Is it sexist that there is no official Paternity Leave in Ireland?

Daavid

I am a two time father and am soon to have another child with my wife.
It has bothered me since my wife became pregnant on our first how
dis-respectful of fathers this country is.
I am taking 3 weeks holidays from work to be with my wife and new child (and other children) when our baby is born, but I don't thnik its fair that I should have to. My wife doesn't work so she won't get any maternity benefit, I pay my taxes but what do I get? Nothing.

Am I the only one who feels like this or I am part of a generally queit group?

There is one very obvious distinction that can be made between mothers and fathers when it comes to the whole birth process thing. While I can imagine that fathers would like such leave and in an ideal world it would be desirable, I can't see any employer happy at any such prospect.

Nevyn

Yes it is wrong that there is legally mandated paid paterinty leave.
Really the 3 days off most companys give ( they are not legally obliged to ) is
not enough.

Having a child is a big event and a life changing one and is even more hard work
if there are older siblings to the new arrival and parents should be better supported.

Daavid

Well, obviously there's a distinction and I wouldn't expect anythnig like what mothers get, but a little understanding that while the mother physically has the baby, she is not the only one "having" a baby. I've taken holidays off from work for both of my other children and have found those first few weeks to be some of the most important for bonding with them. We, as fathers, should be given some consideration instead of none. Most other civilised countries see this, why doesn't Ireland.
And so what if employers wouldn't be happy with it. If it were to come into action they'd just have to deal with it, like they do in other countries.

Edit: Thank you Thaedydal

How about unpaid leave that doesn't eat into holidays?

MrPudding

Deleted User wrote:

How about unpaid leave that doesn't eat into holidays?

As fathers we already have an entitlement to unpaid leave that does not eat into holidays. The point the OP was trying to make was men to not have an option for paid leave.

Family life has changed over the years. Men are, or are trying, to become more involved in the upbringing of their children. We are also more aware of just how difficult the initial couple of weeks are. If it is a first child then it is all new and can overcome a new mum. If it isn;t the first child then the other kids need looking after as well.

I know that in my case we simply cannot afford for me to take unpaid leave. I would imagine there are a lot of families in the same boat. Whilst unpaid leave is great if you can afford it it is pretty useless if you can't. It is very easy for a government to offer something knowing that most people will not be able to avail of it.

Employers are never happy about anything that costs them money or hassle. I would not expect anything less. I do not consider making them unhappy to be a valid reason for not doing something which just seems right.

MrP

kc66

The company I work for made me take holidays if I wanted time off when my daughter was born. Its disgraceful that there is no official paternity leave.

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote:

Employers are never happy about anything that costs them money or hassle. I would not expect anything less. I do not consider making them unhappy to be a valid reason for not doing something which just seems right.

There are sound medical reasons for having maternity leave. Frankly, they don't apply in the case of the father. I appreciate that it would be nice for a father to have a lot more time off for such an event, but frankly I'd like time off to bring my nieces and nephews to the cinema and football matches more often but I don't expect it...

Capt'n Midnight

Didn't someone take the EU to court over this. And the ruling was that yes indeed maternity leave was indeed sexual discrimination. AFAIK it's now change so that either sex can have time off if they are pregnant.

DDavid - best thing to do is to find out the cover offered in most other other EU countries and then contact your local TD. Though I doubt things could be changed before the next budget even if there was a will to do it.

seamus

Deleted User wrote:

I appreciate that it would be nice for a father to have a lot more time off for such an event, but frankly I'd like time off to bring my nieces and nephews to the cinema and football matches more often but I don't expect it...

So you deem taking nephews/nieces to football and looking after a newborn child and its mother to be equivalent in necessity/importance?

kc66

So any man whos wife is giving birth to their baby should be penalised wages from work to attend the birth or be there to support his wife in the following few days, and to bond with the child? These days are tough for a woman and also can be for the father.
It is an expensive enough time holidays will be badly needed down the line.

seamus

seamus wrote:

So you deem taking nephews/nieces to football and looking after a newborn child and its mother to be equivalent in necessity/importance?

No. I was being facetious. I also believe any comparison between the act of giving birth and 'looking after a newborn child and its mother' to be strained - there are plenty of single mothers who get by fine and there is no absolute medical need for a father to be around.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote:

There are sound medical reasons for having maternity leave. Frankly, they don't apply in the case of the father.

