People standing on street corners beware!

John R

http://www.freewebs.com/itv2/vts.htm



Glad I don't have to drive it around Dublin.

Zaph0d

I was hit by one of these in Switzerland earlier this year. I was standing at the bus stop, and of course the bus comes from the opposite direction to Ireland. The driver beeped just as the mirror caught me on the back of the skull.

I must be very thick or the mirror must be spring loaded because it didn't hurt.

shltter

Zaph0d wrote:

I must be very thick or the mirror must be spring loaded because it didn't hurt.

I know which option I am going with.

AndrewMc

Any official numbers on the maneuverability of it around corners? The normal buses always seem to be pretty tight turning from St. Stephen's Green to Leeson Street as it is. This thing looks massive.

Maskhadov

Was that the bus that hit those pedestrians ? It looks like a dublin bus on steroids Twin axels kick ass.

loyatemu

how much bigger than the normal double-deckers is that thing?

MarkoP11

It seats 92 most of the double decker fleet can only manage that with standing

It looks from the side to be stretched AV class (ALX400) which has had an extra window added. It will be interesting to see how this manages to get round Dawson Street to Nassau Street

SeanW

If at all.

Well as for the size of it, if we are going to use buses where we should have Metros and Luases, might as well do it in style.

Zaph0d

no centre door
no rear door
nice one

markpb

Zaph0d wrote:

no centre door
no rear door
nice one

*sigh*

What a load of crap. I wouldn't want to be the person battling to get off one of those before the city centre/terminus. Why are DB so against effecient loading/unloading?

Aidan1

If the second axle steers, it could well turn very tightly. That isn't going to do anything about the length of the thing, but it will help.

D'Peoples Voice

what date is the strike?
I'm assuming that the bus drivers like their cousins in the DART netwrok,
will be going on strike because they are being asked to drive a bus that has an additional axle and can carry more passengers.
Well they are CIE members after all!

What's that the DART drivers were complaining about..... that's it, more responsibility because of additional passsengers, so they need to be paid more.

If only they could have introduced that bus earlier, then the bus drivers could have gone on strike last friday, and killed two birds with one stone/strike!

Berkel

I would say there is steering in the second axle but normally the drive wheel comes before the third and then the last axle countersteers. I cant see how the second axle steering will help. Surely these things have an even longer turning circle than those bendy-buses they are not buying anymore?!

Maskhadov

Bus eireann should follow suit and introduce twin axels on all its inter city fleet

Seth Brundle

Zaph0d wrote:

no centre door
no rear door
nice one

Are there safety [e.g. fire] implications for this?

MarkoP11

Rear emergency exit is on the off side (which makes sense if the bus is on its side as there will always be one exit)

The excuse with the AV class was the wheel chair space took up the space for the middle doors, but if the bus is 1m longer it can fit so why is it missing its going to take ages to empty at terminus

Zaph0d

MarkoP11 wrote:

so why is it missing

because the drivers are more important than the passengers?

markpb

If memory serves there's some union/staffing issue why the middle doors can't be used. Stupid though it seems, I guess from DB's point of view, they're better off buying a bus that can squeeze a few more people in than buying buses with doors that won't be used and which will eventually disable the bus if they are used.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

If memory serves there's some union/staffing issue why the middle doors can't be used. Stupid though it seems, I guess from DB's point of view, they're better off buying a bus that can squeeze a few more people in than buying buses with doors that won't be used and which will eventually disable the bus if they are used.

It's down to mismanagement of the existing bus routes in the city, in my opinion. During the rush hour too many buses have to queue for access to the bus poles in places like Nassau Street and O'Connell Street. There is an unsafe ad-hoc boarding system where three buses can be loading and offloading from the same pole at the same time; one bus might be kerbside and the one behind it in the middle of road. For some reasons Dublin Bus finds is acceptable to disgorge passengers into the middle of dangerous city centre streets, yet is unable to operate the rear doors on existing (older) buses which have them, or design its stops in such a way to make it "safe".

Rather than tackle the real problem - poor bus stop design - Dublin Bus chooses to sweep the issue under the carpet by purchasing for the most bus-dependent capital city in Europe a fleet of buses made inefficient by cumbersome front door bottlenecks. Thereby making it impossible to reduce dwell times at stops even if stop design was improved.

Bad buses and bad bus stops mean long dwell times at stops, chaotic queues and slow journey times. It makes an already-unattractive public transport mode even more unpleasant. It's a catch 22 situation. Journey times cannot be improved, even with QBCs, when you have the absurd scenario of mothers with buggies trying to force their way onto the bus past passengers standing at the front of the bus; while battling against other passengers trying to get off the damn thing! The front doors are for boarding, but why not rear and middle doors for exiting the vehicle? Who is in charge of this bad bus-buying fiasco?

