How have people come to believe what they believe?

Excelsior

There are some very good conversations on the Christianity forum here but I would love to know how various people have reached the points they are at. Both the Christians and the skeptics, how have people come to the conclusions (or lack thereof) which they hold?

Sapien

Excelsior wrote:

There are some very good conversations on the Christianity forum here but I would love to know how various people have reached the points they are at. Both the Christians and the skeptics, how have people come to the conclusions (or lack thereof) which they hold?

In my teens I went through a period of complete questioning. Spurred on by a growing dissatisfaction with my inherited beliefs, and drawn towards more saturnine modes of thought, I decided to build my intellect anew and ab ovo. I systematically disestablished whatever preconceptions I had previously harboured and dissolved my faith in spiritual, social and moral norms.

And then, anything that came my way, any idea, opinion or posited fact, I thought about it.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Well I used to (and still do) worship this hardcore punk band called Thrice. So the lyrics seemed quite interesting, and it turned out that their lyricist was heavily influenced by this chap called "C.S. Lewis". They had songs titled "That Hideous Strength" and "The Abolition Of Man". So I decided to give him a look.
I had been brought up Catholic, but had recently decided not to go to mass anymore, because I basically knew I had no real belief (nor disbelief, for that matter) in God, and because some of the things about the mass seemed idiotic to me (i.e. the mindless recitations of hymns, prayers, etc).
So here I was, basically a non-believer, and first of all I read Lewis' cosmic trilogy, which were probably quite helpful with their allegory and whatnot in opening my mind up to a wholly new concept of god. Then I picked up "Mere Christianity", and all that 'Law of Human Nature' stuff really persuaded me.
I still don't know what denomination I believe to be most true yet though, I don't think I'll ever be Catholic again, though I practice as one for the timebeing. It's conservative-ness appeals to me, but, then again, it's not really about what "appeals" to one, is it?
So, yeah, in a roundabout way, I owe my new-found belief to the vocalist in a Orange County Hardcore quartet and to a deceased writer from Belfast. They've done a whole lot more for my faith than any member of the clergy ever did, anyway.

robindch

Having been fed much tosh when young, I went through something similar to, but probably less deliberate than, Sapien's rebirth. Midwives to this were various wiser friends who berated me for holding unsustainable views, all of which were ultimately scuppered by their works, and those of Gibbon, Dawkins, Hofstadter, Smullyan, Ignatieff, Sagan, Plato, Khayyam, Mencken and many others.

But as for conclusions? Well, no final ones -- here's my phrasing of it from the skeptics forum:

What does it mean to be a skeptic? In short, it’s a way of looking at the claims that people make, by asking the 'how' questions and the 'why' questions, and not accepting the claims as valid until some supporting evidence appears and has been judged. Or, even briefer, when someone makes an extraordinary claim, the skeptic says “Ok, that’s interesting – now why should I believe you?” And that’s about it.

Unlike most philosophies, skepticism doesn’t tell you what to think, rather, it helps you with thinking itself. And that’s why a skeptic isn't required to hold any particular position on any controversial topic (though many do, since reliable evidence frequently points in one direction only). Instead, skepticism is a process designed to weed out faulty ideas, so that when it’s properly applied, the skeptic will arrive at a way of looking at the world which is based upon facts and guided by reason, and not by unfounded hopes or beliefs.

Again, unlike most philosophies, because of its evidence-based approach, skepticism doesn’t deal in absolute truths or absolute conclusions, because the evidence which supports the current conclusion might turn out to be wrong, and need to be revised, or thrown away, when some new and conflicting, but more reliable, piece of evidence appears. This means that skepticism deals in provisional conclusions, supported by provisionally-agreed facts.

Since skeptics tend to ask questions, they can come across in conversation as picky, or even worse, needlessly argumentative. This is unfortunate, because it leaves many with an impression of skepticism as something negative or disapproving, when it's quite the opposite: a process of learning how to ask the right questions, and how to interpret the answers given (if any), and along the way, probably losing many of the comforting, but faulty, beliefs of childhood.

In Ireland, as elsewhere, skeptics are a small, but growing and increasingly-coordinated, movement which hopes to counterbalance the spread of untenable, or anti-social, beliefs, many of which can harm, or take advantage of, the unwary or the trusting. These stretch from the mostly benign absurdity of astrology and the lucrative, tax-free and politically dominant, fundamentalist religious industries currently rampant in the USA, to the potentially life-threatening decisions made by untrained people in the alternative medicine business. Skepticism offers a way to see through these, and other, artful fantasies and view the world as it really is, not as it we'd like it to be, or other people would like us to think that it is.

...which is about as succinct as I can make it.

AARRRGH

Excelsior wrote:

There are some very good conversations on the Christianity forum here but I would love to know how various people have reached the points they are at. Both the Christians and the skeptics, how have people come to the conclusions (or lack thereof) which they hold?