The mothers "sound medical reasons" are the justification for paternity leave, so the poor exhausted mother doesn't have to mange a new born on her own for 8 hours a day. If the father has to go to work in the morning as well it means the mother is probably going to have to do most of the work at night so the father can actually go to work the next day. So really the mother has to do the vast majority of the work.

I am quite amazed that this issue is seen by some as an unfairly balance in favour of of the mother, in a "isn't she lucky she gets time off work" kinda way.

Conor74 seem to be slightly underestimating what having a new baby is like if you think it is on par to bringing your nephew to the cinema (ie a relaxing day off work). I think no paternity leave is a disgrace for a number of reasons, the main one being it gives the entire burden of raising a new born to the mother, along with the OPs original point that it means he has to go out and work he cannot help his wife or get to know his new child.

seamus

Deleted User wrote:

there are plenty of single mothers who get by fine and there is no absolute medical need for a father to be around.

Of course there isn't. That doesn't mean that the government should completely distance itself from compassion. In theory, there are many, many things you could strike off as having "no absolute medical need" for missing work - how does a broken leg prevent you from working, if you sit at a keyboard - yet the government will pay sick benefit for it. Aside from your point, Maternity leave isn't medical leave. There is no medical need for a woman to have 4.5 months of maternity leave, yet that's the minimum. So your point is moot.

You'll find that most, if not all single mothers had help from someone, somewhere. Even those who don't - does that mean that all women should have to go it alone, because "Well, this lady did, why can't you"? Times have changed. Man is no longer the sole provider, vaguely aware of some short people who live in his house. Men are more interested in the children, more interested in family life. Why shouldn't the woman get a few weeks of a putting her feet up, letting her stitches (and any other injuries she's sustained) heal more quickly, and taking a much needed break while the man takes care of her? The first few weeks, post-natal, for the mother are convalescence. The first few weeks with a baby are tough work. Clearly the two aren't all that compatible.

Why shouldn't the Government pay men for three or four weeks to look after their family?

seamus

seamus wrote:

Why shouldn't the Government pay men for three or four weeks to look after their family?

Or, put another way, why not another handout?

MrPudding

Deleted User wrote:

There are sound medical reasons for having maternity leave. Frankly, they don't apply in the case of the father.

In you opinion that is. Whilst there is no direct medical reason for the man to have leave there are medical issues that effect the mother but can be alleviated or eliminated with help and support from the father. Help and support which would be much easier to provide if there was an option for the father to be there without worrying how the bills would be paid.

As I said in my previous post, parenthood has changed. I would agree that previously it would have been agreed that there was no reason for fathers to be involved. But then in the “old days” fathers would often have little or nothing to do with the upbringing of the children. All that work was left to the mother. Times have changed but the governments policy has not.

Deleted User wrote:

I appreciate that it would be nice for a father to have a lot more time off for such an event, but frankly I'd like time off to bring my nieces and nephews to the cinema and football matches more often but I don't expect it...

Having a child is slightly different to taking your nephews and nieces to the cinema or to a football game. You want time off to go to a match with you nephew. A father wants time off after my baby is born because his wife or girlfriend has not had a nights sleep for a week and is about to pass out from exhaustion. Or maybe be wants time off because she is starting to suffer from post natal depression and he needs to look after his other children to give break a break and a chance to get herself together.

Comparing you wanting to take you nephews and nieces to football or the cinema to a father wanting time off after a child is born is a little bit silly and not really comparing like with like.

MrP

[EDIT: Sorry for repeating a few point other have made. I did this up offline and did not see the other responses.

seamus

Deleted User wrote:

Or, put another way, why not another handout?

What are you talking about? You think having a child is piss-easy stuff, and that paying someone for paternity leave is "another handout"?

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote:

Comparing you wanting to take you nephews and nieces to football or the cinema to a father wanting time off after a child is born is a little bit silly and not really comparing like with like.
[/COLOR]

Hence I said it was facetious.

I also believe the comparison between the mother carrying a child for 9 months and the act of giving birth, with the father's desire to be around to hold her hand and give night feeds is a little silly. Either way, I object to my funding the latter.

Hobbes

They could make it fair by just allowing parental leave instead of maternal leave when it comes to paying

with the father's desire to be around to hold her hand and give night feeds is a little silly. Either way, I object to my funding the latter.

Says someone who has never had to do it I guess.

MrPudding

seamus wrote:

You'll find that most, if not all single mothers had help from someone, somewhere. Even those who don't - does that mean that all women should have to go it alone, because "Well, this lady did, why can't you"?

The other issue is whilst some may do it on there own that does not mean it is the best way to raise a child. Some do it becuase they have no choice. If they had a choice you would probably find they would do it another way.

