Electrical Manufacturers To Penalise Online Retailers

Freddie59 · 30-11-2005 1:43pm #1

Sky News reported last week that Sony, along with two other as of now unnamed electrical giants, are planning to charge online retailers a higher wholesale price than high street shops in order to force the online price up to that of the shops.

Isn't that akin to charging Supermarkets more so that they would have to charge the same as Corner Shops? Surely this has to be anti-competitive and the EU must forbid it?:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Cabaal · 30-11-2005 2:08pm

Sounds very dodgy to me, properly against some EU law
I'd say the only reason why Sky reported this is because their generally anti-EU
and like to scare people about things as its gets them ratings

JohnC. · 30-11-2005 6:50pm

Cabaal wrote:

Sounds very dodgy to me, properly against some EU law
I'd say the only reason why Sky reported this is because their generally anti-EU
and like to scare people about things as its gets them ratings

How on earth is this in any way anti EU? Surely it would be more pro EU if the EU are to stop companies ripping people off in that manner?

MorningStar · 01-12-2005 9:12am

To be honest there is a clear business sense to this and it is not just strictly a rip off. Basically the bricks and mortar shops get a discount due to floor display and/or space within the store. AS the on-line stores don't have floor space they aren't offered the discount. There is an element of protection of old allies but they are also under threat from the stores themselves threatening not to stock the items if they are sold at discounts to on-line stores.

It is a little more complex than a simple attempt to get people to pay more. It is more a leveling of advantages.

Cabaal · 01-12-2005 9:53am

but their not sold at discount on-line, the items are sold to on-line retailers the same as bricks and morter shops, its just on-line shops have less overheads so they don't add as big a markup so the product is cheaper.

Freddie59 · 01-12-2005 1:30pm

MorningStar wrote:

To be honest there is a clear business sense to this and it is not just strictly a rip off. Basically the bricks and mortar shops get a discount due to floor display and/or space within the store. AS the on-line stores don't have floor space they aren't offered the discount. There is an element of protection of old allies but they are also under threat from the stores themselves threatening not to stock the items if they are sold at discounts to on-line stores.

It is a little more complex than a simple attempt to get people to pay more. It is more a leveling of advantages.

It isn't very complex at all. I wanted to buy a Fuji 128 Mb xd Card (for a digital camera) and it retails locally at €30 (even in Argos and they're usually very cheap). I log onto www.7dayshop.com and get the exact same card for stg£8 (€12 approx). So there's a 150% mark-up in the High Street shop (and that's not even factoring into account that they would get a trade price on that).

I have no problem with anyone having to cover their expenses. Say the Internet price was €12 and the High Street shop was €15 - €20. I would buy in the shop. But this is extortion. Can you only imagine how much we're being ripped off by on the dearer items?:mad: :mad:

masterK · 01-12-2005 1:45pm

The main reason behind Sony's preference for high street retailers is the visibility they provide for their goods. It's a form of publicity in that the goods are visible to the passer by, something which does not happen with online stores.

Guy:Incognito · 02-12-2005 12:05am

Freddie59 wrote:

It isn't very complex at all. I wanted to buy a Fuji 128 Mb xd Card (for a digital camera) and it retails locally at €30 (even in Argos and they're usually very cheap). I log onto www.7dayshop.com and get the exact same card for stg£8 (€12 approx). So there's a 150% mark-up in the High Street shop (and that's not even factoring into account that they would get a trade price on that).

I have no problem with anyone having to cover their expenses. Say the Internet price was €12 and the High Street shop was €15 - €20. I would buy in the shop. But this is extortion. Can you only imagine how much we're being ripped off by on the dearer items?:mad: :mad:

It doesnt work that way. The small accessories are marked up to the hilt because thats where the money is made. It's like way a printer is €60-€70 but the cartridges for it are €50-€60. They make their money on accessories.

MorningStar · 02-12-2005 11:39am

Cabaal wrote:

but their not sold at discount on-line, the items are sold to on-line retailers the same as bricks and morter shops, its just on-line shops have less overheads so they don't add as big a markup so the product is cheaper.

Discounts are given to the on-line stores due to some of their purcashing methods. Simplist form is bulk discount more complex is the fact that some online stores keep very low stock quantities.
The point is they aren't going to charge the online stores more just they will not be able to get the same discount normal stores can. On-line retailers can actually have a higher profit margin and sell cheaper than some store depending on the product.

Freddie59 wrote:

It isn't very complex at all etc...

Your arguement is not great basically all you said was I got it cheaper online:rolleyes:
It doesn't explain or counter what I have siad about invoicing and discounts. On-line stores don't deal with shop lifters on small expensive items which can cause items to be more expensive. If every 7th fash drive was stolen from your store you have to add the cost in for example. What you think are expenses can sometimes be more due to the nature of the item.
Lots of unknown expenses are there.

Freddie59 · 03-12-2005 4:01pm

masterK wrote:

The main reason behind Sony's preference for high street retailers is the visibility they provide for their goods. It's a form of publicity in that the goods are visible to the passer by, something which does not happen with online stores.

Sony have been trading on a name for years. Went into a Sony Centre recently and, for some reason, a Philips 42" Plasma was on display next to a similar Sony. The difference was staggering. The Philips picture quality was excellent, and as for the Sony............well let's just say it didn't cut it. The Philips was €600 cheaper.:rolleyes:

Amazing too that Sony are currently embroiled in a row over their Rootkit CD
(http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights.html) which is an attempt to stop copying on PCs. Yet they actively sell CD-writers for HiFis and burners for home PCs.:eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

I'm sure you'll understand why I don't have much sympathy for Sony (and I have bought a huge amount of Sony Kit down the years). The defence of the High Street (where we have been ripped off for years) doesn't cut it with me. I sincerely hope if the manufacturers try to pull this stroke that the the EU will find it illegal. Actually penalising someone for selling a product cheaper? And someone actually trying to justify it?:eek: :rolleyes: The only problem now (and it can't be stopped) is that consumers, with the advent of the Internet, have discovered that - yes, I have a choice, I can exercise it, and I can save huge amounts on my purchase.

I cannot agree with MorningStar, who is quite obviously involved in the retail trade.:eek: We are entering a whole new era in every facet of life. You either move with it or get left behind.;)

Freddie59 · 03-12-2005 4:08pm

Stekelly wrote:

It doesnt work that way. The small accessories are marked up to the hilt because thats where the money is made. It's like way a printer is €60-€70 but the cartridges for it are €50-€60. They make their money on accessories.

I only quoted that because it was a recent purchase. For bigger purchases it's worse. Two years ago a friend of mine bought a Fuji s5000 Camera from Hong Kong online. It was €750 in Ireland, but, even after paying VAT and Duty, he had it delivered for €465. It also came with a 256 Mb card (which was an extra €170 at the time which would have brought the Irish price to €920).

I rest my case.:)

By the way - I'm not anti-High Street. Argos had a specials day recently where the Digital cameras had 20% off (and coincidentally this brought the price to the exact same as www.pixmania.com, which indicates that online retailers have another 20% discount, or to put it another way, the High Street shops charge 20% more than the online retailers). I bought two cameras in Argos.:p

Slutmonkey57b · 09-12-2005 11:38pm

Arguing about why the high street has higher base costs than the online retailers is pointless. The issue is not

Why are high street shops more expensive?

it is

Why should we be prevented from buying things cheaper?

If you think about it,

Why can't we buy direct from the manufacturer at close to wholesale?

There's thinking for you.

Freddie59 · 10-12-2005 5:20pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Arguing about why the high street has higher base costs than the online retailers is pointless. The issue is not

Why are high street shops more expensive?

it is

Why should we be prevented from buying things cheaper?

If you think about it,

Why can't we buy direct from the manufacturer at close to wholesale?

There's thinking for you.

Now THAT'S called getting to the point!;)

Guy:Incognito · 11-12-2005 1:04am

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Why can't we buy direct from the manufacturer at close to wholesale?

There's thinking for you.

If the manufacturer wanted the hassle of running shops they would, but obviously they don't so they sell to others and slet them sell their stuff for them.

MorningStar · 12-12-2005 1:42pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Why should we be prevented from buying things cheaper?

.

The point is the manufactures get an extra value for supplying the regular shops therfore why would you prevent them from discounting to the people that give this benifit to them?
The story is very slanted the on-line retailsers aren't being charged more they aren't able to get discounts the traditional stores can.
The manufactures are protecting stores and the stores are pushing the manufactueres goods.

Freddie59 · 12-12-2005 4:21pm

MorningStar wrote:

The point is the manufactures get an extra value for supplying the regular shops therfore why would you prevent them from discounting to the people that give this benifit to them?
The story is very slanted the on-line retailsers aren't being charged more they aren't able to get discounts the traditional stores can.
The manufactures are protecting stores and the stores are pushing the manufactueres goods.

Understandably. But does that mean they have the right to restrict consumer's right to choose?

MorningStar · 13-12-2005 8:23am

Freddie59 wrote:

Understandably. But does that mean they have the right to restrict consumer's right to choose?

They aren't restricting anybody just not choosing to deal with business that don't help them but mostly they simply don't allow them certain invoice discounts. This is nothing new at all supermarkets have been doing it for years and a lot more aggressively.

Freddie59 · 13-12-2005 6:47pm

MorningStar wrote:

They aren't restricting anybody just not choosing to deal with business that don't help them but mostly they simply don't allow them certain invoice discounts. This is nothing new at all supermarkets have been doing it for years and a lot more aggressively.

They have indeed. Don't some people call that type of behaviour a cartel?

MorningStar · 14-12-2005 12:19pm

Freddie59 wrote:

They have indeed. Don't some people call that type of behaviour a cartel?

You simply don't know what you are talking about . I don't mean to be rude but you have stated a few things on this thread that just show your lack of knowledge and understanding. Look up cartel and then you will know that this is not a cartel. It may be protectionary. There is no mention of price fixing it is supply based on benift to the supplier and increased sales. If they don't do it the cities and towns will eventually become empty, there is more to life than cheap goods.

Freddie59 · 14-12-2005 1:55pm

MorningStar wrote:

You simply don't know what you are talking about . I don't mean to be rude but you have stated a few things on this thread that just show your lack of knowledge and understanding. Look up cartel and then you will know that this is not a cartel. It may be protectionary. There is no mention of price fixing it is supply based on benift to the supplier and increased sales. If they don't do it the cities and towns will eventually become empty, there is more to life than cheap goods.

