religion in irish schools

iceworm

do you think it is correct and justified for religion to be on the curriculum in schools and indeed in a lot of cases on the junior certificate. i, who is sitting the exam this june think it is a complete travisty of justice and if anything should be choice subject at very least .

Rev Hellfire

Normally I would disagree with your statement, but you've convinced me with your well presented argument. That junior certificate English classes are been forced aside in preference for religion classes is painfully evident from your post. I agree its not on.

But slagging aside, religion is one class a week from what I remember and not even an exam subject. To my mind gaining an understanding of one main influential forces in society is a worthy pursuit in itself. And that’s to not even include the moral benefits such a pursuit may bring (depending on your particular view of religious beliefs)

Manach

It has been a long while since my last religious class in school, so I'd be curious to know what exactly is taught in the current curriculum?
A more broad based multi-faith approach or a more theoretical approach.

bus77

Well, my religion class was fairly good in sec-school because the teacher was dead sound. He was an ex-priest and used to go into all sorts of stuff.

Brought up masturbation one day and said he did'nt look at porno when he was younger but used his imagination instead.

The thing about the class was unusual topics sprang up from time to time.
Looking back on it now, I would gladly sacrifice many of the other class's for that one.

It really depends on the teacher. imo.

iceworm wrote:

do you think it is correct and justified for religion to be on the curriculum in schools and indeed in a lot of cases on the junior certificate.

Is it really on the junior certificate in some schools? That's ridiculous alright.

Edit: Just had a look at the outline of the new Syllabus, looks fairly good http://www.galwayeducationcentre.ie/pdf/overview.pdf

Excelsior

Religion definitely doesn't mean brainwashing in Irish schools. At primary school level I am very familiar with the Catholic Alive-O curriculum and it is as broad and inclusive as it could be while maintaining its Catholic identity.

At secondary school it is almost a mix between anthropology and civics. They are excellent classes if handled correctly by the teacher and they are designed not so that one view would have dominance but rather that by discussing these fundamental questions of life, the kids might learn how to argue and converse in a productive manner. A visit to any thread on any one of these boards will show you how important it is.

As a Christian, I do not intend to out-source the development of my children's faith to the Department of Education and they are not trying to do that. They are rather trying to develop mature, capable and informed citizens.

Travesty of justice and such terms might cut it when surrounded by 15 year olds but it is sadly put into severe focus when you look at the many aspects of our society that are actually unjust and not just inconvienient to an individual.

Talliesin

An educated person knows about religion.

SeanW

In my view, religion classes go up there with compulsory Irish language class, in terms of being timewasting hangovers from the past.

Uthur

Religious studies would be a good idea if they didn't promote any particular
faith. We should be aiming to create a secular society so all faiths can
be equal. When I was in school back in the early 90s the only religion
discussed was catholicism/christianity.

layke

When I had religion class in school we were not taught to follow a specific religion or anything like that. It was more tolerance and understanding of christianity and other religions such as the muslim beliefs. Although i'm not a religious person myself I believe it's an important thing for anyone growing up.

The world is diverse and the more understanding we have of each other the better off we are.

UU

I'm in 6th Year in school and I actually enjoy religion class! I'm in a community school though, which is multi-denominational, so there is very little Catholic ethos. On a Monday, a guest speaker is invited in to talk to us about a certain topic - my favourite was the man who came to talk to us about cults as it was very interesting. On the Thursday, our religion teacher actually teaches us Philosophy! It is soooo interesting!

During the Junior Cert., we were taught Christianity, Judaism, some Islam and Buddhism but mainly Morality. My school does have a Chaplain who is Catholic but she is very nice, understands and tolerates people's different beliefs. For those who wish not to do religion they can go to the study hall instead. Mainly Muslims in my school don't do religion but I think it would do them good if they did as they would learn to understand and tolerate other faiths more which most of them there are quite poor at. At least people are given an option which is denied in most denominational Secondary schools.

iceworm

i go to a community school and they say that all religions are equal but they split up the classes into catholics and the other religions i think this is unfair because if we supposed to be on the same teaching then why arent we in the same class? this is my main problem but also the book is completely biased towards the catholic faith. i have no problem being thought about other religions but saying we are equal and the forcing ppl to come to the christmas service (catholic mass) and the end of year service has many cchristian prayers also (the christmas service is in a church as opposed to a neutral place) i think is totally hypocritical.
we are forced to take part in the religion classes un like uu whos school seems a lot more fair.
also my teacher is a complete idiot(no offence she is a pretty nice person) who cant teach and also teaches me science. she makes no sense@@yes in turms of no'' is one of them

robindch

> i go to a community school and they say that all religions are
> equal but they split up the classes [...] the book is completely
> biased towards the catholic faith.

