Belcamp College, Malahide Road.

Archeron

I;ve heard recently that Belcamp College, a well known secondary school on the Malahide road, and all its land has been sold for development, and that it is due to be torn down. As an ex student here, I'm familiar with this college and its buildings including the manor house and church.
Does anyone know what the faith of the actual house and church is? I can understand the boarding school part being demolished, but they wouldnt be able to destroy the house or the church...would they??? The church alone is one of the most amazing buildings I've ever seen in this city.

Anyone who knows where i can find out about this, I'd be grateful.

Aedh Baclamh

Although I'm not familar with the particular building, I find it typical of society today. Houses are going up left, right and center..it's a sad reality. It's all about the $$$ these days Archeron.

Xylophonic

Archeron wrote:

I;ve heard recently that Belcamp College, a well known secondary school on the Malahide road, and all its land has been sold for development, and that it is due to be torn down. As an ex student here, I'm familiar with this college and its buildings including the manor house and church.
Does anyone know what the faith of the actual house and church is? I can understand the boarding school part being demolished, but they wouldnt be able to destroy the house or the church...would they??? The church alone is one of the most amazing buildings I've ever seen in this city.

Anyone who knows where i can find out about this, I'd be grateful.

Gannon Homes bought the land last year and they are to knock down the school building's that were built in 1969. the Georgian House, Bridge, Tower and Church will remain. All the rest will dissappear, and the lake is to be cleaned up and the forests will stay!

I am in the school in 6th year now and it's a weird atmosphere with no first years...

Archeron

thanks Xylophonic. I'm an ex student of the place myself, i can imagine how weird it must seem now. Say hello to Mr Scannell and all the others!! Aah, memories. I'm delighted to hear the church and house are staying though, i remember many summer days playing snooker in the house, and the church really is a special place.

Victor

Hmmm increase the local population and reduce the number of schools. :rolleyes:

archy

I am a local historian who attended belcamp 1970-1975. Belcamp occupies a very special place in my memory. Only yesterday evening I visited the grounds and its looking forlorn and abandoned. I am doing a documentary on Belcamp, and I hope to get inside to film my old class room , the tuck shop, study hall(old building) the new school was built around 72/73. Our class started the famous school disco in 1973. Belcamp hall is one of the 4 great belcamp houses, only 2 standing now, the college , Belcamp hall , and the other is Belcamp hutchinson , down balgriffin lane on the left as you go to inisfails gaa club. Tom 'o'shea my english teacher wrote a book about it. belcamp forever, or forever Belcamp not sure.

last evening on my visit I found it surreal standing on the front steps explaining to the afican non english speaking security guard about the time my raleigh chopper was stolen from a spot close by!

One memory from mass in the chapel every thursay morning, two of us had to serv the mass, with your class mates looking on. Father casey "scratch" he was called said the mass. the joke was to count how many times he scratched himself during the mass. The servers could hear the counting and the laughing would come. Retribution however was swift. Father Barret, ned barret would be waiting for you in the Sacristy,to box the ears off you! more anon. gerry cooley

Archeron

Father Barrett, now theres a memory.

Archy, I studied the local Belcamp houses before as part of a young historian project. The book "green fields gone forever" was a wealth of inforrmation on the area. Definitely worth picking up if its still available.

CaptainSmith

Speaking from a strictly professionaly point of view (normally I use these forums as an escape from work), contact the local council for the area, I recently did on such an issue, and very soon alot of senoir councils got interested in my problems with a local house. The sad thing with Belcamp is that it was a spiralling decline, of what was once, one of the most prestigious schools in Dublin, unfortunate to see it go, be try and follow it up if you are really interested in it. It is surprisenly easy to stop things from happening if you can prove historical or structural significance in a building.

Best Of Luck

DELALLIO

Ned Barrett and Biller Casey.
They were names I had forgottn. Amazing. You must be nearly as old as me.

archy wrote: »

I am a local historian who attended belcamp 1970-1975. Belcamp occupies a very special place in my memory. Only yesterday evening I visited the grounds and its looking forlorn and abandoned. I am doing a documentary on Belcamp, and I hope to get inside to film my old class room , the tuck shop, study hall(old building) the new school was built around 72/73. Our class started the famous school disco in 1973. Belcamp hall is one of the 4 great belcamp houses, only 2 standing now, the college , Belcamp hall , and the other is Belcamp hutchinson , down balgriffin lane on the left as you go to inisfails gaa club. Tom 'o'shea my english teacher wrote a book about it. belcamp forever, or forever Belcamp not sure.

last evening on my visit I found it surreal standing on the front steps explaining to the afican non english speaking security guard about the time my raleigh chopper was stolen from a spot close by!

