'The After Life'

Rev Hellfire

I'm not sure if this particular theory comes from Shinto but our man in Japan Asiaprod may be familiar with it. I was recently at a lecture and during the course of it a different form of reincarnation came up.

The basic premise is that a person is not a single entity but in a connected multiple each with takes a turn one after the other.

The idea simply put that I am connected with say 5 other entities. And that my actions affect the outcome for the next person and the duration they must wait before their subsequent reincarnation.

Just another one for the reincarnation heads to mull over.

Dades

saibhne wrote:

The theory about the growth of the human population at the moment is that this world is currently going through a crucial and unique evolutionary period and that many experiential rewards are available to those brave enough to get stuck in. The result of this is that everyone is just jumping on the bandwagon and incarnating as much as possible at the same time.

I'm confused here. How does this theory fit in with the fertility rates of developing countries? And why is the European population in decline?

Goodshape wrote:

(and you don't need to 'believe' anything to think about the issue. fact is, we don't have the answers. but you won't get them without asking some questions.. can be fun too)

I'm so glad you added that caveat - I thought you'd lost it.

Asiaprod

Rev Hellfire wrote:

The basic premise is that a person is not a single entity but in a connected multiple each with takes a turn one after the other.

Thats an interesting one.

The problem with religions in Japan is that there are thousands of them. It is very common for someone to build his own temple and develop his own religion. This is a purely monetary thing. Religion is a business. For example, you can cremate somebody and each year pay a hefty fee to a priest to receive a new and better after death name that will assure the deceased of a higher position in the afterlife. The more you pay, over a period of years of course to generate more money for the temple, the better the name they will a lot to you... I mean, talk about a rip off. The truth of the matter is that in general the Japanese are the most unreligiouse and superstitious race on the planet. They go to specific temples to achieve specific targets. There are temples for everything you could possibly conceive of. It is generally a pay as you go spiritual society.

What you describe is a bastardization of a the Buddhist concept that we are all, human. plant and animal, connected at a higher level through a natural law that permeates everything.

I honestly cannot see what would be gained by having to wait in line for my turn.

Excelsior

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

it seems to me that people who say "i beleive " are actually expressing a desire or preference for a certain possible outcome

It seems to me that people who say "I don't believe" are actually expressing a desire or preference for a certain possible outcome.

I think waiting for empirical proof on the afterlife may be irrelevant since it would appear to be (although not neccesarily) a super-empirical event if it exists.

I believe that afterlife exists and that it is either with God or apart from him. I don't think heaven will be boring but rather like CS Lewis said, it is like a great novel where each new chapter is better than the last.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

I don't think heaven will be boring but rather like CS Lewis said, it is like a great novel where each new chapter is better than the last.

I would love to hear your understanding of what heaven will be like. The understanding forced into me was of sitting around all day praising God, and that really did not go down well with me. What do you think its like?

Dades

Excelsior wrote:

It seems to me that people who say "I don't believe" are actually expressing a desire or preference for a certain possible outcome.

I don't subscribe to this one. I would love to believe there is more to follow, even if it was something along the lines of some of the wacky reincarnation ideas above. And no doubt as I (with a bit of luck) grow old, this "want" to believe will get stronger.

But I agree that waiting for empirical evidence is fruitless.

robindch

> This is a purely monetary thing. Religion is a business.

Same in the USA -- hard statistics are difficult to come by, but this report is worth a quick read:

http://www.resourcingchristianity.org/downloads/Essays/Financing%20American%20Religion%20-%20Final.pdf

...which says that the national spend on god in the USA, twelve years ago, was probably between $40 billion and $60 billion, or around $60 to $85 billion in today's cash. A nice little earner, specially when it's tax-free!

Any figures on for Japan? Or Korea, where the strength of christian fundamentalism seems to be second only to the US bible belt.

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

Any figures on for Japan?

No, all religions are tax free and do not have to account for their cash. Shinto is the state religion and is heavily subsidized by the government. But judging by their real estate and the size of their temples they earn a **** lot of money. I don't know very much about Korea, but I would say it is the same.
I think these oriental religions could teach their wester counterparts a thing or to when it comes to sqeezing money from the faithful.

Nevyn

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.

We go on in other forms.

Asiaprod

Thaedydal wrote:

We go on in other forms.

For example?

homah_7ft

Thaedydal wrote:

Quote:
First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.


We go on in other forms.

Unfortunately it doesn't stop there. The second law of thermodynamics dooms us all I'm afraid. The energy may be conserved but it tends to increase in entropy. In the end we get complete disorder and chaos.

biko

Thaedydal wrote:

Quote:
First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.