Look - I don't like getting personal, but I'll make an exception in your case. Someone doesn't know what they're talkiing about alright and it's you.

1. The basis of free enterprise is just that - free without restrictions. That's what breeds entrepenuers.

2. Cartel/protectionary? What difference does it make? It's still some large groups operating a protectionist system while at the same time trying to subvert those who try to offer a product cheaper - by the way that is called a free market.

3. Do you agree that charging one client more than another (deliberately) in order to in effect fix the price of a product across the board is anti-competitive?

4. Are you saying that in order to keep prices artificially high the long-suffering consumer must again bear the burden while a small amount of High Street retailers benefit? Can you explain exactly to me how that benefits society (or cities and towns as you call them)?

You're very obviously involved in the retail trade and I can genuinely see where you're coming from. But I also have rights - and the right to choose is one of them. Do not come on this forum and proceed to pontificate, while at the same time levelling personal insults, on the basis that it is 'good for society'.

Get with the programme Morning Star.;)

MorningStar · 14-12-2005 3:38pm

Freddie59 wrote:

Look - I don't like getting personal, but I'll make an exception in your case. Someone doesn't know what they're talkiing about alright and it's you.

Freddie59 wrote:

1. The basis of free enterprise is just that - free without restrictions. That's what breeds entrepenuers.

We don't live in that ideal world we live in the EU and every where else is also not a free trade if you think we have restriction free trading on this planet

Freddie59 wrote:

2. Cartel/protectionary? What difference does it make? It's still some large groups operating a protectionist system while at the same time trying to subvert those who try to offer a product cheaper - by the way that is called a free market.

Go find out the difference as you really have no idea. The objective is very differnet as is the method. It is not a cartel and not really protectionary more like paying for a service. It is also not illegal

Freddie59 wrote:

3. Do you agree that charging one client more than another (deliberately) in order to in effect fix the price of a product across the board is anti-competitive?

It happens everywhere for many things. You just don't know about it. I support it becasue it is done for business reasons and actually increases choice. The idea is not to fix the price that is where you keep getting it wrong. Repeatedly saying it doesn't make it true just you wrong repeatedly

Freddie59 wrote:

4. Are you saying that in order to keep prices artificially high the long-suffering consumer must again bear the burden while a small amount of High Street retailers benefit? Can you explain exactly to me how that benefits society (or cities and towns as you call them)?

They aren't keeping prices artificially high and again you saying that doesn't make it so. The only people who won't benifit are the on-line stores. THe high-street stores make sless profit than the on-line stores. If there is no commerece in a town or city it will simply die. When carbon tax comes in you will see that on-line stores won't be competative.

Freddie59 wrote:

You're very obviously involved in the retail trade and I can genuinely see where you're coming from. But I also have rights - and the right to choose is one of them. Do not come on this forum and proceed to pontificate, while at the same time levelling personal insults, on the basis that it is 'good for society'.

Get with the programme Morning Star.;)

I work for the retail trade providing them services both on-line and traditional stores. I know the way profit is made and how buyers work and how deals are stuck. Cheap goods do not mean you benifit in the long run it is a methd used to drive competitors out of the market most times. When there are no CD stores, bakeries, butchers, book shops etc.. you will see what real lack of choice is. I did not insult you I said you didn't know what you are talking about. What you replied with indicates this more as does the fact you don't know what a cartel is. You have a lack of knowledge on this subject you which you are basing your views on. You can keep your views about it all but it doesn't make you right just baddly informed and as you are making no attempt to look into the facts you will just keep thinking it. Fine if you want to go on like this.
If you want to say I am wrong fine prove it.

Freddie59 · 16-12-2005 1:49pm

MorningStar wrote:

Freddie59 wrote:

Look - I don't like getting personal, but I'll make an exception in your case. Someone doesn't know what they're talkiing about alright and it's you.

We don't live in that ideal world we live in the EU and every where else is also not a free trade if you think we have restriction free trading on this planet

Go find out the difference as you really have no idea. The objective is very differnet as is the method. It is not a cartel and not really protectionary more like paying for a service. It is also not illegal

It happens everywhere for many things. You just don't know about it. I support it becasue it is done for business reasons and actually increases choice. The idea is not to fix the price that is where you keep getting it wrong. Repeatedly saying it doesn't make it true just you wrong repeatedly

They aren't keeping prices artificially high and again you saying that doesn't make it so. The only people who won't benifit are the on-line stores. THe high-street stores make sless profit than the on-line stores. If there is no commerece in a town or city it will simply die. When carbon tax comes in you will see that on-line stores won't be competative.

I work for the retail trade providing them services both on-line and traditional stores. I know the way profit is made and how buyers work and how deals are stuck. Cheap goods do not mean you benifit in the long run it is a methd used to drive competitors out of the market most times. When there are no CD stores, bakeries, butchers, book shops etc.. you will see what real lack of choice is. I did not insult you I said you didn't know what you are talking about. What you replied with indicates this more as does the fact you don't know what a cartel is. You have a lack of knowledge on this subject you which you are basing your views on. You can keep your views about it all but it doesn't make you right just baddly informed and as you are making no attempt to look into the facts you will just keep thinking it. Fine if you want to go on like this.

If you want to say I am wrong fine prove it.

Look - you can dress this up any way you want. The original post in this thread merely mentioned that it is not right to penalise a group of retailers for selling cheaper than others. That is still my core argument.

What you are proposing is that prices are kept artificially high in order to keep the status quo. That, in my book, is wrong. We in this country are being ripped off from the time we wake up until we go asleep.

This happens across the entire retail spectrum. You seem to be fixated on the definition of a cartel. Here is one of many web definitions of a cartel:

"Monopolistic associations operating within a single country or across national boundaries. A cartel consists of a number of firms in the same industry which agree among themselves upon the manner in which business will be conducted. Such an agreement may include pricing, production, sale, and the division of markets. Patents may also be shared but denied to non-members."

Doesn't that have a familiar ring to it........:eek:

THERE IS NO ONE SINGLE DEFINITION! And I'm confused?? Get a grip my friend. You are also entitled to your opinions - but if you, and others like you, seek to perpetuate the overcharging of consumers, when cheaper, legal alternate prices for the same products exist then I, and others like me, will continue to highlight it when we can.

Have you no comprehension of the points being made, or are you that blinkered? People want products as cheap as possible. There are companies providing this service legally. If you are the 'I Want It Now' type, and are prepared to pay above the odds then good luck to you. However, please refrain from speaking down your nose at people who are prepared to wait (if needs be) to achieve a bargain.

Freedom of choice cannot, and will not, be stifled - regardless of how much the counter-argument is hyped up.;)

MorningStar · 03-01-2006 10:25am

Freddie59 wrote:

Look - you can dress this up any way you want. The original post in this thread merely mentioned that it is not right to penalise a group of retailers for selling cheaper than others. That is still my core argument.

The point is that is not true! It is an interiptation put upon the facts.

THere is no cartel or evidence of such. You somehow believe they all got together and there is no proof only speculation on the fact that some of the big boys have done this. Only one has and the others said they will consider it. That is not a cartel as only one company has done it!!!! There is speculation that the others might follow it. THat is not opinoin that is fact. They will all do it if there is businbess sense to it.

Choice is not restricted. Nothing you have claimed is actual fact only speculation on what might happen after one report on Skynews. There is lack of simply buiness knowledge in the argument. THis is not opinion but ignorance of facts and ingnorance of the entire market. You can keep the opinion but it lacks credibility and can't be claimed to be a informed view.

Freddie59 · 03-01-2006 8:37pm

MorningStar wrote:

The point is that is not true! It is an interiptation put upon the facts.

THere is no cartel or evidence of such. You somehow believe they all got together and there is no proof only speculation on the fact that some of the big boys have done this. Only one has and the others said they will consider it. That is not a cartel as only one company has done it!!!! There is speculation that the others might follow it. THat is not opinoin that is fact. They will all do it if there is businbess sense to it.

Choice is not restricted. Nothing you have claimed is actual fact only speculation on what might happen after one report on Skynews. There is lack of simply buiness knowledge in the argument. THis is not opinion but ignorance of facts and ingnorance of the entire market. You can keep the opinion but it lacks credibility and can't be claimed to be a informed view.

Morning Star - you cannot change the momentum of the Internet. It is here to stay. It has been proved, over and over again, that Irish consumers are among the most ripped-off in Europe (case in point the recent RTE programme about price fixing among car dealers). You are looking at it through rose-tinted glasses. I appreciate that it is your livelihood (thus your stretching of a very thin point) but I, as a consumer, see it from the other side of the fence.

As I've already said it is both immoral and, in my opinion, illegal to discriminate against one retailer as opposed to another (and by default the consumer). You have already admitted on your previously reply that I am unaware of how 'deals are struck'? Could you possibly elaborate on that and what exactly you mean?

You also mention that quote 'the idea is not to fix the price -- that is where you are getting it wrong' unquote. Well can you explain what charging the online retailers a higher price so that they have to charge the exact same as the online stores actually is. I might not have much business knowledge, but I would hazard a guess that many people would agree that that is not right.:rolleyes:

Back to you, my retail friend....;)

MorningStar · 04-01-2006 9:01am

Freddie59 wrote:

Morning Star - you cannot change the momentum of the Internet. It is here to stay. It has been proved, over and over again, that Irish consumers are among the most ripped-off in Europe (case in point the recent RTE programme about price fixing among car dealers). You are looking at it through rose-tinted glasses. I appreciate that it is your livelihood (thus your stretching of a very thin point) but I, as a consumer, see it from the other side of the fence.

As I've already said it is both immoral and, in my opinion, illegal to discriminate against one retailer as opposed to another (and by default the consumer). You have already admitted on your previously reply that I am unaware of how 'deals are struck'? Could you possibly elaborate on that and what exactly you mean?

