes. There's nothing democratic about attacking people without evidence and getting away with it because of who you are.

Zombrex

monument wrote:

This isn’t a joke. Seriously, is McDowell using some of the Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels’s tactics?

McDowell is an idiot, and I agree that he is pushing the limits of his position as Minister for Justice by his continuing trial by media tactics (of course it doesn't mean his information is incorrect, but it is not the way to go about law and justice in a democracy). I have no problem with him making public intelligence on certain groups, such as when he stated it was the position of the states intelligence services that the IRA carried out the Northern Bank robbery. But singling out individual in the Dial is a bit much. If he had information it should be presented in a completely non-biased way, and it is apparent that wasn't the case here.

I do fail to see what this has to do with Goebbels and the tactics used by the Nazis in German though. Why does everything have to be brought back to "You sir are worse than Hitler!" (quote from Simpsons if ya don't know) type arguments. McDowell is nothing like Goebbels and his "tactics" are nothing like those used by Goebbels. Merely saying they both use propaganda is a bit like saying a lion hunting a gazel is the same as a cat playing with a ball of string.

flogen

Wicknight wrote:

I do fail to see what this has to do with Goebbels and the tactics used by the Nazis in German though. Why does everything have to be brought back to "You sir are worse than Hitler!" (quote from Simpsons if ya don't know) type arguments. McDowell is nothing like Goebbels and his "tactics" are nothing like those used by Goebbels. Merely saying they both use propaganda is a bit like saying a lion hunting a gazel is the same as a cat playing with a ball of string.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that McDowell matches Goebbels in any respect, but rather that he is using the Goebbels technique, which involves singling out a person or party and claiming they are a security threat, then repeating that same claim until it is believed, without needing to prove it.

It's a standard technique though, nothing that hasn't been used on both sides of every conflict (be it a diplomatic conflict or a military one) for years.

monument

Wicknight wrote:

McDowell is nothing like Goebbels and his "tactics" are nothing like those used by Goebbels. Merely saying they both use propaganda is a bit like saying a lion hunting a gazel is the same as a cat playing with a ball of string.

Knowing it or not McDowell is using the ‘Goebbels technique’, (or at least there is the growing perception he is).

His strong use of fear, and going on and on about the ‘threat to the state’ or a ‘threat to democracy’ is also very much so like Goebbels "tactics".

mike65

Justice minister labels criminals and terrorists "a threat to society" shock!

Its a right and proper tactic (if you are the one in power) to use your office to attack those who threaten the status quo. Realpolitik which, enjoyably is a German term.

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

Justice minister labels criminals and terrorists "a threat to society" shock!

Please show how Connolly is either a terrorist or a crimninal that is a 'threat to society'?

monument

Realpolitik - politics based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations

And this is what our Justice Minister is doing?

Threads like this do nothing to shed any light on the whole McDowell/Connolly issue, or the propriety of McDowell's actions.

What they do clearly show is that some people have a breathtaking failure to grasp the horros of the Third Reich and the absolute depravity of the Holocaust. Flippantly comparing a Minister, even one who has behaved as badly as McDowell, to one of Hitler's right hand men only shows that the OP is happy to treat the attempt to wipe out Jews as a useful device to enable him score cheap shots on a website. A bit more respect all round might be the most appropriate...

Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Please show how Connolly is either a terrorist or a crimninal that is a 'threat to society'?

If Connolly has a problem with the way he was treated then let Connolly clear it up.

Flippantly comparing a Minister, even one who has behaved as badly as McDowell, to one of Hitler's right hand men only shows that the OP is happy to treat the attempt to wipe out Jews as a useful device to enable him score cheap shots on a website. A bit more respect all round might be the most appropriate

I for one agree.

Diorraing

Cork wrote:

McDowell has done this coutry some service for standing up aganist the Provos.


McDowell unlike many Provos has always believed in democratic politics and the government of this country.

Firstly, McDowell isn't "standing up against the provos" for the good of this country. He's doing it because he knows that the PDs will be virtually wiped out at the next election. If he was doing the country some service he would condemn unionist violence - coz lets be honest, Cork, they are the only people causing trouble at the moment. If he was so concerned about "democratic politics" he would have condemed the Brits for putting spies into democratically elected Sinn Fein - as yet no word. He is a one-sided paranoid fool.
And if he did truly believe in democratic politics as you say he does he would believe in due process and the concept that every man is innocent until proven guilty. As yet Connolly has no case to answer because no evidence has been brought against him. I for one am glad he hasn't responded because that would be to endorse McDowell's style of politics. Sickening

Diorraing

Deleted User wrote:

Threads like this do nothing to shed any light on the whole McDowell/Connolly issue, or the propriety of McDowell's actions.

