People standing on street corners beware!

John R

http://www.freewebs.com/itv2/vts.htm



Glad I don't have to drive it around Dublin.

Zaph0d

I was hit by one of these in Switzerland earlier this year. I was standing at the bus stop, and of course the bus comes from the opposite direction to Ireland. The driver beeped just as the mirror caught me on the back of the skull.

I must be very thick or the mirror must be spring loaded because it didn't hurt.

shltter

Zaph0d wrote:

I must be very thick or the mirror must be spring loaded because it didn't hurt.

I know which option I am going with.

AndrewMc

Any official numbers on the maneuverability of it around corners? The normal buses always seem to be pretty tight turning from St. Stephen's Green to Leeson Street as it is. This thing looks massive.

Maskhadov

Was that the bus that hit those pedestrians ? It looks like a dublin bus on steroids Twin axels kick ass.

loyatemu

how much bigger than the normal double-deckers is that thing?

MarkoP11

It seats 92 most of the double decker fleet can only manage that with standing

It looks from the side to be stretched AV class (ALX400) which has had an extra window added. It will be interesting to see how this manages to get round Dawson Street to Nassau Street

SeanW

If at all.

Well as for the size of it, if we are going to use buses where we should have Metros and Luases, might as well do it in style.

Zaph0d

no centre door
no rear door
nice one

markpb

Zaph0d wrote:

no centre door
no rear door
nice one

*sigh*

What a load of crap. I wouldn't want to be the person battling to get off one of those before the city centre/terminus. Why are DB so against effecient loading/unloading?

Aidan1

If the second axle steers, it could well turn very tightly. That isn't going to do anything about the length of the thing, but it will help.

D'Peoples Voice

what date is the strike?
I'm assuming that the bus drivers like their cousins in the DART netwrok,
will be going on strike because they are being asked to drive a bus that has an additional axle and can carry more passengers.
Well they are CIE members after all!

What's that the DART drivers were complaining about..... that's it, more responsibility because of additional passsengers, so they need to be paid more.

If only they could have introduced that bus earlier, then the bus drivers could have gone on strike last friday, and killed two birds with one stone/strike!

Berkel

I would say there is steering in the second axle but normally the drive wheel comes before the third and then the last axle countersteers. I cant see how the second axle steering will help. Surely these things have an even longer turning circle than those bendy-buses they are not buying anymore?!

Maskhadov

Bus eireann should follow suit and introduce twin axels on all its inter city fleet

Seth Brundle

Zaph0d wrote:

no centre door
no rear door
nice one

Are there safety [e.g. fire] implications for this?

MarkoP11

Rear emergency exit is on the off side (which makes sense if the bus is on its side as there will always be one exit)

The excuse with the AV class was the wheel chair space took up the space for the middle doors, but if the bus is 1m longer it can fit so why is it missing its going to take ages to empty at terminus

Zaph0d

MarkoP11 wrote:

so why is it missing

because the drivers are more important than the passengers?

markpb

If memory serves there's some union/staffing issue why the middle doors can't be used. Stupid though it seems, I guess from DB's point of view, they're better off buying a bus that can squeeze a few more people in than buying buses with doors that won't be used and which will eventually disable the bus if they are used.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

If memory serves there's some union/staffing issue why the middle doors can't be used. Stupid though it seems, I guess from DB's point of view, they're better off buying a bus that can squeeze a few more people in than buying buses with doors that won't be used and which will eventually disable the bus if they are used.

It's down to mismanagement of the existing bus routes in the city, in my opinion. During the rush hour too many buses have to queue for access to the bus poles in places like Nassau Street and O'Connell Street. There is an unsafe ad-hoc boarding system where three buses can be loading and offloading from the same pole at the same time; one bus might be kerbside and the one behind it in the middle of road. For some reasons Dublin Bus finds is acceptable to disgorge passengers into the middle of dangerous city centre streets, yet is unable to operate the rear doors on existing (older) buses which have them, or design its stops in such a way to make it "safe".