You also mention that quote 'the idea is not to fix the price -- that is where you are getting it wrong' unquote. Well can you explain what charging the online retailers a higher price so that they have to charge the exact same as the online stores actually is. I might not have much business knowledge, but I would hazard a guess that many people would agree that that is not right.:rolleyes:

Back to you, my retail friend....;)

You really are not paying attention to what I am saying. First off retail as such is not my livelyhood. I work for a company that provides a service to retailers/wholesaler. THis mean I have a very good knowledge of the retail industry and know how buyers work. What are you basing your "knowledge" of retail practices on?
Rip off Ireland does not exist to the extent people believe. Eddie Hobbes show has ben proven to be not factual on many details and extremely misleading with actual facts. Car dealers are certainly not international companies and this is not isolated to ireland so there is no point bring rip off Ireland at any point
I will keep this really simply so pay attention. THEY ARE NOT CHARGING ON-LINE RETAILERS MORE. THere are discounts they can't avil of because they are unable to provide the benifit to the producers. SO what you beleive is happening is simply not true it was an intreptation of the facts and making up the story of what is happeing. Only one supplier has done it and otheres said they might also do it.
You may get on your moral high horse but once you do that the protection of traditional stores that have existed for up to 100 years deserve to be kept. It isn't discrimination as on-line retial stores can't give a service to the supplier that the trad stores can.
How a buyer gets a deal is pretty simple. The large the quantity you vow to buy means you get a discount. If the supplier has an over supply they drop the price also. Very simple to understand. Now Tesco do things like say to the supplier if we put your product at the end of the isle in the buckets we will sell more so they say to the supplier we will charge you x for placing your product in the bucket. THe supplier agrees, the supplier also has things like retros where the supply say 1000 goods and say if you sell 500 you pay x per item and return the remainder. If the sell 600 they pay x-y per item, the more they sell the bigger y gets.
On-line stores got to the situation where by they don't have their own retail warehouse either and acted more like an agent taking commision with the supplier actually shipping the items. This annoyed retails so the threatened not to buy from certain suppliers so that practice stopped.
So in conclusion the intial belief that suppliers are charging more to on-line stores IS NOT TRUE as the invoice price is the same to both stores. Ultimately it won't matter as other large competing suppliers of maybe less known brands will probably offer better discounts to the on-line stores as they will see a business advantage. Why you would believe the media hype so whole heartely without retail knowledge is really bewildering. Do not confuse reasonable business practices with a plot to rip off one country by an internatioal business cartel of companies that are at each other throat normally. It really is a streach of the little known facts

Freddie59 · 04-01-2006 1:37pm

Firstly, I looked for the link regarding the report. It was on BBC, not Sky and Sony have since firmly denied the claims in the report. But is seems to have opened a can of worms for other companies in the UK. Here is the link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4438298.stm

MorningStar wrote:

Rip off Ireland does not exist to the extent people believe.

I don't think I need reply to that one.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

MorningStar wrote:

Car dealers are certainly not international companies and this is not isolated to ireland so there is no point bring rip off Ireland at any point

I merely presented that programme as an example of how a certain section of consumers (car buyers - the majority of the population) are being exploited by some unscrupulous people.

MorningStar wrote:

I will keep this really simply so pay attention. THEY ARE NOT CHARGING ON-LINE RETAILERS MORE.

So we can take your word for that - 100%:eek:

MorningStar wrote:

You may get on your moral high horse but once you do that the protection of traditional stores that have existed for up to 100 years deserve to be kept. It isn't discrimination as on-line retial stores can't give a service to the supplier that the trad stores can.

I am quite entitled to get on the aforementioned horse. The 'protection' of stores (at the expense of me and others like me - I don't think so - they should be able to stand or fall on their performance). Don't the EU frown upon protectionism?

MorningStar wrote:

How a buyer gets a deal is pretty simple. The large the quantity you vow to buy means you get a discount. On-line stores got to the situation where by they don't have their own retail warehouse either and acted more like an agent taking commision with the supplier actually shipping the items. This annoyed retails so the threatened not to buy from certain suppliers so that practice stopped.

Yes - bulk buying is not a concept that is very hard to understand. This thread is discussing something very different.

MorningStar wrote:

So in conclusion the intial belief that suppliers are charging more to on-line stores IS NOT TRUE as the invoice price is the same to both stores. Ultimately it won't matter as other large competing suppliers of maybe less known brands will probably offer better discounts to the on-line stores as they will see a business advantage. Why you would believe the media hype so whole heartely without retail knowledge is really bewildering. Do not confuse reasonable business practices with a plot to rip off one country by an internatioal business cartel of companies that are at each other throat normally. It really is a streach of the little known facts

What do you class as reasonable business practice:

a) The freedom for consumers to choose

or

b) The manufacturers choosing for the consumer?

Over to you.;)

MorningStar · 04-01-2006 2:12pm

Freddie59 wrote:

Firstly, I looked for the link regarding the report. It was on BBC, not Sky and Sony have since firmly denied the claims in the report. But is seems to have opened a can of worms for other companies in the UK. Here is the link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4438298.stm

Nothing proved just an alligation. A vague claim by people who don't like discounts given to other retailers

Freddie59 wrote:

I don't think I need reply to that one.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Well seeing as you believe any old report about a possible price control by a business I would well believe that you take the Rip Off Ireland tripe and love it. I see the margins on retail goods accross Europe and there is minimal difference other than tax and some traditional things. Beer is cheaper in the off licences now than 10 years ago or even 5. Furniture is cheaper too.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Freddie59 wrote:

I merely presented that programme as an example of how a certain section of consumers (car buyers - the majority of the population) are being exploited by some unscrupulous people.

Focus on the argument instead of taking something else and assuming the same happens everywhere and to every consumer

Freddie59 wrote:

So we can take your word for that - 100%:eek:

Well let see you have no proof other than an accusation and in actual fact it is only the news repoort of an accusation.

Freddie59 wrote:

I am quite entitled to get on the aforementioned horse. The 'protection' of stores (at the expense of me and others like me - I don't think so - they should be able to stand or fall on their performance). Don't the EU frown upon protectionism?

The EU is protectionism what do you think quotas are about? Certain things are vital to a stable society if there were no shops in towns the towns die. The towns and cities are more important than getting

Freddie59 · 04-01-2006 5:20pm

MorningStar wrote:

Nothing proved just an alligation. A vague claim by people who don't like discounts given to other retailers

Well seeing as you believe any old report about a possible price control by a business I would well believe that you take the Rip Off Ireland tripe and love it. I see the margins on retail goods accross Europe and there is minimal difference other than tax and some traditional things. Beer is cheaper in the off licences now than 10 years ago or even 5. Furniture is cheaper too.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Focus on the argument instead of taking something else and assuming the same happens everywhere and to every consumer

Well let see you have no proof other than an accusation and in actual fact it is only the news repoort of an accusation.

The EU is protectionism what do you think quotas are about? Certain things are vital to a stable society if there were no shops in towns the towns die. The towns and cities are more important than getting

Well, this report is from September 1st 2004. Have a read of it Morning Star. I suppose I, and every other like-minded person in Ireland like me, is in denial. We really are not getting ripped off................at all. You are of course, right........I apologise.......!

Case closed: http://www.valueireland.com/media/irish_mirror.htm

I don't think i need add any more, Morning Star. You're right and everyone else is, very obviously wrong.(:eek: ) Doesn't that list make some very, very interesting reading.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

MorningStar · 05-01-2006 9:39am

Freddie59 wrote:

Well, this report is from September 1st 2004. Have a read of it Morning Star. I suppose I, and every other like-minded person in Ireland like me, is in denial. We really are not getting ripped off................at all. You are of course, right........I apologise.......!

Case closed: http://www.valueireland.com/media/irish_mirror.htm

I don't think i need add any more, Morning Star. You're right and everyone else is, very obviously wrong.(:eek: ) Doesn't that list make some very, very interesting reading.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

So you can't prove your point on topic you want to call the whole thing a Rip Off in Ireland?
To clarify that is the Mirror you are quoting which is known to feed popular opinion not investigative journalism. No mention of higher wages and tax so it is not balance. It is also on a website which is actively complaining about value in ireland. Talk of car insurance with out mention of the percentages of accidents on the road and claims payouts is just bias plain and simple. to give you an example " VAT has risen by eight per cent " when did VAT go up? Do you now pay 29% or did you used to get taxed 13% on goods?. Not saying there aren't rip offs just that it is not everything and peolpe have the choice not buy things based on cost of belief. Are you going to stop buying somewhere becasue you don't like their business practices? It is an overblown topic. Comparing america to irish prices is ridiculiouslook at their minmum wage , tax, insurance and economies of scale etc... You want to live in a country where people need to work 3 jobs to survive go live there but don't expect a cheap camcorder here.
I leave that aside as it is off topic. On topic there is no story or evidence other than on-line retailers giving out becasue they can't get discounts becasue they are based on services they can't provide. Sour grapes.

I still don't see how you choice is changed as a result of a speculative problem. You still get to choose.

Freddie59 · 05-01-2006 1:26pm

MorningStar wrote:

It is an overblown topic.

Of course it is. You're dead right. Rip-off Ireland does not exist.:eek:

MorningStar wrote:

Sour grapes.

Yes. We shouldn't be complaining at all. Just hand over the dosh and don't volunteer any opinions or complain.:rolleyes:

frameless59 · 05-01-2006 5:09pm

MorningStar wrote:

So you can't prove your point on topic you want to call the whole thing a Rip Off in Ireland?
To clarify that is the Mirror you are quoting which is known to feed popular opinion not investigative journalism. No mention of higher wages and tax so it is not balance. It is also on a website which is actively complaining about value in ireland. Talk of car insurance with out mention of the percentages of accidents on the road and claims payouts is just bias plain and simple. to give you an example " VAT has risen by eight per cent " when did VAT go up? Do you now pay 29% or did you used to get taxed 13% on goods?. Not saying there aren't rip offs just that it is not everything and peolpe have the choice not buy things based on cost of belief. Are you going to stop buying somewhere becasue you don't like their business practices? It is an overblown topic. Comparing america to irish prices is ridiculiouslook at their minmum wage , tax, insurance and economies of scale etc... You want to live in a country where people need to work 3 jobs to survive go live there but don't expect a cheap camcorder here.
I leave that aside as it is off topic. On topic there is no story or evidence other than on-line retailers giving out becasue they can't get discounts becasue they are based on services they can't provide. Sour grapes.

I still don't see how you choice is changed as a result of a speculative problem. You still get to choose.

All slagging aside I think we'll just have to agree to differ or this could go on forever:o . You don't agree with me - I don't agree with you. Fair enough. But I'll still keep hunting for the bargains;) .

A belated Happy New Year to you and yours. Have a good one.:D

MorningStar · 06-01-2006 9:01am

Freddie59 wrote:

Of course it is. You're dead right. Rip-off Ireland does not exist.:eek:

So VAT did go up 8%?

Freddie59 wrote:

Yes. We shouldn't be complaining at all. Just hand over the dosh and don't volunteer any opinions or complain.:rolleyes:

What people should do is try to understand, know facts and then come to an opinion. To just hand over your money or just complain are equally stupid in my eyes. If you want to refuse to actually understand how the world works and rant and rave becasue somebody tells you it is a rip off good for you. Opinion is worth nothing if it has no basis on fact.

