Pornography is discriminating?

Vangelis

I'd like to know what lies behind the arguement that pornography is discrimination of women. How have feminists come to this conclusion?
And what about the men in pornography? Are men also being discriminated?

bagdaddy

If anything it is the men that are victims of this as they get paid far less.

simu

Wasn't this whole thing discussed a few months back? Do a search. This board isn't here for your basic education tbh.

Hobart

simu wrote:

Wasn't this whole thing discussed a few months back? Do a search. This board isn't here for your basic education tbh.

It seems that a search returns a similar subject was discussed some 7 months back. I have also taken the time to read the charter, and have not found a section marked Subjects less than 7 months old should not be discussed. I did, however, see a section on trolling, flaming and being stupid. Maybe you should have a read of it, and not be so fuking rude in your answers.

simu

Chill!

Hobart

I'm very chilled. Thank you.

simu

Here it is. How's that for helpful, huh?

Hobart

simu wrote:

Here it is. How's that for helpful, huh?

No. I had already pointed out that a thread had been posted about this 7 months ago. What exactly is your probelm here?

simu

Hobart wrote:

No. I had already pointed out that a thread had been posted about this 7 months ago. What exactly is your probelm here?

Well, I didn't think Vangelis would get much of a response to this thread given that many regular posters on here discussed the effects of porn in a fair amount of detail in that older thread and might not feel like repeating themselves.

Hobart

simu wrote:

Well, I didn't think Vangelis would get much of a response to this thread given that many regular posters on here discussed the effects of porn in a fair amount of detail in that older thread and might not feel like repeating themselves.

Last time I looked I did not see your name at the bottom of the board as a mod. Maybe you should leave the moderation, to the mods? I presume you reported the OP for having the timerity to post without having checked what exactly was posted over the last seven months? I guess so.

Well thank God we have you then, the champion of the "regular poster". Ridding in on her trusty steed to save the over exhausted "regular poster" from the boredom of repeating themselves. How did we ever cope without you. Go back to your comics, why don't you?

Cake Fiend

Discriminating? That doesn't really make sense . Do you mean exploiting? Degrading perhaps?

I suppose it's only natural that (male-centric) pornography would portray women as objects - men don't watch porn for mental stimulation or to find out about the featured women's personalities. We watch it for tits and ass, not to put too fine a point on it.

If you watch female-produced porn (produced for females that is; female-produced male-centric porn is about the same as male-produced) you'll find a lot more 'character development' (lol?) and maybe a bit of plot, because women (generally, not a rule) tend to be more stimulated by imagination than the in-your-face graphic action preferred by blokes. I don't think you'll find many women into bukkake porn! :eek:

Real lesbian porn is boring

Cake Fiend

Hobart wrote:

Maybe you should leave the moderation, to the mods?

If you saw litter all over the place in front of your house, would you just leave it to the binmen to clean up?

Hobart

Sico wrote:

If you saw litter all over the place in front of your house, would you just leave it to the binmen to clean up?

No, the street cleaners. But enough of these interesting analagies. Back to the subject at hand.

lazydaisy

I think a lot of comes from theories around the male gaze and representations of women in art and media ranging from mainstream to high art to porn. So this is how women have come to be "objectified" as the widely held assumption for so long is that men are more visual. Porn has changed and while still mostly profiting from a male driven market they are also making porn for women, both lesbian and hetero and this has been a growing market.

If you notice, men are becoming just as scrutinised by the female gaze as women are by men. There is more pressure on them to be fit, to wax their hair and to be well groomed. As porn has changed so has feminist perspectives on it.

The challenge to this debate is first agreeing on what you call pornography. And then deciding if it is discriminatory against women.

Good luck!

zenith

Simu, that's flaming.

Warning, warning.

tj-music.com

Sico wrote:

I don't think you'll find many women into bukkake porn! :eek:

Pity, isn´t it

Nevyn

Well arent you ment to give you opinions not just post random questions?
and shouldn't they be your own opinions and not vast tracts of 'research' from else where ?