I am sure there are very few woman that would choose to raise a child completely by themselves.

MrP

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote:

I also believe the comparison between the mother carrying a child for 9 months and the act of giving birth, with the father's desire to be around to hold her hand and give night feeds is a little silly.

You know nothing about babies ... i don't even have any and I know it is a lot more than holding hands and the odd night feed, simply from being around when my sister was born. I mean I was exhausted when my sister was born and I was hardly doing anything

Also materity leave is not designed simply so the woman can pop out the child and run back to work. The following few weeks can be very hard. It is ridiculous to say that the woman should care for the child but we should stop the father from helping out

And where the hell did you get the idea that materinity leave was a hand out? As if looking after a new born is less work than going into the office.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Says someone who has never had to do it I guess.

True. But I pay taxes and am entitled to an opinion on how they are spent...

Daavid

Hobbes wrote:

They could make it fair by just allowing parental leave instead of maternal leave when it comes to paying.

Exactly, the extra few weeks mothers recently got in the budget could've been given towards fathers, or even some of the days.

Conor, do you have children?

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote:

You know nothing about babies ...

That's your opinion.

What is most certainly fact is that you don't know me...hence perhaps you could ease up with the assumptions...

Wicknight wrote:

It is ridiculous to say that the woman should care for the child but we should stop the father from helping out

Where did I say that? Please let's not try and make up stuff...

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote:

What is most certainly fact is that you don't know me

true, i don't know you, all I know is that you have compared materinity leave to going to the cinema and have said that how a father helps out with a new born is by holding the womans hand and the odd night feeding ... you ain't giving a lot to work on here to the idea you know a lot (or anything) about raising a new born.

Deleted User wrote:

Where did I say that? Please let's not try and make up stuff...

You stop the father by not providing paid materinity leave. Most people need money you know.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

True. But I pay taxes and am entitled to an opinion on how they are spent...

As a ukrainian chap I work with very wisely once pointed out;

"There are opinions. And then there are professional opinions. Everybody has an opinion. Not everybody has a professional opinion. You can say what you like, but it's just your opinion, not a professional opinion".

simu

Yes, it is sexist. Women, on average, already do more than their fair share of household chores and child-minding and the absence of proper paternity leave does nothing to reduce this problem.

The fallacies are strong in this one

simu

Deleted User wrote:

The fallacies are strong in this one

In which one? How so? What are you saying?

Nevyn

Deleted User wrote:

True. But I pay taxes and am entitled to an opinion on how they are spent...

yes and so did I and so will I again and so do ALL my family and so will my children when they go to work and so will my grandchildren.

And it will be my childrens and my grandchildren's taxes that pay for you pension and health care the the running of the country when you are in your addage.

I'd sooner see proper paid paternity leave for parents funded then some of the
other wastes of tax payers moneys on horses breeding and electronic voting.

With more women in the work place the support network that used to be there
when a mother gave birth, the grand mothers calling in or moving in to help out, sisters who had kids and neighbours who were at home minding thier
children would all rally arround to aid the mother after the birth are no longer able too.
They are woking outside the home and the community that was once there
to support stay at home parents is in many places non exisitant.
Esp when young couples who buy a house a forced out into the commuter
belt where even if they know the neighbours no one is at home during the
day if a mother after giving birth need assistance.

In Denmark, sweden and Belgium a local health nurse calls in every day during
the first 2/3 weeks after the birth of a child to make sure the family (not just the mother) is coping.

The building begrudery against children and having children in this country is frankly appaling.

Daavid

Well said. I'm very impressed by the response to this thread, thanks all.

Zombrex

Thaedydal wrote:

The building begrudery against children and having children in this country is frankly appaling.

Good point ... I would love to know where this modern idea that children get in the way of a successful economy, which seems to be doing the rounds lately, came from.

The point of both parental leave is that society helps parents during the curical first few weeks to get back on their feet without punishing them or discouraging them for having children by forcing them to take holidays or save large amounts to support unpaid leave.

I see no problem with this and would gladly pay for it with my taxes instead of horse racing substandies or billions to over priced consultency firms who don't deliever anything.

Seeing as I seem to be in a minority of one here, can I ask if everyone is agreed on what the length of that leave should be? I presume it will remain sexist until it is the same length as maternity leave...

Daavid

Hobbes made a suggestion earlier about making it Parental leave instead of Maternal leave and I suppose then it would be up to the parents in each situation to decide what is best for them.