IMO -

It's either beaten into them
Or there is something lacking in their lives

I don't believe a perfectly mentally healthy person would believe any of this religion nonsense.

No proof = It's bull****. How can we possibly have no proof after a few thousand years. It makes no sense.

Asiaprod

For me, the fist impressionable years of my life (9 to 17) were spent in the pleasant company of a Christian Brothers boarding school. Religion was compulsory. It permeated every living moment of my day. I was beaten for not being able to recite my catechism. I was taught to live in fear of God. I was not allowed to question, as questioning was a bad thing. It showed a lack of faith. I was to accept things as an act of faith--the solemn duty of every good catholic. I was turned against anyone who followed a different religion, especially those Black-hearted Proddies.:eek:

For myself, I could never reconcile how these so-called devote CBs could act in the way they did, yet insist I act in a completely different manner, turning the other cheek (excuse the pun ). I used to have to get up for mass every day at 6am and to be honest the only enjoyment I ever got was reading the Gospel stories while the priest droned on in Latin, which I could not even understand. I had tremendous difficulty coming to terms with the concept of Confession, which seemed to me to in no way recompense those I had sinned against. I just walked out cured provided I did my 5 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Marys. Every thing just seemed to be an excuse to keep me in the flock.
I discovered Buddhism in Japan, and since it is a philosophy and not a religion, felt a really strong connection to it. In particular to the concept of Karma and Cause and Effect. It seemed to put me firmly in control of my own life, which was something Catholicism never ever did. I am a humanist and have no problem with others and their beliefs.
I live by a creed that say " I respect the right of every one to follow their own belief, an therefor, in respect to them, I also respect their beliefs"
Hey, it works for me.:)

smidgy

The main reasons I believe in Jesus is because of the content of what he says, the truth in it and its application to the world which if applied today would have massively beneficial consequences.

dublindude wrote:

I don't believe a perfectly mentally healthy person would believe any of this religion nonsense.

No proof = It's bull****. How can we possibly have no proof after a few thousand years. It makes no sense.

If you look at the world (since the world is where people like to look these days) there is absolutely no empirical evidence to prove that god does not exist. So believers and non believers are both making their decisions without evidence!!!:eek:

How can we possibly have no proof that God does no exist after 2000 years. . It makes no sense.

junkyard

I believe in God but i'm not so sure that we are as important to God as we would like to think we are, i.e. cat's, dog's, fish and all other living creatures have an equal part to play. I think the humanbeing's are so vain that being " children of God" is automatically where we place ourselves. I think being "all Gods creatures" is a more suitable place to be. I was raised a Catholic and respect my parents views as that's what they believed in but I think times have changed and we are not as God fearing as previous generations, wheather or not that's a good thing it's had to say when you see what's going on in the world today. I think all we can do is our best and not go out of our way to make life a misery for anyone or anything else. The conclusion of my current belief's come's from many year's of reading and discussing religion in general and seeing what goes on all around the world. I wouldn't be inclined to believe every thing we're told or read in the newspapers.

robindch

> The main reasons I believe in Jesus is because of the content
> of what he says, the truth in it and its application to the world
> which if applied today would have massively beneficial
> consequences.

The gospels do have a few hints towards leading a non-confrontational life -- turn the other cheek and all that -- but frankly, most of it is the kind of stuff that most people learn by their early teens anyway.

What stuff exactly do you believe would have "massively beneficial consequences" if everybody did it?

Charis

I grew up in a Christian family. My organized church experience was varied with people of all different faiths. I had freedom to ask and learn about many of the Christian faiths as well as to observe and learn about other faiths and belief systems. As a result I had many questions sometimes about the Bible, God or how a specific group practiced their beliefs. Questions and learning where encouraged. When my parents couldn't answer a question they told me that God could and so I was encouraged to ask Him directly. I have had my times of doubt but He has always been there for me. Even though I have had some pretty bad things happen God has brought good out of those situations. During my darkest hours of life God watched over me. If it wasn't for Jesus I wouldn't be here. There are some things in my life that are nearly impossible to explain but everyday I touch my daughter and I can't deny her existance.

For me my faith is lived out by following Jesus to the best of my ability through His strength. This affects every aspect of my life. I am not perfect, far from it, but if there was not Jesus for me life has no purpose.

I really appreciate hearing everyone's views, good thread!:)

Time Magazine

My big brother's a big rotten Prod and thus scared me to Islam.

See ya Sunday, Excelsior .

Sapien

smidgy wrote:

If you look at the world (since the world is where people like to look these days) there is absolutely no empirical evidence to prove that god does not exist. So believers and non believers are both making their decisions without evidence!!!:eek:

How can we possibly have no proof that God does no exist after 2000 years. . It makes no sense.

One cannot prove a negative.

One cannot prove a negative.

One cannot prove a negative.

One. Cannot. Prove. A. Negative.

Time Magazine

Sapien wrote:

One cannot prove a negative.

One cannot prove a negative.

One cannot prove a negative.

One. Cannot. Prove. A. Negative.