You keep saying they restrict choice for example yet that means nothing as there is no explanation and you still get to choose where to spend your money. It is just a vacant statement

You want to belive what you want that is fine but don't expect somebody to belive it just becasue you keep saying it.

Ardent · 06-01-2006 10:52am

Freddie59 wrote:

Sony have been trading on a name for years. Went into a Sony Centre recently and, for some reason, a Philips 42" Plasma was on display next to a similar Sony. The difference was staggering. The Philips picture quality was excellent, and as for the Sony............well let's just say it didn't cut it. The Philips was €600 cheaper.:rolleyes:

Amen brother.

I used to buy a lot of Sony products too but I've wised up after some bad experiences. I'm the proud owner of a two year old 32" Philips widescreen and I have yet to see a Sony equivalent to come even close to it. You said it, they've been trading on a name for years now and their products don't justify the prices.

This news doesn't bother me - I don't buy Sony.

Freddie59 · 06-01-2006 1:19pm

MorningStar wrote:

So VAT did go up 8%?
You want to belive what you want that is fine but don't expect somebody to belive it just becasue you keep saying it.

You just don't know when to quit do you?:rolleyes:

OK - hands up!! They were wrong on the VAT!:o Crime of the Century!:D

I see you've conveniently omitted commenting on these:

TOBACCO products sold here are 84 per cent higher than the EU average

ALCOHOL is 82 per cent more costly than the EU average

TEA and coffee are on average 46 per cent more expensive than the rest of Europe

VEGETABLES are 43 per cent above the average price in the EU

Indeed for every Eur1.40 an Irish shopper is forced to shell out their Spanish and German counterparts only have to part with 80 cent.

Irish consumers now pay Eur49 more for their weekly groceries than their European neighbours.

And Irelands credit card rates (16.7 per cent on average) are now almost 40 per cent higher than any other country in Europe.

In particular, there are massive price differences in the car insurance market and this reporter. posing as a 28-year-old provisional driver saved Eur747 by shopping around.

And I haven't even touched on new car prices, VRT, health care charges, electricty prices. and gas prices.:eek:

Now, Morning Star, in fairness you have slated me for even suggesting that there is any hint of a rip-off in this country. I don't think that discussing the situation can even come close to being described as a rant. Or would you prefer that it was swept under the carpet and ignored? To say that you are behaving in a very insular fashion is putting it mildly. Happy New Year once again!:D

MorningStar · 06-01-2006 2:44pm

Freddie59 wrote:

Now, Morning Star, in fairness you have slated me for even suggesting that there is any hint of a rip-off in this country. I don't think that discussing the situation can even come close to being described as a rant. Or would you prefer that it was swept under the carpet and ignored? To say that you are behaving in a very insular fashion is putting it mildly. Happy New Year once again!:D

WHat you seem to have a problem with is understanding that high costs of a good does not make it a rip off and high prices on somethings does not make everything a rip off.
The article is bias in it's entirety.

A pint of beer in bar in France is higher than here. So rip off France. Alcohol under certain cicumstance can be said to be either cheaper or more expensive depending on the bias.

People get more compensation in this country than any other European country so our insurance is more expensive. THat is business. You want cheaper insurance than people get lss money campaign for that instead of complaining about high insurance.

Tobaco is more expensive in the UK. It has a penalty tax to discourage use and is a luxury good.

Petrol is cheaper here than the UK too so are you going to go on about that?

The minimum hourly rate here is one of the highest in Europe.

Insurance here is more expensive than most

Property prices and new companies mean that while historical business have low rent or no rent new companies own no property in the market so pay higher rents. Higher rents higher outgoings mean more expensive.

Goods get more expensive when everybody can afford them. A basic rule of economics. You want cheaper good go to Itally where the only way of getting a job is through a friend.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_cap

WE have more money

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/tax_tot_tax_wed_sin_wor

They pay more tax on their income

Before you cry "stealth tax" learn the meaning. It refers to a tax on one thing used for another. For example speeding fine money paid used to fund childcare.

Payment for use such as toll, bin charges, vrt etc... are not double or stealth tax. THey are a charge or tax for use nothing more or less.

if your goods are cheap it doesn't matter if you are unable to pay for them becasue you haven't got a job.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lab_une

I slated your understanding of why and how goods are more expensive depending on how you look at. I don't know how old you are or if you spent much time out of this country but let me say I remeber the poverty in this country and I have seen it else where. We are a rich country and able to take care of ourselves and those less fortunate than others. It sickens me to hear people moan about how they have to pay an extra on luxuries so somebody can have a decent wage and then compare it to a country where the minimum wage is less than 50% ours. Do you actually want somebody to live in poverty so you get a cheap camcorder?
Why do you think people from these countries where everything is so cheap come to live here? It is becasue they can get a job! You don't have to buy expensive goods shop around.
You have complete control over how you live you life and spend you money . You want to spend you time beliveing secont rate journalism without question that is your choice. You want to get cheaper goods regardless of the true cost good for you. You want to tell me how it so in a bias form you are out of luck as it appears I know a hell of a lot more on the subject and put more thought into it. I may not have quoted prices but you can check it out. Somethings are cheaper here some or not how that is a rip off in a low tax economy you must explain.

frameless59 · 06-01-2006 5:59pm

MorningStar wrote:

WHat you seem to have a problem with is understanding that high costs of a good does not make it a rip off and high prices on somethings does not make everything a rip off.
The article is bias in it's entirety..

You're entitled to YOUR opinion.:D

MorningStar wrote:

A pint of beer in bar in France is higher than here. So rip off France. Alcohol under certain cicumstance can be said to be either cheaper or more expensive depending on the bias...

I never said that rip-off didn't exist in other countries.....so you're warming to the idea....:o And a bottle of Bacardi is €30 here....it's €10 in Spain.:p

MorningStar wrote:

People get more compensation in this country than any other European country so our insurance is more expensive. THat is business. You want cheaper insurance than people get lss money campaign for that instead of complaining about high insurance.

Probably was the case. Now, with the PIAB the Insurers themselves agree that claims have fallen substantially. Of course it hasn't been reflected in the premiums.;) A young driver in Germany is insured at a low rate initially. If he messes up he is loaded. Here it's a case of you're guilty until proven innocent. NOTHING can justify the exorbitant insurance costs. My house insurance is twice the price of my car insurance. It used to be the reverse.:rolleyes:

MorningStar wrote:

Tobaco is more expensive in the UK. It has a penalty tax to discourage use and is a luxury good.

And way cheaper everywhere else in the EU....you wouldn't be cherrypicking now....would you. Oops....I forgot.....I don't understand what that is!:eek:

MorningStar wrote:

Petrol is cheaper here than the UK too so are you going to go on about that?.

Swings and roundabouts!;)

MorningStar wrote:

The minimum hourly rate here is one of the highest in Europe.

MAGNIFICENT! People were underpaid here for far too long!:mad:

MorningStar wrote:

Property prices and new companies mean that while historical business have low rent or no rent new companies own no property in the market so pay higher rents. Higher rents higher outgoings mean more expensive.

Of course it does.........NOT!!!:p

MorningStar wrote:

Goods get more expensive when everybody can afford them. A basic rule of economics. You want cheaper good go to Itally where the only way of getting a job is through a friend.

Italy is probably the most corrupt Country in Europe. Well done MS.......very good example.:rolleyes:

MorningStar wrote:

Before you cry "stealth tax" learn the meaning. It refers to a tax on one thing used for another. For example speeding fine money paid used to fund childcare.

Well done. Is that why the ROAD TAX FUND goes to fund everything......apart from road infrastructure? Rip-off Ireland at it's very best!!

MorningStar wrote:

Payment for use such as toll, bin charges, vrt etc... are not double or stealth tax. THey are a charge or tax for use nothing more or less.

They are Rates by the back door. Generally accepted by people of all political persuasions.:)

MorningStar wrote:

I slated your understanding of why and how goods are more expensive depending on how you look at. I don't know how old you are or if you spent much time out of this country but let me say I remeber the poverty in this country and I have seen it else where.

Don't quote me about poverty and hard times my friend. I paid a mortgage with an interest rate of 16%.

MorningStar wrote:

We are a rich country and able to take care of ourselves and those less fortunate than others. It sickens me to hear people moan about how they have to pay an extra on luxuries so somebody can have a decent wage and then compare it to a country where the minimum wage is less than 50% ours. Do you actually want somebody to live in poverty so you get a cheap camcorder?

Actually I'm sure you mean that a small lucky few in this country are rich. Certainly not me! But I forgot - that's where your loyalties appear to lie.:o

MorningStar wrote:

Why do you think people from these countries where everything is so cheap come to live here? It is becasue they can get a job! You don't have to buy expensive goods shop around.

Ehh....where exactly? Price apair of Levis Jeans or, say, a Philips widescreen TV. Price doesn't vary. Practically the same in all outlets. Go to Airside Retail Park and visit the local electrical stores. You'll be hard pushed to find a variance in price for the exact same item.;)

MorningStar wrote:

You have complete control over how you live you life and spend you money . You want to spend you time beliveing secont rate journalism without question that is your choice. You want to get cheaper goods regardless of the true cost good for you.

I just want cheaper goods at a fair price.....like the rest of the country.

MorningStar wrote:

You want to tell me how it so in a bias form you are out of luck as it appears I know a hell of a lot more on the subject and put more thought into it. I may not have quoted prices but you can check it out. Somethings are cheaper here some or not how that is a rip off in a low tax economy you must explain.

Ah you're probably right. There's no rip-offs in this country.....and the moon landings were fake.......the Americans didn't detonate an a-bomb......and Ireland qualified for the 2006 World Cup.:eek:

Happy New Year again!:D

Rodo · 07-01-2006 12:03am

To be honest there is a clear business sense to this and it is not just strictly a rip off. Basically the bricks and mortar shops get a discount due to floor display and/or space within the store. AS the on-line stores don't have floor space they aren't offered the discount. There is an element of protection of old allies but they are also under threat from the stores themselves threatening not to stock the items if they are sold at discounts to on-line stores.
It is a little more complex than a simple attempt to get people to pay more. It is more a leveling of advantages.