FatherTed

What's the problem with using a few week's of your holidays? It's not like you're going to be jetting off to Thailand or Fiji with your new born baby anyway. Jeez, talk about some Nanny-State. Suck it up.

Seth Brundle

Thaedydal wrote:

Yes it is wrong that there is legally mandated paid paterinty leave.
Really the 3 days off most companys give ( they are not legally obliged to ) is
not enough.

Having a child is a big event and a life changing one and is even more hard work
if there are older siblings to the new arrival and parents should be better supported.

The week following my sons birth, my employer decided to give me work starting from 8:30am until 9:30pm for two weeks. Being on contract [rather loosely!] I didn't have the opportunity to say no! I was unable to give my wife or son the support they needed during this period.

Paternity leave is not supported properly here as the business lobby would be against the idea of having to pay for time off! Its as simple as that IMO.
However, as for it being sexist, whats new? Look at the governments handling on other equality issues - gay marriage, female salaries Vs male salaries, etc.

Daavid

FatherTed wrote:

What's the problem with using a few week's of your holidays? It's not like you're going to be jetting off to Thailand or Fiji with your new born baby anyway. Jeez, talk about some Nanny-State. Suck it up.

Yeah, you're probably right, and while we're at it, once the mother has healed sufficiently to re-start work we should cut their leave and send them back out too. Don't wanna live in a nanny state now do we. (Spot the sarcasm)

Hobbes

Really the 3 days off most companys give ( they are not legally obliged to ) is not enough.

Sounds like Force Majeure leave which you can claim for 3 days paid leave in 12 months or 5 days in 36 months.

FatherTed

Daavid wrote:

Yeah, you're probably right, and while we're at it, once the mother has healed sufficiently to re-start work we should cut their leave and send them back out too. Don't wanna live in a nanny state now do we. (Spot the sarcasm)

There ya go, not problemo with that one

Seriously though, I've got 3 kids and took two weeks vacation for each. Next thing we'll be having non-parents complaining that fathers get extra paid leave for doing Sweet fa.

Daavid

But the point is that its not sweet fa. Much of what a mother does during Maternal Leave is what fathers want to do these days, as has been said before times are a changin'. Men do want to be involved in their families lives more and more. Fair play, you took holidays off for your kids, as have I and will I. We just shouldn't have to is all.

Edit : Gotta go, I'll finish this in the morning.

lazydaisy

Daavid wrote:

But the point is that its not sweet fa. Much of what a mother does during Maternal Leave is what fathers want to do these days, as has been said before times are a changin'. Men do want to be involved in their families lives more and more. Fair play, you took holidays off for your kids, as have I and will I. We just shouldn't have to is all.

Edit : Gotta go, I'll finish this in the morning.

You mean like breastfeeding? I cant wait to see the bras that will come out for men once they get paternity leave. Or the stretch marks. Or the mood fluctuations. How about post-natal depression? Extra weight you have to lose? How about a sore vagina? Would you like that too? Then we can talk about equality.

MrPudding

lazydaisy wrote:

You mean like breastfeeding? I cant wait to see the bras that will come out for men once they get paternity leave. Or the stretch marks. Or the mood fluctuations. How about post-natal depression? Extra weight you have to lose? How about a sore vagina? Would you like that too? Then we can talk about equality.

I am sure he is actually talking about things he can actually do. You know like bathing the child, allowing his wife / GF to go have a shower or a bath, feed the child with a bottle, clean the house, look after the other kids, keep his wife / gf company and give her an adult to talk to, go to the shops.

Enough of the suffering woman thing already. We know what women go through. But do you know what? It isn't our fault. We didn't make it that way.

He obviously wants to help his partner in any way he can which nature will allow him to. He should be commended for that not targetted for sarcastic posts from someone that seems to have a monstrous chip on their shoulder.

MrP

seamus

lazydaisy wrote:

You mean like breastfeeding? I cant wait to see the bras that will come out for men once they get paternity leave. Or the stretch marks. Or the mood fluctuations. How about post-natal depression? Extra weight you have to lose? How about a sore vagina? Would you like that too? Then we can talk about equality.

All of these things are the reason *why* he's looking for paternity leave. Perhaps so his wife doesn't have to suffer these things alone. Perhaps so that instead of standing in her dressing gown, rocking a baby to sleep, all the while with a "sore vagina", she can stay in bed, try to get some rest, while he cares for the child.

Seriously, why begrudge the man because he wants to help in the only ways he can?

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote:

He obviously wants to help his partner in any way he can which nature will allow him to.