The basic tenet of Christianity is faith.

Assumption: God exists, and Christianity is right.
Result: God does not prove himself; no empirical proof of existence.

Assumption: God does not exist.
Result: No proof of existence.

Conclusion: You cannot prove Christianity.

Christianity, by its very principle, cannot be proven. I acknowledge the argument "Well that's convenient". However I expect of those who assert such arguments to respect the argument of "No it's not." . I'd much rather have scientific proof of the resurrection of Christ but I appreciate that it's anathema and essentially exclusive to Christianity.

Dublindude wrote:

It's either beaten into them
Or there is something lacking in their lives

Are you honestly saying that one of these, as a pre-requisite for me believing in God, is true for me:
i) I am not capable of logical coherent thought/I do not possess the ability to discern what is forced upon me from what I believe myself
ii) The only reason that I believe in a Higher Body (and commit myself to a life severely restricted by rules and boundaries when I have no proof other than my gut instinct that what I am doing is right and true and condemn myself daily for failing to abide by these rules) is because there's something lacking in my life?

Because I'd find that kind of offensive.

Are you saying that those two catchall, (frankly ignorant) theses apply to each and every person who believe in something beyond the black and white? All ~4 billion of us? Well fair play!

I'm going to provide you with two antitheses to your theses. Firstly, it excludes the possibility of somebody being brought up in a religious house and actually believing themselves - which I for one consider a little bit simplistic given that there are 4 billion people you're lassoing in this. Secondly, in my experience, many people refuse to believe in God because of something lacking in their lives. Moreso than those who believe for said reason.

bmoferrall

As a precocious, all-wise, all-knowing infant, I dragged my parents kicking and screaming to the nearest church, whereupon a priest sprinkled my hairless head with holy water, thus initiating me into membership of God's Universal Church.
Through all the drudgery of mass, confession, confirmation, decades of the rosary, a belief in a God survived.
Equipped with a competent knowledge of the bible, it is with dismay and disbelief that I now read the Catholic catechism, a book that claims to represent God and his Word.
Where did it all come from? Tradition? From the minds of men that instigated the crusades?
Is it any wonder that the Catholic Church is shrouded in spiritual darkness?
A baptist friend spent seven years training to be a Christian Brother. He never once encountered the bible during that period.

"Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God"
I will happily attend any church that has the faith and humility to accept the Bible as the divine-inspired Word of God, as Paul claims. I believe that is the foundation of any fruitful fellowship.
Does any human have the authority to alter, add to, subtract from the words of this book?
Too complex to understand? Afraid of misinterpretation?
"...The Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things..."

I too am one of those 'crazy fundies' that believes in the Genesis account of creation (yes, I've read that thread).
I find the argument that it is merely allegory, or poetry, unconvincing.
I find it hard to believe that a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator of the universe, would choose the messy, indirect, convoluted path of evolution to create man 'in his own image'.
I don't believe I evolved from an ape. I don't believe we evolved, over eons, from some 'primordial soup'.

Does it matter whether you believe we were created or evolved?
Does it matter if you believe that Mary is co-redemptress with Christ?
Does it matter if you believe you can earn salvation through your own efforts?
Does it matter if you believe a man can be infallible?
Does it matter if you believe in a continuing priesthood?
Can we continue to hold such beliefs and still be saved through repentance and faith in Christ?

smidgy

What stuff exactly do you believe would have "massively beneficial consequences" if everybody did it?

Well if we loved God and loved our neighbour that would go a heck of a long way ... yeah?

One cannot prove a negative.

One cannot prove a negative.

One cannot prove a negative.

One. Cannot. Prove. A. Negative.

I love when people start talking about proof and religion ... it makes me laugh

robindch

> [smidgy] Well if we loved God and loved our neighbour that would
> go a heck of a long way ... yeah?

"be nice to people" is a good social rule, but I think it's something that most people probably manage to learn on their own. Doesn't it seem (a) a bit basic and (b) ignored anyway in the hundreds of religious wars fought between different brands of christianity? Doesn't that suggest that christians are better at preaching than practicing?

> [bmoferrall] I don't believe I evolved from an ape.

We didn't -- apes and ourselves have a common ancestor. If you're going to publicly reject the findings of modern biology, then do make sure that you're actually rejecting the right thing!

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC150.html

Excelsior

Bmofarrell- just a note: While you are welcome to come and post your opinions on this board, please do be sensitive to the fact that this is not a denominational forum but a broad arena for Christians of all shades and interested non-Christians to discuss and debate. Your post expressed anger at the Catholic Church which was a legitimate expression of your experience but take care to phrase posts such that they respect Christians outside of your tradition.

For AngryBanana, Dietrich Bonhoeffer once wrote that a God who allowed himself to be proven would be nothing more than an idol.

The resurrection is not an Empirically testable event but it is a historical event for which evidence and argument exists. AB is exactly right when he draws out the irrelevancy of asking for scientific proof but that isn't to say no proof exists.