We go on in other forms.QUOTE]

Unfortunately it doesn't stop there. The second law of thermodynamics dooms us all I'm afraid. The energy may be conserved but it tends to increase in entropy. In the end we get complete disorder and chaos.

Why do my quotes not come up in blue?

Look at your quote brackets, you'll see why.

I think that believing in a second existance/reincarnation/heaven is
1. bad because it may restrain you in THIS existance
2. good because it will give people without hope for a better life something to hold on to.

saibhne

Asiaprod wrote:

I would be nice if you could explain that one a little more clearly, it is rather confusing,
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Here goes!

The way I have heard and read it posed is that our "souls" (call it what you will) is an energetic body part of the universal energy that is everything. Your soul is capable of deciding to incarnate as whatever form it desires in this three dimensional universe.
However, it (your soul) can make a decision as to how much energy it will devote to each incarnation depending on what it reckons it will get out of that life. This hinges on the premise that the reason you live your life is to experience everything and grow accordingly - (very difficult for me to express the technicalities of this idea right now)
If you accept the premise above that experience is the goal then the soul chooses which incarnations it and the universe will most benefit from. This is quite a complicated choice I'm sure but a very simple example would be if a soul was in need of experiencing and learning love to be born into a warm and caring environment, equally and to keep a balance (karma) a soul in need of experiencing hate would choose a recepetive environment to fulfill that.

A soul can then choose to devote as much energy to that incarnation as needed to complete the lesson. Harder and more valuable lessons tend to need a lot more of an energy investment.
The growth in population mentioned by The Atheist would be a consequence of many souls dividing their energy into many beings and also a increased concentration of souls wishing to incarnate on this earth as opposed to other less fruitful options available in the universe. Apparently the earth is a very difficult place to exist by universal standards - a lot of hardship.

Related to this growth is that I have heard that we on earth are currently at the beginning of a turbulent time where many hard lessons can be learned due to the difficulty of the circumstances we are/will be faced with. Due to the uniqueness of this period many souls choose to be incarnated now as the lessons available will be quite valuable.

There you go..

robindch

> I think these oriental religions could teach their
> wester counterparts a thing or to when it comes
> to sqeezing money from the faithful.

A hideous thought -- do tell more!

BTW, a quick google turned up the Korean Yoido Gospel Church (funny visitor's report here). Looks like it's just the same as the frightful 25,000-people per week outfit I visited in Dallas and where I copped out and bought a $2.50 tin box of own-brand peppermints (http://www.fellowshipchurch.com/ -- for a laugh, find their christmas-day 'service' schedule ). A completely weird place; go there if yiz're in Dallas!

Asiaprod

saibhne wrote:

Your soul is capable of deciding to incarnate as whatever form it desires in this three dimensional universe.
However, it (your soul) can make a decision as to how much energy it will devote to each incarnation depending on what it reckons it will get out of that life. This hinges on the premise that the reason you live your life is to experience everything and grow accordingly - (very difficult for me to express the technicalities of this idea right now)

No, you have expressed yourself very well. This is one account I have never seen or heard. Having the capability to decide when to reincarnate and how much energy to use very interesting concept. One I have never thought about. Can you tell me where you read it?

If you accept the premise above that experience is the goal then the soul chooses which incarnations it and the universe will most benefit from. This is quite a complicated choice I'm sure but a very simple example would be if a soul was in need of experiencing and learning love to be born into a warm and caring environment, equally and to keep a balance (karma) a soul in need of experiencing hate would choose a receptive environment to fulfill that.

This kind of ties in with something I have always considered. That one of the main purposes behind reincarnation was to over the duration experience ever kind of condition, starting at say the most unhappy and as a result of how you did, move onward to bigger and better things. A bad example would be say you started as a beggar in India and moved on to a millionaire in New York.

Must hand it to you, you did a great job explaining that. I think I will take time out to study this idea. Every idea has some benefit if one can only find it. Thank for your insight

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

A hideous thought -- do tell more!

Well lets see
Buying names for the deceased to get them a better place in the afterlife (Shinto)
Buying names for deceased pets (Zen) and their grave site.
Charging huge fees for grave sites,
Charging a yearly maintenance fee (usually nothing is done).
Charging for each new urn interned despite the fact that you have already paid for the site.
Charging for each urn removed from the site you own.
Charging fees to bless ground before a new house is built (socially an obligatory event)
New years dues
End of year dues.
Chargeable ceremonies for every event you could possibly think of.
This list could go on all day.
There are of course religions that are truly religious and do not charge these kinds of fees.

saibhne

Asiaprod wrote:

No, you have expressed yourself very well. This is one account I have never seen or heard. Having the capability to decide when to reincarnate and how much energy to use very interesting concept. One I have never thought about. Can you tell me where you read it?

