The love Ulster ( FAIR and the DUP ) to march in Dublin

Complete with Union jacks and marching bands!

Jeffrey Donaldson is working out the route with the Gardaí as we speak.
I find it strange that Willie Frazer of FAIR ( the organisation that campaigns for victims of the troubles on the unionist side ) might worry that a state visit from the Queen wouldnt go down well in Dublin considering people were falling over themselves to shake prince charlies hand the first time he was on Grafton st.
I wonder how this march will go down?

Sunday Times (11th December)
The anouncement of the 'Love-Ulster' parade to be held on Saturday 28th January along Dublin's O'Connell Street and on to Leinster House government buildings, will be led by northern victims of republican violence. It is designed to protest over issues concerning the peace process and against the British and Irish governments proposed legislation regarding on-the-runs (OTR) terrorists.
Willie Frazer (FAIR) is one of the organisers along with Jeffery Donaldson (DUP) are working out details with the Gardai over the route. Frazer said "If we can parade in Dublin with no bother what is the problem in Northern Ireland? This shows that people in the south are more tolerant and mature in their attitudes than northern nationalists. We also asked the Gardai if it would be a problem to fly a Union flag and they said it would not be a problem. The plan is that the bands will carry the Union Jack and the Ulster flag. We will show respect to the tricolour, but we will not be carriying it on the march," remarked Frazer.

In my opinion this is certainly a a bold move and I am glad that the organisers recognise the southern state as being tolerant of Unionist grieviences. When I think back to the times that I traveled north to be greated by "Ulster Says No" I would think that the tolerence being shown by people in the republic should be treated with gratitude. Love-Ulster might wish to be reminded that they will be visiting a country where the tricolour national flag is symbolic of the peace that exists between the orange and the green and does not represent the republicanisms that are associated with paramilitarism. If this rally is to be sucessful and a prelude to a state visit by HM the Queen Elizabeth, a lot of people in the republic will be watching to see how much dignity and respect can be applied by northern Unionists to our sovereignty.

Uthur

Quite a few posts on this one already

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054861835

Maskhadov

should be intresting :P

whiskeyman

It's worth comparing this to the proposed Orange Order march down Dawson St in May 2000.
That got the go-ahead but the Order pulled out.

A Dub in Glasgo

Last weekend in January, is that not the usual time for the Bloody Sunday commemorations? This group are only looking to stir the ****e and hope there is a reaction. Maybe there will be a Politics Forum meet during the day?

Should be an interesting day indeed.

Flex

:mad:

Sand

Should be a chance for parity of esteem to rear its head.

But seriously now, that parade will be attacked - if not in an organised fashion then certainly in a disorganised fashion. As someone has already said, the Love Ulster crowd will most likely be satisfied with getting permission for the march and then withdrawing. A bit of a rallying cry for their movement, topped up with "confirmation" that their traditions arent safe in a United Ireland. Two birds with the one stone.

Uthur

Uthur wrote:

Quite a few posts on this one already

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054861835

I rarely read the after hours board.

simu

It's an odd name for such a parade! Makes it seem like a piss-take.

dermo88

There are two groups in Ireland that make me turn and have neo nazi desires of removal, deportation, or better for the world and all, concerned, preferably final solution style removal from the face of the earth.

The first one are the Ulster Unionists. The second ones, well......I'll keep my mouth shut, and avoid being censored by the moderators. First letter T in official circles, but they are really K. Sometimes I walk past the places where they live whistling the Horst Wessel song. So they get the hint. So they know that their burnt tires, and **** strewn on streets is not welcome. Its hardly brave, but hopefully maybe there is one or two educated enough to know what that means.......it means get out of the country. Get out full stop. Because if I get a sniff of power, I will have the revenue inspectors, the dole inspectors, and every organ of the state persecuting you, until you know the best place is to live like normal people.

Ireland can welcome anybody, but if you are a Unionist, T/K, there is a place for you. Its called Innisvickalaun, Skellig Michael, Tuskar Rock, or the Saltee Islands. Stay there and die.

Otherwise, I don't care whether you are black, white, straight, gay, chinese, lesbian, disabled, or perfect. As long as you behave, welcome to Ireland.