Rather than tackle the real problem - poor bus stop design - Dublin Bus chooses to sweep the issue under the carpet by purchasing for the most bus-dependent capital city in Europe a fleet of buses made inefficient by cumbersome front door bottlenecks. Thereby making it impossible to reduce dwell times at stops even if stop design was improved.

Bad buses and bad bus stops mean long dwell times at stops, chaotic queues and slow journey times. It makes an already-unattractive public transport mode even more unpleasant. It's a catch 22 situation. Journey times cannot be improved, even with QBCs, when you have the absurd scenario of mothers with buggies trying to force their way onto the bus past passengers standing at the front of the bus; while battling against other passengers trying to get off the damn thing! The front doors are for boarding, but why not rear and middle doors for exiting the vehicle? Who is in charge of this bad bus-buying fiasco?

A journey from the city centre to Blanchardstown yesterday (Sunday) should have taken no more than twenty minutes in light traffic. It took forty, plus 15 minutes waiting. There were long dwell times at every stop as passengers battled through standing passengers to get on and off. The light sequences didn't help either. I counted a ninety second delay at a red light at River Road, two minutes for loading/offloading at the stop outside Mace, and then another sixty second delay at the red lights at the next junction. In other words, a 25 yard journey through Blanch village on a traffic-free Sunday took 5 minutes. No wonder most bus passengers want to buy their own car!

zynaps

AndrewMc wrote:

Any official numbers on the maneuverability of it around corners? The normal buses always seem to be pretty tight turning from St. Stephen's Green to Leeson Street as it is. This thing looks massive.

And Dame St to George's St can be pretty bad too, given how poorly (sheepishly, more like) people tend to drive in Dublin - instead of coming to a stop early coming down towards Dame St so people turning onto George's St won't hit them or be stuck doing a 9 point turn, they just cruise on and jut out, still stopped by the lights.
Stupid people.

shltter

markpb wrote:

If memory serves there's some union/staffing issue why the middle doors can't be used. Stupid though it seems, I guess from DB's point of view, they're better off buying a bus that can squeeze a few more people in than buying buses with doors that won't be used and which will eventually disable the bus if they are used.

The Issue was a safety one with regards to poor standard of Bus stops and an even poorer enforcement of parking regulations. The labour court ruled on it that it was up to drivers.
The decision was made that rather than confuse people by using the centre doors at stops that were OK and then not at others people would be basically running back and forward unsure of what door would open etc that it was better not to use the centre door at all.
The odd thing of course is that the company has spent millions on upgrading bus stops around the city with the higher level kerb etc and clamping and towing have been introduced to the city just when an end might be in sight to the centre door issue the company decided to buy a fleet with out any centre doors.
I agree these buses are very long to only have front door operation

John R

zynaps wrote:

And Dame St to George's St can be pretty bad too, given how poorly (sheepishly, more like) people tend to drive in Dublin - instead of coming to a stop early coming down towards Dame St so people turning onto George's St won't hit them or be stuck doing a 9 point turn, they just cruise on and jut out, still stopped by the lights.
Stupid people.

That right turn is bus only so the cars shouldn't be there at all.

markpb

shltter wrote:

I agree these buses are very long to only have front door operation

How many of them have been bought? Is there any chance the people responsible could be convinced to start buying double door buses in future?

BrianD

Saw one of these new buses driving south along Stephens Green East. Didn't see it take the turn at Leeson St. It was out of service so perhaps they were trialling it for drivers. It's big but not that big!

John R

Metrobest wrote:

It's down to mismanagement of the existing bus routes in the city, in my opinion. During the rush hour too many buses have to queue for access to the bus poles in places like Nassau Street and O'Connell Street. There is an unsafe ad-hoc boarding system where three buses can be loading and offloading from the same pole at the same time; one bus might be kerbside and the one behind it in the middle of road.

What do you suggest then?

Every available space on those streets that are allocated to Dublin Bus is already used. The tour coaches parked on Nassau st and the two spaces on O'Connell st. where three or four long distance private coaches often sit for up to half an hour in the evening peak could be better used but still there are far too many routes in the city centre for each to have dedicated stops.


