Will Schwarzenegger "terminate" Williams? [merged]

tj-music.com

I don't think it is an easy choice to make for the gouvernor.

Basically, Stanley Wiiliams who has been sentenced to death after being convicted for (supposedly, because he denies the charges) killing four people back in 1981 is due for his leathal injection on December 13th.

Since his imprisonment he "changed". He wrote some childrens books and "warned" people of getting involved in gangs and has even been nominated for the peace price. Snoop Dogg and Bianca Jagger are only two of many who currently fight for his life.

On the other hand, Williams founded the "crips" gang and they caused some havoc in the states and people got killed in the events. So he is NOT another black and not guilty chap, even though he obviously is sorry for the things he did in the past.

All it comes down to is a yes or no to finally follow through and fulfill the death sentence.

So far, Schwarzenegger has denied a pardon for two other convicted prisoners and had them both killed according to their sentences.

So, will he go through this time?

I personally oppose the death penalty although their have been cases in the past where even I thought it is perhaps best to get rid of these harmful individuals. But then, looking back, I recon it is not up to me to deside who lives and who dies and I am glad it is not my choice to make.

What is your opinion on this case and the death penalty in general.

Culchie

I heard about this case a couple of weeks ago.

This fellah should definitely be pardoned, and I say he will.

JohnK

I oppose the death penalty regardless of the crime so I do think he should be pardoned. However, Schwarzenegger is doing badly in the polls and 65% of California supports the death penalty so that’s a big incentive for him to just do nothing

...even though he obviously is sorry for the things he did in the past...

According to news reports he has never expressed any form of regret for his actions or for founding the gang but that being said his anti-gang books are a positive influence so its better for society to let him live.

Manic Moran

JohnK wrote:

According to news reports he has never expressed any form of regret for his actions or for founding the gang but that being said his anti-gang books are a positive influence so its better for society to let him live.

One of the first arguments in favour of clemency is that he man has to show repentance. You can't repent for something you deny you ever did. Even his lawyers aren't trying to get the 'innocent of the crime' angle, and the evidence of his crime is pretty cut and dry. (Evidence later submitted at appeals included information on a 1979 escape plan which involved pre-meditated murder of a guard). He threatened the jurors.

He has written two books. The first sold 330 copies. The second sold 2. I'm not sure it's much of an influence. He's not much of a positive influence on his son, who's also in jail.

Now, that said, he has done telephone interviews, church speeches (by remote), and otherwise done some good deeds since. There is a large, popular movement to keep him alive. (There is also a large, popular movement to make him dead, but they are generally less vocal since they just need to leave the status quo). Given the Governator's currently shaky political position (But it's getting better again), I can see why there is a serious temptation to grant clemency. If he were to do that, however, he may also weaken his own home base support. Party-line-voting is commonplace in the US, the majority of clemency supporters are Democrats, and will never vote for anyone on a Republican ticket no matter what they do.

The nutshell though, is regardless of the works he has done since, we are faced with a quadruple-homicide killer, convicted on evidence about as solid as it comes (Witnesses saw him kill, he used his own firearm to do it), who has shown absolutely no remorse or repentance for the crimes of which he was convicted. That is what he has been sentenced on, and that is what the Governor should be looking at in determining whether the sentence truly does fit the crime.

Personal opinions on the death penalty are irrelevant at this point: The laws of California permit it, and the next of kin of the slain have probably been waiting for the court's punishment to be carried out for twenty years plus, and expect it. (A tradition I like from Saudi beheadings, the next of kin of the murdered is asked at the last minute if they are willing to commute the sentence) The issue isn't over 'if the death penalty should be allowed', it's 'should the penalty be commuted in this case?'

I'd say that the Governor is going to earn his pay cheque this week making this decision, if he were getting paid. Assuming clemency is not granted, my next question is 'is LA going to riot again?'. California is making preparations to deal with that if it happens.

NTM

Uthur

Arnie says bugger off - or is that 'you are terminated!?'

Seriously, no clemency for Tookie? Obviously he was a murdering scumbag
once - but he's been nominated for the nobel peace prize FIVE times
since then!