You'll find this kind of thing wherever you'll find religion -- there's always a big difference between what people say and what they actually do. Just keep your eyes and ears open and make your own conclusions.

Excelsior

robindch wrote:

You'll find this kind of thing wherever you'll find religion -- there's always a big difference between what people say and what they actually do.

You'll find this kind of thing wherever you'll find people -- there's always a big difference between what people say and what they actually do.

robindch

> You'll find this kind of thing wherever you'll find people

Indeed. It's almost as if there were no deity there to guide the actions of his servents

UU

I believe that all non-private schools should be multi-denominational, not just community schools and VECs which are supposed to be. Come on, I know fellas who are in secondary schools run by Christian brothers and most of them detest religion completely, especially Catholic, as it is forced upon them and some of them get involved in freaky cults and Scientology.

If the government could remove the Church from school affairs that would be great! Sort of like in USA where all the state schools facilitate for all and if you want to go to a denominational school there are private Christian, Hebrew, Arabic ,etc. schools available.

I think that we should still learn about religion,philosophy and ethics in school as it is extremely important in today's world but just not biased toward any faith. Likewise for primary schools, as my friend went to one but he had no religion so when the rest of the class were learning about their Communion and Confirmation, he had to sit at the back of the room reading, and he went to a Gaelscoil which aren't run by the clergy!

The government will have to change the owning of most education institutes in the future due to the increase of the Irish secular society.

Excelsior

I think of all the models in the world that Ireland could follow, America would be the worst. Believers are disregarded quite ridiculously and this gives fuel to the monster that is the Christian Conservative Right Wing Lobby.

Every other country in the world has a left leaning evangelical and Catholic Church. In America, because of the reinterpretation of the wall that seperates church influence and state to mean a complete privatisation of faith forced by the government, the Christians have been moved progressively to the right. And that is a bad place to be.

Cronus333

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Normally I would disagree with your statement, but you've convinced me with your well presented argument. That junior certificate English classes are been forced aside in preference for religion classes is painfully evident from your post. I agree its not on.

But slagging aside, religion is one class a week from what I remember and not even an exam subject. To my mind gaining an understanding of one main influential forces in society is a worthy pursuit in itself. And that’s to not even include the moral benefits such a pursuit may bring (depending on your particular view of religious beliefs)

In my school it's taught 3 times a week and although it's not an exam subject here it would be if the course 'aknowledged theultimate truth of Christianity'. shudder....

UU

Excelsior wrote:

I think of all the models in the world that Ireland could follow, America would be the worst. Believers are disregarded quite ridiculously and this gives fuel to the monster that is the Christian Conservative Right Wing Lobby.

Every other country in the world has a left leaning evangelical and Catholic Church. In America, because of the reinterpretation of the wall that separates church influence and state to mean a complete privatisation of faith forced by the government, the Christians have been moved progressively to the right. And that is a bad place to be.

I should of realised that all state schools in America are non-denominational rather than multi-denominational and that is no good. Couldn't all state schools be multi-denominational over here? Instead of not learning about religion, all religions could be taught with no superior one so that there is equality for people from all faiths who can learn about each others' faith to reduce sectarianism. America is a bad example but I couldn't have used France as that would be just as bad!

I just hate the Catholic ethos in school even though my school is rather "multi-denominational", there is still some. For example, we have an oratory with a chaplain(female) and at the graduation ceremonies there is Christian prayers. At Ash Wednesday, we are all taken out of class to get dirt rubbed on your forehead which I refuse! I don't mind learning about faiths but religious practices should be left for outside of school.

If the government ever made all state schools multi-denominational there'd be uproar. Catholic parents would be giving out because their sons and daughters can no longer make Communion and Confirmation in school. Protestants (Anglicans) have to go to special classes in church to make theirs! Jewish males have to go outside of school to make their Bar-Mitzah and females, Bat-Mitzvahs. I don't believe in giving Catholics special treatment in school as school should be for everyone.

robindch

> Instead of not learning about religion, all religions could be taught
> with no superior one so that there is equality for people from all
> faiths who can learn about each others' faith to reduce sectarianism.