I completely agree with the idea that single door operation is not adequate but for a number of reasons it seems to be the preferred layout for the majority of operators here and in the UK with the exception of London where dual door buses are a requirement of the TfL service contracts.

Here is a bunch of pics of mainly new buses from across large cities every bit as busy as Dublin where single-door buses are now the norm.

Glasgow tri-axle

Glasgow

Birmingham

Manchester

Manchester

Liverpool

Nottingham

Newcastle

Edinburgh

John R

markpb wrote:

How many of them have been bought? Is there any chance the people responsible could be convinced to start buying double door buses in future?

20 have been bought, they are to be exclusively used on the 46a route.

As for dual door buses in the future who knows, despite them never properly being used all the buses bought until the switch to low-floor in 2000 were dual door.

gjim

The Issue was a safety one with regards to poor standard of Bus stops and an even poorer enforcement of parking regulations. The labour court ruled on it that it was up to drivers.
The decision was made that rather than confuse people by using the centre doors at stops that were OK and then not at others people would be basically running back and forward unsure of what door would open etc that it was better not to use the centre door at all.

That's a reasonable decision. But why not buy buses with the extra door and just leave it unused, future proofing the buses for the day when the bus stops had been upgraded?

Metrobest

John R wrote:

What do you suggest then?

Every available space on those streets that are allocated to Dublin Bus is already used. The tour coaches parked on Nassau st and the two spaces on O'Connell st. where three or four long distance private coaches often sit for up to half an hour in the evening peak could be better used but still there are far too many routes in the city centre for each to have dedicated stop

First thing would be to remove those coach stops from Nassau. It might be a handy location for the American tourists, but those rows of parked coaches endanger cyclists and block a key section of the street. (Tour coaches like these should have a pull in/pick up bay outside the Mespil or some other suitable location close to the city centre.). Then move stops of the 7s and 45s etc down to where the coaches currently park.

Of the bus stops remaining in that section, split them between Nassau and Kildare Streets. In other words, the 14s and 15s which could run non-stop from Trinity to Kildare Street, but the 46 and 84 etc could stop at Nassau. With better spacing (Not having two buses sharing the one pole would be a start) , better time management (buses should not all be turning up at Nassau Street at the same time; there should be steady intervals between buses to avoid the problem), better stop design (Replace the bus poles with well-designed aesthethically-pleasing luas-style shelters) and better road design

markpb

shltter wrote:

The decision was made that rather than confuse people by using the centre doors at stops that were OK and then not at others people would be basically running back and forward unsure of what door would open etc that it was better not to use the centre door at all.

This attitude stinks of Dublin Bus. Why would passengers be confused by doors that only open at some stops?

It happens right now - there are already a small number of bus drivers who use middle doors at busy stops like O'Connell St and, strangely enough, passengers are rarely seen suffering from major brain cramp when an extra door they've never used before suddenly pops into existence.

From what I've read so far on this board:

- the drivers, in typical crazy Irish fashion, are somehow responsible if a passenger alights and is injured (say by a passing cyclist)
- the union kicks up a fuss so the drivers are instructed not to use the doors when its unsafe
- the drivers decide *never* to use the doors
- the doors become unreliable so now we can't use the doors at all.
- the doors aren't used so buses without extra doors are bought.

Didn't anyone in DB look at the situation and decide to fix it or do upper management actually use the bus at all?

Metrobest wrote:

With better spacing (Not having two buses sharing the one pole would be a start), better time management (buses should not all be turning up at Nassau Street at the same time; there should be steady intervals between buses to avoid the problem), better stop design (Replace the bus poles with well-designed aesthethically-pleasing luas-style shelters) and better road design

To be fair to DB, it's hard to stop buses turning up at the same time. There are some stupid examples like the 7 and 45 leaving the city centre at the same time but for routes running through the city centre, it would be almost impossible to plan for.

It would be nice to have proper bus shelters but I don't think there's space for them, especially not in the city centre. I've noticed lately that DCC seem happy to locate phone booths and street furniture right beside bus stops, usually completely blocking the view of the oncoming buses from these shelters. Drumcondra northbound outside the train station and the last bus stop in Fairview before the Malahide road junction are particularly bad.

shltter

markpb wrote:

This attitude stinks of Dublin Bus. Why would passengers be confused by doors that only open at some stops?