One memory from mass in the chapel every thursay morning, two of us had to serv the mass, with your class mates looking on. Father casey "scratch" he was called said the mass. the joke was to count how many times he scratched himself during the mass. The servers could hear the counting and the laughing would come. Retribution however was swift. Father Barret, ned barret would be waiting for you in the Sacristy,to box the ears off you! more anon. gerry cooley

lost marbles

just came across this thread and i was in belcamp from 76 till 80 and the two names casey and barrett i remember well had barrett for maths .you always knew there was trouble ahead when he put the leather on the desk at the start of class .had casey for english [scratch] fr archibold and his wringing of the hands and those immortal words "yous think yous are the best things since sliced bread " the winters when the pond froze over and betting the lads to go out on the ice .going to the forest at lunch and coming back covered in mud .the smell of the kitchens my class was over them and the soup they sold at lunch [yuk] that nice little church hope it stays .its a bloody shame that the school is gone[ as it to me anyway ]was one of the best but on the wrong side of the city if you get my meaning some fond and not so fond memories of belcamp
i pass the place alot and its all run down and sealed off .hope that poster did make that doc and if you did could you please let me know i will pm you
thanks for the memories

DELALLIO

Hi Lost Marbles
You had the same teachers as me and the same years. We must have been in the same class. I too pass Belcamp quite a bit. It is a shame to see it closed. Having said that, I would not like to repeat the time I spent there.

Regards

Delallio

lost marbles

DELALLIO wrote: »

Hi Lost Marbles
You had the same teachers as me and the same years. We must have been in the same class. I too pass Belcamp quite a bit. It is a shame to see it closed. Having said that, I would not like to repeat the time I spent there.

Regards

Delallio

how are you doing delallio maybe you are right in what you say. its these rose tinted glasses of mine and the search for my youth. if the truth be known i probably hated the place i was in 1L the L meaning we done latin with mr garvey .now some mod here is going to pull me on this but we are talking history here .guys i remember were a kelly ,garvey,brady,delaney,maybe you were in my class .belcamp had all the marks of one of the top boarding schools in its day and still could hold its own in todays ireland but for its location and the fact it closed down the boarding end of things even though i got out after the inter cert some of the teachers did leave a good impression on me
regards
marbles

Belmayner

Archeron wrote: »

I;ve heard recently that Belcamp College, a well known secondary school on the Malahide road, and all its land has been sold for development, and that it is due to be torn down. As an ex student here, I'm familiar with this college and its buildings including the manor house and church.
Does anyone know what the faith of the actual house and church is? I can understand the boarding school part being demolished, but they wouldnt be able to destroy the house or the church...would they??? The church alone is one of the most amazing buildings I've ever seen in this city.

Anyone who knows where i can find out about this, I'd be grateful.

Just moved into the D13 area and was horrified to hear that the Belcamp site is to be developed for yet more apartments. To be honest i thought the school was still running, but it appears planning permission has been in place for more than a year now. Does anyone have an up date??
Would love to get a look around the place before it's all changed but it seems to be all fenced off

dwade

AH Belcamp Collage, the "Good" auld days.

I can still hear Mr. O' Shea shouting "WHERE THE BLOODY HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, THIS BELCAMP!! NOT A HOLIDAY CAMP".
we used to wind him up just to hear him say that.


Peaple still laugh when i tell them we have computers class with Mr. Garvey, with not a computer to be be seen,I don't even think the the snowey haird secterary had one.

but I tell ye Dempsey put on teh best Chrimbo show onte northside every year.

the "rose tinted" Good old day not a care in the world.

silly1

dwade wrote: »

AH Belcamp Collage, the "Good" auld days.

I can still hear Mr. O' Shea shouting "WHERE THE BLOODY HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, THIS BELCAMP!! NOT A HOLIDAY CAMP".
we used to wind him up just to hear him say that.