The "Educate Together" schools movement in Ireland does this -- and seems to get pretty good results too, to judge by the hoardes queueing up to get in.

Though, frankly, it looks like it'll be another 50 years before schools like that get a lookin in Belfast, where enforced segregation during childhood is necessary to keep the home fires burning.

> religious practices should be left for outside of school.

Indeed, but believe me, it's way, way better now than it was -- the religious mess which Frank Mc Court documents in Angela's Ashes is not far from what I remember myself in Kerry in the 70's, and if anybody's got an hour to spare, The Rocky Road to Dublin made in 1967, and now available on DVD from Laser in Ranelagh, does show a brief glimpse into the dreary classrooms of forty years ago and what people had to go through

UU

Yes, I've read about those "Let's Educate Together" schools in the newspaper. The school took the students on visits to synagogues, mosques, churches, Buddhist temples, etc. The young girl who went to it said "I enjoyed the mosque the most because I could take my shoes off in it!" (Lol, I wish my school would do trips like that!) Most Gaelscoileanna now are non-denominational except perhaps Scoil Brìde in Ranelagh and other Church-owned ones. There are very few priests and nuns teaching in schools any more. When I first went to school in 1992, there were none in mine. Although, the RC Church still owns a vast majority of primary and secondary schools, most new schools being established are "Lets Educate Together" and Community Schools as Ireland is now becoming a far more multi-cultural society.

robindch

> Most Gaelscoileanna now are non-denominational except perhaps
> Scoil Brìde in Ranelagh and other Church-owned ones.

Do you have any stats on these? I remember speaking to a local guy about a place near Tully in Connemara where the kids were marched into church three times per day in between Irish classes. Ick!

> most new schools being established are "Lets Educate Together"
> and Community Schools as Ireland is now becoming a far more
> multi-cultural society.

And good on 'em, I say. The best mate of my 11yo niece is a muslim. Wouldn't have happened in my day!

UU

Sorry Robindch, I don't have any statistics. I said it in an article in today's Irish Times and when studying the social area of Home Economics, it says "Gael scoileanna differ from most Irish primary Irish schools in that they are not controlled by any church or parish and in that they teach all subjects through Irish. A group of parents can set up a Gael Scoil but will have to fund the cost of a site and the local contribution. A Gael Scoil must satisfy Department regulations regarding teacher qualifications, suitability of premises, etc." Although there are exceptions of Gael scoileanna being controlled by the Church.

Excelsior

There is a reason why the Church owns the vast majority of the schools in Ireland (and the other 3 main churches own the vast majority of what is left over) and that is that they paid for them.

The Church, as has been discussed, has no monopoly on education in this country. A group of concerned fundamentalist Christian parents could set up a school that taught a curriculum with influence drawn from the writings of Boards.ie member JC. A different group could set up a school with a focus on artistic expression. So the way for the Church's role in education to be minimised is not through some rights-violation like a forced buy-out but by concerned local people coming together and developing a local response.

As a passionate Christian, I would have concerns about sending my kids to a school with a religious ethos. Not because I am frightened of unfair bias, like UU or the original poster, but ineffective and irritating bias. I don't think that Roman Catholic Church control of schools is helping them at all because they are so scared to respectfully and lovingly stand up for who they are that "Religion Class" becomes Religions Class instead of time to reflect on the rich and profound spiritual journey that a Catholic life well-lived should be.

What I am saying is that belief in Jesus is the major characteristic of me and my wife's life and I don't think I want to out-source it to some hapless 28 year old Primary school teacher who is going to teach that being a good person is what Christianity is all about.

When the alternative is an Educate Together environment where my (potential) kids would mix with many different cultures and world views and learn to not be scared or insecure about their own, I think the choice is fairly easy.

iceworm

well i had my very multi-denominational catholic christmas service today in a catholic church. no choice for people of a diferent religion or what ever.

You have to put up with hypocites i guess. until your old enough to get your opinion across without being put on detention and shouted at.

ArthurDent

Excelsior wrote:

What I am saying is that belief in Jesus is the major characteristic of me and my wife's life and I don't think I want to out-source it to some hapless 28 year old Primary school teacher who is going to teach that being a good person is what Christianity is all about.