Feminsts didn't aruge that is was discriminating but that it was degrading.
It still for the most cases portray very idealised images of what a woman is ment to look at.

Wether or not the work pratices in the pornography industry discrininate against
either gender you would have to do some research.

simu

You can't lump all feminists in together either. There's a whole spectrum of feminist views on pornography. Brief discussion here

Hobart

simu wrote:

You can't lump all feminists in together either. There's a whole spectrum of feminist views on pornography. Brief discussion here

I don't see any discussion there. Simply a wiki article, with references for clarification, am I missing something?

Sangre

Well considering that Jenna Jameson is a billionaire I'm not going to feel too bad for being degraded.
The women have a hard to achieve body ideal and are paid accordingly.

Vangelis

Allright I've had it! In the beginning I was criticised and verbally mauled by posters here for creating a thread, asking questions and then having my own opinions/answers to those questions. People didn't want that. They wanted to feed me with their own answers. I was not allowed to have my own opinion. What was the point with making a thread then?

Now! I need to have answers of my own. I refuse to be harrassed for not having answers to my questions this time.

Make up your minds!!!!!! :mad:

I don't like porn, I think it's impure, but I want to familiarise myself with what the different opinions are as to whether is discriminating or not.

Sangre

Post a question. Give your opinion. Argue it if necessary.

If you're not strong enough in your convinctions to post them and face criticisms then maybe you shouldn't post.

Hagar

Sangre wrote:

Well considering that Jenna Jameson is a billionaire.

Sweeping, unsubstatiated statement. Can you back this up please?
Bank account details, home phone number, address etc.

Vangelis

Sangre wrote:

Post a question. Give your opinion. Argue it if necessary.

If you're not strong enough in your convinctions to post them and face criticisms then maybe you shouldn't post.

I cannot post my opinions, which are all based on the Bible.
Christian views are not welcome in a Humanistic forum.

Gandhi

Hagar wrote:

Sweeping, unsubstatiated statement. Can you back this up please?
Bank account details, home phone number, address etc.

Contact details for Sangre or for Jenna?

Shazbot

Well Vangelis , from what I've noticed over your past few threads is that you either (a) start a topic and make your views known , and when someone crticises them you keep asking more random questions straying further from the original topic.
or (b) Just bring up a topic and ask for other peoples opinions ( as in this thread ) without giving your own. You expect to be educated from this thread but this isnt what the humanities forum is about.

simu

Vangelis wrote:

I cannot post my opinions, which are all based on the Bible.
Christian views are not welcome in a Humanistic forum.

This forum is only called humanities - you certainly don't have to be a professed humanist to post in them. You can say you stick to the Bible's views on pornography if you want but possibly, others won't agree with it but that's life.

Me, I don't think porn is bad per se - it depends on the implementation. You could have porn films where people are raped and so on which would obviously be abusive but you could also have porn where people were enjoying themselves freely and expressing their sexuality too and personally, I don't see the harm in the latter type. I gather anti-porn feminists focused more on the first type. Andrea Dworkin, for example. But I think her views are more a reflection of gender relations in her time and that they become less relevant as men and women begin to have more equality.

solas

Vangelis, I was just wondering and I don't mean to be offensive I'm genuinely curious, are you aspergers or a.d.d?
<edit> I would have asked in the psychology forum but I know you can't respond there.

Nevyn

Vangelis wrote:

I don't like porn, I think it's impure, but I want to familiarise myself with what the different opinions are as to whether is discriminating or not.