Is there no such thing as redemption or forgiveness in America today
or what?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.execution/index.html

bagdaddy

Sick country, whats wrong with just locking him away forever?

Manic Moran

Obviously he was a murdering scumbag once -

Actually, he was a muderous scumbag twice, and planned more killings even when in jail.

but he's been nominated for the nobel peace prize FIVE times
since then

In fairness, that doesn't mean much. Some people deserve their nominations, others are purely political. I should add that Hitler received one nomination, and Stalin two. (Though Hitler's was subsequently withdrawn after he invaded Poland later that year)

Is there no such thing as redemption or forgiveness in America today
or what?

Sure there is. That's why the whole clemency option is available to Governors. But a big part in forgiving someone is for the othe person to say 'I'm sorry'. This didn't happen.

whats wrong with just locking him away forever?

The People of the Great State of California, as represented by their duly elected officials and the judicial officers which they appointed, have decided that the crimes he committed are such that simply locking him away forever is insufficient. (Though 25 years is pretty damned close to forever!)

Full text of the Governor's deciscion here:
http://www.governor.ca.gov/govsite/pdf/press_release_2005/Williams_Clemency_Decision.pdf

NTM

Ray777

I think this judgement shows what a disgustingly backward-thinking country the USA is.

Manic Moran

The US is certainly backward thinking in some areas, I'd be well wrong to argue otherwise.

Not so sure that applies in this case, however.

NTM

Laguna

I see no reason why he should be granted clemency, the fact that he claims to be a changed man excuses the fact he is a murderer?.

Saying that though, I do feel the death penalty should be abolished, murdering to solve murder?.

Our man in Havana

The bible says "an eye for an eye". But I still think that Schwarzenegger was wrong here. More LA riots later today?

was their riots already about it?im sure that african americans will feel that the the reason no clemency was granted was due to the colour of his skin.

Manic Moran

No, unsurprisingly, LA is fairly quiet.

NTM

GOAT_Ali

I see most are all sympathetic towards this guy. Not one has bothered to mention his victims or their family. He committed murder and deserves to die. I do agree with capital punishment in certain circumstances

tj-music.com

Whatever the feelings: The execution of "Tookie" Williams took place and Schwarzenegger said that there is no doubt in his mind that Williams is guilty of the four murders and therefore he sees no reason to pardon him.

tj-music.com

see thread: Will Schwarzenegger "terminate" Williams?

swiss

This Williams character doesn't strike me as reformed. I suspect that many of the "good deeds" he has done have been motivated by a desire to demonstrate how changed he is in an effort to get clemency. Of course I could be wrong, but even if I am, I can't say I'll be terribly sorry to see him die. I do have reservations about the death penalty in general, but these crimes were particularly heinous, and now it's time for him to pay the price.

Blisterman

Well, the state of california have murdered Tookie Williams.

Orion

Bond-007 wrote:

The bible says "an eye for an eye".

The bible also says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Which of the two would you prefer to be the ideal of society?

IMO the death penalty is wrong in all circumstances - no exception. It has been proven again and again that it is no deterrent to serious crime. It also runs the risk of innocent people being executed which has happened more than once. As for the US situation they have on numerous occasions executed people who were minors at the time of their offences and retarded people - in violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the UNCHR. The Supreme court ruled this year that no retarded people could be executed but many already have been.

(Note that I'm only singling out the US here because of the subject being discussed. Other countries have done worse although the US is near the top of the league for judicial executions).

Eoin

GOAT_Ali wrote:

I see most are all sympathetic towards this guy. Not one has bothered to mention his victims or their family. He committed murder and deserves to die. I do agree with capital punishment in certain circumstances

Penal servitude (and execution) is not only about punishing the offender, it is also about what is best for society in general. This is why some people don't see any jail time; because society will not benefit by them doing jail time.