Son Goku

This might sound really boring, but I came to the beliefs I have because of my parents.

My mother and father were neither religious, atheist nor agnostic.
They didn't care about it much, it was something other people did.
To them life was getting a job and making sure your family was okay and being happy.

So I grew up pretty much the same, I don't believe in God nor do I not believe in God, I just don't care.
Like my parents, religion and atheism both seem to me as something other people do.

robindch

> Like my parents, religion and atheism both seem to me
> as something other people do.

Likewise (at least, now) though I can't say that I've met more than a handful atheists and none of them ever did anything particularly atheistic -- how do you *do* something atheistic anyway? Get up on sunday morning and ostentatiously go for a cup of coffee and flick throuh the newspapers at half ten? Suggestions welcome!

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

Suggestions welcome!

Hows about, a sign in your hallway that says

"This house is not blessed by any entity or deity, you enter at your own risk.":D

bubonicus

I was brought up a catholic in the eyes of the community but my parents where far from holding any faith in the catholic church. So I was never forced to go to mass on Sunday etc... They alway's let me make my own decisions on what or what not to believe.

Well after a journey of self discovery and questioning also going on the buddist path for a while. I have decided that I don't believe in anything. I don't need too. I have ideas about our origins and who we are in relation to the universe that fits in with the teachings of buddha and the beliefs of Hinduism. But I choose not to have a belief system.

Asiaprod

bubonicus wrote:

I have ideas about our origins and who we are in relation to the universe that fits in with the teachings of buddha and the beliefs of Hinduism. But I choose not to have a belief system.

Interesting, do share some of those thoughts with us:)

bubonicus

Hi Asiaprod.

The Christianity forum is probably not the right place for that topic. The Buddhism forum would be better. Also why is there no general religion discussion forum. Not everybody fits into the 6 listed. Religion in it self is up for discussion not just it's parts.

Asiaprod

bubonicus wrote:

Hi Asiaprod.

The Christianity forum is probably not the right place for that topic. The Buddhism forum would be better.

Go ahead and post there, not much happening there, and PM me when you have. I am interested to hear your findings.

Also why is there no general religion discussion forum. Not everybody fits into the 6 listed. Religion in it self is up for discussion not just it's parts.

You have no idea how hard it is to start a new forum. :rolleyes:

Dades

I was raised a Catholic and enjoyed my Catholic school education. I think I was always an atheist just too busy or apathetic in my teens to give it much thought. I've been to Medjugorje and though it was an amazing place, I felt the aura came from the people and not the sky.

One turning point I do remember seeing was a story at Christmas years ago where a little girl died on Christmas eve from electroction by fairy lights. I remember thinking - no god could or should let that happen.

I may wake up agnostic one morning, but I doubt I'll ever believe a benevolent god could run a world like this one.

hairyheretic

I was probably in my early 20s when I started to drift away from catholicism. I remember being in church one Sunday, and the thought struck me. What am I doing here? I was reciting the words of the prayers on autopilot .. my mind wasn't there.

Looking at myself, I realised that I wasn't getting anything from the church. No real sense of belonging, no feeling of peace .. no spiritual connection. As time went on, those feelings only intensified.

Anyway, while I was up in Belfast, after uni, that was when I finally broke with it entirely. There were a number of things that were very important to me then .. about three, in a two month period. I prayed for help with them, and in each case, the situation worsened quite a lot.

I started idly looking into other things. Zen buddhism interested me, but
I never got that far into investigating it (still reading through Journey to the West though). I think at the time I was happy enough to have no religion.

A friend of mine did a tarot reading for me online. I was very impressed with how accurate it was. I decided I'd like to look into that myself. I went along to a shop I was told carried tarot cards, browsed their stock, but didn't really see anything that appealed. I was told there was more coming in the following weekend, so I figured I'd come back then. I came back, looked around, again found nothing. Right at the back, behind the tarot cards, I came across a book and set of runes, and something in me just said "Yes."

When I moved to Dublin, I found a local esoteric crowd that met once a month, talked about various topics. I overheard several of them one night discussing what beliefs could be attributed to the various star trek races (I picked up the word Klingon and that caught my attention). They associated that with Asatru, so being the geek I am, I started looking it up online soon after.

From my research into the various Gods and Goddesses, it was Tyr that I felt closest to .. my own character traits reflected those He showed. When a Dutch asatruar came over to visit I caught up with him for a pint, and one of the first things he said to me is "The one handed man is watching you." At that I felt a sense of acknowledgement.

In short, a lot of things came together for me when I came to Dublin. It just seemed that one thing after another was bringing me to Tyr. If I was chosen, or found it myself, I don't really know.

All I know is that it feels right to me. And thats what your spirituality should be .. right.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Angry Banana wrote:

Secondly, in my experience, many people refuse to believe in God because of something lacking in their lives. Moreso than those who believe for said reason.

Very true. Fair play, this needed to be said and it's of all the more value coming from an atheist.
You truly are an angry banana...