It is abit of why should we share our views if you won't share yours I guess.
I do respect your christain point of view on this and the fact you are looking for toher opinions. but I am confused by what you mean by the term discriminating

discriminating

adj 1: showing or indicating careful judgment and discernment especially in matters of taste; "the discriminating eye of the connoisseur" [ant: undiscriminating]
2: marked by the ability to see or make fine distinctions; "discriminate judgments"; "discriminate people" [syn: discriminate] [ant: indiscriminate]
3: having or demonstrating ability to recognize or draw fine distinctions; "an acute observer of politics and politicians"; "incisive comments"; "icy knifelike reasoning"; "as sharp and incisive as the stroke of a fang"; "penetrating insight"; "frequent penetrative observations" [syn: acute, incisive, keen, knifelike, penetrating, penetrative, piercing, sharp]

definations take from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discriminating

David19

I believe Vangelis is from another country and English may not be her first language. I think that might explain the usage of the word discriminating. I presume she meant degrading. I could be wrong though.

Sangre

Just google Jenna Jameson billionaire. Think shes a dollar billionaire. Thought there was only 3 sterling female billionaires (oprah, marta and jk rowling). Not sure though.

stormkeeper

solas wrote:

Vangelis, I was just wondering and I don't mean to be offensive I'm genuinely curious, are you aspergers or a.d.d?
<edit> I would have asked in the psychology forum but I know you can't respond there.

Where'd you get that impression from?


And seeing as I posted in here... I don't think pronography is discriminating to women. The way I figure it, the woman chooses to do it for the most part, so if she wants to do it, then it's her choice. Same goes for me.

Nevyn

David19 wrote:

I believe Vangelis is from another country and English may not be her first language. I think that might explain the usage of the word discriminating. I presume she meant degrading. I could be wrong though.

Well I was just asking for clarities sake not to have a go.

David19

Thaedydal wrote:

Well I was just asking for clarities sake not to have a go.

I know. I didn't mean to imply you were having a go A few people were wondering about it.

solas

kennett wrote:

Where'd you get that impression from?

she has a tendency to think outside the box, independant thinkers aren't very popular here at boards.ie.
That and her interest in psychology has made me curious, although

I believe Vangelis is from another country and English may not be her first language.

this might explain it.

stormkeeper

solas wrote:

she has a tendency to think outside the box, independant thinkers aren't very popular here at boards.ie.

I'd love to know why independent thinkers aren't very popular here...

That and her interest in psychology has made me curious, although this might explain it.

It could be both perhaps?

I wasn't aware that people with Asperger's Syndrome generally had an interest in psychology... kind of makes sense though, seeing as there's a lot of psychological aspects to the, er... disability.

Either way though, I should have been able to pick that up, seeing as I've got Asperger's myself, though I haven't seen very many of her posts, most likely because I stick to my little corner of the Paranormal boards.

I need to frequent more forums, methinks...

lazydaisy

Can we come to some agreement on what porn is?

I know that in the US what technically defines it in terms of film ratings is an erect penis.

Personally, I think this is a little silly.

A lecturer of mine defined it as sex without emotion or responsibility. I think that is a far more adult and mature perspective.

What do you guys think?

solas

<OT>

kennett wrote:

I'd love to know why independent thinkers aren't very popular here...

they pisss people off.

kennett wrote:

I wasn't aware that people with Asperger's Syndrome generally had an interest in psychology... kind of makes sense though, seeing as there's a lot of psychological aspects to the, er... disability.

I always thought of it as a condition.

kennett wrote:

most likely because I stick to my little corner of the Paranormal boards

safe with the rest of the weirdo's. :P<OT>

solas

laizydaisy wrote:

A lecturer of mine defined it as sex without emotion or responsibility. I think that is a far more adult and mature perspective.

What do you guys think?

I could go along with that.

Nevyn

lazydaisy wrote:

Can we come to some agreement on what porn is?

porn

n : creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire

stormkeeper

solas wrote:

<OT>
they pisss people off.

So much for intelligent debates then!

I always thought of it as a condition.

I was going to use that word, but then I remembered the uni's disability unit classes it as a "hidden disability". It didn't seem like the right word to use though. I've referred to it as a mental illness before as well. It's supposed that around 40% of those on the Autistic Spectrum have Dyslexia as well, so that could be another reason for the above?

safe with the rest of the weirdo's. :P<OT>

lol, yup

Anyway, on topic...