In this case, it could be argued that society was benefitting more with the man alive, than it will with him dead. It seems evident that his work had a positive direct impact on reducing crime, so I think society would be better served with him alive.

mentalson

the main problem was that in order to have a chance for clemecy he would have had to show some remorse and guilt for the murders.
However because he maintained his innocence he was unable to do this. i.e you can't show remorse for something that you didn't do.
Arnie was saying that there was no reason to suggest that the conviction was unsound which means that he committed the murders which means he showed no remorse for killing those people.

gandalf

Merged the two threads.

FatherTed

The only way Arnie was going to grant clemency was if he is against the death penalty himself. Also, the major criteria for granting clemency is for the defendant to admit remorse. Which Tookie Williams never did.

I'm personally against the death penalty but Williams never said sorry for the murders he committed.

Red Alert

i think he should be granted clemency. and the bible said an eye for an eye in the old testament - jesus teaches forgiveness in the new testament, you should forgive your brother not 7 but 77 times! how can anyone's good name ever be recovered if they've been put to death and found not guilty?

imagine if ireland had the death penalty and sent Nora Wall to the chair on her rape conviction (which she was cleared in full of). so a court of law has found the person lawfully guilty as the court did in her case with the evidence that the jury heard and told was acceptable. she finally got her miscarriage of justice cert a long time and many newspaper articles later. but there'd be no bringing her back if we'd already zapped her. what happens if the real killer is discovered later? or if this guy acted in self defence?

for what it's worth, while the USA still barbarically kills its citizens, any governor who's prepared to put someone to death shouldn't be able to hide behind multiple-executioner switches, random anonymous executions or electronic scramblers or whatever. that vile man should have to go down and push the execution button himself and be seen to do so. or is the 'terminator' just a yellow coward?

Manic Moran

Red Alert wrote:

imagine if ireland had the death penalty and sent Nora Wall to the chair on her rape conviction (which she was cleared in full of).

Wouldn't have been an issue in California. Six years after the conviction, (Nora Wall's case) Tookie still had another eighteen years and multiple courts to appeal to.

or if this guy acted in self defence?

You're joking, right? He put a shotgun to the back of his head and pulled the trigger. Killing three more people two weeks later is really pushing any self defense argument.

NTM

Red Alert

suppose witnesses for example are lying? there's no going back if you've sent someone to death.

Manic Moran

In this week's news, Arnold has blasted his home-town of Graz for being critical of his refusal to grant clemency.

________________

By JENNIFER COLEMAN
Associated Press Writer
Dec 19 6:51 PM US/Eastern

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Monday told officials in his hometown in Austria to remove his name from a sports stadium and stop using his identity to promote the city. The governor's request came after politicians in Graz began a petition drive to rename the stadium, reacting to Schwarzenegger's decision last week to deny clemency to condemned inmate Stanley Tookie Williams. Opposition to the death penalty is strong in Austria.

In a letter that began "Dear Mister Mayor," Schwarzenegger said he decided to spare the Graz city council "further concern" should he be forced to make other clemency decisions while he's governor. Another inmate is scheduled to be executed in California Jan. 17.

"In all likelihood, during my term as governor, I will have to make similar and equally difficult decisions," Schwarzenegger said in the letter. "To spare the responsible politicians of the city of Graz further concern, I withdraw from them as of this day the right to use my name in association with the Liebenauer Stadium."

The stadium was renamed for the former Hollywood star in 1997. He asked that the lettering be removed by year's end.

Schwarzenegger spokeswoman Margita Thompson said the letter was faxed Monday to the Graz city hall. The city council was expected to take up the matter next month.

In the letter, Schwarzenegger also said he would no longer permit the use of his name "to advertise or promote the city of Graz in any way" and would return the city's "ring of honor."

The ring was given to him in a ceremony in Graz in 1999. At the time, Schwarzenegger said he considered it "a token of sincere friendship between my hometown and me."

"Since, however, the official Graz appears to no longer accept me as one of their own, this ring has lost its meaning and value to me. It is already in the mail," the governor wrote.

Williams, co-founder of the Crips gang, was convicted of four 1979 murders. He was executed shortly after midnight Dec. 13
___________________

The next day...
___________________
Dec 20, 9:17 PM EST

By WILLIAM J. KOLE
Associated Press Writer

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- The mayor of Arnold Schwarzenegger's Austrian hometown on Tuesday begged the California governor to reconsider his decision to cut ties to the city after locals assailed him for his death penalty stance.