Peaple still laugh when i tell them we have computers class with Mr. Garvey, with not a computer to be be seen,I don't even think the the snowey haird secterary had one.

but I tell ye Dempsey put on teh best Chrimbo show onte northside every year.

the "rose tinted" Good old day not a care in the world.

And here's some more Drac, Archie, Biddy

burrenman

Thaes names bring back a lot of memories. Does anyone remember Father John Archibald. Used to teach latin before becoming the headmaster

archy1

Hello all past pupils, Archy here, I had to re-register, long story, anyway it looks like there will be a farewell bash next summer for Belcamp. Early stages yet, I have been visiting in the past few days. Met Pat McVieigh who is currently Head Master. As I explained earlier on the page I am currently writing a local history book , centering in Santry Village and spreading out to take in the 4 Belcamps. I am an Ex pupil of Belcamp , class of 75.
Interviewed Pierce today, Maintainence man at Belcamp for the past 55 years, I got a great tour and took over 200 photos including the chapel, the Tuck Shop, and the library in the new school where the famous school disco's took place. I could not believe how small it is.

did you know that Daniel Day lewis filmed scenes from the boxer at Belcamp, and also Kevin Spacey in Ordinary Decent Criminal. I hope to have a hour long DVD available as a keepsake for all attendees of the farewell party. Loads of Videos,photos , a few guest past pupils, very much reeling in the years feel to it.

ps Father Archibald is alive and well, as is Father Ned "by the lord harry" Barrett.

MarchDub

archy1 wrote: »

As I explained earlier on the page I am currently writing a local history book , centering in Santry Village and spreading out to take in the 4 Belcamps.

I am very interested in your book - when do you expect to publish?

I grew up in that area and used to play around the area near the Cadbury factory before all those houses were built. I am sure you know the book "Green Fields Gone forever" which is really great. I am especially interested in the old house that used to be across the road from the C of I church near the small Santry River. It was abandoned and we children called it the haunted house and would spent hours playing around it. I am curious about its history - are you researching that?

DELALLIO

archy1 wrote: »

Hello all past pupils, Archy here, I had to re-register, long story, anyway it looks like there will be a farewell bash next summer for Belcamp. Early stages yet, I have been visiting in the past few days. Met Pat McVieigh who is currently Head Master. As I explained earlier on the page I am currently writing a local history book , centering in Santry Village and spreading out to take in the 4 Belcamps. I am an Ex pupil of Belcamp , class of 75.
Interviewed Pierce today, Maintainence man at Belcamp for the past 55 years, I got a great tour and took over 200 photos including the chapel, the Tuck Shop, and the library in the new school where the famous school disco's took place. I could not believe how small it is.

did you know that Daniel Day lewis filmed scenes from the boxer at Belcamp, and also Kevin Spacey in Ordinary Decent Criminal. I hope to have a hour long DVD available as a keepsake for all attendees of the farewell party. Loads of Videos,photos , a few guest past pupils, very much reeling in the years feel to it.

ps Father Archibald is alive and well, as is Father Ned "by the lord harry" Barrett.

Hi Archy 1
That sounds interesting. I think it would be worth attending.

DELALLIO

archy1

Unfortunately MarchDub the Malahide Road is a bit outside my area, but I can tell you that the house you refer to was called St Brendan's, Ordinance Survey Map 1936/37. Douglas Appleyard gave a talk on the Malahide Road during Hertitage week in August I seem to remember him talking about St Brendan's. Watch out for him next year for heritage week. His book is back in print he was selling them at his talk.

MarchDub

archy1 wrote: »

Unfortunately MarchDub the Malahide Road is a bit outside my area, but I can tell you that the house you refer to was called St Brendan's, Ordinance Survey Map 1936/37. Douglas Appleyard gave a talk on the Malahide Road during Hertitage week in August I seem to remember him talking about St Brendan's. Watch out for him next year for heritage week. His book is back in print he was selling them at his talk.

Thanks for this - I got a copy of the map from a friend and see it marked. I am trying to find contact info for Appleyard. If you have something could you PM me?

fantas

Archy,

I went to Belcamp from Limerick as a boarder in the sixties for three years. I very much enjoyed my time there, especially the sport and developed a love for Dublin which I still have today.

Your DVD sounds very interesting. Is it possible to obtain it? I have visited the college several times in the past few decades and was very much saddened by the news that it is to be sold for development!