When the alternative is an Educate Together environment where my (potential) kids would mix with many different cultures and world views and learn to not be scared or insecure about their own, I think the choice is fairly easy.

As a commited parent in an ET school, i think you are absolutley right Excelsior - many of the children are in our school because of their parents not wanting them to go to a Catholic school - a pretty negative view in my opinion - there are also many parents that believe very deeply in their own faith (be it Catholicism, Islam etc) who have no problem with their children receiving information on different faith systems but who believe that the responsibility of passing on religious doctrine is not a role for teachers, but rather parents and priests, pastors, rabbis etc......

As an ex-catholic who now practices a different faith I find it hugely beneficial that my children are going to a school where they mix with children from Muslim, Christian, Agnostic, Humanist etc backgrounds and are aware that there are differences in beliefs and these are to be respected.

ArthurDent

iceworm wrote:

well i had my very multi-denominational catholic christmas service today in a catholic church. no choice for people of a diferent religion or what ever.

You have to put up with hypocites i guess. until your old enough to get your opinion across without being put on detention and shouted at.

Iceworm, if you are in a Catholic School with a Catholic ethos - what do you expect? If it is a catholic school - how is ot hypocritical to be celebrating a catholic festival? If its a multidenominational school maybe you should have a word with your student council or your BOM if you feel very strongly about this.

BrianCalgary

"What I am saying is that belief in Jesus is the major characteristic of me and my wife's life and I don't think I want to out-source it to some hapless 28 year old Primary school teacher who is going to teach that being a good person is what Christianity is all about. "

good words Excelsior. I teach Sunday School to high school kids. A few of whom have attended a private Christian school since age 5. They are sorely lacking in their Biblical knowledge versus those kids whose parents did th emajority of the teaching in the home and had their local church augment and aid the education process. Outsourcing doesn't work. Here in calgary a program has started where religion is studied in the High School. A friend of mine who is the Youth for Christ chaplain at one of the high schools is involved in teaching the class. They have attended a Sikh temple, a Buddhist temple and plan on attending a Mosque as well as a Christaian service.

The plus is that the kids at the multi-denominational and racial school are learning about each other but even more impressive is that many of the Asian kids are really asking about Jesus and after careful examination of who He is are coming to know Him as God and Saviour.

Religion in the schools is great as long as all religions get their truth taught. Unfotunately though Christianity gets watered down and Islam gets the violence accentuated and Eastern religion are promoted as peaceful and inner spirited.

ArthurDent

UU wrote:

Sorry Robindch, I don't have any statistics. I said it in an article in today's Irish Times and when studying the social area of Home Economics, it says "Gael scoileanna differ from most Irish primary Irish schools in that they are not controlled by any church or parish and in that they teach all subjects through Irish. A group of parents can set up a Gael Scoil but will have to fund the cost of a site and the local contribution. A Gael Scoil must satisfy Department regulations regarding teacher qualifications, suitability of premises, etc." Although there are exceptions of Gael scoileanna being controlled by the Church.

Sorry for being pedantic but the vast majority of Gaelscolieanna are jointly under the patronage of an Foras Patrunach and one or other of the major christian denominations - they are either of a Catholic ethos or Interdenominational ( not multidenominational - there is a difference!)

iceworm

ArthurDent wrote:

Iceworm, if you are in a Catholic School with a Catholic ethos - what do you expect? If it is a catholic school - how is ot hypocritical to be celebrating a catholic festival? If its a multidenominational school maybe you should have a word with your student council or your BOM if you feel very strongly about this.

i dont go to a catolic school thats wat im angry about its supposed to be multi denominational and they keep saying that . it a community school thats the problem .

UU

iceworm wrote:

i dont go to a catolic school thats wat im angry about its supposed to be multi denominational and they keep saying that . it a community school thats the problem .