You may get on your moral high horse but once you do that the protection of traditional stores that have existed for up to 100 years deserve to be kept.
I’m sure Dunne’s, Tesco, etc had that in carved in granite as it ruined businesses, and probably a lot of family run businesses that had existed for what ? Perhaps 100 years. 
I’m also sure that the prominent IRISH business (not to be mentioned) had it in mind when they lulled their suppliers in a false sense of security by giving them large orders, leaving the supplier no option but to drop their other business and then telling them after they did so that if they didn’t drop their prices they would pull the plug. Businesses went bankrupt over this practice. But that’s BUSINESS

The big fish suddenly found that around the reef, they are bigger fish. i.e., The large bricks and mortar, who demolished the ‘little’ bricks and mortar now they are finding out with the realization of the internet what may be, or not be monopolistic. And they don’t like the newer bigger cheaper fish.

But they’ll have to live with it. A shame but that’s BUSINESS.
Some will embrace the new technology, and thrive, some won’t. That’s BUSINESS

Why couldn’t the online stores avail of a ‘discount’?
Admittedly they won’t be able to put the supplier’s product in a prominent place like the top, or end of an aisle, but why not at a prominent place where every visitor to the site would see?
Online suppliers who would have large traffic and turnover surely get some sort of discount??

Have your product on the end of an aisle where 300 people might pass by it a day, or have your product visible on a prominent site that has 3000 people visiting it a day.

The same way companies may, or may not apply the ABC principle of Purchasing.
The option is there if you want to use it.
As for cartels, monopolies, etc, they are all over the place. You may like to think that they are not, but they are.

I worked in Purchasing, and Distribution for over a decade, and saw it.

As for the statement that the subject matter of this makes clear business sense.
It does to the people who are now looking over their shoulder at new technology bringing new business rivals, and cheaper prices.

To be honest Morning Star’s first post comes across like a bad commerce class?
Clear business sense. Where???? I suppose it is if you’re concerned that the businesses or industries you supply are under threat from buying online.

Not a rip-off? Of course it’s a rip-off if online companies are being penalized for being able to supply the product cheaper.

There is an element of protection of old allies. Let me see if I can sum up that statement in one word. CARTEL ?????

They are all over the place, From the price fixing Supermarkets, etc right down to the guys who sell on stalls, or the guys who do Wedding videos,
Personally I’d be very surprised if the opening post of this topic is true. That Sony started all this. When all is said and done, they should not really be concerned. If anything they’re production has probably risen. And more than likely their marketing director is now signing on if he can’t grasp the potential of ecommerce.

Of course business will suffer, but will they drop their prices
Answer: NO
Their managers won’t want to downgrade themselves from a Merc to an Audi.

It can appear complex if you want to make it look complex.

Leveling advantages, a nice turn on words but still stinks of Cartel !!!

I’m sure people reading any topic on boards.ie have had to change their occupation because of progress, they didn’t like it but had to get on with it. Now this principle applies to business’s. You either mount the wave of progress or get sucked under and drown.
Leveling advantages ? That’s like a defender who hacked the legs from under a forward saying that he did it because the forward was too fast. And from your statement you’re the referee saying.
No foul, play on. !!!!

MorningStar · 08-01-2006 3:59pm

.

MorningStar · 08-01-2006 4:07pm

frameless59 wrote:

You're entitled to YOUR opinion.

Somethings are fact and not a matter of opinion

frameless59 wrote:

I never said that rip-off didn't exist in other countries.....so you're warming to the idea....:o And a bottle of Bacardi is €30 here....it's €10 in Spain.:p

I never said things weren't a rip off I just don't make blanket statements about an entire economy and social structure. In Spain people are paid less and they don't have the same problem with alcohol this country has.What portion of the average wage is Bacardi is more accurate way to look at it.

frameless59 wrote:

Probably was the case. Now, with the PIAB the Insurers themselves agree that claims have fallen substantially. Of course it hasn't been reflected in the premiums. A young driver in Germany is insured at a low rate initially. If he messes up he is loaded. Here it's a case of you're guilty until proven innocent. NOTHING can justify the exorbitant insurance costs. My house insurance is twice the price of my car insurance. It used to be the reverse.:rolleyes:

Ireland now has the largest back log of unresolved insurance claims in its history. That means there is a huge liability outstanding. An untrained driver is allowed on the roads here that is not the case in most other European countries. You can fail your test here and drive home! Those two things justify it alone and there are other factors too.

frameless59 wrote:

And way cheaper everywhere else in the EU....you wouldn't be cherrypicking now....would you. Oops....I forgot.....I don't understand what that is!:eek:

Swings and roundabouts!

We aren't even in the top 3 of the most expensive tabacco in Europe so you are simply wrong!The point is you are cherry picking what to complain about. Swings and roundabouts is the whole point plus the fact we have high employment, low direct tax and high wages.

frameless59 wrote:

MAGNIFICENT! People were underpaid here for far too long!

So you want people to get paid a fair wage and get cheap goods?????
Name a country that that occurs in!

frameless59 wrote:

Of course it does.........NOT!!!

Two makets one place the rent is 10 times that of the other. According to you it makes financial sense to charge the same price? Grafton Street is one of the most expensives streets in Europe to lease property on.

frameless59 wrote:

Italy is probably the most corrupt Country in Europe. Well done MS.......very good example.:rolleyes:

Seeing as you want to cherry pick prices negatively I am just pointing out that things come together. High employment and high wages means high prices. I picked italy because I was just there. :cool:My spanish friends are here because of the free FAS courses and employment. They think it is worth coming here but don't understand why Irish people are so lazy in buying prepared food like washed carrots and lunch instead of doing it.

frameless59 wrote:

Well done. Is that why the ROAD TAX FUND goes to fund everything......apart from road infrastructure? Rip-off Ireland at it's very best!!

NOBODY in this country pays road tax. It is motor tax! Reduce your engine you pay less tax. Motor tax probably doesn't cover all the elements that they cause. It's not for the roads and that is where people get it wrong

frameless59 wrote:

They are Rates by the back door. Generally accepted by people of all political persuasions.:)

No it is not rates pay by use. Saying doesn't make it so. The Greens want to increase direct cost with carbon tax etc.. so again you make a false statement through choice or ignorance of the subject.

frameless59 wrote:

Don't quote me about poverty and hard times my friend. I paid a mortgage with an interest rate of 16%.

Cry me a river I paid 19%. My Brother and sister don't live here because they couldn't get jobs after college so Ithink people are better off.

frameless59 wrote:

Actually I'm sure you mean that a small lucky few in this country are rich. Certainly not me! But I forgot - that's where your loyalties appear to lie.:o

No I say what I mean. Sorry what country do you live in? I live in one where mass emigration happened due to lack of jobs was the norm and it no longer is. In fact people came back and now people want to come here. My loyalty lies in people not my pocket.

frameless59 wrote:

Ehh....where exactly? Price apair of Levis Jeans or, say, a Philips widescreen TV. Price doesn't vary. Practically the same in all outlets. Go to Airside Retail Park and visit the local electrical stores. You'll be hard pushed to find a variance in price for the exact same item.;)

Levis vary by 10-15% depending on where you buy and TVs vary by about 5% for the same model. Why would I go to one location to shop around? That is not shopping around in my eyes. If two stores reduce their prices to be as competative as possible the prices could be the same so it proves nothing. Before you claim cheaper in another country consider tax,shipping, labour costs, insurance, currency conversions etc... The bigger goods actually cost a lot to get to Ireland and normally come through the english market. It can actually be cheaper to import yourself due to normal business costs.

frameless59 wrote:

I just want cheaper goods at a fair price.....like the rest of the country.

You are dictating what is fair based on lack of knowledge. If a company makes the same profit on items sold in this country compared to another and it still costs more is that not fair?

QUOTE=frameless59]
Ah you're probably right. There's no rip-offs in this country.....and the moon landings were fake.......the Americans didn't detonate an a-bomb......and Ireland qualified for the 2006 World Cup.:eek:

Happy New Year again!:D[/QUOTE]

Again I never claimed things aren't a rip off here just not everything. You are being fed a media line and accepting it. Is it making you happy or actively irritating you? It's like people who drive their kids to school for "safety" yet there is more risk because they are in the car than if they walked.

An example of an Irish rip off is the charge for a half pint. In my local it 55c, that means if the bar man was getting paid €11 an hour it would have to take an extra 3 minutes of their time to pour a half. A pint of cordial on the other hand is just expensive and you don't have to buy it.

I must also note that you are either also Freddie or you just like to talk as if you are

QUOTE=Rodo]
Leveling advantages, a nice turn on words but still stinks of Cartel !!![/QUOTE]
Well lets be clear. Nobody has proved anything and the people complaining are the on-line stores. If you can only buy Coke in the cinema and not Pepsi to you scream cartel? When you walk into a shop and they don't carry all brands do you scream cartel? This is at worst what will happen, on-line retailers will stock different brands and allow smaller manufacturers a place to sell goods. This will actually stimulate competition. :eek:
The reason web ads for goods don't work as well as placement in stores is people like to touch things. People normally look at the actual items and buy on-line the retailers know this and so do the suppliers. If you want to talk unfair there it is. A new business practice has come in and if it works other suppliers will do it. No orgainsed discount for an entire industry but supplier and store based with variances. You might think it sounds like an economics class but you haven't learnt what is and is not a cartel so keep studying:D

Freddie59 · 09-01-2006 9:52am

MorningStar wrote:

I never said things weren't a rip off

This from your good self earlier in this discussion:
"Rip off Ireland does not exist to the extent people believe":D

MorningStar wrote:

Ireland now has the largest back log of unresolved insurance claims in its history. That means there is a huge liability outstanding. An untrained driver is allowed on the roads here that is not the case in most other European countries. You can fail your test here and drive home! Those two things justify it alone and there are other factors too.

It's incredible to see someone actually trying to justify Insurance costs in this country at present. €400 in Germany for a 20 year-old male.....€4,000 in Ireland. Case closed.;)

MorningStar wrote:

We aren't even in the top 3 of the most expensive tabacco in Europe so you are simply wrong!The point is you are cherry picking what to complain about. Swings and roundabouts is the whole point plus the fact we have high employment, low direct tax and high wages..

Yes - and we are now the second-most (or is the most) expensive country to live in. A house that was €48,000 in 1994 now costs €250,000 approximately. Now, by my calculations that's a five-fold increase. Did wages go up by 500% in the interim? Mine (and lots of other's) most certainly did not. Maybe yours did.

MorningStar wrote:

So you want people to get paid a fair wage and get cheap goods????? Name a country that that occurs in!

America.

MorningStar wrote:

Two makets one place the rent is 10 times that of the other. According to you it makes financial sense to charge the same price? Grafton Street is one of the most expensives streets in Europe to lease property on.

