[article] Sinn Fein expell IRA-British Agent erm...

FTA69

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/12435

Funny enough, I seem to recall a few posters here a while back using the "Stormont Spy Ring" as a stick to beat Sinn Féin, perhaps they might want to examine the fact that a British agent was in the middle of it all! Does anyone else not find it odd that during a supposed peace process the Brits are still running informers within Sinn Féin? And that the Assembly was collapsed by the Brits themselves while they later raided our offices in a ceremony of pomp and splendour? There are serious questions to be answered relating to this case.

meldrew

Smacks of Sinn Fein propaganda tbh

mike65

I was going to bump this thread but can't.

from bbc

Sinn Fein man expelled as 'agent'

Charges were dropped against Denis Donaldson
Sinn Fein has expelled one of three men acquitted of involvement in an alleged IRA spy ring at Stormont, accusing him of being a "British agent".

All charges against the party's former Stormont head of administration, Denis Donaldson, were dropped by the Crown.

Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams said it was "a carefully constructed lie created by the Special Branch in order to cause maximum political impact".

The October 2002 arrests led to the fall of NI's power-sharing executive.

Sinn Fein said in a statement that Mr Donaldson was expelled from the party on Thursday night.

Mr Adams is giving further details at a news conference in Dublin on Friday afternoon.

Here is a statement by Gerry Adams.

I'm not going to offer an opinion yet as this is for information purposes only, when the afternoon statement is made public then there may be more to go on than speculation (how does SF know Donaldson is an agent?).

Mike.

FTA69

I've heard it all now, and why would we expel a senior member of our party in the interests of propaganda??? Especially considering we've already been vindicated on the spy-ring issue. I suppose the sophisticated electronic bug found in our offices (which the Brits later admitted to planting) last year was "propaganda" as well was it?

meldrew

EVERYTHING sinn fein do is carefully orchestrated to get the maximun publicity and this is no exception , if Gerry Adams said it was raining I'd have to go outside and look

FTA69

So far the only thing you've convinced me of is your obvious paranoia, and you didn't address any of my points at all. If the Brits can come out and admit that they planted bugs in our Belfast office, how is it beyond the realms of possibility that they might continue to run touts within Sinn Féin?

Lemming

Says the man quoting from teh books of the paranoia masters themselves ....

The lyrics of a song spring to mind

"Paranoia, paranoia everybody's out to get youuuuuuuuuu"

Nuttzz

Dont you think SF have a problem if "touts" are progressing to the higher levels of SF. To find your head of administration is working for the "enemy" sounds like poor security within SF/IRA.

As he was one of the people acquitted in the "Stormontgate" recently, perhaps the trial didnt go ahead because the british didnt want to reveal an agent.

The british and lots of other governments will run agents and gather intelligence on groups it wants to monitor and will do for a long time to come, to expect them not to is naive tbh

mike65

Thats true enough, it was just said on radio that Donaldson confessed, which brings an image to mind! I'll belive it when he speaks.

Mike.

Lemming

That, nuttz is assuming that he is not;

a) Someone who saw something they didn't like and reported it - therefore in SF's logic "working for the enemy and an agent". Gotta love that paranoid logic.

b) Someone who got fingered in an internal witch-hunt.


Anyway, as mike65 pointed out (posted before I finished mine), we'll see when he makes a statement.

FTA69

The lyrics of a song spring to mind

Well, to quote Chopper Read, "Just cos I'm paranoid doesn't mean people aren't trying to get me Jim"

Nutzz,

Dont you think SF have a problem if "touts" are progressing to the higher levels of SF.

Yes. But dealing with intelligence services well-practised in sabotage and espionage the world over is a more than formidable task.

The british and lots of other governments will run agents and gather intelligence of groups with wants to monitor for a long time to come, to expect them not to is naive tbh

Nobody is saying the fact that the Brits run touts is a new development, rather we are questioning the legitimacy of such a tactic, is it right to be spying on a party in the midst of a peace process? Is it also moral to be involved in the collapse of a democratically elected assembly simply to further the British Government's intelligence agenda?

FTA69

Moreover, is it acceptable for the British government to then attempt to blame Sinn Féin for a crisis they engineered in the first place?

Nuttzz

So they should have stopped because of the peace process???