Then do something about it! You should try doing a petition with others who dislike the Catholic ethos too and other protests. In my school the Catholic part is an option which isn't enforced. They respect the faith of others which I like. The only reason my school has it is because it was set up by the Carmelite Fathers, Brigidine Sisters and County Dublin VEC. I go to Ballinteer Community School (BCS) and I'm in 6th year. What about you, iceworm?

iceworm

i go to lucan community college 3rd year . most of the people imn my year feel the same way . i think i might try and get a petition goin next year in transition.:D

ArthurDent

iceworm wrote:

i go to lucan community college 3rd year . most of the people imn my year feel the same way . i think i might try and get a petition goin next year in transition.:D

Just looked at their web site

"It is multi denominational, catering for students from a wide variety of religious backgrounds
It is co-educational, catering for boys and girls equally
It is comprehensive, offering a broad educational experience.
The motto of the college, "Aontas" (Unity), encapsulates the ethos of the college. Our fundamental belief is that school, and in particular the work and the activities involved, should be a pleasant as well as an enriching experience. We therefore lay total emphasis on the school as a community – of students, staff and parents – working in harmony. We consider that everyone has an absolute right to work and develop in a happy atmosphere free from unnecessary stress and tension."

Think you might have a case for bringing this up with the BOM and ask them to justify in the context of multidenominational. However multidenominational doesn't mean that no services can be held in one particular church - it means that an effort should be made to reflect the cultural and religious mix of the school in its activity. If you feel really strongly about it - write to the BOM. Best of luck

AD

robindch

> The motto of the college, "Aontas" (Unity), encapsulates the ethos of the college.

Arrrgghh -- another place with a bloody "ethos"!

And now, a word from google:

Hooray phrase         Ocurrences
------------------    ----------
[url=http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=%22christian+ethos%22&btnG=Search&meta=]"christian ethos"[/url]     76,700
"catholic ethos"      32,900
"islamic ethos"          921
"protestant ethos"       674
"orthodox ethos"         346
"presbyterian ethos"     135
"atheist ethos"           84

hmm... I think you have your answer :cool:

Dades

robindch wrote:

Arrrgghh -- another place with a bloody "ethos"!

There you go again - raggin' on "ethos"...

You've demonstrated that the only reason the don't like the word is that you've have associated it with all things Christian.

I happen to think it's a great word, and you can have a personal ethos without religion.
It's what you make it not what others associate with the word.

Asiaprod

The Atheist wrote:

I happen to think it's a great word, and you can have a personal ethos without religion.
It's what you make it not what others associate with the word.

I second that

robindch

> the only reason the don't like the word is that you've have
> associated it with all things Christian.

Oh, that it were that simple

No, as I mentioned in my last mucky rant on the topic some while back, my problem with this particular hooray-word is that it has a tendency to cloud or stifle debate in the same way that the word "moral" does, and, to a slightly lesser extent, the word "ethical". That it's asymetrically linked with christianity doesn't, I believe, indicate much more than that the christians noticed how it can be used before other religions did.

I hasten to add that I'm reflecting what I've noticed about how the word is used and I may, of course, be completely off the mark with the above. But I would be interested in hearing whether or not anybody's ever *questioned* the validity or worth of an "ethos", and whether or not the concept provides an unambiguous meaning in the context within which it's used.

Dades

robindch wrote:

But I would be interested in hearing whether or not anybody's ever *questioned* the validity or worth of an "ethos", and whether or not the concept provides an unambiguous meaning in the context within which it's used.

I don't think you can question the the "validity" or measure the worth of an ethos, in the same way you can't an 'opinion'.

You could suggest Ghandi had the right ethos, and Hitler's was 'invalid'. But like an opinion ultimately it's a personal thing and it depends what side of the fence you're on. Does majority approval make it right?

A [substitute religion] ethos - is simply an ethos that is based on the tenets of that religion.

Hmm. Probably answered nothing there.

robindch

> Hmm. Probably answered nothing there.

On the contrary. In the nicest way possible, you've made my point by obligingly showing how much "ethos" can produce a semantic pea-soup out of an otherwise simple discussion -- thanks!

Dades

robindch wrote:

On the contrary. In the nicest way possible, you've made my point by obligingly showing how much "ethos" can produce a semantic pea-soup out of an otherwise simple discussion -- thanks!

Where exactly was this 'otherwise simple discussion' taking place?