What they do clearly show is that some people have a breathtaking failure to grasp the horros of the Third Reich and the absolute depravity of the Holocaust. Flippantly comparing a Minister, even one who has behaved as badly as McDowell, to one of Hitler's right hand men only shows that the OP is happy to treat the attempt to wipe out Jews as a useful device to enable him score cheap shots on a website. A bit more respect all round might be the most appropriate...

Perhaps if you read the original post it might be helpful. The OP compared McDowell's tactics of "playing on fear" to Goebbel's. No mention of Jews - only comparing one aspect of Goebbel's tactics. Lets not stop free speech with PC!

flogen

Was realpolitik not a Machiavellian phrase/notion?

I guess this thread has suffered from a case of the Godwin's. There is no comparison between Goebbels political life and McDowells, and so no disrespect is being served to anyone. Monument is mearly pointing out that McDowell, intentionally or not, is using a tactic made popular by Goebbels. He's not saying he's a Nazi, he's as bad as Goebbels or that McDowell is the only person doing it in this day and age, it's just a point that he is.

And Cork, while Connolly has been quiet during all of this, your attitude astonishes me. Why should anyone have to defend themselves from a public and (so far) baseless attack? Shouldn't evidence be presented to match all claims before a response is expected? What can Connolly do? Come out and say that McDowell is not telling the truth? He has nothing to deny other than the words of the Minister, and I think he has done that in a number of statements anyway.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

If Connolly has a problem with the way he was treated then let Connolly clear it up.

So you cannot show how Connolly is either a terrorist or a crimninal that is a 'threat to society' as well?

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote:

What they do clearly show is that some people have a breathtaking failure to grasp the horros of the Third Reich and the absolute depravity of the Holocaust. Flippantly comparing a Minister, even one who has behaved as badly as McDowell, to one of Hitler's right hand men only shows that the OP is happy to treat the attempt to wipe out Jews as a useful device to enable him score cheap shots on a website. A bit more respect all round might be the most appropriate...

The 'nobody can compare to the Nazis line' again. That line may well be correct in c ertain circumstances but this is not one of them. Read the thread again, there is a subtle difference which you have failed to grasp.

PhoenixRising

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

So you cannot show how Connolly is either a terrorist or a crimninal that is a 'threat to society' as well?

Unfortunately only the Minister for Justice has access to the evidence to prove that.

A Dub in Glasgo

PhoenixRising wrote:

Unfortunately only the Minister for Justice has access to the evidence to prove that.

How can evidence 'prove' something if it is not tested by the courts? Arrest & charge Connolly I say. A lot of folk here say not.

LostinBlanch

Limiting this to Connolly and whether he is or isn't a closet provo is getting away from the three words that send a shiver down McDowells and the PDs spine - Centre for Public Inquiry.

This is a real threat to current the government by investigating fully certain deals that merit further investigation, including:

1. Thornton Hall: McDowells fastrack purchase of a prison site without any tender process.
2. The Dublin Docklands deal: Prime acreage sold to a private company with Fianna Fail connections at knockdown prices by the Dublin Docklands Authority, staffed by political appointees.
3. Tara M3 Motorway: Questionable rezoning decisions involving land bought by certain Meath County Councillor(s) or people connected to them facilitated by Frank Dunlop and offshore accounts. All this disregarding serious protest from archaeologists and historians worldwide; and oh yeah the route selected is not even the shortest route!

The CPI has also written reports on Rossport and the building of a hotel in what was formerly the car park of Trim castle.

To see how scared they are try visiting the PDs website and see what you get when CPI is mentioned.

Oh and before you ask I'm not a member of any political party, just someone who is sick of all this sh*t

PhoenixRising

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Arrest & charge Connolly I say. A lot of folk here say not.

I agree with you that in that I would have rather seen him charged and let it go through the courts. Unfortunately that won't happen now. McDowell said what he said because he knew that securing a prosecution through the courts would be difficult.

LostinBlanch

Cork,

I don't know how old you are or if you remember the situation in the 80's with Sean Doherty as Minister for Justice involved in tapping journalists phones, Bruce Arnold and Geraldine Kennedy simply because he and Haughey didn't like what was written about them. Now imagine what the bould michaels response would have been to that if he was a TD (in opposition naturally because there was no way that potential PDs,especially from an FG background, would ever find themselves supporting Haughey). Doherty has just replied to a written question in the Dail which has allowed him to name the above two journos as a threat to the nation under Dail privelige (without any proof).