It happens right now - there are already a small number of bus drivers who use middle doors at busy stops like O'Connell St and, strangely enough, passengers are rarely seen suffering from major brain cramp when an extra door they've never used before suddenly pops into existence.

From what I've read so far on this board:

- the drivers, in typical crazy Irish fashion, are somehow responsible if a passenger alights and is injured (say by a passing cyclist)
- the union kicks up a fuss so the drivers are instructed not to use the doors when its unsafe
- the drivers decide *never* to use the doors
- the doors become unreliable so now we can't use the doors at all.
- the doors aren't used so buses without extra doors are bought.

Didn't anyone in DB look at the situation and decide to fix it or do upper management actually use the bus at all?

It is fine at stops in town or at termini when the bus is emptying but if 1 or 2 people are alighting and waiting at the centre door and it does not open some remain standing waiting some start pulling at the door thinking it is faulty. Then people get embarrassed because they think they have been made a fool of rows start why did you not open the doors this time you let the last person out of the centre doors etc etc people miss their stops and it would slow down the whole service.
It is either all or nothing unfortunately bar last stops or Busy city centre stops when the bus is emptying.


that is pretty much the state of play except of course as JohnR pointed out front only buses are being used by many companies in the UK these are not being made specially for Ireland so it would appear to be the current trend.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

-To be fair to DB, it's hard to stop buses turning up at the same time. There are some stupid examples like the 7 and 45 leaving the city centre at the same time but for routes running through the city centre, it would be almost impossible to plan for.

It would be nice to have proper bus shelters but I don't think there's space for them, especially not in the city centre. I've noticed lately that DCC seem happy to locate phone booths and street furniture right beside bus stops, usually completely blocking the view of the oncoming buses from these shelters. Drumcondra northbound outside the train station and the last bus stop in Fairview before the Malahide road junction are particularly bad.

Fair enough, the cross-city buses are hard to manage but along the Trinity-Nassau-Kildare/Merrion stretch, most of the routes depart from the city centre. Simple co-ordination and enforcement of correct departure times would eliminate a lot of this bunching up.

Instead of bus poles, there could be elongated bus shelters with real-time departure information - maybe threetimes the length of a luas shelter. The bus "stopping area" would be about 50m long like a tram platform. If two buses turned up at once passengers would know which part of the stopping area to stand at. For example, picture one of these at the stop of 14/15 on Nassau Street. Digital display says:
15A Limekiln Farm DUE
14A Dundrum 1 MIN
15B Templeogue 4 MIN
Passengers for the 15A move to the top end of the "platform" furthest away from Dawson Street, 14A in the middle and 15B passengers stay put.

A system like this could be put in place on city centre streets at a very low cost compared to the benefits it would bring, not just in terms of passenger comfort, but in operational efficiencies for Dublin Bus which translate into monetary gains for the taxpayer.

An example of what I'm talking about for Nassau St:

http://www.modelistica.com/_borders/barcel8.jpg

http://ddt.tepkom.ru/eng/..%5CPictures%5CBarcelona%5CBarcelona10.jpg

Aidan1

Any dual door bus stopping at the Central Bank opens both doors, if and when necessary. I've yet to see any confusion, or any driver not willing to do it when required.

markpb

Aidan1 wrote:

Any dual door bus stopping at the Central Bank opens both doors, if and when necessary. I've yet to see any confusion, or any driver not willing to do it when required.

Ditto for O'Connell street but it really isn't enough. There are huge benefits in terms of effeciency if everyone loaded by the front door and exited by the middle door, not just as busy stops but at every stop.

ballooba

Real time tracking??? The union wouldn't like that.

markpb

ballooba wrote:

Real time tracking??? The union wouldn't like that.

:P

To be fair to the union (never thought I'd hear myself say that) the major problem with RTIS appears to be the government foot dragging as usual. It's not a complicated project but a little bureaucracy goes a long way to making it take the best part of a decade.

shltter

ballooba wrote:

Real time tracking??? The union wouldn't like that.

