primetime anti-social behaviour-what's to be done

democrates

I don't like the idea of putting the boot into under-privileged youth, but the strongest critics of that argument come from the same backgrounds. The view is that "I had the same background but I chose to do right, not wrong".

What do you do about teens who threaten people and run riot putting windows in, burning out cars and even houses?

And what about the accountability of their parents?

When I put myself in the shoes of targets I find myself reconsidering ASBO's and radio tags, as well as the plan for a Garda Reserve.

Also, how do we correct the perception in the minds of these offenders of the paths they can choose in life?

CerebralCortex

democrates wrote:

I don't like the idea of putting the boot into under-privileged youth, but the strongest critics of that argument come from the same backgrounds. The view is that "I had the same background but I chose to do right, not wrong".

What do you do about teens who threaten people and run riot putting windows in, burning out cars and even houses?

And what about the accountability of their parents?

When I put myself in the shoes of targets I find myself reconsidering ASBO's and radio tags, as well as the plan for a Garda Reserve.

Also, how do we correct the perception in the minds of these offenders of the paths they can choose in life?

One thing is to get rid of the reactionry government we currently have now cause I think they will exacerbate the problem as time goes on(urban sprawl and all that lark).

Maskhadov

some of it looked pretty rough. Ireland seems to be decending to the same low level as brixton in parts.

If ASBOs work then defintely introduce them. We need a massive garda reserve who can interact with local communites and figure out who is causing the problems. We need more facilities for kids to keep them off the streets and better rehabilitation for repeat offenders.

We dont want to end up with suburbs like in Paris.

gurramok

This is not a recent thing, its been happening for last 20 odd years, its just getting more common and yes i did grow up in one of those estates and i did turn out ok
Families whose kids run riot should have severe financial penalties and should be threatened to be evicted from their local authority house and out on the street.
Hurt them in the pocket, this along with a police force and judicial system which enforces the law would help.

bonkey

democrates wrote:

What do you do about teens who threaten people and run riot putting windows in, burning out cars and even houses?

You don't look for a short-term "solution".

Dave!

More police on the streets, and make the courts stricter when dealing with these people. It's ridiculous having someone being arrested for crimes in the double figures and not getting sent to jail. Everyone's entitled to a mistake, sometimes we do it again -- the third time, that's a joke, they need to be off the street.

FTA69

Exactly bonkey, anti-social behaviour is a complex problem in our society that knee-jerk gimmicks are not going to fix. The whole fabric of our society needs to be re-examined and reformed, the police also need drastic and radical change in the way they are trained and in the way they operate. ASBOs and curfews etc will simply further alienate youths from society, simply packing them into St Pat's or Clonmel will also result in them coming out a lot more disturbed and vicious than they went in. Community restorative justice needs to be the touchstone for all action taken against anti-social behaviour, with an aim placed upon reintroducing the youth to the community as opposed to pushing him/her away even further, lessons can be learned from the CRJ project in the 6 Counties.

The planning of housing estates needs to be addressed, for decades we have seen poor quality housing thrown up in close proximity and with absolutely no services within the area, over the years these areas become dilapidated and depressed and this undoubtedly leads to an increase in ASB. The issue of drink is also a prominent one, and licenses should be denied to off-licenses in residential areas. Likewise, all offies should by law have to stamp their name and address on every can or flagon they sell so the offending alcohol litter left behind can be traced back.

Policing needs to be responsive and equipped to deal with ASB, Templemore should be scrapped and policing should become a university course so that cadets have experience in an urban environment. Police should also be from the areas in which they operate, how can someone from rural Kerry or Longford possible understand areas like Coolock or Mahon? The cops are already viewed as an outside force in many deprived areas, often due to their own prejudices, intimidating behaviour and complete apathy. This could be eradicated by having policing boards in the south (as outlined in the Patten reforms) as well as community forums to give people a voice on how they are policed.

ishmael whale

FTA69 wrote:

Policing needs to be responsive and equipped to deal with ASB, Templemore should be scrapped and policing should become a university course so that cadets have experience in an urban environment.

Absolutely. Its essential to take Garda training from its isolation in Templemore to a city location that can actually provide the necessary support environment for such an important task.