That's the retailers choice.

MorningStar wrote:

Seeing as you want to cherry pick prices negatively I am just pointing out that things come together. High employment and high wages means high prices..

So we are to be punished with exorbitant prices because we're earning a few bob more.....which in turn erodes any increase we've received.....which sets the wages back in real terms to the mid-nineties.....so we pay 21st Century prices at mid-1990s rates?:eek:

MorningStar wrote:

I picked italy because I was just there. :cool:My spanish friends are here because of the free FAS courses and employment. They think it is worth coming here but don't understand why Irish people are so lazy in buying prepared food like washed carrots and lunch instead of doing it.

Ah - I was waiting for it. The good old 'knock you own' comment. The one thing you cannot say about Irish workers or people is that they are lazy. I would demand that you immediately retract that. For generations we have been recognised as one of the most hard-working races on the planet.
You mention that your relations had to move abroad for jobs (very obviously hard working, honest people). Are they the exception or do you tar them with the same brush?

MorningStar wrote:

NOBODY in this country pays road tax. It is motor tax! Reduce your engine you pay less tax. Motor tax probably doesn't cover all the elements that they cause. It's not for the roads and that is where people get it wrong.

Wrong again I'm afraid! Like all things in this country we 'borrowed' the idea from our colonial neighbours, who introduced a 'Road Tax Fund' to fund.....you guessed it.....road building and maintenance.
Have a look at what s sample of the Irish people think:
http://www.rte.ie/comments/roadtolls.html

But, seeing as you've already voiced support for VRT, etc, it probably won't hold much sway with you.:rolleyes:

MorningStar wrote:

No it is not rates pay by use. Saying doesn't make it so. The Greens want to increase direct cost with carbon tax etc.. so again you make a false statement through choice or ignorance of the subject.

Where do you get off with 'saying doesn't make it so'?:o If something exists it does! These are not pay by use. In a family home all of the aforementioned are used, week in, week out. They're a fact of life. And we're being charged RATES:mad: to utilise them.

MorningStar wrote:

Cry me a river I paid 19%. My Brother and sister don't live here because they couldn't get jobs after college so Ithink people are better off.

So did I. I merely quoted the 16% because you would probably have said that 'saying doesn't make it so'

MorningStar wrote:

No I say what I mean. Sorry what country do you live in? I live in one where mass emigration happened due to lack of jobs was the norm and it no longer is. In fact people came back and now people want to come here. My loyalty lies in people not my pocket.

I presume you were out protesting against Irish Ferries then? Yesw people want to come here. Like the 500 who have usurped the positions at Irish Ferries. Now Morning Star.....where would your loyalties lie there?

MorningStar wrote:

Levis vary by 10-15% depending on where you buy and TVs vary by about 5% for the same model. Why would I go to one location to shop around? That is not shopping around in my eyes. If two stores reduce their prices to be as competative as possible the prices could be the same so it proves nothing. Before you claim cheaper in another country consider tax,shipping, labour costs, insurance, currency conversions etc... The bigger goods actually cost a lot to get to Ireland and normally come through the english market. It can actually be cheaper to import yourself due to normal business costs.

Yes of course they do.:rolleyes: Is that why a certain chain group is charging 33% more for their products in Ireland than in the UK. Are you telling me that 33% of the price quoted goes in transport costs? Now think before you reply. I have a very good friend involved in Road Haulage.

MorningStar wrote:

You are dictating what is fair based on lack of knowledge. If a company makes the same profit on items sold in this country compared to another and it still costs more is that not fair?.

Would be if it were true......but it isn't. Fair is:

Being paid a fair day's wages for a fair day's work.

Wealth being shared across the community - not enjoyed by a privileged few.

Charging a fair price for a product.

Paying fair taxes and expecting a fair service in return.

Not deploying so-called steath taxes.

[/QUOTE]=frameless59]
Ah you're probably right. There's no rip-offs in this country.....and the moon landings were fake.......the Americans didn't detonate an a-bomb......and Ireland qualified for the 2006 World Cup.:eek:

Happy New Year again!:D[/QUOTE]

MorningStar wrote:

Again I never claimed things aren't a rip off here just not everything. You are being fed a media line and accepting it. Is it making you happy or actively irritating you? It's like people who drive their kids to school for "safety" yet there is more risk because they are in the car than if they walked.

An example of an Irish rip off is the charge for a half pint. In my local it 55c, that means if the bar man was getting paid €11 an hour it would have to take an extra 3 minutes of their time to pour a half. A pint of cordial on the other hand is just expensive and you don't have to buy it.

I must also note that you are either also Freddie or you just like to talk as if you are

Of course you didn't claim things aren't a rip-off here:rolleyes: . Again you are guilty of generalising, and, if anyone is falling for a media line it's you!:p
All of my children walked to and from school, and I would LOVE to know where your local is. 55c FOR A HALF-PINT. WOW! Rip-off Ireland doesn't exist where you are. No wonder you try to defend it. Why would I pretend to be someone else?

Rodo wrote:

Leveling advantages, a nice turn on words but still stinks of Cartel

Ah - someone else who appreciates what's going on!:D

I see Morning Star has not commented on the reef and the bigger fish. Very interesting!

MorningStar · 09-01-2006 1:40pm

Freddie59 wrote:

This from your good self earlier in this discussion:
"Rip off Ireland does not exist to the extent people believe":D

Are you unable to understand English or just choosing to? Some things are a rip off but not everything is what I said and keep saying.

Freddie59 wrote:

It's incredible to see someone actually trying to justify Insurance costs in this country at present. €400 in Germany for a 20 year-old male.....€4,000 in Ireland. Case closed.;)

So your form of debate is to just say it is a rip off. You can't explain how a bussiness can operate with higher costs and charge the same money. German safety record is better. I don't have to justify anything it is a fact of how they work out rates.

Freddie59 wrote:

Yes - and we are now the second-most (or is the most) expensive copuntry to live in. A house that was €48,000 in 1994 now costs €250,000 approximately. Now, by my calculations that's a five-fold increase. Did wages go up by 500% in the intereim. Mine (and lots of other's) most certainly did not.

We have the highest home ownership in the world so something must be OK.
http://www.nationmaster.com/pie-T/peo_hom_own
A social shift and economic catch up are not a rip off but an enivitability.
Why don't you admit when you are wrong! You claimed that we have the most expensive tabacco in Europe but it isn't true.

Freddie59 wrote:

America.

What? THat is not true, the poverty gap is massive in the US.

Freddie59 wrote:

That's the retailers choice.

Your right but you complain when they charge more so it is your choice not to buy. You therfore have nothing to complain about.

Freddie59 wrote:

So we are to be punished with exorbitant prices because we're earning a few bob more.....which in turn erodes any increase we've received.....which sets the wages back in real terms to the mid-nineties.....so we pay 21st Century prices at mid-1990s rates?:eek:

Not punished just regular supply and demand. THe point is more people are now able to afford things.

Freddie59 wrote:

Ah - I was waiting for it. The good old 'knock you own' comment. The one thing you cannot say about Irish workers or people is that they are lazy. I would demand that you immediately retract that. For generations we have been recognised as one of the most hard-working races on the planet.
You mention that your relations had to move abroad for jobs (very obviously hard working, honest people). Are they the exception or do you tar them with the same brush?

Actually I see you as the person putting the country down not me. You a are the one complaining about prices, government inaction etc... Irish workers are called lazy by people now with people prefering to hire hard working imigrants. I didn't say anything I said my friends can't believe how lazy people are acting. Imigrants to most countries are seen as hard working Irish people being no amazing exception one way or the other. You want to have false pride in that knock yourself out.

Freddie59 wrote:

Wrong again I'm afraid! Like all things in this country we 'borrowed' the idea from our colonial neighbours, who introduced a 'Road Tax Fund' to fund.....you guessed it.....road building and maintenance.
Have a look at what s sample of the Irish people think:
http://www.rte.ie/comments/roadtolls.html

What people think and what is a reality don't meet a lot of the time. Media hype. Watch "Bowling for Columbian" a clear example shown between media reports and perception yet no connection to reality. THere is no road tax in this country, the origins of the tax mean little to what it has become and its current role. So I am not wrong here and you have never proved me wrong yet while I have proved you wrong and you just avoid it. If you can point out where I am wrong I will accept it. So give it a go and also admit when you are wrong

Freddie59 wrote:

Where do you get off with 'saying doesn't make it so'?:o If something exists it does! These are not pay by use. In a family home all of the aforementioned are used, week in, week out. They're a fact of life. And we're being charged RATES:mad: to utilise them.

If something exists and you call it the wrong name then it doesn't make it so. Example you see a dog and call it a giraffe you are wrong and saying you saw giraffe doesn't make it any more true. People use heating on a daily basis but they pay by use why is it so hard to understand you can reduce use of services. Waste now costs more than before as the true cost of the service was not understood.

Freddie59 wrote:

So did I. I merely quoted the 16% because you would probably have said that 'saying doesn't make it so'

Now that I don't believe

Freddie59 wrote:

I presume you were out protesting against Irish Ferries then? Yesw people want to come here. Like the 500 who have usurped the positions at Irish Ferries. Now Morning Star.....where would your loyalties lie there?

The company was run into the ground by bad management and poor investement. The matter comes down to what was right to keep a vital service going. Irish law needs to be changed to prevent further issues and bring back the situation. Complex problems require complex solutions

Freddie59 wrote:

Yes of course they do.:rolleyes: Is that why a certain chain group is charging 33% more for their products in Ireland than in the UK. Are you telling me that 33% of the price quoted goes in transport costs? Now think before you reply. I have a very good friend involved in Road Haulage.

What I said was there are many factors of additional cost here you are just avoiding the subject and again cherry picking what you are able to discuss. I work withe actual costs of logistic and costs which is a lot more indepth than knowing a person involved with one aspect of cost. All cost factors added together effect price. THey have been mentioned.

Freddie59 wrote:

Would be if it were true......but it isn't. Fair is:

OK how do you know it is not? Explain what you are basing it on, so far all you have done is claim you are being ripped off and dismiss any contributing factor. That sounds like ignorance to me in both meanings of the word.

Freddie59 wrote:

Being paid a fair day's wages for a fair day's work.

Wealth being shared across the community - not enjoyed by a privileged few.

Charging a fair price for a product.

Paying fair taxes and expecting a fair service in return.

Not deploying so-called steath taxes.