Actually the unions have no problem with it why would they??

shltter

Aidan1 wrote:

Any dual door bus stopping at the Central Bank opens both doors, if and when necessary. I've yet to see any confusion, or any driver not willing to do it when required.

That is what I said it is fine in around town when the Bus is emptying

Nevyn

But at places like the Clanch shopping centre when half the 39 bus gets off,
and your waiting 3 to 7 mins just to get them all unloaded there should be
a second door for dismounting.

morlan

You can open the rear door by simply giving it a good yank and then it opens automatically. Done a few time myself when the bus is jammers.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

:P To be fair to the union (never thought I'd hear myself say that) the major problem with RTIS appears to be the government foot dragging as usual. It's not a complicated project but a little bureaucracy goes a long way to making it take the best part of a decade.

But there's been some sort of information display on the 25s and 66s for years now. What's the delay in rolling it out across the whole network? Dublin Bus moves like a tortoise on crutches.

Yet again private companies are shaming it. Prime example is The Aircoach, with its real time information website which tracks where each bus is a a given moment, and integrated ticketing on its network so you can travel seamlessly from Donnybrook to Belfast on one ticket and one price.

Another thing is integrated ticketing. A lot of waffle has been said about how difficult it is to work out a viable system. That's nonsense: Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail are under the same umbrella: Coras Iompair Eireann (bad name!). Why can't they integrate with each other? There was a problem with the DART the other day and I was reading that Dublin Bus would honour all DART tickets. Perfectly sensible. So why can't they do it every day?

I mean, why can't you walk up to a ticket machine at the bus shelter along the CIE 46A route and buy a ticket to, say, Castleknock on the CIE Commuter train. Or why can't you say to the bus driver: "Three zone ticket please", pay €2 and he pushes a button on his ticket machine and you get a ticket that says "8.46am THREE ZONES VALID FOR USE ON ALL CIE SERVICES WITHIN ZONE FOR NINETY MINUTES FROM TIME OF ISSUE". (Obviously the presentation of the ticket would look better than that!!!)

Seriously though. What's stopping CIE implementing such a simple system tomorrow?

shltter

Metrobest wrote:

But there's been some sort of information display on the 25s and 66s for years now. What's the delay in rolling it out across the whole network? Dublin Bus moves like a tortoise on crutches. ?

Money
http://www.dublinbus.ie/projects/real_time_passenger_information_system.asp

Metrobest wrote:

Yet again private companies are shaming it. Prime example is The Aircoach, with its real time information website which tracks where each bus is a a given moment, and integrated ticketing on its network so you can travel seamlessly from Donnybrook to Belfast on one ticket and one price. ?

As has been pointed out to you before on the occassions you make this point there is no comparison between Aircoach and Dublin Bus in relation to size and complexity of network.
Also WTF good would a similar system be to DB it might make you feel good but for the average DB user a website that will tell them where the bus is would be about as useful as chocolate boots in the desert.

Metrobest wrote:

Another thing is integrated ticketing. A lot of waffle has been said about how difficult it is to work out a viable system. That's nonsense: Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail are under the same umbrella: Coras Iompair Eireann (bad name!). Why can't they integrate with each other? There was a problem with the DART the other day and I was reading that Dublin Bus would honour all DART tickets. Perfectly sensible. So why can't they do it every day??

They do if you purchase a Dart/Bus ticket

Dublin Bus also has an arrangement with the LUAS( A non CIE company) to honour all LUAS tickets during a LUAS Breakdown of service

http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/daily.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/weekly.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/monthly.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/annual.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/other.asp#6

There you go that is integrated ticketing for daily weekly monthly or annual users

Metrobest wrote:

I mean, why can't you walk up to a ticket machine at the bus shelter along the CIE 46A route and buy a ticket to, say, Castleknock on the CIE Commuter train. Or why can't you say to the bus driver: "Three zone ticket please", pay €2 and he pushes a button on his ticket machine and you get a ticket that says "8.46am THREE ZONES VALID FOR USE ON ALL CIE SERVICES WITHIN ZONE FOR NINETY MINUTES FROM TIME OF ISSUE". (Obviously the presentation of the ticket would look better than that!!!)Seriously though. What's stopping CIE implementing such a simple system tomorrow
?