Siegfried Nagl, mayor of the southern city of Graz, said he wrote Schwarzenegger pleading with him not to return a ring of honor bestowed on him by officials in his birthplace in 1999 and reassuring him that most residents still admire him.

"I hope that very soon we'll hear you say, 'I'll be back,'" Nagl told the actor-turned-politician, one of Austria's most famous sons.

On Monday, Schwarzenegger caused a stir by turning the tables on Austrians who criticized the governor's refusal to block the executions of convicted killers. He sent Graz officials a letter asking them to remove his name from a soccer stadium and stop using it to promote the city, and said he was giving back the ring because it "has lost its meaning and value to me."

His demands effectively pre-empted a drive launched by opponents in Austria who already were gathering signatures on a petition calling for the 15,300-seat arena in Graz, about 120 miles south of Vienna, to be renamed.

The petition drive began last week amid a furor triggered by the execution in California of Stanley Tookie Williams. Capital punishment is illegal in Europe, where many people consider it barbaric. They are now waiting to see how Schwarzenegger deals with the scheduled Jan. 17 execution of a 75-year-old inmate.

"Graz will not have problems in the future with my decisions as governor of California, because officially nothing connects us any more," Schwarzenegger told the daily Kronen Zeitung in an interview for Tuesday's editions.

"The death penalty is law here, and I have to uphold the law of the land and the will of the people," Schwarzenegger was quoted as saying, adding that he still considered himself "Austrian with all my heart."

Nagl told Austrian television he hoped to persuade Schwarzenegger. At a minimum, he said, he hoped to persuade Schwarzenegger to keep the ring - though he conceded he did not expect to succeed.

"Those who know him realize he sticks to his opinions," he said. "The chances are not good. I regret this deeply, but I understand."

Schwarzenegger was born in 1947 in the village of Thal just outside Graz, where he began his bodybuilding career. He emigrated to the United States in 1968 and became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1984, but has retained his Austrian citizenship.

Kurt Flecker, a local official with the opposition Social Democrats, said Schwarzenegger damaged his own image - not Graz's - by refusing to spare Williams' life. There is no point, he said, in "glorifying anyone who supports the death penalty."

Walter Ferk, the deputy mayor of Graz, said Schwarzenegger's decision to allow executions to go forward makes him "an unsuitable godfather for a public building."

But Hermann Schuetzenhoefer, a tourism adviser in the province of Styria where Graz is located, said Tuesday he also wrote a letter to Schwarzenegger expressing regret "that some politicians who proudly bore your name a few years ago are dragging it through the dirt now."

Our man in Havana

Someone should tell him not to burn his bridges!

Mighty_Mouse

and the bible said ............

ah yes!!
The "good book" solves everything!!

Arnie considers himself an american anyways. I doubt he cares.

Now if only he can run for president.................

Victor

Bond-007 wrote:

The bible says "an eye for an eye".

Please treat this as a maximum, not a minimum target to be achieved.

Nox

Bond-007 wrote:

Someone should tell him not to burn his bridges!

Yep. And the "him" you're talking about should be the Graz politico who started the whole mess.

Nox

bonkey

Nox wrote:

Yep. And the "him" you're talking about should be the Graz politico who started the whole mess.

Indeed.

The politicians who "started this mess" took a stand against something they find unacceptable and unreasonable. They wished to show their objection to the death sentence by refusing to continue to honour a man who clearly supports it.

This clearly is an unacceptable situation, and these politicians should definitely be held up to blame.

You don't see American politicans protesting against foreign leaders when they disagree with the methodology used. You'd never see American, for example, threatening to censure a nation for electing the "wrong" officials, or for making the "wrong" political decisions....let alone carry such threats out.

I mean...what will we haer next? LeftyLiberal LIES that American politicans renamed French Fries out of petulance to French political decisions? Or some LoonyLeft tinfoil-hat theory that America sanctioned nations such as Libya for not acting in accordance to its wishes? Or indeed some FICTION that America threatened Austria with sanctions when the Austrians democratically elected some politicians that the Americans didn't like?