Dunno about that. Not in the sense that he doesn't want to help, but dunno if your summary is accurate. I would phrase it more like this...

'He obviously wants to help his partner in any way he can which nature will allow him to and wants to get paid leave to do so'

I don't think anyone has or should have any issue with the former, it's the bit I tacked on that causes me a slight difficulty. However, in fairness to the OP he has made a suggestion which has merit - redesignate maternity leave as parental leave and allow the parents to carve it up or use it as they see fit.

Johnee

lazydaisy wrote:

You mean like breastfeeding? I cant wait to see the bras that will come out for men once they get paternity leave. Or the stretch marks. Or the mood fluctuations. How about post-natal depression? Extra weight you have to lose? How about a sore vagina? Would you like that too? Then we can talk about equality.

I have to say, the thing I never understand about this debate is when women oppose the idea of paternity leave. Having only maternity leave is arguably the single biggest legal impediment to women being treated as a fully equal member of the workforce because it confirms them as the one in a family situation who is going to have to give up work and look after a newborn. And a firm is always going to regard them as such when giving out promotions etc.

Parental leave is what is required if women want full equality - so that it is for each couple (or individual as the case may be) to decide who looks after the child for the first few months of its development, depending on personal preferences, finances, etc.

If anyone has been to Scandanavia, you'll notice an abundance of young couples looking after their newborns together, in the morning, around town, and so on. And I personally think that's great - it's monumentally short-sighted to bleat on about it being a waste of taxes, and then face the consequences of a society where parents are given no time to bring up their children in a stable family unit where both parents are around.

And, yes, I know many parents bring up their children perfectly well in other situations. But we should be doing all we can to make that ideal easier to achieve for couples, not some Utopian fantasy.

annR

LazyDaisy I think you misinterpreted Daavid's post. Of course men shouldn't be begrudged because they want to help their wives after childbirth. And it's not always a case of him getting a chance to change a few nappies so she can rest. What about the poor couples where the woman develops health complications, or when the baby isn't well? My poor brother got 1 day's leave and then spent his 2 weeks holidays rushing them in and out of hospital and then had to go back to work and leave her there. I think that's shocking.

The fact is that community support and sisters and mothers etc just aren't around to help new mothers the way they used to be. They're either working or live in a different part of the country or something. Paternal leave has to make up for that.

>>As fathers we already have an entitlement to unpaid leave that does not eat into holidays. The point the OP was trying to make was men to not have an option for paid leave.<<

Is there that entitlement for unpaid leave or is it down to the employer? What exactly is the current entitlement?

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

I would phrase it more like this...

'He obviously wants to help his partner in any way he can which nature will allow him to and wants to get paid leave to do so'

In short what you are saying is:

"If you are rich, society will let you take a couple of weeks off to look after your newborn/help the mother of/ etc"

Since you wanted to be so blunt about it, I'll be equally blunt Conor and call a spade a spade.

Why aren't you suggesting that we take away paid maternity leave? Why not? Because there'd be f*cking murder over it? Because it's grossly unfair not to mention damaging to society? Geeh, whizz, what'dye know?!! ...

seamus

annR wrote:

Is there that entitlement for unpaid leave or is it down to the employer? What exactly is the current entitlement?

Any parent may take up to 14 weeks unpaid leave in any 12 months for each child they have under five years of age.

The only requirement is that you've been working with the company for a year. A big problem is that this cannot be used for days when the mother might suddenly turn ill, or those unplanned events where the father must stay home to look after the child - you must give 6 weeks notice in writing. If the above occur, then it is as others have said - the father must take a day's leave.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

"If you are rich, society will let you take a couple of weeks off to look after your newborn/help the mother of/ etc"

Not necessarily rich, but of course would assume that most people should take their financial situation into account to some extent when planning a family. I mean, if a person can't afford a few weeks off work, maybe it's not an ideal time to have a child...though I appreciate that planning may be a bit of an ideal rather than the norm.

Either way, is there any way that work and new born babies could be combined? Seems to me that they could make ideal paperweights...

http://www.dmai.de/daily_pic/officebaby.jpg

kc66

Do the anti-paternity leave posters think fathers are looking for paid leave because it will be like a holiday? Well its not- it would probably be easier to go into work at 9oclock and do the days work. It is the natural and fair thing to do- to be at home helping out for that first couple of weeks, for both the mother and baby. It is definitely not relaxing time.

kc66

kc66 wrote:

Do the anti-paternity leave posters think fathers are looking for paid leave because it will be like a holiday?

No.