Goodshape

dermo88 wrote:

The second ones, well......I'll keep my mouth shut, and avoid being censored by the moderators. First letter T in official circles, but they are really K. Sometimes I walk past the places where they live whistling the Horst Wessel song. So they get the hint. So they know that their burnt tires, and **** strewn on streets is not welcome. Its hardly brave, but hopefully maybe there is one or two educated enough to know what that means.......it means get out of the country. Get out full stop.

And I'll keep my mouth shut in the spirit of not attacking the poster.. but first initial O, second initial T.

Anyway.. it's pretty much boils the blood that they would come down here and march for Britain -- victims of the troubles indeed! (but shhh.. let's not mention the several hundreds of years before their trouble began.. sure, no one wants reminded of that).

It's an odd one to figure out a responce to. Seem's an obvious incitement to me but if it were to result in violence what would that show? That they are an oppressed people? Their point proven then?

Or we go out and cheer them on? Well, that's not going to happen.

Best bet is probably just to ignore them as much as possible.. let them have their march and head off home again -- but then what? is this showing that we're alright with it? Are we?

Mighty_Mouse

but hopefully maybe there is one or two educated enough to know what that means.......it means get out of the country

thank god for education!!!

topped up with "confirmation" that their traditions arent safe in a United Ireland.

that's exactly all their looking for. No meaningful willingness to engage with the south, build relationships bla bla bla.....................................

Maskhadov

I dont know if the parade is meant to be to have a go at people in Dublin (ROI). I think they are trying to put across the message that they want to have certain rights and any future all ireland nation might not respect that.

That was pretty hard hitting stuff dermo88.

breandan

Maskhadov wrote:

I dont know if the parade is meant to be to have a go at people in Dublin (ROI). I think they are trying to put across the message that they want to have certain rights and any future all ireland nation might not respect that.

Respect the oranger order?
Not on your life.
They are a fascist organization pure and simple (IMO) and Ill treat the same way as I would any other group that tries in intimidate a section of society because of its religion or ethnicity.

Nevyn

If Ireland was to become as it were as Sinn fein wishes a nation once again
then we have to learn to accept what is an aspect of the cultural identity of people who live on the Island of Ireland.
That is how they identify themselves and lobby and how they rally thier communities and to have them down here lobbying may well the way of the future. It is a brave bold step towards a better future I hope (but doubt it), towards ridding ourselves of the idea of white, neo celtic catholics only being irish.

whiskeyman

Maskhadov wrote:

I dont know if the parade is meant to be to have a go at people in Dublin (ROI).

I'm surprised no-one has pointed out that the reason they are marching in Dublin is because they know it's the future capital of a United Ireland, and one that they see is almost unstoppable now (hence the march).

That has to be a huge victory for any nationalist and to retalitate would be playing into their hands.
If they step out of line, the Gardaí will be there to try their new batons moves...

Zebra3

If these people want to march or demonstrate, well, let them.

It is (in theory) a democracy that we live in.

IF there is any trouble, then they should be arrested and face the consequences in the courts, and not used as an excuse for the Gardai to randomly assault people as happened at the Ireland-England match 10 years ago.

Genghis

If we are an independent republic, then we should be mature enough to let these guys march and have there say. We have nothing to fear from them. I personally have no issue.

If we are ever to have a United Ireland, then we need to recognise their different tradition and accomodate this. If there is ever to be a United Ireland, then this sort of thing needs to be accepted as a normal expression of diversity - in just the same way that Hare Krishnas, Trade Unionists, right-wing anti-abortionists and others can march in freedom despite the fact that a lot of people may well object to their particular message.

The interests of republicans would be best served by allowing this march go ahead with gusto and no objection. Show them tolerance, maturity and acceptance. What they are likely to hope for is a display of aggression, sectarianism and vitriol that proves their point that there is no place for Unionists in a wider Ireland. I hope they don't get what they want.

Lemming

As much as I might find the Orange Order to be utterly abhorrant, I find the vitrol comign from the chuckies here to be somewhat .... amusingly hypocritical. For all yoru claims of "inclusion" and "moving forward", you seem remarkably unable to afford the same "inclusion" to your direct counterparts, and they are your _direct_ counterparts. They are identical to you in every way shape and form of mentality and attitude. You are the exact same coin, just the flip side.