FTA69 wrote:

Police should also be from the areas in which they operate, how can someone from rural Kerry or Longford possible understand areas like Coolock or Mahon? The cops are already viewed as an outside force in many deprived areas, often due to their own prejudices, intimidating behaviour and complete apathy.

Indeed. The recent removal of the Irish requirement should help this process. One of the negative consequences of the language bar was the way it limited the pool from which the Gardai drew its membership.

FTA69

Personally Irish in the police is of little concern to me, on another note though, the Irish curriculum should be reformed completely to put an emphasis on oral proficiency. The proficiency of people in Irish would then rise and would probably become less of an issue.

Beruthiel

I had a little taste of this type of behaviour while living near ballyfermot, from 10 to 14 year olds. How is it possible that kids of that age can scare you? Throwing stones, glass bottles, setting fire to rubbish bins, getting drunk. I lost the rag with them one night, I was told that if I laid a hand on them their dad would have me up in court
These kids would be out on the streets anywhere up to midnight. Their parents need to be held accountable, though what parent in their right mind lets kids of that age out till that time of night?
It’s a catch 22 situation and the answer to it will not be an easy one. But when I was a kid I know I would have been practically killed if I were to behave like this, they have no fear of any type of retribution, that seems to be the problem, how to fix it though....

FTA69

Probably because their parent(s) are apathetic alcoholics/drug addicts who create a home where misery, depression and domestic violence warp a child to that point. The prevalence of unaddressed mental health issues, both in the youth and in the home is also of importance in my opinion.

Uthur

FTA69 wrote:

Probably because their parent(s) are apathetic alcoholics/drug addicts who create a home where misery, depression and domestic violence warp a child to that point. The prevalence of unaddressed mental health issues, both in the youth and in the home is also of importance in my opinion.

You said the cleverest thing! Your prize is in the mail

It is true. I've lived on the Nortside for decades. The kids who go off the rails always have ARSEHOLES for parents. The kids with responsible, caring parents who actually give a sh1t, turn out ok 99.9% of the time.

Uthur

Uthur wrote:

It is true. I've lived on the Nortside for decades. The kids who go off the rails always have ARSEHOLES for parents. The kids with responsible, caring parents who actually give a sh1t, turn out ok 99.9% of the time.

You don't this is a cop out?

Look, while a large percentage of the trouble does come from families with troubled histories, like drug or alcohol abuse, how do you explain the growing number of kids from middle & richer families that are involving themselves in this type of life.

I must admit that while I'd seen the growing number of kids on the streets, I hadn't made the connection with the trouble thats been brewing for years. The problem is that there is no discipline, and no responsibility by anyone.

Children these days aren't disciplined. Schools can't hit children for misbehaving, nor can parents really do so in public. Therefore the method we all learnt, that if we did something wrong has been removed. There is no incentive for kids to stick to the "normal" path, but rather because they can't be touched they're above the law, and they know it. What can the Law do them? Beyond a warning, perhaps returning the kid to the parents, the Law is pretty much neutralised, because kids cannot be tried under Adult laws.

Added to this is the lack of responsibility of parents across the board. This includes parents of all classes. When i was growing up, it would be rare to see kids aged 13-16 out at 1 AM in large groups. Nowadays it become almost commonplace. Simply, parents aren't controlling their children. They're not restricting their movements, or even caring what they're doing. This lack of responsibility by many parents in Ireland is another reason why this is happening.

One more addition. Throughout Irish History we've had the Catholic church watching over us. they were in our schools, in our Parishes, and had regular dealings with parents. You may have seen priests, or Brothers catching troublesome kids, and either disciplining them or talking to their parents. Then the child molesting cases came to light and people lost respect for the Church. And while people still went to church, and prayed, the Church representatives no longer had that power in the society. And what filled that vaccum of power? The Government. With its legistlation and nanny-style handling of the country. Which has failed to work.

The problem is that modern troublesome kids have more rights than normal law abiding people.

---

Just in regards to people mentioning the lack of facilities, what facilities did YOU have when you were their ages? When I was their age there was a cinema (3-4 miles away) and a swimming pool. Thats it. Apart from that there was access to school football pitches and the usual hurling areas.