You dont think there are similar "donalsons" in the UUP,DUP, PUP etc??

it wouldnt surprise me if our own government didnt have an agent or two within SF/IRA

meldrew

What I'm saying is Sinn Fein wont turn down a chance at publicity good or bad once it keeps them in the news , its easy for them to harp on about being spied on and bugs being planted on them but when it comes down to it what do they expect ? The Brits are probably spying on everyone in the North including the Unionist parties .
Its a wonder they are expelling him and not putting him up before a kangaroo court

Lemming

FTA69 wrote:

Yes. But dealing with intelligence services well-practised in sabotage and espionage the world over is a more than formidable task.

And when dealing with people well versed in "punishment beatings" drug running, bombing and general murder it would tend to also be a rather formidable task, no?

Nobody is saying the fact that the Brits run touts is a new development, rather we are questioning the legitimacy of such a tactic, is it right to be spying on a party in the midst of a peace process? Is it also moral to be involved in the collapse of a democratically elected assembly simply to further the British Government's intelligence agenda?

I find this rather funny FTA69. Let SF clean it's own house before commenting on the intelligence gathering operations of others. I'm more than sure that SF runs its own "intelligence gathering" operations, and it would be foolish to think otherwise. Given SF's rather disgusting history I find it hard to believe their bleating about ethical behaviour is anything other than opportunistic PR at its worst.

And you should be more than aware of the old maxim which applies very much so to political life; "Keep your allies close, keep your enemies closer." It's a dirty old business. SF have more than enough experience on that particular fact.

mike65

Donaldson is with his solicitor, I'd say we can expect a statement in the next few hours.

Mike.

FTA69

So they should have stopped because of the peace process???

Yes. I thought that would be obvious. When a few Sinn Féin members were arrested and erroneously charged with "intelligence gathering" people here were screaming blue murder, but when the British government illegally spies on Republicans, and later subverts a democratic assembly while trying to blame Sinn Féin, the whole thing is portrayed as run of the mill politics! Ho hum, pass the Jaffa cakes...

Meldrew,

easy for them to harp on about being spied on and bugs being planted on them but when it comes down to it what do they expect ?

AS a party with a democratic mandate, we would like not to be harrassed, spied on or blamed for bogus spy rings I'd imagine.

The Brits are probably spying on everyone in the North including the Unionist parties .

Why would they spy on Unionist parties? Moreover, is it acceptable for the government to be spying on people they don't like?

FTA69

drug running

The IRA have never been involved in the drug-trade, and the fact you think they are highlights your obvious inexperience with either Republicans or the working-class communities where drugs are sold.

And when dealing with people well versed in "punishment beatings" drug running, bombing and general murder it would tend to also be a rather formidable task, no?

Also, bear in mind that the IRA has put its arms beyond use and has ended its campaign and operations. Pity the Brits can't do the same.

I'm more than sure that SF runs its own "intelligence gathering" operations, and it would be foolish to think otherwise

Like what? Oh that's right, you haven't a clue.

Victor

FTA69 wrote:

Moreover, is it acceptable for the British government to then attempt to blame Sinn Féin for a crisis they engineered in the first place?

Politicly yes, morally, maybe not.

Diorraing

It goes to show that the Nationalist community can still not place trust in the British Government/P.S.N.I.
SF have done all that has been reasonably asked of them. Its about time the Brits started fulfilling their part of the agreement and make a police force that is acceptable to both sides of the community - not one that keeps trying to criminalise the largest democratically elected party of the nationalist community. I mean, come on-Where is the evidence of the Northen Bank job aswell? Its time for these guys to cop on

Sand

Slightly less green tinted view here

It certainly is one possible explanation for why the trial was suddenly dropped - I saw the interview with Hain last week where he basically died on his arse trying to fob off questions on why the trial was dropped. Kept resorting to the "independant judiciary, not for me to comment" whilst the interviewer kept asking "why cant we know the reasons?"

The one thing that counts against it for me is why would British intelligence step in now, and not 3 years ago and warn off the PSNI long before they made the raid? I saw an interview with a former RUC detective where he complained about British intelligence repeatedly warning police off investigating people, long before arrests were even considered.

"To do away with power sharing, theyre evil securocrats!" cry the Provos. Okay, assuming youve got an agent so fanatical hes willing to accept serious prison time as part of the plot, but why stop now? If the trial went ahead, and Hain admitted that he was told the evidence was substansial, then the DUP would never ever consider going back into power with SFIRA. Ever. The evil securocrats plot would have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

Why would the evil securocrats suddenly stop now and hand SFIRA a publicity coup? It makes no sense whatsoever. Why would the police step in and threaten to out Donaldson? TBH, it makes far more sense for SFIRA to twist the knife by outing a British spy themselves, than it does for the securocrats to do so.