A journey from the city centre to Blanchardstown yesterday (Sunday) should have taken no more than twenty minutes in light traffic. It took forty, plus 15 minutes waiting. There were long dwell times at every stop as passengers battled through standing passengers to get on and off. The light sequences didn't help either. I counted a ninety second delay at a red light at River Road, two minutes for loading/offloading at the stop outside Mace, and then another sixty second delay at the red lights at the next junction. In other words, a 25 yard journey through Blanch village on a traffic-free Sunday took 5 minutes. No wonder most bus passengers want to buy their own car!

zynaps

AndrewMc wrote:

Any official numbers on the maneuverability of it around corners? The normal buses always seem to be pretty tight turning from St. Stephen's Green to Leeson Street as it is. This thing looks massive.

And Dame St to George's St can be pretty bad too, given how poorly (sheepishly, more like) people tend to drive in Dublin - instead of coming to a stop early coming down towards Dame St so people turning onto George's St won't hit them or be stuck doing a 9 point turn, they just cruise on and jut out, still stopped by the lights.
Stupid people.

shltter

markpb wrote:

If memory serves there's some union/staffing issue why the middle doors can't be used. Stupid though it seems, I guess from DB's point of view, they're better off buying a bus that can squeeze a few more people in than buying buses with doors that won't be used and which will eventually disable the bus if they are used.

The Issue was a safety one with regards to poor standard of Bus stops and an even poorer enforcement of parking regulations. The labour court ruled on it that it was up to drivers.
The decision was made that rather than confuse people by using the centre doors at stops that were OK and then not at others people would be basically running back and forward unsure of what door would open etc that it was better not to use the centre door at all.
The odd thing of course is that the company has spent millions on upgrading bus stops around the city with the higher level kerb etc and clamping and towing have been introduced to the city just when an end might be in sight to the centre door issue the company decided to buy a fleet with out any centre doors.
I agree these buses are very long to only have front door operation

John R

zynaps wrote:

And Dame St to George's St can be pretty bad too, given how poorly (sheepishly, more like) people tend to drive in Dublin - instead of coming to a stop early coming down towards Dame St so people turning onto George's St won't hit them or be stuck doing a 9 point turn, they just cruise on and jut out, still stopped by the lights.
Stupid people.

That right turn is bus only so the cars shouldn't be there at all.

markpb

shltter wrote:

I agree these buses are very long to only have front door operation

How many of them have been bought? Is there any chance the people responsible could be convinced to start buying double door buses in future?

BrianD

Saw one of these new buses driving south along Stephens Green East. Didn't see it take the turn at Leeson St. It was out of service so perhaps they were trialling it for drivers. It's big but not that big!

John R

Metrobest wrote:

It's down to mismanagement of the existing bus routes in the city, in my opinion. During the rush hour too many buses have to queue for access to the bus poles in places like Nassau Street and O'Connell Street. There is an unsafe ad-hoc boarding system where three buses can be loading and offloading from the same pole at the same time; one bus might be kerbside and the one behind it in the middle of road.

What do you suggest then?

Every available space on those streets that are allocated to Dublin Bus is already used. The tour coaches parked on Nassau st and the two spaces on O'Connell st. where three or four long distance private coaches often sit for up to half an hour in the evening peak could be better used but still there are far too many routes in the city centre for each to have dedicated stops.


I completely agree with the idea that single door operation is not adequate but for a number of reasons it seems to be the preferred layout for the majority of operators here and in the UK with the exception of London where dual door buses are a requirement of the TfL service contracts.

Here is a bunch of pics of mainly new buses from across large cities every bit as busy as Dublin where single-door buses are now the norm.

Glasgow tri-axle

Glasgow

Birmingham

Manchester

Manchester

Liverpool

Nottingham

Newcastle

Edinburgh

John R

markpb wrote:

How many of them have been bought? Is there any chance the people responsible could be convinced to start buying double door buses in future?

20 have been bought, they are to be exclusively used on the 46a route.

As for dual door buses in the future who knows, despite them never properly being used all the buses bought until the switch to low-floor in 2000 were dual door.

gjim

The Issue was a safety one with regards to poor standard of Bus stops and an even poorer enforcement of parking regulations. The labour court ruled on it that it was up to drivers.
The decision was made that rather than confuse people by using the centre doors at stops that were OK and then not at others people would be basically running back and forward unsure of what door would open etc that it was better not to use the centre door at all.

That's a reasonable decision. But why not buy buses with the extra door and just leave it unused, future proofing the buses for the day when the bus stops had been upgraded?

Metrobest

John R wrote:

What do you suggest then?

Every available space on those streets that are allocated to Dublin Bus is already used. The tour coaches parked on Nassau st and the two spaces on O'Connell st. where three or four long distance private coaches often sit for up to half an hour in the evening peak could be better used but still there are far too many routes in the city centre for each to have dedicated stop

First thing would be to remove those coach stops from Nassau. It might be a handy location for the American tourists, but those rows of parked coaches endanger cyclists and block a key section of the street. (Tour coaches like these should have a pull in/pick up bay outside the Mespil or some other suitable location close to the city centre.). Then move stops of the 7s and 45s etc down to where the coaches currently park.