"What about Jesus? He's like 12 leprechauns!"
"Yeah, but a lot harder to catch..."

solas

Also why is there no general religion discussion forum. Not everybody fits into the 6 listed. Religion in it self is up for discussion not just it's parts.

like a spirituality forum?

Time Magazine

scouser.tommy wrote:

Very true. Fair play, this needed to be said and it's of all the more value coming from an atheist.
You truly are an angry banana...

Ah Jaysis (no pun intended) Ronan, what made you think I was an atheist?

And 5:56am?!

</off-topic>

pbsuxok1znja4r

Angry Banana wrote:

Ah Jaysis (no pun intended) Ronan, what made you think I was an atheist?

And 5:56am?!

</off-topic>

Hahaha I don't suppose you'd believe me if I told you I got up early? :v:

Hmmm I'd just assumed from what you said...so you're not an atheist? :eek:
My bad. :cool:

JustHalf

Excelsior kept hassling me until I became a Christian. True story. At least, fairly true.

Vangelis

My story consists of three stages.

1st: Childhood faith, brought to Sunday school by mom every week but not forced to, curious about the big questions and I admired Jesus and loved the stories from the Bible. As I joined a local congregation I felt very excluded and pressurised to take part in everything and I quit eventually.

2nd: Break-up in early youth with Christianity, but not because of congregation pressure. I read science and learned about evolution and became eventually a convert. Had three tough years of ups and downs, striving to believe anything untill...

3rd and present stage: I came in touch with an Orthodox monk who prayed for me and inspired me to return to my faith. I'm still suspicious towards church authorities and manipulation, but I have grown tremendously and pray that God will continue to change me.

Asiaprod, that was a horrible story. I feel ashamed at Catholicism when I hear of such things. You were beaten? That's as far away from Christianity in practise as can be! No wonder you were put off.

hairyheretic wrote:

..Asatru...

Weehoooo! Norse mythology! I admit it's fascinating, but that's because it belongs to my country.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Vangelis wrote:

My story consists of three stages.

1st: Childhood faith, brought to Sunday school by mom every week but not forced to, curious about the big questions and I admired Jesus and loved the stories from the Bible. As I joined a local congregation I felt very excluded and pressurised to take part in everything and I quit eventually.

2nd: Break-up in early youth with Christianity, but not because of congregation pressure. I read science and learned about evolution and became eventually a convert. Had three tough years of ups and downs, striving to believe anything untill...

3rd and present stage: I came in touch with an Orthodox monk who prayed for me and inspired me to return to my faith. I'm still suspicious towards church authorities and manipulation, but I have grown tremendously and pray that God will continue to change me.

Just wondering, what was it that re-convinced you, intellectually, of the existence of God?

Vangelis

scouser.tommy wrote:

Just wondering, what was it that re-convinced you, intellectually, of the existence of God?

My human logic is not capable of understanding God.
It was my spirit that was re-convinced.

Sounds like a cliché? Well, it's true.

Dave!

I'm currently agnostic, with a leaning towards atheism. I was brought up somewhat Catholic -- went to a Catholic school, was made go to church every Sunday, was baptised, confirmed, etc. -- although my parents aren't (at least ostensibly) particularly religious.

I never really questioned any of the stuff I was taught in primary school, or in church, until I was maybe 15 (I'm 18 now), when I stopped going to mass. I've been questioning alot of it for the past 3/4 years, though, and it's awfully frustrating to not know how it all started.

Last year I was a hardened Atheist, and I thought that it was too simple to say "I don't understand where everything came from, so let's just say god did it", but now I'm more of the mind that, at some point something had to come from nothing -- and I can't prove how. It's this 'little' thing that's causing me trouble... The universe can't have just "created" itself... so some sort of divine being must have done it. But when I think of that, I think that that's just a ridiculous cop-out; we don't understand something, so it's "divine" -- just like years ago, the sun, the moon, nothing was explained, so people just worshipped them. It seems like that's what we're continuing to do... but we've got too much scientific research and too much advancement to have this stupid, ignorant view.

I'm leaning towards Atheism rather than Christianity because of this reason. We've explained so much in the universe that we should be able to step back and say "This is pretty hard to explain -- but that doesn't mean that it can't be done." I can just acknowledge that we don't understand it, we don't know where the universe came from, and we may never know. But only because it's difficult. I'm sure people thought that they'd never know what the sun is, what thunder is, where rain comes from, etc.... and then a few centuries later, it's explained, and it makes sense. The explaination is there, we just haven't uncovered it yet.

I'm also closer to Atheism because the world seems to make more sense now... It all fits together, it's natural, evolution, harmony, all of that... You can explain alot of the things in the world, and I find it more convincing that we look like we do out of necessity rather than because god made us this way. It's too simple... and it's a cop-out.

As well as that, to me it seems to make sense that people only believe in religion because they need to. The afterlife... when we die, we like to know that we're going somewhere, that it doesn't just end. Blah.