As for why I think the case was dropped, I think its for the same reason Sean Kelly was released and the On The Runs given complete immunity from either facing their crimes or their victims - Because Hain and the British will do absolutely anything to appease SFIRA, and a conviction in that trial would have forced the end of the appeasement proccess. It was politically useful for the trial to be abandoned. Simple as that.

Sand

Like what? Oh that's right, you haven't a clue.

Youve forgotten O Snodaighs electoral workers/IRA gang/Gardai and their lists of TDs and drug dealers already? Seriously, you expect your organisation to go from bombings like Warrington to whiter than white whilst led by the very same people and staffed by the very same people?

meldrew

AS a party with a democratic mandate, we would like not to be harrassed, spied on or blamed for bogus spy rings I'd imagine.

Agreed you have a democratic mandate but you also have a private army backing you which no other party has , also as a party the self same private army is raising funds by all sorts of means , and dont go on about being able to prove it . All a person has to do is look around at election time and see the amount of money SF pours into their campaign ,are you seriously saying all of that money can be accounted for?

Diorraing

meldrew wrote:

Agreed you have a democratic mandate but you also have a private army backing you which no other party has

Didn't the Ulster Resistance back the DUP - oh wait sorry, it was the DUP that backed Ulster Resistance

breandan

meldrew wrote:

AS a party with a democratic mandate, we would like not to be harrassed, spied on or blamed for bogus spy rings I'd imagine.

Agreed you have a democratic mandate but you also have a private army backing you which no other party has , also as a party the self same private army is raising funds by all sorts of means , and dont go on about being able to prove it . All a person has to do is look around at election time and see the amount of money SF pours into their campaign ,are you seriously saying all of that money can be accounted for?

Assuming the governments (British and Irish) were to think and act along the lines and rational you have stayed above then I really dont see any hope for this 'peace process'.
SF are at least trying to clean up their act however slow and tedious it may be where as the PSNI/Special Branch are a law unto themselves and it would seem are accountable to no one.
Indeed the Northern Ireland secretary Peter Hain has spent all week on tv and radio backing the actions of the security forces all the time knowing that they are involved in dirty tricks and continuing their dirty war.

Whos to say that this British spy didnt plant the 'evidence' that was supposedly found at Stormont.
The security services may deny this and may indeed be telling the truth and that the spy didnt plant this supposed evidence and that indeed SF were running a spy ring but the thing is I and many others dont believe a word out of their mouths.
The McDowellites on here can go on all they want about SF and the IRA but the fact is the biggest obsticle to a lasting and just peace in the six counties is the northern security services and their Unionist/Loyalist bossed and untill these people have been confronted and forced to follow a democratic path there is no hope of the six counties functioning properly for a sustained period of time.

breandan

breandan wrote:

then I really dont see any hope for this 'peace process'.
SF

With respect.
The Republican leadership are never going to go back to bombing and shooting.
They'd be decimated at the polls in the 26 counties if they did and would never get anything bar hard core Rah support back.

cyclopath2001

On RTE today

Bertie Ahern:

"This is just a bizarre twist, if what we are being asked to believe that the senior Sinn Féin administrator in Stormont turns out to be an agent of the British Security service, that takes some twist of even my imagination," he said.

Denis Donaldson:

"I deeply regret my activities with British intelligence and RUC PSNI special branch. I apologise to anyone who has suffered as a result of my activities as well as to my former comrades and especially to my family who have become victims in all of this."

The Baler

cyclopath2001 wrote:

On RTE today

Bertie Ahern:
twist of even my imagination!!!!

Sorry!!!!
Denis Donaldson:

OHHHHHHHHH, it's all getting very interesting now. Seems like RUC PSNI British forces have a lot of egg on their faces now.

I am beginning to wonder if Mr Blair really has full control over that part of the UK.
The Mc Dowellites on here really have an uphill climb on this one.

Can't wait to read their posts. Should make for good entertainment.

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW:D

Cork

Sinn Fein expell IRA-British Agent

Why?

How many lives did this guy save by passing on information?

Look how fast the shinners moved in comparisson to the murder of Robert McCartney.

Fairly typical of SF.