I could easily see him jumping up and down frothing at the mouth using hsi oratorical skills to tell us exactly how it was Doherty and not Arnold and Kennedy that was the real threat to Democracy in this country.

So I'm just wondering exactly what has changed other than Michael "knowing that he knows what he knows" that is.

Also check out the timeline for the attacks on the CPI by Independent newspapers since it's launch in February http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=40&aid=930

A Dub in Glasgo

PhoenixRising wrote:

I agree with you that in that I would have rather seen him charged and let it go through the courts. Unfortunately that won't happen now. McDowell said what he said because he knew that securing a prosecution through the courts would be difficult.

Accept that Connolly is Guilty until Proven Innocent? I would much prefer to accept the Innocent until Proven Guilty principle. I know it is a little old fashioned but hey, that is just me.

monument

Deleted User wrote:

Threads like this do nothing to shed any light on the whole McDowell/Connolly issue, or the propriety of McDowell's actions.

What they do clearly show is that some people have a breathtaking failure to grasp the horros of the Third Reich and the absolute depravity of the Holocaust. Flippantly comparing a Minister, even one who has behaved as badly as McDowell, to one of Hitler's right hand men only shows that the OP is happy to treat the attempt to wipe out Jews as a useful device to enable him score cheap shots on a website. A bit more respect all round might be the most appropriate...

If you're a bit confused about what we're talking about could you please read the "OP", if that fails and you cant understand what is been discussed, could you please have a "bit more respect" and stop putting words in my mouth. Thanks.

PhoenixRising

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Accept that Connolly is Guilty until Proven Innocent? I would much prefer to accept the Innocent until Proven Guilty principle. I know it is a little old fashioned but hey, that is just me.

Fair enough but he still has the right to reply to defend himself if the accusations are completely groundless. He has been very quiet.

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

Perhaps if you read the original post it might be helpful.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Read the thread again, there is a subtle difference which you have failed to grasp.

Don't assume I haven't read it.

On the logic of this thread (can I assume both of ye haven't read or grasped the highly provocative thread title) I could post a thread with the title 'Were Hitler and Enda Kenny Alike' and then in the fine print explain that I didn't really mean the whole extermination of the Jewish race bit, just that they'd have both enjoyed a 'joke' at the expense of black people. I'm not going to develop that point, it is not worthy of a debate, and neither is the central point of the OP's post...

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote:

Don't assume I haven't read it.

No assumption made, just a clarification sought

On the logic of this thread (can I assume both of ye haven't read or grasped the highly provocative thread title) I could post a thread with the title 'Were Hitler and Enda Kenny Alike' and then in the fine print explain that I didn't really mean the whole extermination of the Jewish race bit, just that they'd have both enjoyed a 'joke' at the expense of black people. I'm not going to develop that point, it is not worthy of a debate, and neither is the central point of the OP's post...

Were McDrowell and Goebbel alike? I would say maybe but that is not the subject of this thread and is surely worthy of debate in some other thread so I will leave it at that.

LostinBlanch

PhoenixRising wrote:

Fair enough but he still has the right to reply to defend himself if the accusations are completely groundless. He has been very quiet.

Well if Connolly did take legal action the matter would become sub judice and no one could discuss this publicly until after the court case (which would more than likely be delayed until after the next election). Meanwhile the whispering campaign would continue.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Were McDrowell and Goebbel alike? I would say maybe but that is not the subject of this thread and is surely worthy of debate in some other thread so I will leave it at that.

Yeah, but you know I'll be all over that thread like a pitbull on a poodle too...:D

I fully appreciate the point being made by you and others. I also think that the thrust of the thread, as demonstrated by the title, is not as innocent as some would portray it. It would have been very easy to compare McDowell's action with something extremely objectionable other then the tactics used by Goebbel's...

flogen

PhoenixRising wrote:

Fair enough but he still has the right to reply to defend himself if the accusations are completely groundless. He has been very quiet.

But what can he do to defend himself? As far as I know he's denied the claims, but given that no evidence is forthcoming he can't defend himself against it. It would just be a case of one persons word against another and is no way to deal with alleged crimes. This is McDowell's failing, avoiding legal process and trying to force a trial by media.
If Connolly came out with a long statement it would be playing into his hands, but the fact is he can remain silent and let it all die down, what court is going to hear a case against him now that the Minister has biased any possible legal action?

monument

Deleted User wrote:

Don't assume I haven't read it.

On the logic of this thread (can I assume both of ye haven't read or grasped the highly provocative thread title) I could post a thread with the title 'Were Hitler and Enda Kenny Alike' and then in the fine print explain that I didn't really mean the whole extermination of the Jewish race bit, just that they'd have both enjoyed a 'joke' at the expense of black people. I'm not going to develop that point, it is not worthy of a debate, and neither is the central point of the OP's post...