Because Dublin Bus has over 6500 Bus Stops in this city the cost of putting and servicing that number of ticket machine would be prohibitive

Dublin Bus suggested simplifying the ticketing arrangements last year the Department of Transport said NO

Travel 90 tickets are available for purchase at ticket agents

Tickets issued by the on board ticket machine are not machine readable checking tickets for time and zone that had been crumpled up in someones pocket for the last hour would be time consuming and costly.

There is also the division of income if the tickets are not machine readable you might buy the ticket on a bus for a short 2 stop journey to the Dart station and then take the Dart from greystones to Howth. Which company should get the income DB because they took the money or IE because they provided the majority of the service you used how would either company know who provided the majority of the service.

AFAIK the model for integrated ticketing that is planned for Dublin would involved a top up smart card that the passenger would scan into a reader on boarding Bus/train/luas when exiting the equipment would automatically pick up the card as having left the bus/train/luas and the ammount for the respective journey would be taken from the card.

markpb

shltter wrote:

There you go that is integrated ticketing for daily weekly monthly or annual users

If DB went one stage futher and made the 90 minute ticket (possibly the best idea in years) multi-modal (bus, dart *and* luas), I would be quite content at that solution for integrated ticketing - frequent passengers can use weekly/monthly tickets and everyone else can use the 90 minute ticket.

Division of fare wouldn't be as easy as with smart cards because it lacks exit validation but it would go a long way to achieving int.ticketing very simply (for everyone). For what it's worth, division of fare shouldn't be an issue on DB and Dart services because they're both (effectively) the same company. How do you do division for monthly and annual combined tickets?

shltter wrote:

Because Dublin Bus has over 6500 Bus Stops in this city the cost of putting and servicing that number of ticket machine would be prohibitive

Aye but wouldn't it be possible to put them at city centre and of the other some busy bus stops?

shltter wrote:

Dublin Bus suggested simplifying the ticketing arrangements last year the Department of Transport said NO

What changes did they suggest, just out of curiosity?

shltter wrote:

Tickets issued by the on board ticket machine are not machine readable checking tickets for time and zone that had been crumpled up in someones pocket for the last hour would be time consuming and costly.

In some other cities the driver sells a 90 minute ticket (or similar) and the passenger validates it immediately. It solves both problems but I don't think it's worth doing here. Selling the tickets individually (in shops) and from ticket machines would probably be a better solution.

shltter wrote:

AFAIK the model for integrated ticketing that is planned for Dublin would involved a top up smart card that the passenger would scan into a reader on boarding Bus/train/luas when exiting the equipment would automatically pick up the card as having left the bus/train/luas and the ammount for the respective journey would be taken from the card.

From what I've read, the first leg of the journey will be paid at the normal fare through entry and exit validation. If the same card is used in the same direction, the next time it is exit-validated, it will charge the full fare less a transfer fee, which was suggested at either 40c or 80c.

Sarsfield

markpb wrote:

For what it's worth, division of fare shouldn't be an issue on DB and Dart services because they're both (effectively) the same company.

Not really correct. Both companies are separate financial entities. Both have a legal obligation to produce their own accounts. The fact that they are under the CIE umbrella has no bearing.

SeanW

shltter wrote:

There is also the division of income if the tickets are not machine readable you might buy the ticket on a bus for a short 2 stop journey to the Dart station and then take the Dart from greystones to Howth. Which company should get the income DB because they took the money or IE because they provided the majority of the service you used how would either company know who provided the majority of the service.

Doesn't seem to be a problem in Berlin. There, rather than trying to measure every single passenger journey correctly and get fare distribution 100% correct, they seemingly just work off known usage levels.

The BVG just got its info website in order, and now has much better detailed info on their ticketing, including their universal day pass.

I don't know if you've ever been to Berlin, but their system is absolutely wonderful. You walk up to a ticket machine in the main train station or wherever, put €6 into the machine, and get a small piece of paper, which when validated in a nearby stamping machine, entitles you to travel anywhere in the city on virtually any public transport line for the entire day.