So you are socialist? Do you buy fair trade tea, coffe, chocolate etc...?
You want cheap goods and fair wages does that mean you avoid goods made in China. We simply export our poverty that way.

AS I said you are deciding "fair" and you are basing it on nothing or at least not stating what you are basing it on. Maybe you are just unable to answer the question beacuse you don't understand.

Freddie59 wrote:

Of course you didn't claim things aren't a rip-off here:rolleyes: . Again you are guilty of generalising, and, if anyone is falling for a media line it's you!:p
All of my children walked to and from school, and I would LOVE to know where your local is. 55c FOR A HALF-PINT. WOW! Rip-off Ireland doesn't exist where you are. No wonder you try to defend it. Why would I pretend to be someone else?

Point out where I generalised and then compare it to saying an entire country is a rip off! I have maintained you should asses the facts and come to an opinion nothing more or less. There have been untrue statements made based on opinion without facts and that was not by me. What media line do you believe I have fallen for? I have stated the one I believe you have fallen for

Amazing wit I was talking of the charge for a half pint not the cost. To be absolutly clear it is a further charge per half of 55c

I don't know why anybody would pretend to be somebody else either but as I said you appear to be talking as if you are also Freddie all you had to say was why or that you don't think so.

Freddie59 wrote:

Ah - someone else who appreciates what's going on!:D

1000 idiots agreeing doesn't mean anything to me. Knowledge of the subject is more important than if somebody else agrees. I know and see profit margins accross europe along with costs. The profit margins in general are the same. If you know different explain, if is just a belief than state it is a belief and what it is based on outwerwise you are just ranting

If you want to put down this country because you don't like paying a fair wage , paying your way, taking care of others and accepting economic realities why live here? According to you life is better else where why not go there? I travel a lot and I have seen the reality of low taxes, low employment and general things that mean cheap goods. In the US when you go in a carpark they might have a person issuing tickets and the reason is becasue it is cheaper than a machine. Such ticket collectors work more than one job to survive due to the wages. I was in Philadelphia last year and I noticed street cleaners were on each corner with just a brush and pan all day cleaning. They didn't have powered machines like here because it is cheaper to hire 4 people than buy the machine. So you want a cheap camcorder that is how it is done you don't pay a good wage. The US is not a good model but Norway is as it is more inclusive.

Freddie59 · 09-01-2006 5:36pm

MorningStar wrote:

Are you unable to understand English or just choosing to? Some things are a rip off but not everything is what I said and keep saying.

No - it's called debating the issue. You are quite apparently unable to accept when someone produces a good counter-argument or even dares to disagree with you. I think it's called keeping your head in the sand.

MorningStar wrote:

So your form of debate is to just say it is a rip off. You can't explain how a bussiness can operate with higher costs and charge the same money. German safety record is better. I don't have to justify anything it is a fact of how they work out rates.

Nooooooo.:rolleyes: My form of debate is to highlight the rip-offs that occur. Your form is to deny that they actually exist (as you have proven).

MorningStar wrote:

We have the highest home ownership in the world so something must be OK.
http://www.nationmaster.com/pie-T/peo_hom_own
A social shift and economic catch up are not a rip off but an enivitability.
Why don't you admit when you are wrong! You claimed that we have the most expensive tabacco in Europe but it isn't true.

No - the website I quoted did. PAY ATTENTION NOW.:D

MorningStar wrote:

your right but you complain when they charge more so it is your choice not to buy. You therfore have nothing to complain about.

So you want me just to ignore the inflated prices and forget about it (or just put the blinkers on and pretend it doesn't exist).:rolleyes:

MorningStar wrote:

Not punished just regular supply and demand. THe point is more people are now able to afford things.

Ah right. So in future we'll just call it suppy and demand Ireland. Or I'm being supplied and demanded off.:) Glad you explained that one.

MorningStar wrote:

Actually I see you as the person putting the country down not me. You a are the one complaining about prices, government inaction etc... Irish workers are called lazy by people now with people prefering to hire hard working imigrants.

I didn't say anything I said my friends can't believe how lazy people are acting. Imigrants to most countries are seen as hard working Irish people being no amazing exception one way or the other. You want to have false pride in that knock yourself out.

Putting the country down and highlighting exorbitant charges and two completely separate issues my friend. Of course you didn't say anything. Your friends did. Why did you quote them then? Guilty by association.

MorningStar wrote:

What people think and what is a reality don't meet a lot of the time. Media hype. Watch "Bowling for Columbian" a clear example shown between media reports and perception yet no connection to reality. THere is no road tax in this country, the origins of the tax mean little to what it has become and its current role. So I am not wrong here and you have never proved me wrong yet while I have proved you wrong and you just avoid it. If you can point out where I am wrong I will accept it. So give it a go and also admit when you are wrong.

You must be getting desparate when you're quoting a movie. Didn't you accuse me of swallowing the media line?:eek:

MorningStar wrote:

If something exists and you call it the wrong name then it doesn't make it so. Example you see a dog and call it a giraffe you are wrong and saying you saw giraffe doesn't make it any more true. People use heating on a daily basis but they pay by use why is it so hard to understand you can reduce use of services. Waste now costs more than before as the true cost of the service was not understood.

Explain that to the thousands of people who are paying higher gas and electric bills. It might have escaped your attention, but these items are NECESSITIES (look it up;) ). The same as the family car which is now a necessity, or the creche which modern married couples are paying upwards of €1,000 in some cases to have their child minded. And why? Because both of them will have to work to pay a huge mortgage which one wage could not support. Yes - modern Ireland really is a great value for money country to live in.

MorningStar wrote:

The company was run into the ground by bad management and poor investement. The matter comes down to what was right to keep a vital service going. Irish law needs to be changed to prevent further issues and bring back the situation. Complex problems require complex solutions.

Again defending the indefensible. Were any of the management positions made redundant? Indeed, did the management team (which you have admitted ran the company into the ground) take the same pay cut as that which the workers were being asked to take? Well?:mad: Must be fairly complex now for the hundreds who lost their jobs.

MorningStar wrote:

What I said was there are many factors of additional cost here you are just avoiding the subject and again cherry picking what you are able to discuss. I work withe actual costs of logistic and costs which is a lot more indepth than knowing a person involved with one aspect of cost. All cost factors added together effect price. THey have been mentioned.

Well can you explain how a very small item sold by a company with stores in Ireland and the UK can be 33% dearer?

MorningStar wrote:

OK how do you know it is not? Explain what you are basing it on, so far all you have done is claim you are being ripped off and dismiss any contributing factor. That sounds like ignorance to me in both meanings of the word.

Fair enough. So I and the thousands like me and ignorant? For daring to voice an opinion and even to SUGGEST that we are being ripped off. As I have already said you are behaving in a most insular and blinkered manner.

MorningStar wrote:

So you are socialist?

Far from it. As I have said forming and voicing an opinion doesn't make a person a socialist. But I'd rather be one than a die-hard capitalist.;)

MorningStar wrote:

AS I said you are deciding "fair" and you are basing it on nothing or at least not stating what you are basing it on. Maybe you are just unable to answer the question beacuse you don't understand.

The only thing I understand is that everytime I get a wage increase or increased tax allowance, products and services almost immediately rise and obliterate any increases. Is it that hard for you to understand? For all your spoofing on economics you seem unable to appreciate how a family budget works. Or the impacts of the policies that you espouse upon it.

You have, on your posts,

Dismissed even the remote possibility of a rip-off Ireland.

Defended VRT

Defended Refuse Charges

Defended massively higher motor insurance costs (in relation to the rest of Europe).

Tried to prove that essentials such as heating are a type of item which you can choose to use or not. Theoretically you're right - but realistically you're totally wrong.:o

As I have already said Morning Star you refuse to acknowledge what's going on around you. A huge majority of the population agree with much of what I have said. You CAN keep your head in the sand and pretend it's not going on....but it is.

Try convincing the young couple paying a huge mortgage, paying huge childcare fees, paying grossly increased health costs (if you're not on a medical card or company scheme a doctor's surgery visit is now running at €70 in some places).

Imagine attending yourself and bringing a sick child with you - €140? That would make a fair hole in any household budget. Then try convincing the people with TWO children that they are getting great value for money.:eek:

I don't think you'd get many takers. You can throw all the insults you like about being ignorant, but I would appear to have more of a realistic grip on life than you will ever have.;) And by the way.......I did pay 19%.....and was paying £60 of a take home pay of £110 on a mortgage. So I do know what I'm talking about........unlike some others.:rolleyes:

parsi · 09-01-2006 7:44pm

MorningStar wrote:

THEY ARE NOT CHARGING ON-LINE RETAILERS MORE. THere are discounts they can't avil of because they are unable to provide the benifit to the producers.

I'm loath to get into this argument between two people who obviously have greater depth of knowledge in this matter.

But...

If I buy a car and I get a discount of 1000 for cash and my buddy buys the same car at the same dealer but only gets 850 discount for cash does that mean that he is not being charged more because he can't avail of the full discount ? Surely at the end of the day its what you pay is what counts so if Mr Sony charges downtown JoesTV 800 for a tv but discounts him 100 because he has a bricks'n'mortar shop and charges Joes.com 800 with no discount then Joes.com is effectively being charged more..

then again I'm not in retail so I'm not privvy to its arcane world..

MorningStar · 10-01-2006 7:08am

Freddie59 wrote:

No - it's called debating the issue. You are quite apparently unable to accept when someone produces a good counter-argument or even dares to disagree with you. I think it's called keeping your head in the sand.

Actually you haven't debated the issue. You refuse any information that counters your view. You prove no evidence only further opinion. These don't make a good counter argument.
You keep saying I refuse to believe in a rip off Ireland yet what I keep saying is not everything is to the extent certain people believe. You being an example of a person who just quotes prices and will not accept any of the additional costs in this country. You simply refuse to except any or explain who or how the extra cost gets paid. That is keeping your head in the sand.
I doubt this view will keep you happy but if being angry does it for you great enjoy life. The world will keep turning and reality will carry on

Parsi wrote:

Surely at the end of the day its what you pay is what counts so if Mr Sony charges downtown JoesTV 800 for a tv but discounts him 100 because he has a bricks'n'mortar shop and charges Joes.com 800 with no discount then Joes.com is effectively being charged more..

The point is if Downtownjoe sells mr sony advertisment worth the discount rather than an actual discount and online joe doen't have anyway to advertise as successfully you aren't charging more.

The other main point is nothing has been proved and the people compllaining are the on-line stores. The whole industry is not conspiring therefore it is not even close to a cartel as people claim.