Meh

This shows that people in the south are more tolerant and mature in their attitudes than northern nationalists.

Nice to see that this parade is clearly intended as a sincere cross-community attempt at reconciliation, rather than just an excuse for childish name-calling at the "other side". <end sarcasm>

That said, if I can put up with the Provos parading down O'Connell Street with republican regalia, I can put up with these clowns and their Union Jacks too.

Diorraing

I don't care about it really as long as they don't start singing "Croppies Lie Down" and other sectarian songs. It would be a chance to show that they are welcome in the Republic.

county

Diorraing wrote:

I don't care about it really as long as they don't start singing "Croppies Lie Down" and other sectarian songs. It would be a chance to show that they are welcome in the Republic.

that would totally confuse them:D

murphaph

They have every right to come to Dublin and march on Dail Eireann so long as OUR government is involved in the INTERNAL affairs of a part of the United Kingdom. If OUR government had no input into their affairs then they'd have no right to march, but that's not the case.

I hope any march just passes off peacefully and they head home without incident. The worst thing for our city is for them to be abused by knuckle dragging SF placard waving twats. This will surely test the SF mantra of "inclusion" in a hypothetical united Ireland.

I would of course not want any march to cause undue disruption to the economic life of the city and so on.

Benedict XVI

Meh wrote:

That said, if I can put up with the Provos parading down O'Connell Street with republican regalia, I can put up with these clowns and their Union Jacks too.

Totally agree, if SF can have a march for Irish Unity, FAIR can have a march airing their grevences, I hope it passes off pecafully and those involved enjoy their day.
The Orange Order have a march in Rosnaulagh(sp) Co. Donegal that by all accounts passes of peacfully each year.

AngelofFire

FAIR have every right to come down here and March, i fundamentally believe in freedom of speech in assembly. The IRA killed more innocent people during the troubles than the British Army, RUC or the loyalist paramilitaries. If people are Marching in comemoration of their lost loved ones than i have no problem with it. It would be a good gesture to the our brothers and sisters in the unionist community up north if the people of the republic were to welcome this march.

growler

Do they have the right to march in a foreign country of which they are not citizens ?

I can't recall an instance where a legal protest , by ( a mojority of) non-nationals, was allowed to take place in a country.

Surely they should be striving to influence the policies of the government that they elect rather than one with which their votes count for nought.

Seems like an attempt to provoke the nationalists into some reaction which they can then trot out as proof of the savagery of the papist masses. If it does go ahead they will get a reaction, short of a dublin curfew in their honour.


and county, Croppies Lie Down is a unionist song, why would that confuse them ?

Would they not have to renounce their citizenship to be foreigners?
I thought that right was still afforded constitutionally to anyone born on the island of Ireland?

Genghis

AFAIK anyone born in Northern Ireland is guaranteed under our constitution citizenship of this country. Also, Article 2 states that anyone born on the island of Ireland has a right to part of the Irish Nation - in other words the Unionists are expressly not "non-nationals" as you term it.

growler wrote:

Do they have the right to march in a foreign country of which they are not citizens ?

I can't recall an instance where a legal protest , by ( a mojority of) non-nationals, was allowed to take place in a country.

Surely they should be striving to influence the policies of the government that they elect rather than one with which their votes count for nought.

Seems like an attempt to provoke the nationalists into some reaction which they can then trot out as proof of the savagery of the papist masses. If it does go ahead they will get a reaction, short of a dublin curfew in their honour.


and county, Croppies Lie Down is a unionist song, why would that confuse them ?

dermo88

dermo88 wrote:

There are two groups in Ireland that make me turn and have neo nazi desires of removal, deportation, or better for the world and all, concerned, preferably final solution style removal from the face of the earth.