Laisydaisy: That seems like a good description of porn. An erect penis, in my opinion is nothing at the end of the day... it's when you start getting into the likes of sex, and all that other stuff where it becomes proper porn, though you do have softcore and hardcore, which further divides the issue...

Catsmokinpot

hmmm i would say its descriminating against women, but only because of some of the acts they commit, i mean ive seen some women who would have to suck on a dick thats been up her own ass and another womans ass, you dont see men having to lick womens assholes and come up with a brown nose, appart from that, they get payed a bucket load, its their decision, if you dont want to do something, that is your decision, in the end no-one makes you do it if you dont want to, that i would disagree with.

and as to wether or not its pure, i think there is worse stuff out there, child porn, snuff movies, faces of death videos. america, a bunch of adults having sex with eachother doesnt worry me at all.

Seraphina

i would consider it discrimminating in that its totally male-orientated and the women are just objects in it.
some women have to do disgusting things. i'm unsure if its entirely their own choice in some cases, with the amount of sex-slavery today its hard to tell.
not all of them make a bucket-load either, and tbh i reckon many of them are doing it because they cant find better work.
i dunno, i mean i am very much a sexually liberal kind of person, i enjoy it an awful lot, but i still dont get how women can 'enjoy' making porn. its difficult to imagine them physically enjoying being rammed every whichway by some butt-ugly guy.
i find it difficult to imagine why they do it, and i've come to the conclusion that most of them must be unhappy and seeking attention and affirmation that they are attractive.
i think its just the fact that the women are used that makes me uneasy sometimes, and how the websites proclaim their women as slutty and filthy as if it were a good thing. - i mean most guys wouldn't touch women like that with a 10ft barge pole in real life, why is it so attractive
but i cant deny that i enjoy it myself, i just wish there was less of the treating women like orifices and nothing more, i dont want bleedin romantic story lines though!!

tabatha

is it discrimminating for a woman to be beaten in a film or raped. no. she is acting. the same goes for porn. it is an actress playing a part and getting paid for it. nothing wrong with that. they arent been forced to do anything they dont want to. no real difference between jenna jameson and jodie foster if you ask me.

also, personally i dont see anything wrong with porn.

McGinty

I would agree that I don't like porn, but I also beleive that the women choose to do it, as it is easy money according to them, there are various programmes where the women state that they enjoy it and the luxury of money, however they end up debasing the emotional side of sex, as do their male counterparts. I don't believe that just women are objectified in porn, the men are as well. There is a huge increase in male strippers, and picture boys. Sex sells, even popstars (both male and female) are sexually objectified. One only has to look at the plethora of music videos with bits hanging out, and they border on the pornographic. I don't agree with bringing in laws against it, because it only makes it more titilating, if someone wants to do porn let them, however I refuse to watch it, and find I can't even watch MTV, etc any more because of this problem. I wouldn't care how skint or poor I was, I wouldn't do it, and I've been skint in my time.

simu

lazydaisy wrote:

A lecturer of mine defined it as sex without emotion or responsibility. I think that is a far more adult and mature perspective.

What do you guys think?

I don't think this works as a description of porn at all. Responsibility - some porn makers do ensure all participants are doing it voluntarily and that they practise safe sex etc - the end product is still porn. And I think porn can be emotional too - think of couples who are in love filming themselves and so on.

I'd say that porn is a sexual act portrayed in a medium of communications for the purpose of arousing any viewers.

lazydaisy

Simu- can you say what you consider arousal? Do you mean for men an erection and for women lubrication?

If a sex act is represented with emotion than maybe it isnt porn?

A couple filiming themselves may choose to represent just the sex act and not represent their feelings, or they may choose to represent their feelings also, or we as viewers may or may not recognise those signs of emotions and we as viewers may or may not get aroused by it. So are you saying that they way to tell whether or not something is porn is by checking your own physiological responses to it?