Mossy Monk

Cork wrote:

Sinn Fein expell IRA-British Agent

Why?

why would they expell him? are you serious?

samb

"This is just a bizarre twist, if what we are being asked to believe that the senior Sinn Féin administrator in Stormont turns out to be an agent of the British Security service, that takes some twist of even my imagination,"

Wow, it baffles even this imaginitive trailblazer

TomF

I don't understand why Gerry Adams advised Donaldson to consult with his solicitor. What's a solicitor going to tell him? That Donaldson's employment contract with Sinn Féin has a clause forbidding spying on the organisation for the British government? That Donaldson should look through the peep-hole in his front door before opening it to callers?

Will Sinn Féin ask Donaldson to refund his salary for those 20 years? Is the solicitor going to fight to prevent that?

Is Donaldson's solicitor the same one that "Steakknife" may have consulted? Someone seems to be protecting Freddie Scappaticci from an early demise or from "unfortunate" accidents.

Running Bing

meldrew wrote:

EVERYTHING sinn fein do is carefully orchestrated to get the maximun publicity and this is no exception

Look its well established that sinn fein are hard to trust and fair enough I can see why many people dont believe a word out of their mouths. But british security forces are just as bad. Im sure this incident is only the tip of the iceberg. When the news of the spy ring broke everybody cited it as further proof that sf cant be trusted so why isnt this incident being treated the same for british intelligence? How can we believe anything they tell us. Afterall has any solid evidence been found linking the ira to the northern bank roberry? Nope just the word of senior security personnel? Why should they be believed any more than sf.

I find it very hard to take peoples views seriously when its clear they just have a personal vendetta against sinn fein and dont seem to care about the facts. How can this thread descend into the usual sinn fein bashing excercise with the content of the article?. Surely blame must be given to british intelligence for hampering democratic progress as it is so often given to sinn fein.

dahamsta

meldrew wrote:

EVERYTHING sinn fein do is carefully orchestrated to get the maximun publicity

I'm not fan of SF, but this differs from every other political party how exactly?

donaldson admitted that stormontgate was a sham.why did the british want to bring down stormont?

MrPudding

TomF wrote:

I don't understand why Gerry Adams advised Donaldson to consult with his solicitor. What's a solicitor going to tell him? That Donaldson's employment contract with Sinn Féin has a clause forbidding spying on the organisation for the British government? That Donaldson should look through the peep-hole in his front door before opening it to callers?

Wow, you are really funny!

Donaldson was "turned" by the security forces and effectively forced to become a spy. You have to presume that there was some kind of threat, legal or otherwise, made against him in order to compell him to turn. I don't think that given this and the whole spy ring debacle that it is unreasonable to seek legal advice.

Further, do you have information on what is in his contract? Perhaps there is a "conduct unbecoming of a SF worker" clause. There could be any number of reasons why a legal consultation might be required.

MrP

Victor

Cork wrote:

Look how fast the shinners moved in comparisson to the murder of Robert McCartney.

Thats hard to say, seeing as Stormontgate has been brewing for years.

Babybing wrote:

I find it very hard to take peoples views seriously when its clear they just have a personal vendetta against sinn fein and dont seem to care about the facts.

ASre you talking about boardsies, Donaldson or Securocrats.

ghostdancer

Deleted User wrote:

donaldson admitted that stormontgate was a sham.why did the british want to bring down stormont?

that's what i'm wondering aswell, i'm finding it hard to get my head round it all.

tommy gorman said on RTE last night that Paisley has been refusing his security briefings that he's entitled to (due to being part of the privy council now), because he knew of what was going on, but didn't want to have formal confirmation of it, so as to not put himself in a position where he was aware that it was part of a british plot to bring down the assembly.

also, someone I know heavily involved in NI politics, said that Special Branch were going to name his an informer within the next week or so, due to all the questions being asked, and what a mess the whole situation was for them, so he came clean to SF, as he knew it was coming out anyway. don't know how true that is, but just thought i''d mention it anyway....

Sand

Donaldson was "turned" by the security forces and effectively forced to become a spy. You have to presume that there was some kind of threat, legal or otherwise, made against him in order to compell him to turn.

When was he turned? Before or after the raid on Stormont? That might have been the threat, legal or otherwise, you refer to that compelled him to turn?

And Im still unclear as to why the evil securocrats suddenly sabotaged their own plot and threw SFIRA a publicity coup?

pete

Sand wrote:

When was he turned? Before or after the raid on Stormont? That might have been the threat, legal or otherwise, you refer to that compelled him to turn?

20 years ago, apparently as a result of his arrest in 1981.

And Im still unclear as to why the evil securocrats suddenly sabotaged their own plot and threw SFIRA a publicity coup?