Best Wishes Fantas

archy1 wrote: »

Hello all past pupils, Archy here, I had to re-register, long story, anyway it looks like there will be a farewell bash next summer for Belcamp. Early stages yet, I have been visiting in the past few days. Met Pat McVieigh who is currently Head Master. As I explained earlier on the page I am currently writing a local history book , centering in Santry Village and spreading out to take in the 4 Belcamps. I am an Ex pupil of Belcamp , class of 75.
Interviewed Pierce today, Maintainence man at Belcamp for the past 55 years, I got a great tour and took over 200 photos including the chapel, the Tuck Shop, and the library in the new school where the famous school disco's took place. I could not believe how small it is.

did you know that Daniel Day lewis filmed scenes from the boxer at Belcamp, and also Kevin Spacey in Ordinary Decent Criminal. I hope to have a hour long DVD available as a keepsake for all attendees of the farewell party. Loads of Videos,photos , a few guest past pupils, very much reeling in the years feel to it.

ps Father Archibald is alive and well, as is Father Ned "by the lord harry" Barrett.

opeldave

Hi All,
I also attended Becamp College in the 90s.
I am appaled with the prospect of it being developed & hopefully with the current economic climate it falls through.

Id be very interested in the DVD whenever its avilable.
Does anybody know where I can buy "Green Fields Gone Forever"?
I Know Pierce Doyle well (100% gentlman) his grandson Nathdaniel was in my class from 92-98.
Are there still students in there?

All the best

David:D

kila_lynsey

archy1 wrote: »

Hello all past pupils, Archy here, I had to re-register, long story, anyway it looks like there will be a farewell bash next summer for Belcamp. Early stages yet, I have been visiting in the past few days. Met Pat McVieigh who is currently Head Master. As I explained earlier on the page I am currently writing a local history book , centering in Santry Village and spreading out to take in the 4 Belcamps. I am an Ex pupil of Belcamp , class of 75.
Interviewed Pierce today, Maintainence man at Belcamp for the past 55 years, I got a great tour and took over 200 photos including the chapel, the Tuck Shop, and the library in the new school where the famous school disco's took place. I could not believe how small it is.

did you know that Daniel Day lewis filmed scenes from the boxer at Belcamp, and also Kevin Spacey in Ordinary Decent Criminal. I hope to have a hour long DVD available as a keepsake for all attendees of the farewell party. Loads of Videos,photos , a few guest past pupils, very much reeling in the years feel to it.

ps Father Archibald is alive and well, as is Father Ned "by the lord harry" Barrett.

Hi Archy,
I am an author and photographer and I would love to photograph the stained glass windows by Harry Clarke in Belcamp chapel. Do you have contact details for anyone who could give me permission to photography the windows? It would be much appreciated. I have been trying for several months to find someone who can give me the go ahead to take the photos. Best wishes for the new year!

An gal gréine

With the country now in recession, will the new development be going ahead in Belcamp? Maybe there's still time for the Dept. of Education to take the place out of the hands of the developers (if they now have cold feet), and continue on as a school.
Some teachers not already mentioned were, Maxi, Shag-dad and Batman. Archy should remember them as he was in the same class as me ('75).
Tomo was fond of reminding me how lucky I was as I gazed out at the lake from the classroom window, that "the Yanks would pay a fortune to have your seat and your view".
Archie would sometimes ask a trembling student if bychance he had taken a wrong turn on his way - that maybe Butlin's HOLIDAY camp (then in Co. Meath) was his real destination and not BELCAMP !
Would be great to have one last look at the place if it's defo closing.
An Gal Gréine.

kila_lynsey

Hi all,

Has anyone been out in Belcamp lately? Just wondering if there is security out there or if it's possible to go into the old chapel. I'd love to call out there and take a look around.

lost marbles

kila_lynsey wrote: »

Hi all,

Has anyone been out in Belcamp lately? Just wondering if there is security out there or if it's possible to go into the old chapel. I'd love to call out there and take a look around.