So why do modern kids need better facilities? What benefit does it actually do for them? because in many areas where playgrounds or such facilities have been built, they've been burnt or vandalised. :rolleyes:

JimmySmith

Im getting tired of listening to people preaching about something bigger needing to be done about anti social behaviour. What needs to be done needs to be done now not after they figure out who is to blame etc.

Let those people against asbos spend a night in one of these areas and talk to the little ****s and their parents about why they are throwing rocks through an old womans window. I bet these riteous campaigners they would be in fear of their lives if they had to stay in the old ladys house alone.

My aunt has had to move 3 times because the little pricks find out where she moved to, steal cars and terrorize her there. Why? because she gave out to a bunch of 10 year old 3 years ago for smashing the window of a neighbours car. Now every time she is re housed they appear within weeks. I have gone to their parents and left in fear of my life after the parents threatened me with acid in the face, baseball bats etc if i ever came back. The cops just shrug and say 'nothing we can do'.

All well and good for the anti asbo people living in their nice quiet neighbourhoods while 80 year old women are terrorized every single night. That is what needs to change, however we do it. Its just not on for old women to spend their last days in fear of looking out their windows.

So talk all you want but until one of these politicians tells me that they have gone on their own at 11 at night to spend a few hours in a troubled area i have zero respect for their opinion. They wouldnt last 5 minutes.

Prime time wasnt filmed in a studio, what they showed happens every night to people, so open your eyes and helpthe people that deserve it.

FTA69

Let those people against asbos spend a night in one of these areas and talk to the little ****s

As someone who grew up in "one of those areas" I can speak with authority, as an 18 year old who comes into contact with these people very often I can probably speak with more authority on the subject than you can, so please do not attempt to portray everyone against ASBOs as some sort of middle class ponce.

The cops just shrug and say 'nothing we can do'.

And I suppose you nodded and swallowed their bullsh*t about how their "hands are tied", "no resources" and other assorted crap. If the police refuse to take action against crime in these areas what makes you think they will enforce ASBOs, a gimmick peace of paper? Why don't they simply act on the existing legislation (which is quite extensive) and arrest those involved? My theory is that since none of them are actually from these areas, or similar areas, or that because there is no community forums to advise on the issue, they simply couldn't care less.

All well and good for the anti asbo people living in their nice quiet neighbourhoods

More generalisations.

So talk all you want but until one of these politicians tells me that they have gone on their own at 11 at night to spend a few hours in a troubled area i have zero respect for their opinion.

Nearly every Sinn Féin councillor in Dublin is from and lives in these areas that are worst afflicted eg Ballymun, Cabra, Artane, Coolock, Ballyfermot, Crumlin etc etc etc, however you don't see them championing legislation that will simply make it an imprisonable offense to breach an ASBO which has no foundation on proof, or whether the action in question is illegal or not. ASB is more a complex a problem than can be fixed with attractive gimmicks that will do little to address the problem.

JimmySmith

FTA69 wrote:

As someone who grew up in "one of those areas" I can speak with authority, as an 18 year old who comes into contact with these people very often I can probably speak with more authority on the subject than you can, so please do not attempt to portray everyone against ASBOs as some sort of middle class ponce.

So did i grow up in 'these areas', and my brothers, sisters and parents still live there, so stop with your own generalizations. I am home regularily and no exactly what is going on.

FTA69 wrote:

And I suppose you nodded and swallowed their bullsh*t about how their "hands are tied", "no resources" and other assorted crap. If the police refuse to take action against crime in these areas what makes you think they will enforce ASBOs, a gimmick peace of paper? Why don't they simply act on the existing legislation (which is quite extensive) and arrest those involved? My theory is that since none of them are actually from these areas, or similar areas, or that because there is no community forums to advise on the issue, they simply couldn't care less.

What do you suggest i do, hit them? Umlike you, i believe the police do care, but their hands are indeed tied.