On top of this, I don't believe fully in any god because I CAN'T! Even if I wanted to, I couldn't just disregard everything I know or think, and fully immerse myself in the belief that there's some sort of god look at everything we do. My brain just can't grasp that concept, and rejects it. I couldn't live in that ignorance, and I don't know how someone like a priest can do it. I find it impossible.

I hope you can all sense my frustration... my typing is kinda disjointed because there's so much sh*t going on in my head, and it's driving me mad!

I can't remember who said this, some scientist I was reading about in the Atheism forum I think... actually it was his wife said it about him... well, it sums me up pretty well:

I don't want to believe -- I want to know

{sorry if I offended anyone with my post, it was pretty much just thinking out loud}

bmoferrall

DaveMcG wrote:

I never really questioned any of the stuff I was taught in primary school, or in church, until I was maybe 15 (I'm 18 now), when I stopped going to mass. I've been questioning alot of it for the past 3/4 years, though...

A very normal and very healthy reaction I would say. If a belief is imposed, or simply inherited, rather than coming from a deep conviction within, it probably won't last - one of the reasons why I feel infant Baptism is pointless, not to mention biblically unsupported.
A lot of the beliefs that were passed to me from my parents just 'felt' wrong at the time. When I later had the opportunity to explore and study the claimed source of those beliefs, namely the Bible, I knew why they felt wrong. It was clear that many of those beliefs had a human, rather than divine, origin.

Last year I was a hardened Atheist, and I thought that it was too simple to say "I don't understand where everything came from, so let's just say god did it" but now I'm more of the mind that, at some point something had to come from nothing -- and I can't prove how. It's this 'little' thing that's causing me trouble...
On top of this, I don't believe fully in any god because I CAN'T! Even if I wanted to, I couldn't just disregard everything I know or think, and fully immerse myself in the belief that there's some sort of god look at everything we do. My brain just can't grasp that concept, and rejects it.

Speaking personally, I didn't begin exploring Christianity because I needed to find an explanation for how the universe started; nor was it to seek answers to questions that Science couldn't yet answer.
I kind of put the Creation issue to the back of my mind, and just dived into what I surmised was the 'shallow' end of the Bible, the Gospels. I figured I might as well get it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
I found myself immediately drawn to the person Jesus. He had all the traits of people I most admire, and then some. That the great Saviour, the Messiah, would so wrongfoot the expectant Israelites by donning the garb of a lowly servant, rather than the full regalia of their King of the Jews, was hugely compelling and attractive to me.
The initial impact he had on me would resonate for years. I found myself 'going back to the well' on a regular basis. I can confidently say, after some years of experience, that the words in this book are true. I believe they must be divine-inspired.

The universe can't have just "created" itself... so some sort of divine being must have done it. But when I think of that, I think that that's just a ridiculous cop-out; we don't understand something, so it's "divine" -- just like years ago, the sun, the moon, nothing was explained, so people just worshipped them. It seems like that's what we're continuing to do... but we've got too much scientific research and too much advancement to have this stupid, ignorant view.

For me, creating the impression abroad that the Genesis account of creation is not to be taken at face value, undermines the authority of the Bible as a whole.
It gives non-Christians a stick with which to beat down the claim by Paul that "all scripture is god-breathed".
Worse still, it may give self-professing Christians an excuse to not bother reading the Bible.

Some members of my family would describe themselves as devout Catholics. Yet they rarely, if ever, read the Bible.
"It was written by men so it's bound to be full of mistakes."
"Some of it is obviously fantasy."
"(I've read Lord of the Rings 10 times but) the Bible is too hard for me to understand."
"Sure that's what the bishops and the pope are there for".

This results in people conjuring their own wacky little beliefs out of the prevailing ether.
"Sure mine is as good as the next fella's."
Without the Word of God you will never mature beyond spiritual infancy. Your faith will become brittle.

I'll freely admit that it takes a lot of faith to believe in the Genesis account of Creation in the face of what appears to be strong evidence for evolution.
Speaking personally, if Science were ever to conclusively prove 'muck-to-man' evolution, to the satisfaction of all, I may place the Bible back on the shelf alongside Aesop's Fables.

As well as that, to me it seems to make sense that people only believe in religion because they need to.
...
The afterlife... when we die, we like to know that we're going somewhere, that it doesn't just end. Blah.

If I understand it correctly, the central message of Christ was to announce the arrival of His Kingdom: "The Kingdom of God is near". This, and the fact that he was to provide the gateway, was the Good News.
What we are experiencing now is temporary, short-lived, imperfect, sullied by sin, sometimes painful, sometimes joyful. Again, if I understand it correctly, we get a 'foretaste' of this Kingdom when we become Christians, born again in the spirit.