i pass by the place quite alot and it is all fenced off and security notices inplace .security lights at night aswell so id say it would be a no no just to walk up and try getting in .
what if you contacted the oblete fathers in inchicore dublin and asked them the situtation on gaining access

lost marbles

it would be a great idea for the government to take over the whole site and with all the talk going around about "retraining " turn it into a F,A,S .
or something [plenty of land for horticulture etc ,driving ,etc] plus the buildings have ample space for class work .
just a thought
but logic dos,nt seem to go in this country atm

zignzag

belcamp. . . *tear*

finished up only in 2006 and have to honestly say that most of the time spent there was well enjoyed! education-wise towards the end, it mightn't have been the finest! but never have i heard of or did i think it was possible for a school to hold such a tight bond between students and teachers.

i loved this school and as many people in my year and the trips were great craic!! ms feran ("mammy") always lukn out for people even though it didn always seem it at the time! n mr corbet. . . enough said!!!

there definatley IS some sort of shindig gonna be happening although a date hasnt been decided as yet.ms feran has also asked that anyone interested in going to it contact herself and if you have any ideas on things we could do... bands, food, music etc.... to drop her a line at the address..

Belcamp College,
Malahide Road,
Dublin 17.

or to phone and leave contact details with the current secretary : 01-8461275

Looking forward to seeing you there!!

belcamos best

class of 2006

haha i have to agree with zignzag... loved the days there, would go back in a heart beat, like if i could do 1st to 6th year all over again i so would... its going to be a sad day when they break her down

cant wait till the whole reunion thing gets sorted! should be a good oul shindig!!... hope to see all the past pupils that i would have know.... will be good to catch up!! see ya all there... cant wait to see the oul Scannell fella (if he is still alive) and mammy Fearn, what a legend!

stef del

Hello all,
if theres gonna be a party iam there!! i was in belcamp college with my 2 brothers brian and joey around 1985,the school should stay right where it is,best place, and id go back tomorrow if i could,teachers are nuts but pull it off well,maxi,corbett...even dempsey ... to name a few..lol..
well done to brendan glesson, i must say, and maybe being the big star he is might help keep this place going who knows.Ive got great memories of both mates and teachers,if anyone remembers me or my brothers
then e-mail me libra3tech@yahoo.co.uk
i work as an electronics engineer in radio broadcasting in uk. my brother brian went on to become a microsoft engineer,and sadly our brother joey passed away in 1992 3rd march aged just 19.
Best regards to all from Stephen Delahunty.
ps would like to hear from peter rossiter,martin smith,anto cray,stephen larkin,paul bonney,colin traynor, or anyone else from our class in the CLASS D CATAGORY LOL

Belmayner

Hi Kila did you manage to find out if it's possible to get in for a look. I'd be fascinated to have a look, especially at the Church. I heard that the Church was to be retained as part of the new development and used as a local Church for the D13 area. But now that everything is on hold it would be a shame to see it deteriorate....

archy1

Just got word that an open last day of Sorts for past Pupils will take place on College grounds, takes place on 27th April...please spread the word. Gerry Cooley Class of 75.

archy1

Folks just to let you know , there will be an OpenDay/Goodbye day on the above date on the grounds at Belcamp. Format not sure, spread the word.

Gerry Cooley Class 75

DublinLost

Thanks to Ken Garvey I was let in to take pictures of the Stained Glass Windows (Jan 2008) for some people who's family donated the windows back in the day. Mr Doyle was and is a true gentleman.

I was disgusted to see the Church Had been De-Consecrated and the altar removed and sent to the UK as well as all the seating. This would suggest to me that there is no such plans to have a Community Church there. The last rumour I heard was that Gerry Ganon himself was to move into the house?? Truly a house fit for a member of a Golden Circle??

Anyway, I got a good few pictures of the windows, the gilded scripture drawings including the J. Clarke & Sons insignia, the Stations of the Cross and of the House itself.

I don't blame Gannon for buying or the Oblates for selling- I blame the communities of Belcamp/Darndale and surrounding areas for sleeping on their watch- this should Never have Happened!

lost marbles

DublinLost wrote: »

Thanks to Ken Garvey I was let in to take pictures of the Stained Glass Windows (Jan 2008) for some people who's family donated the windows back in the day. Mr Doyle was and is a true gentleman.

I was disgusted to see the Church Had been De-Consecrated and the altar removed and sent to the UK as well as all the seating. This would suggest to me that there is no such plans to have a Community Church there. The last rumour I heard was that Gerry Ganon himself was to move into the house?? Truly a house fit for a member of a Golden Circle??