FTA69 wrote:

Nearly every Sinn Féin councillor in Dublin is from and lives in these areas that are worst afflicted eg Ballymun, Cabra, Artane, Coolock, Ballyfermot, Crumlin etc etc etc, however you don't see them championing legislation that will simply make it an imprisonable offense to breach an ASBO which has no foundation on proof, or whether the action in question is illegal or not. ASB is more a complex a problem than can be fixed with attractive gimmicks that will do little to address the problem.

Oh i wonder why?
Why would SF want to destroy the IRA rectuiting grounds and bring some law into an area that provides enough underage bodies to do their dirty work for them. God forbid these 'Kids' get arrested and are no longer able to help the cause.

Some more experience i can add for you. My uncle is one of the SF prats. They send out the ****s to cause trouble and then the SF prats go around and tell people to vote for them and they'll clean the place up. But will he make an attempt to hel an aunt on the opposite side of my family than his - no, because its not in his interests. You should see the tripe from SF that gets put into the letterboxes.

It looks like the only part of my post you didnt address was the the part about doing something for the old women living in terror besides talking.

Maskhadov

what i would like to know is... is this anti social behaviour possible to stop or do we live in a country where this kind of behaviour is here to stay and will get far worse in future ?

bus77

Maskhadov wrote:

what i would like to know is... is this anti social behaviour possible to stop or do we live in a country where this kind of behaviour is here to stay and will get far worse in future ?

It's here to stay. Sure that's what happens when ya build hundreds of little grey houses and say "move here everyone"

JimmySmith

Maskhadov wrote:

what i would like to know is... is this anti social behaviour possible to stop or do we live in a country where this kind of behaviour is here to stay and will get far worse in future ?

I'm sure its like crime in general. It may be impossible to stop, but we should be doing everything possible to stop it all the same.

Firewalkwithme

I say, bring back The Cat!

homerjay540

i was watching a program on brittish tv reciently which looked at asbo's from both sides - they had victams of violence and people who had asbo's issued to them. the impression i got from that program is that somebody can be given an asbo and before they get a chance to defend themselves or declare their innocence, if they breach the asbo they can be sent straight to jail - without being able to defend themselves. even if at a later date a judge feels that the asbo was initially unjust, the offender must still complete the prison sentence.
it was to do with cases fast tracked because of violence in the initial offence.
is this correct?

Maskhadov

Maskhadov wrote:

what i would like to know is... is this anti social behaviour possible to stop or do we live in a country where this kind of behaviour is here to stay and will get far worse in future ?

Its here to stay as long as the government continues half measures and we continue to give these people more rights than they deserve. Lets face it, in most cases the people involved could be reformed if pushed hard enough.

A friend of mine has a great suggestion. Have any of you watched that show "Brat Camp" on E4? Just a larger size and more organised.

Three strike rule on kids. On 3rd strike, they're sent to a college built exclusively for these troublemakers. A strict regime of physical exercise, education and psychological testing for the period of a year. Those that respond to the course would be allowed to visit parents on weekends, those that didn't respond, wouldn't be allowed back until they reformed. Its kind of hard to be angry all the time if you're exhausted both mentally and physically. An environment with discipline and people that understand without being weak, would change most of these people into valuable members of society.

While the kids are at the college, the parents are taught how to be parents. If they refuse to attend or fail to make an effort, the children are taken away from them for good. You do after all have to protect the kids from their parents.

But then this could never happen, because every human rights group would be up in arms, forgetting the reasons why these people would be sent there in the first place. :rolleyes: Also the government would take 9 years, and probably 50% overbudget to build the place. And then they'd staff it with idiots that have no backbone, or the other extreme, of being unable to understand the kids.

No. Things will get worse, and you'll find the middle class and upper classes moving into the countryside, restricting who can live nearby. The lower earners will live on the suburbs of the cities, and the city centres will be ultra rich with hotels and apartments. Lovely. :rolleyes:

oscarBravo

homerjay540 wrote:

the impression i got from that program is that somebody can be given an asbo and before they get a chance to defend themselves or declare their innocence, if they breach the asbo they can be sent straight to jail - without being able to defend themselves.

What's considered a breach of an ASBO? I'm not that au fait with the concept.

Manic Moran

So what actually has changed in the last 20 years or so then?