No "Smart" cards, no ticket scanning, no B.S. no nothing. We're lightyears behind.

zynaps

SeanW wrote:

I don't know if you've ever been to Berlin, but their system is absolutely wonderful. You walk up to a ticket machine in the main train station or wherever, put €6 into the machine, and get a small piece of paper, which when validated in a nearby stamping machine, entitles you to travel anywhere in the city on virtually any public transport line for the entire day.

No "Smart" cards, no ticket scanning, no B.S. no nothing. We're lightyears behind.

I spent a day in Berlin on the way back from Warsaw all of three years ago, and it was a lovely place, with a very efficient mass transit system. The tickets were a bit expensive though.

Warsaw now, that was a shocker. A little over 9 euro got me a student monthly smart-card that got me 24-hour travel anywhere in the entire city (which is quite big), on buses, trams or the underground system, none of which seemed notably tardy. You just had to register the card by passing it over the reader, and as long as you had the card with you, you were fine - after the card was registered, you didn't even need to swipe it on the bus, although readers controlled access gates in the tube and probably tram. People would just whip their bags over the sensor and it'd pick up the card.

_Kaiser_

shltter wrote:

Also WTF good would a similar system be to DB it might make you feel good but for the average DB user a website that will tell them where the bus is would be about as useful as chocolate boots in the desert.

I'd say it's more useful than the BUSTXT service which only tells you when the bus (allegedly!) left the terminus - which may be on the other side of the city! - at least they have it in Real-Time

Besides, with all the 3G/GPRS enabled mobiles out there, all they need to do is make a page that will work with these and I believe that answers your point entirely.

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I'd say it's more useful than the BUSTXT service which only tells you when the bus (allegedly!) left the terminus - which may be on the other side of the city! - at least they have it in Real-Time

Besides, with all the 3G/GPRS enabled mobiles out there, all they need to do is make a page that will work with these and I believe that answers your point entirely.

And how many of the average Bus users in dublin have 3G/GPRS enabled mobiles and know how to use them.

shltter

SeanW wrote:

Doesn't seem to be a problem in Berlin. There, rather than trying to measure every single passenger journey correctly and get fare distribution 100% correct, they seemingly just work off known usage levels.

The BVG just got its info website in order, and now has much better detailed info on their ticketing, including their universal day pass.

I don't know if you've ever been to Berlin, but their system is absolutely wonderful. You walk up to a ticket machine in the main train station or wherever, put €6 into the machine, and get a small piece of paper, which when validated in a nearby stamping machine, entitles you to travel anywhere in the city on virtually any public transport line for the entire day.

No "Smart" cards, no ticket scanning, no B.S. no nothing. We're lightyears behind.

As Sarsfield pointed out the companies are separate financial entities and LUAS is a completely separate company altogether judging from the website BVG would appear to be one company.

shltter

markpb wrote:

If DB went one stage futher and made the 90 minute ticket (possibly the best idea in years) multi-modal (bus, dart *and* luas), I would be quite content at that solution for integrated ticketing - frequent passengers can use weekly/monthly tickets and everyone else can use the 90 minute ticket.

Division of fare wouldn't be as easy as with smart cards because it lacks exit validation but it would go a long way to achieving int.ticketing very simply (for everyone). For what it's worth, division of fare shouldn't be an issue on DB and Dart services because they're both (effectively) the same company. How do you do division for monthly and annual combined tickets?



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The problem there as I would see it is that If someone buys a LUAS/BUS ticket then they obviously intend to use both systems the companies obviously have a method that they are both satisfied with for dividing the income. A ticket for all three might involve paying money to a company for providing no service
Therefore you would need a transfer 90 just bus/ just LUAS/ just DART
and then LUAS/BUS LuAS/DART DART/BUS and LUAS/DART/BUS because of the Fare differences for using the different systems one that did all 3 would be to expensive for someone just using the BUS.

SeanW

shltter wrote:

As Sarsfield pointed out the companies are separate financial entities and LUAS is a completely separate company altogether judging from the website BVG would appear to be one company.