The Left is full of such lies and dishonesty, and we should refuse to accept it. Clearly Austrian politicans are wrong to criticise America and America's God-given Ideals as upheld by Governor Schwarzenegger. They probably don't really disagree in the first place, but simply hate Bush and the Republican Party and would do anything to cast mud at it given the slightest provocation. Indeed, I guarantee that had Tookie Williams been Austrian, these self-same politicians would, in fact, be baying for his blood,

Politicans the world over clearly have an unwritten obligation to honour and respect all American political decisions, as this in turn is how America and American politicans treat all political decisions made outside their borders. Anything else is just a Leftist inability to seperate their hatred of the Right frmo how things really worl.

I'd continue this line of reasoning, but my CoulterPill [tm] is wearing off and reality is threatening to intrude. Excuse me while I go rectify this situation.

jc

PHB

Williams founded the "crips" gang and they caused some havoc in the states and people got killed in the events

Way to undersell it.
The Crips gang caused an incredible amount of damage, and he is tacitly responsible for the murder of tens of thousands of people, mostly underprivledged black men, not to mention the countless civilians who have been killed collatorally.

If he was truly sorry, and truly repent, he should be willing to accept his crimes, and accept his punishment.
He is not.

And even if he was, he should be killed anyway, because he deserves to die for what he has done, and i'd happily do it before anyone askes.

sovtek

PHB wrote:

And even if he was, he should be killed anyway, because he deserves to die for what he has done, and i'd happily do it before anyone askes.

"Deserves got nothin' ta do with it."

The case against him was circumstantial and the witnesses were also facing charges and plea bargained. He also brokered a peace with the two rival gangs and spent the rest of his time in jail preaching anti-gang violence.
The is of course without mentioning the social causes that gangs are a result of. Of course killing Williams is going to relieve of any of it.
That's without going into the seriously flawed justice system in America.

Eoin

sovtek wrote:

"Deserves got nothin' ta do with it."

The case against him was circumstantial and the witnesses were also facing charges and plea bargained. He also brokered a peace with the two rival gangs and spent the rest of his time in jail preaching anti-gang violence.
The is of course without mentioning the social causes that gangs are a result of. Of course killing Williams is going to relieve of any of it.
That's without going into the seriously flawed justice system in America.

The governer has to assume that the guilty verdict was appropriate. Their appeals process is the place to overturn that decision, and that obviously failed. He claimed he was innocent of the murder, so was therefore not repentant. As mentioned earlier, clemency would only be granted if the prisoner is repentant - so there is a clear problem.

Personally - as I said in an earlier post - I think that society would have been better served with him alive due to his work of preaching anti gang-warfare, however his refusal - rightly or wrongly - to confess gave the "powers that be" no alternative.

Another thing to keep in mind is that people can talk about all the indirect causes of gangs etc, but he was a direct causing factor, so I don't know if his books were balanced at the end of it all.

Nox

sovtek wrote:

"Deserves got nothin' ta do with it."

The case against him was circumstantial and the witnesses were also facing charges and plea bargained. He also brokered a peace with the two rival gangs and spent the rest of his time in jail preaching anti-gang violence.
The is of course without mentioning the social causes that gangs are a result of. Of course killing Williams is going to relieve of any of it.
That's without going into the seriously flawed justice system in America.

Seems to me that, as I get the Cali news on this coast, Arny spent a lot of time looking at the case both pro and con and found that Tookies conviction was a 'clean kill' (pun intended). So, I find your point to be without merit.

Nox

spooiirt!!

Writing a few books is enough for a murderer and founder of the crips to be pardoned?
On the death penalty: whats the point in keeping a murdering gang leader alive, so he can live off the taxpayers money and still communicate with his fellow gang members from the inside, and organise more crime and death, till he gets old and eventually dies in prison? They should get a few appeals and a few years in case new evidence is found, but after that, they should be executed. First of all they can still cause harm from the inside ( and in the inside), secondly letting them rotfor another 40 years will just use up taxpayers money that could be spent on fighting the origins of crime in Urban areas.