If we were to leave out words that complicate discussions we wouldn't be left with much. I think you need to meet Ethos behind the bikesheds after school and sort this out once and for all.

arctic lemur

As a former Secondary School RE teacher, i taught in a community school and i taught the new curriculum. In my view it is interesting, varied and embracing of all faiths. Some textbooks though teach it from a Catholic viewpoint. I believe all religions should be studied including philosophy and aetheism in order to foster tolerance in society and to create well rounded individuals who are not afraid to challenge the norm. Learning how to form structured arguments is an important tool when they go on to college/working world later. I did a passover meal with two of the classes and it was quite enjoyable. More hands on activities and active participation should be used to open up discussions and interesting dialogue. By the way on another point there are very few resources for the teaching of religion through irish! found it difficult when i was teaching due to lack of support for people teaching the curriculum through Irish.

iceworm

artic lemur wrote:

As a former Secondary School RE teacher, i taught in a community school and i taught the new curriculum. In my view it is interesting, varied and embracing of all faiths. Some textbooks though teach it from a Catholic viewpoint. I believe all religions should be studied including philosophy and aetheism in order to foster tolerance in society and to create well rounded individuals who are not afraid to challenge the norm. Learning how to form structured arguments is an important tool when they go on to college/working world later. I did a passover meal with two of the classes and it was quite enjoyable. More hands on activities and active participation should be used to open up discussions and interesting dialogue. By the way on another point there are very few resources for the teaching of religion through irish! found it difficult when i was teaching due to lack of support for people teaching the curriculum through Irish.

good point. wish we were thought that book

Cantab.

artic lemur wrote:

As a former Secondary School RE teacher, i taught in a community school and i taught the new curriculum. In my view it is interesting, varied and embracing of all faiths. Some textbooks though teach it from a Catholic viewpoint. I believe all religions should be studied including philosophy and aetheism in order to foster tolerance in society and to create well rounded individuals who are not afraid to challenge the norm. Learning how to form structured arguments is an important tool when they go on to college/working world later. I did a passover meal with two of the classes and it was quite enjoyable. More hands on activities and active participation should be used to open up discussions and interesting dialogue. By the way on another point there are very few resources for the teaching of religion through irish! found it difficult when i was teaching due to lack of support for people teaching the curriculum through Irish.

That's all very fine, but for many parents who are Catholics/Protestants that kind of angle on 'religion' is just not good enough. It is of utmost importance that their children are told about God, the faith, the church and the truth by qualified teachers.

I do think however that there is a problem with Catholic education in Ireland at present: It is plainly obvious that most of the parents who send their children to schools in the Catholic ethos are not regular Mass goers and flout church rules on a daily basis. Although a child will never be denied an education on this basis, it is not good for the Church.

I really think (my humble opinion) some sort of consolidation needs to take place with a much smaller number of proper Catholic schools for proper Catholic families where children are taught about the Bible and the catechism of the Catholic Church from an early age. Whilst I have been fortunate to have a Catholic education (vincentian fathers), I don't remember my RE classes being particularly pious and I would honestly say 99% of them were more philosophy classes than RE ones (I left school in '99).

So the government needs to build more non-denominational schools to satisfy the growing secular population: Not the mass-implementation of some wishy-washy national cirriculum that smells of moral relativism which is being imposed on faith schools.

ArthurDent

Cantab. wrote:

So the government needs to build more non-denominational schools to satisfy the growing secular population: Not the mass-implementation of some wishy-washy national cirriculum that smells of moral relativism which is being imposed on faith schools.

No problem with that, so long as faith schools don't want public funding. If they want to be publically funded the government has every right to implement any type of "wishy washy national curriculum" it sees fit.

Cantab.

ArthurDent wrote:

No problem with that, so long as faith schools don't want public funding. If they want to be publically funded the government has every right to implement any type of "wishy washy national curriculum" it sees fit.

You know so-called private schools receive a huge amount of public money and the teachers in such schools get their salaries from the state.

Of course faith schools don't just teach religion all day and provide well-educated citizens of the future who sit state examinations, so why shouldn't they be entitled to government money?

Faith is a private matter and the government should not interfere in the individual ethos of a school otherwise state sanctioned secularism is dictated to the entire population.

UU

Cantab. wrote:

That's all very fine, but for many parents who are Catholics/Protestants that kind of angle on 'religion' is just not good enough. It is of utmost importance that their children are told about God, the faith, the church and the truth by qualified teachers.

Parents who should wish to send their kids to a religious schools should have the right to do so but I just think it is awfully unfair that most national schools are run by the Catholic Church but I suppose most of Ireland's population is Catholic. They should be told about the teachings of all religions and atheism, humanism, etc.

Cantab. wrote:

I do think however that there is a problem with Catholic education in Ireland at present: It is plainly obvious that most of the parents who send their children to schools in the Catholic ethos are not regular Mass goers and flout church rules on a daily basis. Although a child will never be denied an education on this basis, it is not good for the Church.