Is my "breathtaking failure to grasp the horros of the Third Reich and the absolute depravity of the Holocaust" just due to the thread's name or what?

1. Goebbels is knowen as the Propaganda Minister
2. "highly provocative" and my use of "(some of)" in the title are not really going to mix

Is this just the best way you could think of to cover up our Minister's propaganda?

PhoenixRising

flogen wrote:

But what can he do to defend himself? As far as I know he's denied the claims, but given that no evidence is forthcoming he can't defend himself against it. It would just be a case of one persons word against another and is no way to deal with alleged crimes. This is McDowell's failing, avoiding legal process and trying to force a trial by media.
If Connolly came out with a long statement it would be playing into his hands, but the fact is he can remain silent and let it all die down, what court is going to hear a case against him now that the Minister has biased any possible legal action?

Well he could offer an explanation as to what he was doing in Colombia in April 2001 allegedly traveling on a false passport in the company of known IRA members. Did he make the trip or not? Has he an alibi? If he does I'll gladly accept it and let the matter lie, as would everyone else I assume.

A Dub in Glasgo

PhoenixRising wrote:

Well he could offer an explanation as to what he was doing in Colombia in April 2001 allegedly traveling on a false passport in the company of known IRA members. Did he make the trip or not?

I was under the impression he already answered that one or do you not believe him? Leads us nices onto

Has he an alibi? If he does I'll gladly accept it and let the matter lie, as would everyone else I assume.

Guilty until proven innocent!!!! Why do you not call for him to be arrested and charged?

flogen

the problem is that the claims made against him go much further than saying he travelled, or attempted to travel on a false passport.
I too would like to hear his side as far as that goes, and his silence would indicate that he doesn't have an answer, but thankfully there is no legal basis to conclusions and there is certainly no reason for McDowell going as far as he has with nothing to back it up

monument

monument wrote:

Is this just the best way you could think of to cover up our Minister's propaganda?

Are you suggesting I am some apologist for McDowell or applaud his action?

Then perhaps try quotes like...

Deleted User wrote:

It would have been very easy to compare McDowell's action with something extremely objectionable other then the tactics used by Goebbel's...

Wasn't there a point made somewhere about reading posts and not putting words in anothers mouth? And in fact didn't you make that point? Just because I abhor your comparison, don't assume I am defending McDowell...

PhoenixRising

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Why do you not call for him to be arrested and charged?

Well there's no point now as McDowell, by his actions, has made a trial an impossibility.

As to your other point, I have to say that a difference exists in my mind purely because of where these accusations are coming from - the State's Minister for Justice who has access to daily security briefings from the Gardaí. Leaving aside personalities, I have respect for the office of the Minister for Justice and would like to think that any statements made by the minister are truthful and based on Garda intelligence.

Doctor Benway

PhoenixRising wrote:

Well there's no point now as McDowell, by his actions, has made a trial an impossibility.

As to your other point, I have to say that a difference exists in my mind purely because of where these accusations are coming from - the State's Minister for Justice who has access to daily security briefings from the Gardaí. Leaving aside personalities, I have respect for the office of the Minister for Justice and would like to think that any statements made by the minister are truthful and based on Garda intelligence.

"Truthful" and "based on Garda intelligence" aren't necessarily one and the same.

PhoenixRising

Doctor Benway wrote:

"Truthful" and "based on Garda intelligence" aren't necessarily one and the same.

Unfortunately the IRA aren't that open about their activities so the minister has to rely on Garda intelligence for State security. My sentiment remains the same - that I would like to think that the Minister for Justice was sure of his facts before he made the statement.

Doctor Benway

PhoenixRising wrote:

Unfortunately the IRA aren't that open about their activities so the minister has to rely on Garda intelligence for State security. My sentiement remains the same - that I would like to think that the Minister for Justice was sure of his facts before he made the statement.

Even if the accusations were true, it still doesn't explain why he made the statement. Certainly McDowell has claimed that he was acting in the interest of preserving the security of the State. What I can't understand (and what I haven't seen any explanation of ) is how making this statement in any way strengthens 'our' security, particularly considering that it's effectively ensured that Connolly can never stand trial on any offence related to these accusations.

mike65

Enough Connolly, I thought McDowell was the subject of this thread.

Mike.

PhoenixRising

Well for one, I would imagine that this information being made public, will severely limit what Connolly and his associates allegedly get up to.

Doctor Benway

PhoenixRising wrote:

Well for one, I would imagine that this information being made public, will severely limit what Connolly and his associates allegedly get up to.