No wait i take it all back, everything the US does is bad. period.

Victor

spooiirt!! wrote:

Writing a few books is enough for a murderer and founder of the crips to be pardoned?

I'm not sure (humanitarian reasons aside), but on balance does one think keeping him alive and letting him continue anti-gang work is better than killing him?

On the death penalty: whats the point in keeping a murdering gang leader alive, so he can live off the taxpayers money

It is cheaper to keep people in prison than execute them. Not only are American prisons remarkably "lean", but they have a very high productivity when it comes to the slave labour bit.

still communicate with his fellow gang members from the inside, and organise more crime and death

But he seems to have broken his gang links and encouraged others to do likewise.

Nox

Victor wrote:

But he seems to have broken his gang links and encouraged others to do likewise.

Wanna buy my used car? You know, the one with low mileage, good tires, and doesn't burn any oil.

Nox

Victor

Nox wrote:

Wanna buy my used car? You know, the one with low mileage, good tires, and doesn't burn any oil.

Um what boards do I moderate and what makes you think I'd be interested in any car?

Nox

Victor wrote:

Um what boards do I moderate and what makes you think I'd be interested in any car?

I forgot that I'm talking to a non-American. This particular phrase is an American idiom which means that if you believe what you wrote (in this case the thug making this miraculous turn around) ... then you'll believe the description I gave of my used car.

Bad analogy on my part. Hope I didn't offend you.

Arny did not stop (nor should he have) Tookie getting put to sleep. Thug should have napped a long time ago. And the bit about co-authoring (probably because he couldn't come up with a cogent sentence) kids books is a joke as a reason to commute a sentence.

Do you moderate other boards or other forums on this board?

Nox

spooiirt!!

Victor wrote:

I'm not sure (humanitarian reasons aside), but on balance does one think keeping him alive and letting him continue anti-gang work is better than killing him?
It is cheaper to keep people in prison than execute them. Not only are American prisons remarkably "lean", but they have a very high productivity when it comes to the slave labour bit.
But he seems to have broken his gang links and encouraged others to do likewise.

How much anti-gang work did he do? How many kids did he influence? How long after his initial imprisonment did he decide to be anti-gang? Did he shank someone or organise assinations on the outside before he became anti-gang? Was what he did enough to make up for the murders he committed?
I dont think keeping a scumbag alive for 40 years is cheaper than one bullet that costs less than a dollar. Granted, the gas chamber is expensive, and inhumane, and i dont see why the US doesnt just shoot them instead. And on the whole slave labour bit, having the prisoners work often puts other businesses out of er.. business . My point is it interferes with the market.


"But he seems to have broken his gang links and encouraged others to do likewise"

Yes he seems to have, but we dont know if he has encouraged others to do so. I dont think there is any way to stop the Tony Sopranos of this world from continuing to organise their er... organisations from the inside. Even in solitary confinement they still get their messages out. Better to just remove them completely.

Eoin

Nox wrote:

I forgot that I'm talking to a non-American

This is an Irish site, so this may happen quite a lot to you. Though I am not too sure why Victor brought up the moderator thing. Could you post a picture of your car?

Anyhow, I believe that he did have a positive influence while in jail, but this is all very irrelevant. The relevant facts are that: he was found guilty of murder and was sentenced to death. He claims innocence. As he was found guilty, and this conviction was upheld, then this is akin to not showing remorse.

Arnie was actually given the easy option, because Williams would not show remorse, and therefore be a candidate for clemency.

Victor

eoin_s wrote:

This is an Irish site, so this may happen quite a lot to you. Though I am not too sure why Victor brought up the moderator thing. Could you post a picture of your car?

My point was the irony of offering a deal on a car to an anti-car person. Maybe we could sell some nuclear weapons to the Greens.

Eoin

Victor wrote:

My point was the irony of offering a deal on a car to an anti-car person. Maybe we could sell some nuclear weapons to the Greens.

Yes, because none of the Greens have any had any interest in non-environment focused companies! Sorry for seriously OT remark