The first one are the Ulster Unionists. The second ones, well......I'll keep my mouth shut, and avoid being censored by the moderators. First letter T in official circles, but they are really K. Sometimes I walk past the places where they live whistling the Horst Wessel song. So they get the hint. So they know that their burnt tires, and **** strewn on streets is not welcome. Its hardly brave, but hopefully maybe there is one or two educated enough to know what that means.......it means get out of the country. Get out full stop. Because if I get a sniff of power, I will have the revenue inspectors, the dole inspectors, and every organ of the state persecuting you, until you know the best place is to live like normal people.

Ireland can welcome anybody, but if you are a Unionist, T/K, there is a place for you. Its called Innisvickalaun, Skellig Michael, Tuskar Rock, or the Saltee Islands. Stay there and die.

Otherwise, I don't care whether you are black, white, straight, gay, chinese, lesbian, disabled, or perfect. As long as you behave, welcome to Ireland.

This post reminds me of that scene from the first twilight zone movie.
Speaking of which - thats where I'm sending you for peddling genocidal views on here.

Maskhadov

They have a right to march down here...

i heard them on the radio last night and it was more of a " we want to let everyone down south know that this is important for our culture" as opposed to previous stances like "this is our right, no surrender".

Since they have adopted a more conciliatory manner im all for it.

gurramok

AngelofFire wrote:

FAIR have every right to come down here and March, i fundamentally believe in freedom of speech in assembly. The IRA killed more innocent people during the troubles than the British Army, RUC or the loyalist paramilitaries. If people are Marching in comemoration of their lost loved ones than i have no problem with it. It would be a good gesture to the our brothers and sisters in the unionist community up north if the people of the republic were to welcome this march.

This is not just a one-sided 'victims' march, it includes the sectarian Orange Order who ban non-protestant membership, and loyalist paramilitaries. Just have a look at the pictures of them on tv in the last march in Belfast, it was disgusting.

Benedict XVI

gurramok wrote:

This is not just a one-sided 'victims' march, it includes the sectarian Orange Order who ban non-protestant membership.

As I stated above there is an peacefull Orange Parade in Donegal every July, so what's the difference if they have one in Dublin

gurramok wrote:

and loyalist paramilitaries. Just have a look at the pictures of them on tv in the last march in Belfast, it was disgusting.

Where ?, I had a look at the pictures on their website www.loveulster.com, lots of flute bands and orange paraphanelia, but no trappings of loyalist paramilitaries.
Any links ?

Any march by this group could be no worse that the spectical we were presented with on the day befor the All Ireland Football final by republicans

murphaph

growler wrote:

Do they have the right to march in a foreign country of which they are not citizens ?

Notwithstanding the fact that constitutionally speaking these folks are not "non-nationals", from their perspective a foreign government in Dail Eireann is interfering in their country and there is no getting away from the fact that this is true, so they have a right to petition the Government of Ireland if they want. Ideally our government would not be involved in the internal affairs of NI and would spend all their time governing our part ofthis island while fully cooperating with our neighbours in matters of common concern, like transport and security etc.

A Dub in Glasgo

Of course they can march in Dublin if the government agrees to it. I wonder will they wait till people are leaving Mass to harass them. Will they stop outside a Catholic church and sing 'Up to our knees in Fenian blood, surrender or you will die' in unison.

Ironic that the very people who claim NI nationalists are not Irish now claim that NI unionists have a right to march in Dublin.

Sand

Ironic that the very people who claim NI nationalists are not Irish now claim that NI unionists have a right to march in Dublin.

If SFIRA are allowed to parade down here in fascist style complete with pseudo military uniforms and posing with fake weaponry, then why cant other people march here? I wouldnt recognise them as citizens of the Republic (they are fellow EU citizens so Id imagine they have certain rights to protest under EU agreements either way?), I just couldnt give a toss if they want to march. Let them. They dont think my government has any right to intefere in the affairs of their country, Provos dont think they have any right to march here. Most people just dont care.

you seem remarkably unable to afford the same "inclusion" to your direct counterparts, and they are your _direct_ counterparts. They are identical to you in every way shape and form of mentality and attitude. You are the exact same coin, just the flip side.

Spot on. SFIRA will probably do everything in its power to prevent any appearance of organised trouble, but only because it doesnt want the political strife it would cause - not because it seriously believes in the sort of inclusion it spouts.