Why has this suddenly become an issue that didn't exist way back when, or is it simply a matter of a problem that has long existed only now becoming one more commonly perceived?

My younger brother is one of those middle-class types who's falling onto what I consider the wrong side. He claims I (and my dad) are not in touch with the modern realities of acceptable culture. (And it goes way beyond questionable fashion sense.)

Hmm.

NTM

oscarBravo

Manic Moran wrote:

My younger brother is one of those middle-class types who's falling onto what I consider the wrong side. He claims I (and my dad) are not in touch with the modern realities of acceptable culture.

Throw a brick through his window while he sleeps, and burn his car (or something equivalently valuable to him, if he doesn't have one).

Then ask him how "acceptable" it is.

Manic Moran

oscarBravo wrote:

Throw a brick through his window while he sleeps, and burn his car (or something equivalently valuable to him, if he doesn't have one).

Then ask him how "acceptable" it is.

Hmm.. fortunately, he's drawing the lines right now at destroying his own life, he's not done anything that I know of that caused physical damage to others.

NTM

JimmySmith

Manic Moran wrote:

So what actually has changed in the last 20 years or so then?

Why has this suddenly become an issue that didn't exist way back when, or is it simply a matter of a problem that has long existed only now becoming one more commonly perceived?

My younger brother is one of those middle-class types who's falling onto what I consider the wrong side. He claims I (and my dad) are not in touch with the modern realities of acceptable culture. (And it goes way beyond questionable fashion sense.)

Hmm.

NTM

Its always been happening where i lived, but i think the offenders are starting younger now than they were in my youth. They are also more aware of the law now as in what they can and cant get away with so will push the limits out.

I'd like to know where the parents are or do they know how to parent at all.

I know if my Dad (God be good to him RIP) ever caught me at what these rogues are at, he would have tanned my backside.

And we didnt grow up in any kind of privileged background either, scraping pennies together came from hard work.

JimmySmith

Earthman wrote:

I'd like to know where the parents are or do they know how to parent at all.

I know if my Dad (God be good to him RIP) ever caught me at what these rogues are at, he would have tanned my backside.

And we didnt grow up in any kind of privileged background either, scraping pennies together came from hard work.

Parents dont give a ****. In fact some of my mates parents used to pat them on the back for giving people grief. Also once a kid gets into a certain amount of trouble the parents give up on them. The parents should be made responsible for their childrens actions. In fairness some parents cant control and are even scared of their kids though.

pete

Deleted User wrote:

On 3rd strike, they're sent to a college built exclusively for these troublemakers. A strict regime of physical exercise, education and psychological testing for the period of a year. Those that respond to the course would be allowed to visit parents on weekends, those that didn't respond, wouldn't be allowed back until they reformed. Its kind of hard to be angry all the time if you're exhausted both mentally and physically. An environment with discipline and people that understand without being weak, would change most of these people into valuable members of society.

Because it worked so well at industrial / borstal / reform schools in the past?

Dealing with the causes > Institutionalising 10 year olds

JimmySmith

Deleted User wrote:

Dealing with the causes > Institutionalising 10 year olds

Maybe but Protecting the Elderly from yobbism > Institutionalising 10 year olds

RedPlanet

Waiting for the gardia or the government to do something is not going to produce results. At most they will pass more laws giving the government more powers but this will result in feck all change on the ground.

If people are serious about anti-social behavior then we already know what to do about it. It's been done already in NI, it's called "people power", or "Vigilantes" depending upon your political persuasion and what papers you read.

Like pushing the dealers out back in the 80's. in Dublin.
Communties can organise their own volutary street patrols (this has been done in many cities around the world) in order to "take back the streets";
alternatively communties can wait until SF does this for them, and they will.
And they will probably benefit politically for it.

Uncle F

give the army the same power as the cops and leave them patrol the areas. there doing **** all else in the barracks anyway only scratching their arses.

also leave them set up boot camps in the Curragh for young offenders.

there was a debate on again on tuesday night on Q&A or Primetime (cant remember which 1 it was) and i thought your man john halligan was very critical of waterford city council but he was right in what he said

pete

pete wrote:

Because it worked so well at industrial / borstal / reform schools in the past?