Without getting into the issue of Connolly's alleged activities (as the thread is about McDowell, as we've been reminded), I don't really see how this could be the case.

If McDowell is acting on Garda intelligence, then (by definition) the Gardaí already know everything that McDowell is putting into the public domain. Surely it's within the power of the Gardaí, rather than the man or woman in the street, to limit what people are able to get up to. While public awareness of potential subversion may possibly add to the chances of its failure, this would be only pretty minimal and has to be balanced against the consequences of a Minister publicly circumventing the judicial process (not to mention the likelihood that the credibility of the Office of the Minister could be damaged by his making these kinds of unsubstantiated and unproveable claims, so that people would be less likely to believe any future accusations).

Diorraing

If there is any justice in the world (no pun intended), Michael McDowell should resign from his office. Even if Connolly was guilty, that is for a court of law to decide. It is clear that McDowell's aim was to cut funding to the CPI and using such tactics to do so is unacceptable in our society. If Fianna Fáil have any backbone left they should stand up to the PDs and boot him out!

mike65

Eh? McDowell is doing FFs dirty work for them! Some make noises on the back benches but trust me the government part of FF is very happy to have the Pds onboard.

Mike.

flogen

flogen wrote:

But what can he do to defend himself? As far as I know he's denied the claims, but given that no evidence is forthcoming he can't defend himself against it.

Pretty easy to show you were not in Columbia n'est pas?

It would just be a case of one persons word against another and is no way to deal with alleged crimes.

It's not against any Irish law to have been in Columbia especially when a false passport cannot be tied to Connolly.

This is McDowell's failing, avoiding legal process and trying to force a trial by media.

How is it trial by media, I understand most of the media are critical of McDowell.If anything it's a trial of McDowell by media and its inflicted on McDowell by himself.

If Connolly came out with a long statement it would be playing into his hands, but the fact is he can remain silent and let it all die down, what court is going to hear a case against him now that the Minister has biased any possible legal action?

All Connolly has to do is show that he couldnt have been in Columbia and blow McDowell out of the water in the process.
In the meantime he has tarnished the CPI's name to all but Republicans it would seem.

After all how could you accept the word of a centre that is supposed to investigate non transparency whne its director is being anything but transparent.

Diorraing

Earthman wrote:

Pretty easy to show you were not in Columbia n'est pas? It's not against any Irish law to have been in Columbia especially when a false passport cannot be tied to Connolly.

Good, then you'll accept that he has nothing to answer. No criminal charges brought against him, no need to answer any.

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

Good, then you'll accept that he has nothing to answer. No criminal charges brought against him, no need to answer any.

I wont accept that because he is the head of an investigative body and he is not being transparent.
He's being evasive.
He needs to clear this up and do what he expects of others and be transparent.

Diorraing

Earthman wrote:

I wont accept that because he is the head of an investigative body and he is not being transparent.
He's being evasive.
He needs to clear this up and do what he expects of others and be transparent.

Not being transparent? Transparent about what? There is no evidence to suggest anything. If anyone is being evasive it is Michael McDowell. He is the head of a government department and he is not being transparent. What evidence is there against Connolly? Why is he not being prosecuted? Frank Connolly may be as guilty as sin, but that is for the court to decide not for any of us

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

Not being transparent? Transparent about what? There is no evidence to suggest anything.

Then Connolly should have no difficulty dismissing the claims with more than "I wasnt there" , that wouldnt be good enough for someone that would expect more from the people he's investigating.

If anyone is being evasive it is Michael McDowell. He is the head of a government department and he is not being transparent.

How so? He's put everything out in the open-where he got the information and who he gave it to and this has given him a lot of grief.He neednt have done any of that especially when Connolly has the power to do McDowell a lot of damage.

What evidence is there against Connolly? Why is he not being prosecuted? Frank Connolly may be as guilty as sin, but that is for the court to decide not for any of us

Did you miss the bit where I said it wasnt against the law to go to columbia?
Being in columbia with the Farc and going to ground about it instead of clearly showing he couldnt have been there is not good for the director of CPI or for its reputation.

That should be put to bed easily but it isnt which begs the question of why??
Couple that with the fact that Chuck feeney saw fit to ask him to step down after he did his own bit of independent investigation.
Connolly needs to be transparent about his whereabouts instead of going to ground like he has.

Otherwise he's being very fishy and certainly not living up to the standards of transparency that he expects of others.

A Dub in Glasgo

I thought going to Colombia and training the FARC (as stated by McD) was a crime?

I thought applying for a passport that is not your own ie a fake (as stated by McD) was a crime?