If its tough for Provos to imagine an Orange march (and this isnt actually an Orange march per se, but it rapidly becomes so in the public imagination) in Dublin they must dread an actual United Ireland which would be far, far less green than they seem to imagine. Scots-Ulster as the 3rd national language? A United Ireland in the British Commonwealth? Irelands Call as the new national anthem? Revision of republican orientated history books in schools to a more "balanced" perspective? The list of possible compromises to appease the new Ulster Unionist minority in a United Ireland could have Provos running for their sick buckets.

mike65

Can I just add that this thread is far too resonable, the rabble on After Hours feels more 'real'

Mike.

gurramok

Benedict XVI wrote:

As I stated above there is an peacefull Orange Parade in Donegal every July, so what's the difference if they have one in Dublin

Difference, they are welcome there in a non-residential area (ie beach) with no trouble

Benedict XVI wrote:

Where ?, I had a look at the pictures on their website www.loveulster.com, lots of flute bands and orange paraphanelia, but no trappings of loyalist paramilitaries.
Any links ?

UTV Live, BBC Newsline if you watch the tv news, it gives you insight on what really goes on in this movement and its real objectives
Anyway from sdlp themselves on love ulster links to paramilitaries http://www.sdlp.ie/prmaginnesshystericalrallies.shtm
Another http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2005/09/04/story7642.asp
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22385

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

If SFIRA are allowed to parade down here in fascist style complete with pseudo military uniforms and posing with fake weaponry, then why cant other people march here?

Please point out where I said they could not or have you just gone off on another rant?

I thought Berlin has copyrighted on that Love Parade thing...:eek:

AngelofFire

This is not just a one-sided 'victims' march, it includes the sectarian Orange Order who ban non-protestant membership, and loyalist paramilitaries

I was refering purely to FAIR not the the orange order or loyalist paramilitaries.

FreaK_BrutheR

Why do people on these boards seem so afraid to say they are proud to be Irish? I am not from Dublin so I don't really understand just how distant you all feel you are from the North or how ashamed you are of people "up there" (in your country) being proud Irish people who want to stand up for their nation.

Nationalism is not a dirty word. Many an injustice has been put right because the pole had pride in their country and would not lie down to bullying, no matter how long it went on.

I stress that I do not believe in violence ( I can imagine how many people read the first paragraph and assumed I was talking about popel taking up arms) but that does not make me me ashamed to say that we (We are Irish)have been been overrun for centuries by an invading force and I personally would like it put right. I have no shame in this whatsoever.

The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2. It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man. It is a sectarian movement and obviously attracts an element of Unionist hard liners because of the taunting effect it has. The KKK would not be allowed to march through Harlem, The Neo Nazis through Jerusalem and similarly should the Orange order should not be allowed march through Catholic areas of the North. Its antagonistic at best. Traditional routes were traditional routes when we were in penal times in this country and subservient. We are not any more and shouldn't feel for an instant afarid to say we will not be again!

As for marching in Dublin... well I don't know. In the statement in the Times the organisations have said they will carry the union jack and the ulster flag but will not carry the tricolour. I think its interesting they felt the need to state that anyway. I mean there was aquote of 2 lines and they decided the most important thing they could say was that?

Anyway Im Irish and Im very god damn proud of it! Im equally as proud of my general pacifist stance.

Jaden

FreaK_BrutheR wrote:

The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2. It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man.

There were a number of Protestants fighting on the side of James, and a number of Catholics fighting on the side of William of Orange.

As I recall, William had the Popes blessing and consent, as he would put a stop to the scourge of French imperialism, as the Vatican viewed it.

The religious lines were drawn much later.

Linky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne

Sponge Bob

If some bollox with a Lambeg interrupts the deserved slumbers of this Sponge I may feel the irrational urge to lob a missile in his direction with the intention of hitting him or his drum.

FreaK_BrutheR

Lets not be pedantic Jaden. The majority under James II were catholic and the majority under William were Protestant.

The sectarianism that grew from the battle is very obvious despite as you said the Pope's support for William of Orange. The Catholic church and the pope have had their hand in nearly every attorcity in history by my reckoning. I actually didn't know the pope had supported William of Orange I'm sure Paisley would love his support now!!!