I do not find MTV in the least bit arousing. I find it tedious and boring. Though I do find a lot of it demeaning to women. One could argue that the women who are in them are participating in their own degradation.

simu

lazydaisy wrote:

Simu- can you say what you consider arousal? Do you mean for men an erection and for women lubrication?

Well, there are other observable signs of arousal in humans too - in crease in heart rate and so on and I guess you'd have to include any combination of these things.

If a sex act is represented with emotion than maybe it isnt porn?

A couple filiming themselves may choose to represent just the sex act and not represent their feelings, or they may choose to represent their feelings also, or we as viewers may or may not recognise those signs of emotions and we as viewers may or may not get aroused by it. So are you saying that they way to tell whether or not something is porn is by checking your own physiological responses to it?

Well, I think there is a degree of subjectivity, especially with stuff that's erotic or less blatantly sexual. But, on a practical level, there are stricter definitions for films, for example. There's a pretty clear line established between porn and non-porn movies but even this is being blured by films such as 9 songs and so on.

I do not find MTV in the least bit arousing. I find it tedious and boring. Though I do find a lot of it demeaning to women. One could argue that the women who are in them are participating in their own degradation.

I don't think MTV is demeaning to women especially. Sure, the rap videos with the women "shaking their bootys" seem a bit sad but they're just harmless fun imo. In fact, one could argue that programmes like Jackass show far more degradation of men but me, I just see it as silly slap-stick.

Vangelis

David19 wrote:

I believe Vangelis is from another country and English may not be her first language. I think that might explain the usage of the word discriminating. I presume she meant degrading. I could be wrong though.

I know the meaning of discriminating. Will people please stop using my nationality as an excuse... for nothing? I can speak and write English and I know the difference between discriminating and degrading. Feminists call pornography discriminating. The reason why I do not understand this is not because I don't know the meaning of the word discriminating, it is because I think it is a poor arguement and that the women in porn-industry are there because they want to be there. Not because they are being discriminated.

Solas, I don't know why you ask, but if you like to know then I might have a mild form of Asperger's. And do not - please - offend me and call me debilitated. That'd be discriminating. And please do not feel sorry for me either. That's just embarrassing. I'm fine.

One arguement in the Bible against porn is that one shall not commit adultery/fornication. If anyone would like to know. I'm saying this because I chose to, not because I expect anyone to agree. I just want it to be heard.
Looking at a woman to desire her, God says, is committing adultery with her in one's mind. It'll take some time for me to find the verse that states this and I'll find it if anyone is interested.

simu

Vangelis wrote:

I know the meaning of discriminating. Will people please stop using my nationality as an excuse... for nothing? I can speak and write English and I know the difference between discriminating and degrading. Feminists call pornography discriminating. The reason why I do not understand this is not because I don't know the meaning of the word discriminating, it is because I think it is a poor arguement and that the women in porn-industry are there because they want to be there. Not because they are being discriminated.

Oh, I'd assumed you meant degrading. Do you mean women are being discriminated against or in favour of or some such thing? Or that porn shows that there are differences between men and women???

One arguement in the Bible against porn is that one shall not commit adultery/fornication. If anyone would like to know. I'm saying this because I chose to, not because I expect anyone to agree. I just want it to be heard.
Looking at a woman to desire her, God says, is committing adultery with her in one's mind. It'll take some time for me to find the verse that states this and I'll find it if anyone is interested.

Well, what about porn made by a husband and wife for their own use then? Husbands are allowed to desire their wives, afaik.

solas

vangelis wrote:

Solas, I don't know why you ask, but if you like to know then I might have a mild form of Asperger's. And do not - please - offend me and call me debilitated. That'd be discriminating. And please do not feel sorry for me either. That's just embarrassing. I'm fine.

I have no intentions of calling anyone debilitated. I spent four years working with children in this area. Its just people here at boards can be very narrow minded and don't make allowances for other peoples perspectives, often because they just don't understand.
as an example, in the past people with dyslexia have been bastardised for their literary comprehnsion.