What? Just because it didn't work in the past, that with advances in psychology and human understanding it couldn't work now?

Such camps for troubled kids ARE working around the world. This would just be a larger scale.

Deleted User wrote:

Dealing with the causes > Institutionalising 10 year olds

Your only objection is that its institutionalising 10 year olds? Hmmm... so target kids from 13-17 years old. That would still remove a huge % of those involved in these issues. Better than doing nothing, and watch our society slowly tear itself apart.

FTA69

What do you suggest i do, hit them? Umlike you, i believe the police do care, but their hands are indeed tied.

Why should the police care? As I said already none of them are from the areas afflicted, none of them have any interest in actually coming to an area when an incident happens, which is proved by the time disparity between their calls to upper class areas and those afflicted with anti-social behaviour. To reiterate myself, the legislation is already in place to deal with such issues, councils also have the power to inact bye-laws on the issues. Why bring in some gimmick that will simply criminalise people for not breaking any registered law?

Why would SF want to destroy the IRA rectuiting grounds and bring some law into an area that provides enough underage bodies to do their dirty work for them. God forbid these 'Kids' get arrested and are no longer able to help the cause.

Eh? What do we have to gain from delinquints running our areas into the ground?

They send out the ****s to cause trouble and then the SF prats go around and tell people to vote for them and they'll clean the place up.

Of course, the dastardly soundrels! You obviously take working-class people for fools do you? Because they must be prize idiots to make sure that our councillors top the poll in most of these areas. To be honest, you've demonstrated your lack of understanding of this issue with the nonsense conspiracies you've been spouting. Anyway, I've debated the merits of my party on this forum hundreds of times before and I've no real desire to do so again.

It looks like the only part of my post you didnt address was the the part about doing something for the old women living in terror besides talking

I said that ASB can only be addressed through far-reaching and radical reforms of policing and the approach taken to miscreants, as well as ensuring that these areas aren't wracked with the poverty that is ultimately responsible for this behaviour. It's a complex issue which can't be simplified by the "they're scum, lock em' all up" mantra which has failed utterly in every country it has been tried eg the USA.

Earthman,

know if my Dad (God be good to him RIP) ever caught me at what these rogues are at, he would have tanned my backside

They probably do get "tanned" with frequency, I'd imagine their mothers do as well. Domestic violence is often a large factor in causing this type of behaviour.

growler

oscarBravo wrote:

What's considered a breach of an ASBO? I'm not that au fait with the concept.

failure to comply (sounds like Robocop that) with the terms of the ASBO, i.e, breaking a curfew, being found in a group of X or more, found on a street where they are prescribed from being etc.

A strange one I saw cited on BBC recently was a young fella of 15 ish being found in breach of the terms of his asbo because he was playing football, the ASBO prevented him being in a group of 5 or more !

JimmySmith

FTA69 wrote:

Why should the police care? As I said already none of them are from the areas afflicted, none of them have any interest in actually coming to an area when an incident happens, which is proved by the time disparity between their calls to upper class areas and those afflicted with anti-social behaviour. To reiterate myself, the legislation is already in place to deal with such issues, councils also have the power to inact bye-laws on the issues. Why bring in some gimmick that will simply criminalise people for not breaking any registered law?

Oh yeah, i forgot SFs attitude to policing. Im fact the police do care. They are very helpful, but powerless. They call up and the scummers are still standing around. They cant arrest them. When they leave they are at it again.

FTA69 wrote:

Eh? What do we have to gain from delinquints running our areas into the ground?

Votes man, votes. As if you didnt know? The votes of the little prats, when they get older of course, that hero worship the SFers and the votes of the poor victims of their twisted strategy.

FTA69 wrote:

Of course, the dastardly soundrels! You obviously take working-class people for fools do you? Because they must be prize idiots to make sure that our councillors top the poll in most of these areas. To be honest, you've demonstrated your lack of understanding of this issue with the nonsense conspiracies you've been spouting. Anyway, I've debated the merits of my party on this forum hundreds of times before and I've no real desire to do so again.

No conspiracies here. I know what i'm talking about and my only aim here is to make people understand that their are victims being terrorised while we debate the root causes for years.

FTA69 wrote:

I said that ASB can only be addressed through far-reaching and radical reforms of policing and the approach taken to miscreants, as well as ensuring that these areas aren't wracked with the poverty that is ultimately responsible for this behaviour. It's a complex issue which can't be simplified by the "they're scum, lock em' all up" mantra which has failed utterly in every country it has been tried eg the USA.

Meanwhile we wont do anything about people who live in misery and fear. Good one.

FTA69 wrote:

They probably do get "tanned" with frequency, I'd imagine their mothers do as well. Domestic violence is often a large factor in causing this type of behaviour.

The only sensible thing you've said so far, but it still doesnt help the victims who are shaking with fear as soon as it gets dark every night.

I know people who used to look forward to a warm sunny day. Now they pray for it to be cold, windy and raining, so the scumbags stay in, while we debate the root causes.
Why not do somthing about it that stops them in their tracks and then we can debate the finer points. And maybe some old folk and children can get a nights sleep while we debate.

oscarBravo

growler wrote:

failure to comply (sounds like Robocop that) with the terms of the ASBO, i.e, breaking a curfew, being found in a group of X or more, found on a street where they are prescribed from being etc.

Right. I tend to walk a middle ground on these things. For example, I'd assume that, in the main, recipients of ASBOs are people who have been involved in behaviour that could be described as anti-social. If that's the case, then it's not unreasonable to insist that they curtail their behaviour. If that means not breaking a curfew until such time as guilt or innocence has been established, then so be it.

Let me explain what I mean. Let's suppose that, through a case of mistaken identity or whatever, I received an ASBO preventing me from being on a particular street. Until such time as I had established my innocence, I wouldn't go on that street. Does that make sense?

growler wrote:

A strange one I saw cited on BBC recently was a young fella of 15 ish being found in breach of the terms of his asbo because he was playing football, the ASBO prevented him being in a group of 5 or more !

That's pretty silly. It doesn't necessarily mean that ASBOs are a bad idea, however; simply that they need to be applied in a sensible manner.

JimmySmith

oscarBravo wrote:

Right. I tend to walk a middle ground on these things. For example, I'd assume that, in the main, recipients of ASBOs are people who have been involved in behaviour that could be described as anti-social. If that's the case, then it's not unreasonable to insist that they curtail their behaviour. If that means not breaking a curfew until such time as guilt or innocence has been established, then so be it.

Now that sounds like a plan to me.

growler wrote:

A strange one I saw cited on BBC recently was a young fella of 15 ish being found in breach of the terms of his asbo because he was playing football, the ASBO prevented him being in a group of 5 or more !

As with all laws etc there are little loop-holes and the like that havent been covered specifically. While its possible that technically a football match would be in breach of an ASBO, was there really any consequences to it or was it just the media spotting this and making a play on it for a story. I doubt very much that the guy was punished for just playing a football match though.

growler

oscarBravo wrote:

Right. I tend to walk a middle ground on these things. For example, I'd assume that, in the main, recipients of ASBOs are people who have been involved in behaviour that could be described as anti-social. If that's the case, then it's not unreasonable to insist that they curtail their behaviour. If that means not breaking a curfew until such time as guilt or innocence has been established, then so be it.

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I don't think they work like that in the UK at least, mostly because the recipients / targets of ASBOs are (a) too young to prosecute (b) being anti-social isn't a crime per se ,i.e. bunch of 15 year olds hanging around a bus stop, getting pissed, smoking dope, shouting abuse, starting fires, doing grafitti and generally making a nuisance of themselves could find themselves subject to an ASBO which specified that they could not congregate together in that street, after 7pm, in groups of 4 or more. Rather than this being punishment for a specific crime it is designed to discourage a potential crime and protect other locals from having to put up with their high jinks! Obviously the problem here is that you are punishing someone for something that they haven't yet done. An ASBO is not supposed to be a punishment, it is an attempt to impose boundaries on an individual's behaviour - the punishment only comes in if the ASBO is breached. It's as much designed to shame parents into knocking some sense into little Johnny as anything else, the problem is that most of these thugs learnt their behaviour from their own loving families.