The idea of eternal life is hugely appealing to me. If it weren't, I wouldn't see any point in pursuing Christianity any further. If I was just looking for a moral compass, a 'code of ethics' by which to live my life, I'm sure something like Buddhism or Hinduism would serve me equally well.
What separates Christianity from all other Faiths is the fact that Christ's tomb was empty. I believe the tombs of Mohammed, Buddah, Vishnu, Krishna, etc. were occupied.

I recall discussing my faith with a late friend a few years ago. She told me she had no interest in 'eternal life'. I didn't see much point in arguing after that.

As far as living with Christianity from day to day, the message here is worth bearing in mind.

Vangelis

DaveMcG wrote:

Last year I was a hardened Atheist, and I thought that it was too simple to say "I don't understand where everything came from, so let's just say god did it", but now I'm more of the mind that, at some point something had to come from nothing -- and I can't prove how.

You're contradicting yourself here.
You cannot believe in God because all unexplainable phenomenas can be explained by the existence of a god which is hypocritical, right?
Then you believe in that everything ultimately originates from nothing, even though you can't explain that either.

bmoferrall wrote:

When I later had the opportunity to explore and study the claimed source of those beliefs, namely the Bible, I knew why they felt wrong. It was clear that many of those beliefs had a human, rather than divine, origin.

I'm just curious. Which beliefs did you find were not divine and how were you convinced that you were right?

Paulj

I was brought up in a catholic background and like previous posters, I began to question various parts of the Religion during my late teenage years. Now, I rarely go to mass anymore. Many of the useless rituals of the mass irritate me (the kneeling, the reciting etc). They seem to serve no purpose. I do acknowledge that much good can be learned from the bible ("love your neighbour" etc. etc.), but do we really need to go to mass to learn these things?

I do believe in some sort of powerful being or entity. This is my "faith" and I have made a decision to believe in this for the following reasons:
-I find it difficult to believe that the universe as we know it could have come from nothing without some external input or force. There has to be a greater explanation for the way the world is. The complexity of the whole thing amazes me. The coincidences that would have had to come into play are mind boggling. Why should there be anything...matter, laws of physics, conscious thought, the balance of nature etc.?

I've also decided to believe in an afterlife. Heaven gives people hope. Its something to live for. If you're having a bad day and you don't have hope of something good then why not give up with life? So, I don't have any proof of the afterlife but yet I am choosing to believe in it because its convenient and makes it easier to life live here.
A convenient result of believing in the afterlife is that it poses a possible reason for life. Perhaps its test, the result of which determines what sort of afterlife you have.

I'm not so sure if 'god' cares too much about what goes on here. Maybe thats the point. It wouldn't be a true test if he kept interfering the whole time. This is what i'd say to people who say "how can there be a god given all the bad sh1t that goes on in the world?". I think their sufferings and experiences will be 'taken into account' at the end.

So this brings me to wonder if prayer is really worth doing? People often resort to prayer in times of desperation when all else fails. It would be comforting to know that prayer really works and that god will help people out. This is something i'm divided on at the moment.

Now Religion is a different story completely. I admit religion has its uses:
-How are people to know what is the 'right' way to live if they are not taught it. Of course people can pick up this vital information in a book (such as the bible) but not everyone has the motivation to do this.
-I have the utmost of respect for sisters/brothers/priests etc. who have done good works like setting up hospitals, schools etc.. So the church can inspire people to do good works which they may not have done otherwise.
However I believe that a lot of their (ie. religion's) rituals are not necessary (confessions, baptisms, kneeling, reciting verse upon verse of rosaries etc. etc.). I suppose my point here is that they can spend too much time focusing on whats not really that important in the grand scale of things. Religions should stick to showing people how to live good lives. Its beneficial for all society.

bmoferrall

Vangelis wrote:

I'm just curious. Which beliefs did you find were not divine and how were you convinced that you were right?

I'm specifically referring to unbiblical teachings in the Catholic faith, as expressed in the Catechism.
You can find a biblical analysis of the Catechism here.
That says it better than I ever could.

I don't want to offend anyone here, nor be characterised as a 'Catholic basher'.
I'd prefer to positively affirm the teachings of the Bible as I understand them, rather than dwell on negatives.
Suffice to say that I believe the Catholic Church seriously misrepresents the New Testament.
Once you begin to undermine the authority of the Bible and question its divine underpinnings, it quickly becomes smeared with man's grubby fingerprints.

smidgy

The bible is for me and must be the cornerstone of faith.

I believe because Jesus is undeniably who he said he was.

Anyone can find God in the bible. You dont even need to tackle the mystery of creation and the first cause...because I think that God himself would have difficulty trying to get you to understand them.

Why not look at the things Jesus did as listed in the four godspels.

He was without doubt a miracle worker and he used this to back up the claim of who he was. People who could not accept him at face value for who he said he was had to accept what he was saying when he performed his miracles. He cured the blind, brought someone back from the dead after several days, healed the sick and so on and so on. His message was not of this world. He performed works beyond this world(proof), spoke of values beyond this world and claimed he was somebody not of this world. The things he spoke of were what bmoferrall found himself 'going back to the well' on a regular basis for. He said he was God and backed it up by non human feats. Nothing about him was false. Who else could he be?