I really think (my humble opinion) some sort of consolidation needs to take place with a much smaller number of proper Catholic schools for proper Catholic families where children are taught about the Bible and the catechism of the Catholic Church from an early age. Whilst I have been fortunate to have a Catholic education (vincentian fathers), I don't remember my RE classes being particularly pious and I would honestly say 99% of them were more philosophy classes than RE ones (I left school in '99).

I couldn't agree with you more actually. I was baptised in the Catholic Church, made my communion and confirmation but my parents only baptised me due my grandparents' wishes so I think it was stupid they did it. A few proper Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc. schools should be there for those who are observant to the faith of their children.

So the government needs to build more non-denominational schools to satisfy the growing secular population: Not the mass-implementation of some wishy-washy national cirriculum that smells of moral relativism which is being imposed on faith schools.[/QUOTE]I think non-denominational schools aren't good as the students are exposed to any religion there. Multi-denominational schools are best as students can learn about all religions including atheism, humanism, etc. That is the best as everyone can understand and tolerate each others beliefs and thus reducing sectarianism. Catholics can mix with Protestants, Jews can mix with Muslims, theists with atheists and so forth.

ArthurDent

Cantab. wrote:

Faith is a private matter

Exactly and as such has no place in my opinion in a publically funded school.
I don't agree with any publically funded school teaching any faith based system as DOCTRINE. I have no problem with information on different faith based systems but why should any publically funded system preferentially present one faith over another. And for the record I don't think any private school should be publically funded - you want a private education and all the advantage then allegedly confers - you pay for it.

Cantab. wrote:

the government should not interfere in the individual ethos of a school otherwise state sanctioned secularism is dictated to the entire population.

So in your opinion the Govt should pay for the school, but have no say on its running.

Cantab.

ArthurDent wrote:

I don't agree with any publically funded school teaching any faith based system as DOCTRINE.

But state imposed secularism is itself a dogma!

UU

Cantab. wrote:

You know so-called private schools receive a huge amount of public money and the teachers in such schools get their salaries from the state.

Of course faith schools don't just teach religion all day and provide well-educated citizens of the future who sit state examinations, so why shouldn't they be entitled to government money?

Faith is a private matter and the government should not interfere in the individual ethos of a school otherwise state sanctioned secularism is dictated to the entire population.

Yeah true but there should be a choice of different types of schools for everyone. I have heard private schools do get government funds. Well they can't teach faith all day long as there are other just as important things to learn about too and it would get rather boring. Most state schools are still RC Church owned. The ones that aren't are other denominational schools, non-denominational (including some Gaelscoileanna), multi-denominational, secondary community schools (which I'm in!), VECs and community colleges. Privite schools get funds as they are still providing society with the right of education.

Someone I know taught in a primary Jewish school and there was only 6 Jews in the class! The rest were "gentiles" but the school still observed Chanukah, Rosh Hashanah and other Jewish festivals. The school was private owned but received some state funds as well as funds from some Jewish council in Israel or somewhere (the leaders of Judaism I think!).

Cantab.

ArthurDent wrote:

So in your opinion the Govt should pay for the school, but have no say on its running.

As long as well-educated, literate and well-spoken students are coming out with good leaving cert results, why is someone's religion such a big problem to you?

UU

Cantab. wrote:

But state imposed secularism is itself a dogma!

No it isn't! And it isn't imposed either. In my state-run school, there are Catholics, a good few Muslims, and many others. We aren't condemned for having a faith nor practising it. We are taught about all religions. Anyway, I've never heard of the Church of Secularism before, have you? There wouldn't be much to talk about! Secularism is not a religion and therefore has no dogma so quit fooling yourself Cantab.

BrianCalgary

Secularism may not be an official religion, but it would cause a certain world view, which then could determine where one's faith goes.

What I would mean is that basically all of us desire a good peaceful life. Our approaches to attaining this would be different. I put my faith in God. A secular humanist would put their faith in mankind to be able to solve all of mans problems.

Therefore secularism could be construed as a belief system that would cause one to put their faith in mankind solving problems through government, and I know this next bit is very simplistic, but it leads to socialism.

James Sire has written some very good books on worldviews. Naming the Elephant is one. Not easy reading.