Of the bus stops remaining in that section, split them between Nassau and Kildare Streets. In other words, the 14s and 15s which could run non-stop from Trinity to Kildare Street, but the 46 and 84 etc could stop at Nassau. With better spacing (Not having two buses sharing the one pole would be a start) , better time management (buses should not all be turning up at Nassau Street at the same time; there should be steady intervals between buses to avoid the problem), better stop design (Replace the bus poles with well-designed aesthethically-pleasing luas-style shelters) and better road design

markpb

shltter wrote:

The decision was made that rather than confuse people by using the centre doors at stops that were OK and then not at others people would be basically running back and forward unsure of what door would open etc that it was better not to use the centre door at all.

This attitude stinks of Dublin Bus. Why would passengers be confused by doors that only open at some stops?

It happens right now - there are already a small number of bus drivers who use middle doors at busy stops like O'Connell St and, strangely enough, passengers are rarely seen suffering from major brain cramp when an extra door they've never used before suddenly pops into existence.

From what I've read so far on this board:

- the drivers, in typical crazy Irish fashion, are somehow responsible if a passenger alights and is injured (say by a passing cyclist)
- the union kicks up a fuss so the drivers are instructed not to use the doors when its unsafe
- the drivers decide *never* to use the doors
- the doors become unreliable so now we can't use the doors at all.
- the doors aren't used so buses without extra doors are bought.

Didn't anyone in DB look at the situation and decide to fix it or do upper management actually use the bus at all?

Metrobest wrote:

With better spacing (Not having two buses sharing the one pole would be a start), better time management (buses should not all be turning up at Nassau Street at the same time; there should be steady intervals between buses to avoid the problem), better stop design (Replace the bus poles with well-designed aesthethically-pleasing luas-style shelters) and better road design

To be fair to DB, it's hard to stop buses turning up at the same time. There are some stupid examples like the 7 and 45 leaving the city centre at the same time but for routes running through the city centre, it would be almost impossible to plan for.

It would be nice to have proper bus shelters but I don't think there's space for them, especially not in the city centre. I've noticed lately that DCC seem happy to locate phone booths and street furniture right beside bus stops, usually completely blocking the view of the oncoming buses from these shelters. Drumcondra northbound outside the train station and the last bus stop in Fairview before the Malahide road junction are particularly bad.

shltter

markpb wrote:

This attitude stinks of Dublin Bus. Why would passengers be confused by doors that only open at some stops?

It happens right now - there are already a small number of bus drivers who use middle doors at busy stops like O'Connell St and, strangely enough, passengers are rarely seen suffering from major brain cramp when an extra door they've never used before suddenly pops into existence.

From what I've read so far on this board:

- the drivers, in typical crazy Irish fashion, are somehow responsible if a passenger alights and is injured (say by a passing cyclist)
- the union kicks up a fuss so the drivers are instructed not to use the doors when its unsafe
- the drivers decide *never* to use the doors
- the doors become unreliable so now we can't use the doors at all.
- the doors aren't used so buses without extra doors are bought.

Didn't anyone in DB look at the situation and decide to fix it or do upper management actually use the bus at all?

It is fine at stops in town or at termini when the bus is emptying but if 1 or 2 people are alighting and waiting at the centre door and it does not open some remain standing waiting some start pulling at the door thinking it is faulty. Then people get embarrassed because they think they have been made a fool of rows start why did you not open the doors this time you let the last person out of the centre doors etc etc people miss their stops and it would slow down the whole service.
It is either all or nothing unfortunately bar last stops or Busy city centre stops when the bus is emptying.


that is pretty much the state of play except of course as JohnR pointed out front only buses are being used by many companies in the UK these are not being made specially for Ireland so it would appear to be the current trend.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

-To be fair to DB, it's hard to stop buses turning up at the same time. There are some stupid examples like the 7 and 45 leaving the city centre at the same time but for routes running through the city centre, it would be almost impossible to plan for.

It would be nice to have proper bus shelters but I don't think there's space for them, especially not in the city centre. I've noticed lately that DCC seem happy to locate phone booths and street furniture right beside bus stops, usually completely blocking the view of the oncoming buses from these shelters. Drumcondra northbound outside the train station and the last bus stop in Fairview before the Malahide road junction are particularly bad.

Fair enough, the cross-city buses are hard to manage but along the Trinity-Nassau-Kildare/Merrion stretch, most of the routes depart from the city centre. Simple co-ordination and enforcement of correct departure times would eliminate a lot of this bunching up.

Instead of bus poles, there could be elongated bus shelters with real-time departure information - maybe threetimes the length of a luas shelter. The bus "stopping area" would be about 50m long like a tram platform. If two buses turned up at once passengers would know which part of the stopping area to stand at. For example, picture one of these at the stop of 14/15 on Nassau Street. Digital display says:
15A Limekiln Farm DUE
14A Dundrum 1 MIN
15B Templeogue 4 MIN
Passengers for the 15A move to the top end of the "platform" furthest away from Dawson Street, 14A in the middle and 15B passengers stay put.

A system like this could be put in place on city centre streets at a very low cost compared to the benefits it would bring, not just in terms of passenger comfort, but in operational efficiencies for Dublin Bus which translate into monetary gains for the taxpayer.

An example of what I'm talking about for Nassau St:

http://www.modelistica.com/_borders/barcel8.jpg

http://ddt.tepkom.ru/eng/..%5CPictures%5CBarcelona%5CBarcelona10.jpg