Anyway, I got a good few pictures of the windows, the gilded scripture drawings including the J. Clarke & Sons insignia, the Stations of the Cross and of the House itself.


I don't blame Gannon for buying or the Oblates for selling- I blame the communities of Belcamp/Darndale and surrounding areas for sleeping on their watch- this should Never have Happened!

any chance you could photobucket them and give a link
would love to see them
thanks

DublinLost

lost marbles wrote: »

any chance you could photobucket them and give a link
would love to see them
thanks

Put those photos up as requested.

Mindful that these images have been resized for uploading.

New to boards.ie so hope I don't get kicked for putting up a link.

If there is a particular image you'd like to see the original of let me know.

http://s727.photobucket.com/albums/ww280/darndale/

arybvtcw0eolkf

May I suggest posting about this over on the Dublin City Forum, it may get a lot more view's.

lost marbles

DublinLost wrote: »

Put those photos up as requested.

Mindful that these images have been resized for uploading.

New to boards.ie so hope I don't get kicked for putting up a link.

If there is a particular image you'd like to see the original of let me know.

http://s727.photobucket.com/albums/ww280/darndale/

thank you very much for that .
the old place is.nt as run down as appears from the main road .
brought back a few memories alright .
i wonder what the plans are for it now ?
they could,nt/would,nt demolish the church

Belmayner

DublinLost wrote: »

Put those photos up as requested.

Mindful that these images have been resized for uploading.

New to boards.ie so hope I don't get kicked for putting up a link.

If there is a particular image you'd like to see the original of let me know.

http://s727.photobucket.com/albums/ww280/darndale/

Many thanks for the photos, they are a really brilliant record. The church is outstanding. We were told in Belmayne some time ago that our weekly mass in the "information centre" would eventually move to the church in Belcamp ....doesn't look like that might happen now, what a shame.
Cheers again for the link.

archy1

Folks Please spread the News, trying to arrange Near fm outside broadcast on the day.

There will be vox pop recordings mage on the day ...

I was part of the Class that started the 70's disco's in the study hall upstairs in 72, moved to the library the following year in 73i...


Sweet blockbuster was number one at the first disco...I think...

Belmayner

Hi Archy, Can you confirm the date in April for the Belcamp farewell as the 27th is a Monday?
Many thanks

archy1

Folks Date is 27TH April , Day is MONDAY....Sorry....6 of the best from Ned Barret! by the Lord Harry!

belcampprisoner

its shutting for good after leaving june 2009open day belcamp college 27th april 2009 there will be tea,photos,look around the school,and school band,meet former pupils and teachers and if you dont attend there will be detention and 6 of the bestand fr barett will box your ears its either at 10am 0r 11am until 2pm

belcampprisoner

its shutting for good after leaving june 2009open day belcamp college monday 27th april 2009 there will be tea,photos,look around the school,and school band,meet former pupils and teachers and if you dont attend there will be detention and 6 of the bestand fr barett will box your ears its either at 10am 0r 11am until 2pm

kila_lynsey

Hi all,

Is the open day still going ahead next Monday? Do you think it will be possible to take photos in the church on the day?

Thanks,
Kila

peadearo

Does anybody remember the lrish teacher called hitler and the maths teacher called batman and what about the english teacher called mrs o bric l heard she died in a car crash

peadearo

burrenman wrote: »

Thaes names bring back a lot of memories. Does anyone remember Father John Archibald. Used to teach latin before becoming the headmaster

I remember the nasty man well,is he still alive?

lost marbles

peadearo wrote: »

I remember the nasty man well,is he still alive?

enter the classroom
wringing the hands "yous all think yous are the best thing since sliced bread " and from under the robe came the leather
and placed on his desk .
oh those happy days

An gal gréine

Are you not mixin him up with one of the others? Archie never carried a leather. He did'nt need to!! He struck the fear of God into everybody by one shout of "Quick, fast, BUST YOURSELF".

lost marbles

An gal gréine wrote: »

Are you not mixin him up with one of the others? Archie never carried a leather. He did'nt need to!! He struck the fear of God into everybody by one shout of "Quick, fast, BUST YOURSELF".

come to think about it , maybe i am [sorry fr archi if you read this ]
but there was another teacher who was fond of the leather .
never done me any harm though at the time it frightened the sh1t out of me :eek: