What makes a Black Belt?

pma-ire

I know this has been done before. But I am really interested on your views on this as it is a kinda hot topic in my group at the moment?

Is it time served? (some mean time as in calander years, as opposed to training in the dojo!)

The amount of kata learnt?

Or ablity to perform?

See the thing is that in asia it's not unknown to see people get to 1st(Sho) dan within a year! While in the west there seems to be a need to keep people on a longer time scale (about 4 years) without taking into account skill and training outside class.

While some people will take longer to reach a level of abilty for this grade others can be natural and are held back.

Thoughts?

Musashi

I think it should be ability to perform, and given that this is a combat sport, ability to be effective in a scrap.
We all know lads with belts given to them for their tournament arranging skills etc. Load of auld bollix! Black belt should mean something, or it gets devalued!

Millionaire

i am 4th degree in mugendo kickboxing.

yeah 1st and 2nd were great to get....performance based etc.

but 3 and 4 ....to be brutally honest.... no difference. more for time spent training i think.

sure in kickboxing you only got 4o or 5 punches and kicks..


nothing you can grade on.

persoanlly and with respect i think kata is great for doing a few moves, etc..but all this hand on hip stuff in forms is pure dung i think. and a waste of time. (ok fun to learn and looks cool, but for the nutter you is trying to smash a pint glass in your face...etc)

so take kata away,...and your back to kicks and punches...same as kickboxing.

personally i have been converted to the muay thai way of thinking. train hard and full blast...thumps. kicks. knee , elbow...and in 1 year of training i think a Muay Thai man will slaughter any striking arts master!

mix that with a bit of RBSD, and ground figthing and your fookin lethal!

memphis

Interest question. What does make a good rounded black belt???

Being only a colour belt in TKD, I can't speak from a BB perspective, but I can imagine what is needed.

I guess it down to performance, be it in competitions.sparring or doing Tuls/kata.

However, there is a hell of alot more to it than that. One should be able to pracrice control, speed, and power, etc. Should be able to understand a situation, and at the best try avoid it.

Know right from wrong, show a form od discipline and dedication to the art, etc etc etc..!!!

That's my 2 cent anyway.

kenpo_dave

In my opinion belts, of any colour, are simply part of a traditional ranking system that really doesnt mean anything outside of the dojo or organisation that the dojo is part of, except for in competitions and that is only for the different divisions.

Gerry, in my experience the kata that have "hand on hip stuff" are only the basic kata. In the more advanced kata that I have done, in both Kung Fu and Kenpo, the hands are in guard positions. Lets also not forget theres weapons kata too.

"i think a Muay Thai man will slaughter any striking arts master"

Muay Thai is definately one of the toughest styles around, theres no doubt about that, but I think you are underestimating striking arts. As I have said before, there are instructors of various striking arts that do conditioning that is comparable to that of Muay Thai. Also, full contact training is not only used by styles that fight mainly in the ring. Perhaps under Muay Thai rules, a Muay Thai fighter will beat most others, but under no rules its a different story. You can almost garauntee that a Silat master will bring his knife and probably sticks to a fight, as both are a very big part of Silat and most Filipino styles. I dont want to get into weapons here, Ill leave that for another discussion.:)

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

persoanlly and with respect i think kata is great for doing a few moves, etc..but all this hand on hip stuff in forms is pure dung i think. and a waste of time. (ok fun to learn and looks cool, but for the nutter you is trying to smash a pint glass in your face...etc)

so take kata away,...and your back to kicks and punches...same as kickboxing.

I'm not gonna get too much into that on this thread. But I do agree that if the movements in a kata are not used for some practical reason. Then there is no real combative benifit to doing them! But I don't train like that

Millionaire wrote:

personally i have been converted to the muay thai way of thinking. train hard and full blast...thumps. kicks. knee , elbow...and in 1 year of training i think a Muay Thai man will slaughter any striking arts master!

mix that with a bit of RBSD, and ground figthing and your fookin lethal!

Indeed the main stream "TMA's" have lost alot of reasoning to there training! But hopefully getting more styles to cross-train can break down barriers and open a few eyes! (and don't mean with cuts )

pma-ire

memphis wrote:

Interest question. What does make a good rounded black belt???

Being only a colour belt in TKD, I can't speak from a BB perspective, but I can imagine what is needed.

I guess it down to performance, be it in competitions.sparring or doing Tuls/kata.

However, there is a hell of alot more to it than that. One should be able to pracrice control, speed, and power, etc. Should be able to understand a situation, and at the best try avoid it.

Know right from wrong, show a form od discipline and dedication to the art, etc etc etc..!!!

That's my 2 cent anyway.

Ok! Fine comments!

But lets say you are training every class you can get to in the week! Doing double the training of your fellow students in your base club! You will start to get better than the guys that just mosey in the two nights a week!

And when it comes to gradings, you still have to wait the same time as the others though you know the next 3 ranks requirements?

Look at it this way!!

Most people train in MA's for about 1.5 hours a class, two times a week!

Thats 3 hours a week! 52 weeks in the year (though some take time out for hols well leave it as is!!)

Thats 156 hours a year! Most associations want you to wait around 4 years before you do your Shodan so this becomes 624 hours of basic training.

Break this back down...

24 hours in a day! Breaks 624 down to 26 days!!

If you were training (even with assoicated instructors) and extra 2 classes in the week and making the progress, then you should be ready for Shodan within a much shorter time period!!

In the east a Shodan is seen as only the first step to learning an art! Not the mastering of it!!

kenpo_dave

"main stream "TMA's" have lost alot of reasoning to there training"

I do agree with you pma-ire. As Ive mentioned before, there is alot of BS being taught out there, and people making all kinds of claims - from people claiming to be able KO people from a few meters away, without even touching them, to others claiming to be able to rip ribs from the rib cage with their hands. I believe that it is these schools, these "McDojos", that have tainted peoples opinions of the TMA.
I certainly am in favour of cross training, particularly with ground fighting styles like BJJ. However, I believe that the only thing TMA people need to open their eyes too is full contact, and ground fighting, if they dont already do some. In my opinion MMA people also have as much to open their eyes to as TMA people. One of the things that really irritates me about alot of MMA people that Ive talked to is that most of them seem to believe that theyve suddenly found the "right" way of training, and that all the training that has been going on for 1000's of years has been wrong. And it is 1000's of years. Theres written records in China from as long ago as 2000 BC, that tell of fighting styles.

pma-ire

kenpo_dave wrote:

"main stream "TMA's" have lost alot of reasoning to there training"

I do agree with you pma-ire. As Ive mentioned before, there is alot of BS being taught out there, and people making all kinds of claims - from people claiming to be able KO people from a few meters away, without even touching them, to others claiming to be able to rip ribs from the rib cage with their hands. I believe that it is these schools, these "McDojos", that have tainted peoples opinions of the TMA.
I certainly am in favour of cross training, particularly with ground fighting styles like BJJ. However, I believe that the only thing TMA people need to open their eyes too is full contact, and ground fighting, if they dont already do some. In my opinion MMA people also have as much to open their eyes to as TMA people. One of the things that really irritates me about alot of MMA people that Ive talked to is that most of them seem to believe that theyve suddenly found the "right" way of training, and that all the training that has been going on for 1000's of years has been wrong. And it is 1000's of years. Theres written records in China from as long ago as 2000 BC, that tell of fighting styles.

The solo system practice is only a modern concept (150 years at most) along with the notion of belt ranks!

Originally Masters would send students out to train with other styles and instructors so that the student would gain a wider picture in reguards to the art of fighting. So cross-training is acutally more traditional than the usually accepted "TMA" method of today.

dlofnep

Depends on the art. Depends on if you are asking what should it be or what it is.. Once again, the answer depends on the art.

A black belt should be fluent in the art and be able to put it into effect in reality.

pma-ire

dlofnep wrote:

Depends on the art. Depends on if you are asking what should it be or what it is.. Once again, the answer depends on the art.

A black belt should be fluent in the art and be able to put it into effect in reality.

Yes! But should there be a blanket set period for everyone?

Or advancement on merit and ability?

I am talking more about the Karate/TKD/Trad JJ and HKD styled MA's as I don't have experience in grading in the grappling arts such as Judo and BJJ. Which I understand to be more performance based.

dlofnep

Time should not be a factor. If Bob can make it to black belt 2 years before Peter, so then be it. He could be just putting more time and enthusiasm into his training.

kenpo_dave

"Depends on the art. Depends on if you are asking what should it be or what it is.. Once again, the answer depends on the art.

A black belt should be fluent in the art and be able to put it into effect in reality."

dlofnepI agree with you completely. Every style in different. In my Kenpo school it takes people 8 - 10 years to get black belt, the best got it in 7 years and were training 7 days a week running up to the grading. But this is because theres alot to learn. On the other hand, the Kung Fu school down in Newpark doesnt do belts but stripes on the instead, of which theres 10. After about 10 years training the top people in the class had only 4 stripes. The only problem I have with people getting black belts is when they are too young - I believe the minimum age for black belt should be 18. There is a certain level of responsibility that comes wity the grade and I feel that people under 18 just dont have the "life experience" for having a black belt. I personally refuse to call anyone under 18 sensei. In my Kenpo school people who are talented will progress very quickly. We dont do set gradings. The head instructor might decide that hed like to get a few people of the same belt graded at the same time, but in general theres usually only 1 or 2 people per grading, which happens when the head instructor thinks they are ready for it.

pma-ire I know that cross training has been going on for a long time, but there has also been a great reluctance in the past by masters to allow their students to train under other masters.

pma-ire

dlofnep wrote:

Time should not be a factor. If Bob can make it to black belt 2 years before Peter, so then be it. He could be just putting more time and enthusiasm into his training.

Thats it man!

And he should be credited for that!!

pma-ire

kenpo_dave wrote:

pma-ire I know that cross training has been going on for a long time, but there has also been a great reluctance in the past by masters to allow their students to train under other masters.

This has only been the in the modern post-WWII MA era!

Which was driven by race hate and political BS.

kenpo_dave

Actually it was before WWII, at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century. But I agree with dlofnep. If someone has the talent to learn and perfect everything required to pass their black belt grading after 2 years then they should be allowed to grade for their black belts.

pma-ire

kenpo_dave wrote:

Actually it was before WWII, at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century.

Man! Who was this group you are talking about?

As none of the main players of the MA world in the 20th Centuary became popular until after that time?

But I'm sure that there were small pockets of people carrying on like that:rolleyes:

kenpo_dave

Well the source I got this information from is the autobiography of Gichin Funakoshi, the father of modern Karate-Do. Funakoshi died in 1957 and the time he was referring to was more around the start of WWI, if not earlier.

pma-ire

kenpo_dave wrote:

Well the source I got this information from is the autobiography of Gichin Funakoshi, the father of modern Karate-Do. Funakoshi died in 1957 and the time he was referring to was more around the start of WWI, if not earlier.

Funakoshi himself shared a dojo with Kano and both schools crossed over in the early days.

There did seem to be a little break up between Funakoshi's instructor Itosu and fellow students. But the crossing over of styles and techniques was the norm.

I was talking about the creation of world governing bodies of MA which really only started after WWII. Funakoshi's Kara-te was not the same as the Karate of the JKA!!

breadmonkey

There is a certain level of responsibility that comes wity the grade and I feel that people under 18 just dont have the "life experience" for having a black belt.

Dave, why is 18 the magic number here?

pma-ire

breadmonkey wrote:

Dave, why is 18 the magic number here?

Indeed!

In most service charging in society 16 is deemed as an adult!!

I do agree that there should be a re-test for a person who gains a BB under this age.

But what can you say to a teenage BB that can kick your @ss??

"Sorry! I don't respect you cause your a kid!"

fianna.5u.com

Somethign to do with the pigment in the materials I'd expect.

Belts were invented twice, first in the second world war when Japanese martial arts were brutally transformed from individual combative arts into a mechanical system devised to "teach" legions in preparation for war. Hence, robotic kata etc.. Second when asian arts were exprted. Initially the notion of White, Borwn and Black sufficed in Japanese Arts, and Si Hing, Sifu etc in CHinese Arts. Then with the advent of Hawian arts/ kenpo and other more medern made up styles all the colours of the rainbow were intorduced.

In short, any good martial artist I have trained with has no tiem for belts. The very best martial artist transcend the system that contains the belt and the colours ascribed to it.

A quick note, on arriving in America, Bruce Lee said that anyone who trains wrestling and boxing for 1 year would beat any black belt.

Peace

memphis

Sorry to steer backwards a little here, but pma-ire what your saying here mate, is that a student should be allowed grade if he or she feels him/herself to be deemed ready to go forward for the grading?

I agree totally, yes, person should be awarded for such participation, however from experience I can honestly say that my instructor would never let someone go for their grading unless he truely felt they were ready to go for it. To some 3 to 4 months waiting to grade each time may seem like ages, but in reality I think that's time enough. It gives you enough time to devlop the required skills, etc etc, and time to practice, pratice, and practice again.

That said, if someone is training harder than joe soap, and is seriously making the effert should they be allowed grade sooner??? I don't believe so, I think they should just recieve a higher grade, or if training so well that they can be allowed to double grade. which is not uncomman. I myself double graded from white to yellow when I started off. The point I make is if you are genuinely good enough you will grade faster, but personally I believe that the time frame of approx 4 years to become a BB in TKD etc is in place for a reason. This is based on Masters experience of their own development and is the average time required to achieve such a level.

Correct me if wrong.

kenpo_dave

"A quick note, on arriving in America, Bruce Lee said that anyone who trains wrestling and boxing for 1 year would beat any black belt"

Bruce Lee may have been a fantastic martial artist but he was very arrogant and making comments like that means he was ignorant too. He was hardly an authority on EVERY martial art. Perhaps he meant black belts in America at the time. Though I seriously doubt anyone who has only been training in any fighting style for only a year would be able to beat the likes of Ed Parker and his original students, many of whom were infact boxers.

To reply to pma-ire's post, its not that I dont respect 16yos, its just that they simply dont have the physical or mental development required to take on the responsibilities of being a "black belt". I mean theyre still going through puberty. As I said before, I went to a Karate Dojo where people were calling a guy, who could not have been more than 16, Sensei. I mean Ive probably been doing Kenpo for longer than hes been doing Karate, the only thing he can teach me is the differences between his Karate and Kenpo, but absolutely nothing about fighting.

Unpossible

I think if people were graded according to their skill, then they would have more incentive to train harder. In Han Moo Do however we are a little limited as the founder of the art (Young Suk) seems to be the only person able to award belt gradings, so we have to wait for him to visit our part fo finland.

Our teachers generally dont let us grade unless they feel we are ready, but as they said themselves, the first few belts are easy and you just need to turn up & not f**k up badly to get the belt. There is no way of telling how long it will take to get your black belt, once you reach brown belt you have to wait for Young Suk to "call you up" for the exam. Before you are called up you have to attend a few training camps and at least one competition. One brown belt in our club has been waiting a few years for his black belt.

Cabelo

I know my current professor has been practicing for 9 years and he's not yet a mestre. I think the Book puts it an an average of 10 years, dependent on the gang you're with, before you get there. 10 Years is plenty of time to learn I feel, with less I honestly don't think I'd be able to do the things those lads do.

Side note: Bruce Lee took the briefest of looks at Muay Thai before taking what he considered useful and leaving. It has been commented on by people who associated with him that he would often synopsise something very quickly without an in depth understanding. He lived very quickly and if you've read anything he's written (which I have... for my sins) his arrogance shines through, as does his ignorance on some topics. It's a shame but I think he's an overrespected lad.

vasch_ro

fianna.5u.com wrote:

A quick note, on arriving in America, Bruce Lee said that anyone who trains wrestling and boxing for 1 year would beat any black belt.

Peace

on a quick note can you reference that quote please ?:)

Unpossible

his arrogance shines through, as does his ignorance on some topics

on a quick note can you reference that quote please

*me/ eyes can of worms and several people standing over it with tin-openers

pma-ire

fianna.5u.com wrote:

Somethign to do with the pigment in the materials I'd expect.

Belts were invented twice, first in the second world war when Japanese martial arts were brutally transformed from individual combative arts into a mechanical system devised to "teach" legions in preparation for war. Hence, robotic kata etc..

Robotic Kata came from the Japanese not understanding the reasoning behind the kata thought to them by Okinawans. Which were used to teach kids.

fianna.5u.com wrote:

Second when asian arts were exprted. Initially the notion of White, Borwn and Black sufficed in Japanese Arts, and Si Hing, Sifu etc in CHinese Arts. Then with the advent of Hawian arts/ kenpo and other more medern made up styles all the colours of the rainbow were intorduced.

More belts mean more gradings, which mean more money and a longer time to BB.

fianna.5u.com wrote:

In short, any good martial artist I have trained with has no tiem for belts. The very best martial artist transcend the system that contains the belt and the colours ascribed to it.

A quick note, on arriving in America, Bruce Lee said that anyone who trains wrestling and boxing for 1 year would beat any black belt.

Peace

What about a BB that also trains in wrestling and boxing?

pma-ire

memphis wrote:

is that a student should be allowed grade if he or she feels him/herself to be deemed ready to go forward for the grading?

No! I mean..

memphis wrote:

I can honestly say that my instructor would never let someone go for their grading unless he truely felt they were ready to go for it.

Spot on! The instructor would have to still be sure of the level of the student! Not the student requesting rank!! Only bold people do that

memphis wrote:

To some 3 to 4 months waiting to grade each time may seem like ages, but in reality I think that's time enough. It gives you enough time to devlop the required skills, etc etc, and time to practice, pratice, and practice again.

Really? I think sometimes it's too short! Many times people are allowed to grade and pass though they are way off the mark of the grade.

memphis wrote:

That said, if someone is training harder than joe soap, and is seriously making the effert should they be allowed grade sooner??? I don't believe so, I think they should just recieve a higher grade, or if training so well that they can be allowed to double grade. which is not uncomman. I myself double graded from white to yellow when I started off.

So you agree with me???

memphis wrote:

The point I make is if you are genuinely good enough you will grade faster, but personally I believe that the time frame of approx 4 years to become a BB in TKD etc is in place for a reason. This is based on Masters experience of their own development and is the average time required to achieve such a level.

Correct me if wrong.

Alot of the time students are not double graded!! It has become something to be looked down on by many associations (I looked down on it myself at one point). But is a way to address this.

pma-ire

kenpo_dave wrote:

To reply to pma-ire's post, its not that I dont respect 16yos, its just that they simply dont have the physical or mental development required to take on the responsibilities of being a "black belt". I mean theyre still going through puberty. As I said before, I went to a Karate Dojo where people were calling a guy, who could not have been more than 16, Sensei. I mean Ive probably been doing Kenpo for longer than hes been doing Karate, the only thing he can teach me is the differences between his Karate and Kenpo, but absolutely nothing about fighting.

Dave!

I learn from my 5 year old White Belts every class!

I also don't put myself on a higher level than the other member of the school and everyone is on an equal level in my school! If someone has something to show the rest then they should be allowed to demonstrate that. I don't care what grade or age a person is!! I'll learn from everyone I meet or train with.

The Sensei/Sir thinking can be used to suppress people and it's not something I go for myself.

pma-ire

memphis wrote:

but personally I believe that the time frame of approx 4 years to become a BB in TKD etc is in place for a reason. This is based on Masters experience of their own development and is the average time required to achieve such a level.

Correct me if wrong.

The original "Masters" gained grades super fast!

Choi got a 2nd Dan in Shotokan in 3 years!

He got a 6th Dan in Chung Do Kwan after 10years or so!!

So the 4 years time frame is not based on Masters experience

dudara

This has been a great thread to read so far and I'd love to see the discussion continue.

OK, I'm grading for red belt in a week, which leaves me about 1 year to black belt. That's the plan my instructor has for me anyway, and we're working together to that timetable. I've also started as a junior instructor to our kids class (white belts), as he feels that teaching practise will benefit my understanding. And to be honest, I've gained a lot from my club, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to return something.

1. The question of age is interesting. I do personally feel that some kids are awarded black belts at too young an age. I've seen 12 and under black belts who really did understand what they were doing. Whatever other posters might think about the TKD "sine wave" theory, a practicioner [sic] should at least be able to explain it. These kids sometimes don't know what certain blocks are for and so on. They lack fundamentals, purely because of their age. I suspect that they get black belt because they've put in circa 4 years of training and they've just worked theor way up through the ranks.

2. I agree with Memphis' point concerning your instructor's assessment of your readiness for grading. In my case, I sometimes train in our partner clubs, and I've been exposed to different instructors. They then give feedback on my progress to my main instructor. Lately, that feedback has been very positive as I've been working hard for red belt, trying to step up my game. But all that work wouldn't matter, if my instructor didn't feel I was able. When I grade I'll know that I'll be ready.

3. I think that balck belt, reagardless of your art, should indicate that you understand it, to some degree, and more importantly, that you're able to pass it on to more junior trainees.

memphis

pma-ire wrote:

So you agree with me???

Kinda contradict myself in a few places above don't I?

What I mean is that persons should only be allowed grade when their instructor feels they are deemed ready to grade, and not when they request a grading themselves.... thats just cockiness.... and bold!!!

However, persons should be awarded for their participation, and standard of training. Anyway, gotta get back to my tutorial work. Hope that clears things up though.

dlofnep

vasch_ro wrote:

on a quick note can you reference that quote please ?:)

I've heard it before also. Can't remember the source.

kenpo_dave

Firstly, someone who has been only training in wrestling and boxing for a year might be a able to beat any black belt from a 'McDojo' but not from a Dojo that teach proper training. As I said Bruce Lee was arrogant.

pma-ire, I dont really like the Sensei/Sifu thing either. I think its been abused to hell. But if an instructor was truely a mentor to me , and it was a Japanese style, then I would call him sensei.

And as for 12yo black belts, thats just rediculous! A black belt should not only be able to demonstrate their style with the speed, accuracy and power required for their grade, but they also have to be able to actually use it in the situation it was designed for. If its a 'junior black belt', fine. But they should still have to go through most of the senior grades to get 'senior black belt'. In my opinion only 'McDojos' give black belts to children that young.

Cake Fiend

Most black belts I've seen were made of cotton...

But seriously folks, in my opinion, technical skill is paramount in deciding the grade of a 'traditional' martial artist. Most arts that use black belts are not just about fisticuffs - they're about a very specific method of fighting, using very specific techniques. If an important part of holding a black belt was being a good fighter, the arts wouldn't be so specific. Any fighting system that really is about all-round reality-based fighting shouldn't need belts IMO. Ideally, of course, you'll learn some useful fighting skills, but you can't expect a five-foot-two female black belt to be going around kicking burly muggers' teeth in.

I gather part of the reason that people advance quite quickly in Asia (particularly Japan) is because they tend to train harder and more often than in your average Dublin training hall. When I trained in Japan, most of the white belts were training two hours a day, five or six days a week. Someone once said that if you took longer than two years to get your shodan that you must be dumb, crippled or a foreignor!

kenpo_dave wrote:

I feel that people under 18 just dont have the "life experience" for having a black belt. I personally refuse to call anyone under 18 sensei.

This is hilarious I must go and tell my instructor that his future black belts must travel the world, attend college, start a family, learn a foreign language, pick up some cookery skills and further their general knowlege before he can award them a dan grade. And I wouldn't call anyone who wasn't an instructor sensei, and I don't think someone automatically becomes an instructor when they get a black belt.

kenpo_dave wrote:

but they also have to be able to actually use it in the situation it was designed for.

What situation is this? Fighting other 12-year olds? In this case, I think they'll do fine. I know a 12-year-old black belt who gets a lot of disrespect from the older guys, simply because he holds a black belt at his age. If you watched him for thirty seconds, you'd see that he's earned it - this kid has more skill than most adult shodans I've seen, and I can guarantee you he's part of no McDojo. So why should he be held back just because some people are going to be jealous? Why mess around with "junior" and "senior" belts? What's the point? If someone has the skill of a black belt, regardless of age, they should be awarded the grade. Fu<k the begrudgers.

Also, I don't know many 18-year-olds that I'd honestly describe as adults, but that's another argument.

Clive

Man, a lot of stringent requirements for black belt here - makes me glad I'm still a white belt!

It amuses me that Mary Robinson outranks most people here though.

kenpo_dave

Why does that amuse you Clive?

Clive

Because I'm a small man in many ways, a small petty man.

Cake Fiend

Clive wrote:

It amuses me that Mary Robinson outranks most people here though.

I'd say she'd knock the snot out of that McAleese wan...

kenpo_dave

Sico, is this 12yo addressed as Sensei? And if so, can you tell me what it is exactly that this 12yo would be able to teach an adult about fighting or the morals of martial arts? What if the style trains full contact or does conditioning comparable to Muay Thai or Kyokushin, and there are plenty of styles that do.
I know that fighting is only one part of martial arts. In my opinion, someone who trains in martial arts but cant generate sufficient power to make their skills effective, which a 12yo cant, or doesnt have the life experience to fully understand the morals and ethics of their style, then they should not have a rank that has the responsibilities of teaching lower grades, which what black belt has.

"What situation is this? Fighting other 12-year olds? In this case, I think they'll do fine"
They will do fine, but a 12yo isnt much of a threat, even to other 12yos.

I stick by the statement I made earlier - In my opinion only McDojos give black belts to kids. And just because the school is somewhere in Asia it doesnt mean its not a McDojo.

In my Dojos parent Dojo in Germany, where I will eventually have to grade, the people going for black belt have to do 30x 2 min rounds of bare knuckle, full contact all-round fighting. The only guards they can wear is head gear, mouth guard and a cup is optional. The governments of both Japan and China ruined their martial arts systems in the attempt to popularise them.

pma-ire

kenpo_dave wrote:

Firstly, someone who has been only training in wrestling and boxing for a year might be a able to beat any black belt from a 'McDojo' but not from a Dojo that teach proper training. As I said Bruce Lee was arrogant.

pma-ire, I dont really like the Sensei/Sifu thing either. I think its been abused to hell. But if an instructor was truely a mentor to me , and it was a Japanese style, then I would call him sensei.

And as for 12yo black belts, thats just rediculous! A black belt should not only be able to demonstrate their style with the speed, accuracy and power required for their grade, but they also have to be able to actually use it in the situation it was designed for. If its a 'junior black belt', fine. But they should still have to go through most of the senior grades to get 'senior black belt'. In my opinion only 'McDojos' give black belts to children that young.

Very established associations race to have the youngest BB in the world!!

they use it as a selling point to get in the waves of kids that make parents spend loadsa money!!

kenpo_dave

pma-ire, I would class these as McDojos. People more interested in making money than teaching realistic martial arts.

pma-ire

memphis wrote:

Kinda contradict myself in a few places above don't I?

What I mean is that persons should only be allowed grade when their instructor feels they are deemed ready to grade, and not when they request a grading themselves.... thats just cockiness.... and bold!!!

However, persons should be awarded for their participation, and standard of training. Anyway, gotta get back to my tutorial work. Hope that clears things up though.

So you agree with me!!

Cake Fiend

kenpo_dave wrote:

Sico, is this 12yo addressed as Sensei?

No, of course not, he's not an instructor. But he certainly could teach someone karate, because he understands the underlying concepts, which is why he holds a black belt. Do you think you know better than his instructor whether or not he should be allowed a dan grade? If he were 18 instead of 12, how would this automatically make the grade more valid? Would he suddenly have more skill and understanding of karate if he were six years older? Is he any less skillful because he can't beat up a grown man?

I can personally vouch for this boy's skill, and the general quality of his dojo-mates. His instructor, who I meet regularly, holds a high rank, an influential and respected position in our organization and is very serious about his karate. He wouldn't have awarded a grade if the holder didn't earn it.


As a seperate issue: regarding morals, I don't think it's the place of a martial arts instructor to try to teach morals to grown-ups. Adults should already be responsible enough to use their skills appropriately. If they're not, I don't think chanting the Dojo Kun or whatever is going to change them.

dlofnep

When we were training over in England, the kid of the people we were staying with was a 2nd degree black belt in traditional jiu-jitsu. He must of been 11 or 12 at most. Made me chuckle. I don't think anyone at that age should have a black belt.

memphis

Yes paul, I agree with ya... I guess!!!

Anyway, an interesting point has been brought to the fore here. What are peoples opinions on becoming a black belt at such a young age.

The majority of students in my club are around 8-10 years old, so the most of em will reach a black belt at about 12-14. I personally think this is an ideal age. The kids will be just starting secondary school, will be a BB, have that sense of direction, integrety, and respect, and of course be able to defend themselves from bullies etc. Now while I feel at that age they may not be as phyically strong as say a senior BB, but they will have the same knowledge, and have learnt all the required concepts needed to be a BB, the strenght is something then can work on as they mature... yes or no???

What are peoples opinion on this??

Either a blackbelt reflects a certain skill level or it doesn't. Age shouldnt have anything to do with it tbh.

If some 7 year old can tap JK day in day out then I'd have real trouble not seeing them as a brown belt.

Otherwise though I think people, and particularily Memphis, are attaching far too much significance to the notion of a "blackbelt". Its not a reflection of character in the same way that a university degree isnt. Its a reflection that a certain person passed an arbitrary examination in a particular martial art.

Black belt, Schmack belt

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Either a blackbelt reflects a certain skill level or it doesn't. Age shouldnt have anything to do with it tbh.

I agree! But sometimes you do have to allow for a level of physical impeedments that if over comed should lead to a BB.

columok wrote:

If some 7 year old can tap JK day in day out then I'd have real trouble not seeing them as a brown belt.

Exactly

columok wrote:

Otherwise though I think people, and particularily Memphis, are attaching far too much significance to the notion of a "blackbelt". Its not a reflection of character in the same way that a university degree isnt. Its a reflection that a certain person passed an arbitrary examination in a particular martial art.

A university degree is also only any good to you if it's used in the industry or area it was aim at!

A person with a degree in Computers working on a building site can't really claim any advantage over the rest of the lads on the site that just dropped out and done a trade now can they?? (Anyway! I thought we banned compairing MA's to other things on this board??)

columok wrote:

Black belt, Schmack belt

Indeed! But in the world of Martial Arts a BB gives you a level of respect (due or not) from other Martial Artists. Rank makes people listen to what you are saying! So it can be used to change points of view and training methods.

This is also the same for a fighters win list! But it's harder to get one side that don't see a link the other side of the fence to listen when you don't have a common point of reference.

memphis

What Paul just said!!! My sentiment exactly.

Yes indeed, what advantage is a Uni degree in Computing to Joe Soap if he's gonna spend his days flipping burgers???

A Black Belt is only useful to a person (regardless of age) if they are willing and able to use it correctly, and in the right scenario. To be far I think its fascinating to see youngsters become black belts at such an age as say 12-14. Its really a great achievement in itself.