The religious lines I feel were drawn earlier when Irish people were not allowed to practice their religion, hold office in their country and lost their land... anyway is till stand beside the staement

"The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2." this is true...

"It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man." This is also true

whether catholic fought under william or not or whether the pope condoned it at the time does not change what the orange order stands for. The orange order exists to commemorat that battle... they did not fight in it. The order was set up about 100 years later when the lines were well and truely dran.

Jaden

I dispute nothing you've said (except the bit about me being pedantic!).

My point about the Pope's support for William of Orange merely demonstrates that if Orangemen want to celebrate the outcome of a 300+ year old battle that resulted in a victory for the Papacy, then fire away. I consider it a little silly, but generally harmless. Why should that bother me? Is it in manner in which it is celebrated the bit that should bother me? Should it bother me any more or less than a St Patricks day parade should bother Protestants?

murphaph

FreaK_BrutheR wrote:

Why do people on these boards seem so afraid to say they are proud to be Irish?

Well I can only speak for myself, but I refuse to be 'proud' of an accident of birth. I could have been born in Swaziland or Fiji, so why should I be 'proud' of the country I was born in just by chance??? It's this type of blind pride (nationalism) that causes half the bloody problems in the first place. We're all human beings not clones unveiled from under our national flags. I can understand one's pride if one's child excels at school or whatever because it's something you had an input into, but you had no input into what nationality you would be. I'm rambling now.....anyway, that's my $0.02.

Jaden

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it."

Flex

murphaph wrote:

Well I can only speak for myself, but I refuse to be 'proud' of an accident of birth. I could have been born in Swaziland or Fiji, so why should I be 'proud' of the country I was born in just by chance??? It's this type of blind pride (nationalism) that causes half the bloody problems in the first place. We're all human beings not clones unveiled from under our national flags. I can understand one's pride if one's child excels at school or whatever because it's something you had an input into, but you had no input into what nationality you would be. I'm rambling now.....anyway, that's my $0.02.

Do you support the Ireland team in sporting events, etc.?

Anyway, im very proud of the fact im Irish, im proud of my country and im proud of its history.

murphaph

Flex wrote:

Do you support the Ireland team in sporting events, etc.?

Yeah I go to all of our home internationals and quite a few away games, but if we do well at soccer I'm able to be proud of the lads, not proud of 'Ireland' or of just 'being irish'. I'm happy to differentiate a sporting event to nationalism because a healthy competition with my fellow man is no harm, it helps us all as a species to progress and so on. It so happens that national boundaries are useful ways of grouping people together for team events, just like local club football-should people who support the Dubs be proud of being a Dub too? If so, why?

Flex wrote:

Anyway, im very proud of the fact im Irish, im proud of my country and im proud of its history.

You're proud of your country and it's history? That's a very fluffy statement I have to say. It's almost meaningless in fact. Are you proud of the gangland killings and the chronic litter problem, one of the worst heroin addiction rates per capita in Europe, the crappy public transport, the crappy roads? I mean, you may be proud of individuals and of indivudual incidents in our history, but your blanket pride seems misplaced.

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

You're proud of your country and it's history? That's a very fluffy statement I have to say. It's almost meaningless in fact. Are you proud of the gangland killings and the chronic litter problem, one of the worst heroin addiction rates per capita in Europe, the crappy public transport, the crappy roads? I mean, you may be proud of individuals and of indivudual incidents in our history, but your blanket pride seems misplaced.

He is proud of his ethinicity and culture of his country, not the govt policies of the day nor individual groups who stain the image of the country(heroin abusers)
That is the distinction.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

He is proud of his ethinicity and culture of his country, not the govt policies of the day nor individual groups who stain the image of the country(heroin abusers)
That is the distinction.

Again, I find that quite fluffy. What is the 'culture' of Ireland?

And what is his 'ethnicity' - how do you kow he's not as black as the ace of spades? and if he is, is that something that should make him proud of being irish??

(Personally when I hear of people being proud of their ethnicity I get to thinking of
http://img187.exs.cx/img187/815/belsencamp5ue.jpg

and

these people