No, there are multiple companies though BVG runs a lot of it. Deutsche Bahn runs the S-Bahn. That's about half of the Berlin Metro mass transit system. I'm sure there are other bits owned by other companies as well.

So there is no impediment to implementing a BVG style agency here in Dublin, except public agency competence which seems to be in short supply. Absolutely nothing ...

Metrobest

shltter wrote:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/daily.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/weekly.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/monthly.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/annual.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/other.asp#6

There you go that is integrated ticketing for daily weekly monthly or annual users

Travel 90 tickets are available for purchase at ticket agents

Tickets issued by the on board ticket machine are not machine readable checking tickets for time and zone that had been crumpled up in someones pocket for the last hour would be time consuming and costly.

AFAIK the model for integrated ticketing that is planned for Dublin would involved a top up smart card that the passenger would scan into a reader on boarding Bus/train/luas when exiting the equipment would automatically pick up the card as having left the bus/train/luas and the ammount for the respective journey would be taken from the card.

That's not integrated ticketing, shi**er. The travel 90s come only in "handy"packs of 10 - nothing handy about that for the occasional user who doesn't want to traipse into a Dublin Bus newsagent and buy a book of tickets they'll probably lose.

The other "integrated" ticket options also feature some nasty flaws. The weekly tickets are over-priced at E19 - for most of the suburbs maximum fare is 1.75, so you'd have be making more than five weekly return journeys at maximum fare to bothered getting that ticket in a Dublin Bus newsagent, bearing in mind that the planning of Dublin is such that many people live a fair hike away from their nearest newsagent. (It might be more popular if the weeklies were available at TVMs on the busy routes.)

Most people on luas are on weeklies because there's a sign on ticket machine explaining that if you make four return journeys a weekly is cheaper. The luas weekly ticket is I think E14 - much better value.

Changing work and travel patterns mean that not everyone wants to use the bus or the luas EVERY DAY, and therefore a transport company needs to provide a range of ticket options that meet people's needs.

Look at any Dublin Bus route inbound where the fare to the city centre is 1.30 or 90c. Most passengers pay cash. They pay cash because even if you take the bus in and out every day and pay cash it's still CHEAPER than buying a weekly (7 x 2.60 = 18.20). Obviously, cash-fare passengers delay bus routes by lengthening dwell times at stops. Longer dwell times mean longer journey times, and longer journey times mean each bus is failing to deliver its potential. The biggest losers are taxpayers and Dublin Bus.

Dublin Bus operates a penal fare structure that is anti-integration and anti-public transport. Consider this example. You are traveling on the 39 into town on a 1.75 ticket and you want to stop off in Stoneybatter for five minutes to pick up something, and even though you'll be getting on the exact same bus and route, you have to buy another ticket. Your one way fare is now 2.65 (or 3.05 if it's 1.30 from Stoneybatter into town? - see how confusing the fare structure is?) It's nonsensical. It's just one of the reasons why people prefer their cars. I don't blame them.

The goal of Dublin Bus should be that the occasional bus user decides to use the bus to go shopping or whatever, finds the experience so pleasant and simple that they decide to use the bus all the time . Unfortunately, that never happens. Talk to any militant car driver and they'll tell you the reason they drive so much is that they hate the buses so much. Failure to change, failure to modernise and cater for customers' needs has left Dublin Bus out in cold. The success of the luas in luring passengers from buses has shown in harsh light the failures of Dublin Bus, and the positive benefits of passenger-friendly initiatives on PT.

Lastly, I don't get your point about crumpled up tickets. That problem is rectified simply by printing the time and date in LARGE, BOLD type. In fairness, it would probably be quicker than the cash-fare system which leaves people fumbling in their purses and drivers trying to figure out if they've put in 1.30 or 1.50.

I'm not sure if the RPA's smart cards are the way forward. They appear, to me at least, to be quite slow and I can imagine them being even slower than the card readers on board the double deckers, if every passenger were to have to wave the ticket over the smart card validator as they enter the bus through its solitary front door. Nor do the smart cards address the fundamental flaws in fare and ticket structure that I mention above.