I wonder if you saw God in all his glory would you look at him and say 'I bet science can explain you!':rolleyes:

robindch

> He was without doubt a miracle worker and he used this
> to back up the claim of who he was.

In that case, you may be interested in Channel Four this xmas which is having Derren Brown recreate some biblical magic tricks:

http://business.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=871&id=2258632005

Anybody know when this is being shown?

Dades

smidgy wrote:

I wonder if you saw God in all his glory would you look at him and say 'I bet science can explain you!':rolleyes:

That would a sight no doubt. If any of us saw God in all his glory there would not be any point of contention.

The fact is nobody for 2000 years has. And to think they ever did, you must have faith that the stories in an old text have not been made up, misrepresented, or twisted to suit other purposes over the years. (:rolleyes:)

Vangelis

bmoferrall wrote:

I'm specifically referring to unbiblical teachings in the Catholic faith, as expressed in the Catechism.
You can find a biblical analysis of the Catechism here.
That says it better than I ever could.

Thanks, good link. I know there are a lot of strange teachings in the Catechism. A lot more than is on that list too.

I don't want to offend anyone here, nor be characterised as a 'Catholic basher'.
I'd prefer to positively affirm the teachings of the Bible as I understand them, rather than dwell on negatives.
Suffice to say that I believe the Catholic Church seriously misrepresents the New Testament.
Once you begin to undermine the authority of the Bible and question its divine underpinnings, it quickly becomes smeared with man's grubby fingerprints.

Agree completely with you!

Vangelis

The Atheist wrote:

The fact is nobody for 2000 years has. And to think they ever did, you must have faith that the stories in an old text have not been made up, misrepresented, or twisted to suit other purposes over the years. (:rolleyes:)

Oh yes. Some have and have written about it later.
But of course such books never get attention, because it is simply to 'insane' for non-Christians to believe. But some have begun believing in Christ after such stories too.

Excelsior

I know very well, a few people who became Christians without any exposure to Christianity in their lives, because of Jesus coming to them in their dreams.

I have met even more who have experienced that.

And I have heard of many more who throughout the world have had that happen to them.

The girl I know best is a close colleague of mine working near Russia and if you asked her she would say that without knowing anything outside of Islam, the fullness of God came to her repeatedly. What do people make of these reported conversions?

smidgy

In that case, you may be interested in Channel Four this xmas which is having Derren Brown recreate some biblical magic tricks:

Dont get me wrong I am a fan of Derren Brown but to talk of him in the same vein as Jesus is a bit crazy because (a) he doesnt talk the talk and (b) he does not really walk the walk either.

I know very well, a few people who became Christians without any exposure to Christianity in their lives, because of Jesus coming to them in their dreams.

I once had a dream during a time when I was spiritually weak, in it Jesus came to me and told me that my body was not my own to do with as I pleased - he said that it was a gift from God. Now I am not claiming anything for certain but I think what you are talking about is entirely possible. It still leaves the person with the choice and freewill is still the decider. It seems well within the seemingly allowed spectrum of influence.

BrianCalgary

On Saturdays we had Jehovah's witnesses in our neighbourhood, my neighbour was Catholic, we Anglican, across the street United and Presbyterians. Donnie Osmond is Mormon and of course the world humanistic or Atheist, not to mention Mohammed Ali, a muslim.

Which one was right? After examining all the claims of religions, the question begged: Who is Jesus? He claimed to be God. Anyone who can raise people from the dead, heal blindness, cure lameness, preach a philosophy of 'others before self and finally; raise Himself from the dead, Him I trust. He said that He is the only way to God. Well, Him I believe and not Joseph Smith, Tom Cruise, Shirley McLaine, Siddhartha or Confucius.

Then I had a look at evolution. Science claims this to be truth. Well, science itself proves that evolution is an impossibility through the proven physical, mathematical and biological laws.

From my open mind I came to only one conclusion: Jesus is God incarnate who came to earth for our salvation.:D

Dades

Vangelis wrote:

Oh yes. Some have and have written about it later.
But of course such books never get attention, because it is simply to 'insane' for non-Christians to believe.

People see things all the time. Not just Jesus or God, but ghosts, or Elvis. And what of those who see Mohammad, or Buddha - why are their visions not real? Let not forget also a ridiculous percentage of Americans claim to have been abducted by aliens. These people all believe in the reality of their experiences.

The mind is a weird contraption, and is influenced by all sorts of subliminal external factors or needs.
Doesn't make one insane BTW.

Vangelis

The Atheist wrote:

Doesn't make one insane BTW.

I wonder why not.

solas

excelsior wrote:

What do people make of these reported conversions?

this was my experience. I used to be able to speak openly about it but I quickly learned its not a very acceptable thing, even among "spiritual" circles. Its mostly considered a psychological disfunction.

Excelsior

A strangely strong faith in Freud, eh Solas?