Rodo · 10-01-2006 7:50pm

MorningStar wrote:

I work for the retail trade providing them services both on-line and traditional stores. I know the way profit is made and how buyers work and how deals are stuck. Cheap goods do not mean you benifit in the long run it is a methd used to drive competitors out of the market most times. When there are no CD stores, bakeries, butchers, book shops etc.. you will see what real lack of choice is. I did not insult you I said you didn't know what you are talking about. What you replied with indicates this more as does the fact you don't know what a cartel is. You have a lack of knowledge on this subject you which you are basing your views on. You can keep your views about it all but it doesn't make you right just baddly informed and as you are making no attempt to look into the facts you will just keep thinking it. Fine if you want to go on like this.
If you want to say I am wrong fine prove it.

If the likes of bookshops are to be worried, they should venture into ecommerce (would they then have two discounts from the supplier ???

As for me walking down Barronstrand Street here in Waterford dodging the tumbleweed, and looking at the boarded up, bakeries, butchers, premises as you mentioned above and my variety of choice gone. I assure you MorningStar, we’re pretty safe

Online purchasing has to be tangible, electronic goods, DVDs CDs books, etc.

We are not talking about CHEAPER goods here, we are talking a product in Ireland € X, and the same product online € Y.
We could talk about the dreaded c*****s here forever.
The news report that started this thread was speculative Did they, Didn't They? We'll never know, and if they did, we'll just have to look harder to find it cheaper

However I do think that your statement 'My Loyalties lies on people not my pocket’ is very noble, and I am not being sarcastic, I mean that, honestly.
That statement can be the complete opposite by rearranging it.
My Loyalties lie in my pocket not on people.

This is why we have manufacturers calling the shots.
Whether you're on Planet Earth, Or Planet MorningStar, both arguments are true here.
The astonishing thing is that you who service these businesses choose to ignore that's its happening.

If however, let’s say they do decide to ‘not make certain discounts available’ to the online stores!!!!
Manufacturers penalising ecommerce businesses because they want to sell their goods!!!! i.e., refuse business?????
MMMMMmmmmm, good business sense A+

Good Night

MorningStar · 11-01-2006 8:56am

.

MorningStar · 11-01-2006 9:03am

Rodo wrote:

If the likes of bookshops are to be worried, they should venture into ecommerce (would they then have two discounts from the supplier ???
As for me walking down Barronstrand Street here in Waterford dodging the tumbleweed, and looking at the boarded up, bakeries, butchers, premises as you mentioned above and my variety of choice gone. I assure you MorningStar, we’re pretty safe

I can assure you that you are not safe. I live in Dublin and we are further along the retail changes than the rest of the country. Purpose built shops in housing estates are gone and are not even being built now. We had gone on a little from just on-line stores and the "rip off Ireland" card was pulled. Tesco, Lidl, Aldi, Dunnes etc... are trying to destroy all competition. THey do this through price. THis country is littered with empty shops in towns.

Rodo wrote:

Online purchasing has to be tangible, electronic goods, DVDs CDs books, etc.

We are not talking about CHEAPER goods here, we are talking a product in Ireland € X, and the same product online € Y.
We could talk about the dreaded c*****s here forever.
The news report that started this thread was speculative Did they, Didn't They? We'll never know, and if they did, we'll just have to look harder to find it cheaper

We will know as they will investigate and discounts etc.. are all well documented. Big companies can afford to keep two books.

Rodo wrote:

This is why we have manufacturers calling the shots.
Whether you're on Planet Earth, Or Planet MorningStar, both arguments are true here.
The astonishing thing is that you who service these businesses choose to ignore that's its happening.

THe point is I know what is happening and people commenting on it don't. Media reports are extremely bias on this subject and this is what most people base thier views on. AS I pointed out with the newspapaer article. Eddie Hobbes claimed a massive outcry from a town got a Lidl to a town yet the 3000 people he claimed turned out to be less than 300. He claimed corner stores are now all big business when about 80% are franchises. If people believe these things I see why they don't believe me but when they ignore even the pricnciple and any information showing a differing view. I don't choose to ignore anything is happening, some things are a rip off but they always have been it isn't really anything new. Everything is not a rip off and more importantly it is simply more expensive to set-up and do busness here.

To say an accontant only adds and subtracts is true but it is also not the right description in fact it would be wrong to say that is all he does. If people chose to bring everything down to simple terms you don't get some amazing insight you get a simple view. Things are more complex than it is cheaper in Spain therefore we should get it for that price too.

Rodo wrote:

If however, let’s say they do decide to ‘not make certain discounts available’ to the online stores!!!!
Manufacturers penalising ecommerce businesses because they want to sell their goods!!!! i.e., refuse business?????
MMMMMmmmmm, good business sense A+

I obviously can't explain this in a simple enough way for people to understand. Last go, If you spend A on advertisement to get a certain level of sales through all forms (online and bricks and morter)
You offer you product @ X to Online and Bricks
Online sells at X+Storage+profit
Bricks sell at X+Storage+rent+insurance+theft+profit
Online is therfore cheaper
Bricks realises that space in his store is equvialant to advertisement A. Bricks notes he has extra expenses yet both he and online benifit. Infact people look at the product and in his store and by from Online.
Bricks gets mad and says he wants cheaper goods. Manufacturer realises that if product not in Bricks he won't get sales through Online also he pay Bricks A but to make it easy he agrees exact terms of prodcut space and place and makes A a discount.
Magic! Not a cartel not some conspiracy to make people pay more just business. I already explained what will most likely happen as a result of overly protectionary practice and how it will most likely mean more competition not less. The manufacturors weren't really driving the change it was the stores and the ones complaining are the other stores.

Freddie59 · 11-01-2006 2:04pm

Rodo wrote:

If the likes of bookshops are to be worried, they should venture into ecommerce (would they then have two discounts from the supplier ???
As for me walking down Barronstrand Street here in Waterford dodging the tumbleweed, and looking at the boarded up, bakeries, butchers, premises as you mentioned above and my variety of choice gone. I assure you MorningStar, we’re pretty safe
Online purchasing has to be tangible, electronic goods, DVDs CDs books, etc.

We are not talking about CHEAPER goods here, we are talking a product in Ireland € X, and the same product online € Y.
We could talk about the dreaded c*****s here forever.
The news report that started this thread was speculative Did they, Didn't They? We'll never know, and if they did, we'll just have to look harder to find it cheaper

However I do think that your statement 'My Loyalties lies on people not my pocket’ is very noble, and I am not being sarcastic, I mean that, honestly.
That statement can be the complete opposite by rearranging it.
My Loyalties lie in my pocket not on people.

This is why we have manufacturers calling the shots.
Whether you're on Planet Earth, Or Planet MorningStar, both arguments are true here.
The astonishing thing is that you who service these businesses choose to ignore that's its happening.

If however, let’s say they do decide to ‘not make certain discounts available’ to the online stores!!!!
Manufacturers penalising ecommerce businesses because they want to sell their goods!!!! i.e., refuse business?????
MMMMMmmmmm, good business sense A+

Good Night

Well said Rodo. You see, the root problem here is that MS thinks that everyone else posting on this thread has limited or no intelligence (I think the phrase was 1,000 idiots).

Amazingly, four out of the last five people who have posted disagree with MS.

These would be the same idiots who keep the country turning over on a daily basis.

These would also be the same idiots who are far more streetwise (could substitute economicswise) than their parents were.

These would be the same idiots who can

a) Spot when they're being ripped off (whenever it occurs)

and

b) Are actually technically skilled and wise enough to use all tools at their disposal (High Street or Internet) to spot a bargain.;)

These would be the same idiots who are able to articulate themselves in a manner only dreamed of by their parents.

And these are also the same idiots who won't sit back and take it!:p

Yes, being an idiot can have it's advantages!:eek:

Yes - see what you mean about the tumbleweed.:o Very good point!

As Rodo said.......Goodnight!:D

Freddie59 · 11-01-2006 2:04pm

MorningStar wrote:

.

Is that part of an Internet address?

MorningStar · 11-01-2006 3:17pm

Freddie59 wrote:

Well said Rodo. You see, the root problem here is that MS thinks that everyone else posting on this thread has limited or no intelligence (I think the phrase was 1,000 idiots).

Amazingly, four out of the last five people who have posted disagree with MS.

Well I never called anybody an idiot. Just because people agree with you doesn't make you right! If you think it it does then you are mistaken but I am sure you could get people to agree with you saying it does make you right.

If people refuse point blank to accept any arguement the contradicts their views and opinions I don't generally think of them as intelligent or reasonable.

I have accepted that certain things are a rip off other just claim all is. Any plausable reason for possible higher prices in this country are not explained away just simple denied or ignored. False statements about prices in this country were made yet instead of admitting the falshood it was just ignored.

I accept some prices in Ireland are more expensse wihout need (to call it a rip off initself is emotive)
I accept business costs in this country are more than elsewhere in Europe.

If you choose not to believe the last point than you are burying your head plain and simple. If you choose not to believe me personally that is fine but prove how they are the same then not for me but to yourself. I know they are not the same are you saying so how you KNOW they are the same or you just think they are.

To not understand how online stores have less costs must indicate a learning problem. It is not opinion but fact to say it isn't is just plain stupid. THe whole point of on-line stores is that the costs are less so they can sell cheaper just like a traditional catalogue shop.

I get disliking the the new practice worked out by retailers. TO call it a cartel or anything else indicates a lack of knowledge. Inteligence is the application of knowledge. i actept some people didn't know how or why the practice came about. I explained it more than once. If you don't accept it that doesn't make you right but just not willing to actually think about the issue.

If you want to have an opinion based on no fact, refuse any other facts I don't see how that indicates intelligence. Can you explain how it does?

I tried to explain the issue you don't have to believe me you can choose to believe Eddie Hobbes or newspapers without questioning. I like to question details especially when I find incorrect details in them.

Rodo · 11-01-2006 8:04pm

Morning Star, I'd be grateful if you could explain the X/Y discount principle please to this

Sony Centre A
Location: Anywhere In Ireland
Business premises size: 3000 sqft
Product: 42'' LCD TV
Price: €2500

Sony Centre B
Location: Anywhere In Ireland
Business premises size: 6000 sqft
Product: 42'' LCD TV
Price: €2500

Sony Centre B
Location: Anywhere In Ireland
Business premises size: 10000 sqft
Product: 42'' LCD TV
Price: €2500

Electrical Manufacturers To Penalise Online Retailers

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