Because the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing, possibly? As I understand it, it is considered something of a necessity that the identity of secret informers be kept, well... secret.

mike65

The Sinners must be a bit freaked by this, a senior figure unsuspected for 20 years. Its not like he's the first, how many more are there?

Mike.

MrPudding

Sand wrote:

When was he turned? Before or after the raid on Stormont? That might have been the threat, legal or otherwise, you refer to that compelled him to turn?

According to MrD himself he was "caught in a compromising position at a very vunerable point in his life." I might not have the words exactly but you will find the statement on the front page of the times.

MrP

deiseach

Cork wrote:

How many lives did this guy save by passing on information?

This was the same kind of logic to defend Brian Nelson, who conspired to commit murder to, er, prevent people being murdered.

I would say the answer to your question is: none. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it is a reasonable assumption

Sand

Because the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing, possibly? As I understand it, it is considered something of a necessity that the identity of secret informers be kept, well... secret.

Well A) British Intelligence was never shy about warning police away from people before. And it certainly is a necessity that secrets be kept secret so why would the evil securocrats reveal this secret. Allegedly they were threatening to blow his cover. Why?

The Baler

mike65 wrote:

The Sinners must be a bit freaked by this, a senior figure unsuspected for 20 years. Its not like he's the first, how many more are there?

Mike.

We should all be 'freaked out' about this.

It seems quite crazy that the IRA and their campaign in the north had so much success while all the time the British had their finger on the pulse all through the whole episode.

The British are guilty of terrorism by association and this follows up from the disgraceful outing of Nelson and the unresolved murder of Mr Scobie another tout from the FRU and RUC/PSNI.

The whole stormontgate thing is plain disgusting and the posters on this site who put forward the argument that Sinn Fein is the guilty party is simply ridiculous. The British and their stooges have murdered all in the name of 'protecting society' but their tactics are considered alright. Murder is murder no matter what side you are on!

IMO the only credible peace party in the north is SF as all the others (well maybe not the SDLP) seem to be only interested in maintaining Direct Rule.

I hope all those on here would look at the whole affair with an open mind.

Hagar

Victor wrote:

Politicly yes, morally, maybe not.

So politics of questionable morality are acceptable ?

It just makes me wonder who are the British moles in Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour?

It would be rash to think they don't exist.

pete

Sand wrote:

Well A) British Intelligence was never shy about warning police away from people before. And it certainly is a necessity that secrets be kept secret so why would the evil securocrats reveal this secret. Allegedly they were threatening to blow his cover. Why?

A) You do realise that it's quite possible that the handlers of such a prized informer kept his existence so secret that even their colleagues were not aware of his identity?

Because someone screwed up?

Cork

Hagar wrote:

It just makes me wonder who are the British moles in Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour?.

SF was the political wing of the terrorist/criminal IRA. Labour, FF and FG have followed democratic politics when the IRA were planting bombs in trash cans.

I am would not be suprised if the British Security forces had more ajents in SF.

BuffyBot

We should all be 'freaked out' about this.

It seems quite crazy that the IRA and their campaign in the north had so much success while all the time the British had their finger on the pulse all through the whole episode.

So you're claiming that an informant in SF should have passed information on to the British Government about a completely unconnected terrorist organisation - which, of course is what the IRA is....isn't it?

The Baler

BuffyBot wrote:

So you're claiming that an informant in SF should have passed information on to the British Government about a completely unconnected terrorist organisation - which, of course is what the IRA is....isn't it?

No, I am not saying what you are implying. I know Sinn Fein is a completely democratic organisation with close links to the Irish Republican Army. That does not meanthey are the one and same organisation. The DUP have had close links to a number of terrorist loyalist organisations i.e Ulster Resistance, UVF, etc. Does that make Rev Ian a terrorist? No it doesn't so please don't go trying to twist my words Buffy. Merci Beacoup!

I was trying to say, unclear and all as it was, that the British Government has a lot to explain with regard to their dirty war in the north.

Does Tony Blair really know what is going on up there? Has he given too much freedom to his security heads in the NIO? I believe that the rotten eggs in the security forces in the north now need to be pulled back and checked.
Maybe their work hepled save lives in the past but in this age of Peace do we really need a force within a force contiuning a war that is over? I think not.

Sinn Fein and the SDLP are the only parties in the north which want power sharing all the others can't get to grips with the fact that we need to move forward and forget the past.

ronbyrne2005

adams and co. could have known he was a spy and he could have been bluffing the brits .i dont know what the true story is up i dont think its a simple case of sinn fein man was brit spy.