The most straightforward explanation I have read was from a guy called Michael Newton - a psychologist who used hypnotherapy to regress people past their birth to the consciousness they experienced before being born. I liked him because of the scientific methodology used but interestingly his findings tie in with a lot of age old spiritual teachings - e.g. he deals with the idea of Karma well.

A few of his books are here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1567184855/002-2848204-6719246?v=glance&n=283155

Enjoy - let me know what you think if you have a read of them

Dave!

Stephen wrote:

I believe that once you're dead, that's it. Worm food.

yep, me too

Donangel

hey everyone,

actually i do believe in an after life, and i am almost sure of it,its a feeling i get every morning i awake and everytime i go to bed.i think its impossible that our lives will end the moment we shut our eyes and die. i mean why is it so hard to grasp! there are so many things happen everyday that has no explanation none what-so-ever and we still accept it, and call it luck or a coincidence or whatever.

and i dont think we can analyse things in the way we think now,because we are obliged to follow the laws of this world and material that we are encased in.i think when we die the whole equation will be changed and we will have totaly different variables, let alone our point of views which will totally be different as will we,

think about it,...

Excelsior

Asiaprod wrote:

I would love to hear your understanding of what heaven will be like. The understanding forced into me was of sitting around all day praising God, and that really did not go down well with me. What do you think its like?

First off, Christianity is in the common mind, often seen as obbsessed with heaven. Let me quote NT Wright, the Bishop of Durham and one of the greatest theologians alive when he said, "Heaven is all well and good, but its not the end of the world"

Heaven, in the Bible, is often talked about as being on Earth, but in a redeemed and so utterly different Earth. We are told more about our state in heaven than what state heaven is in. So there will be no tears and discontent but satisfaction and joy.

CS Lewis puts it best for me when he says that life in heaven is like a really great novel. Each day or chapter is better than the last. We always want to know what we will fill our "days" with in Heaven and I feel the same sense of dreaded boredom at the picture of heaven as a massive hymn session that is often presented. But we are bred to think about happiness as something we achieve by doing. As a Buddhist, you surely will aggree with the Christian idea that in Heaven, we will be happy not because of what we do, but because of who we are.

The twist that differs from Buddhism of course is that we find out who we are because of who we spend our time with. In Heaven, we spend our time with our Creator and through relationship with him, fulfillment is found.

Still, I really want to beat Karl Marx at chess so I hope there is a games room amongst the many rooms of our Father's mansion.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

"Heaven is all well and good, but its not the end of the world"

What a great quote, I like that one a lot. Smart guy.

Excelsior wrote:

But we are bred to think about happiness as something we achieve by doing. As a Buddhist, you surely will agree with the Christian idea that in Heaven, we will be happy not because of what we do, but because of who we are.

That's a hard one to answer as it can so easily be misrepresented. Let me answer it this way.
Yes, one should be happy in ones afterlife because of who one is. Very valid statement, very acceptable.

The twist that differs from Buddhism of course is that we find out who we are because of who we spend our time with. In Heaven, we spend our time with our Creator and through relationship with him, fulfillment is found.

This is the tough bit. It is to simplistic a statement in its current form for me to agree with. It is only part of the story. We do not find out who we are simply by spending time with other people. That is only one of many approaches, though it is a limited one for me. In contrast, think of the Hermits and holy men from Jainism, Hinduism and early Buddhism. Think again of the Hermits and holy men of the middle ages in England and Europe, and in your own faith, of those closed orders of monks and nuns, and in particular those closed and silent orders. Their participation with their fellow man is highly limited, would you not agree? Their communion is more a non-on-one with their God.
The whole central core of what I believe in has more to do with changing myself and MY outlook,and not of those around me. Of course I want to help them as much as I possibly can, but Buddhism is a little selfish in that despite all we read and study, the message at the end of the day says "Ultimately, you are responsible for no one but yourself and this must be your prime derective"

Since Buddhism is atheistic in terms of God, but agnostic in terms of an afterlife or continuation of life-force, our focus is concentrated on the methodology of attaining the desired result. Therefore, if I was to jumble up both your and my faith to create the perfect equation for success it would read something like

Because of what we have become by virtue of what we do here, we can go to heaven and be happy with who we are.

So as you may see, we Buddhist concentrate solely on the here and now for the best path to the after life. We do not speculate on what this afterlife is, since it is meaningless to without actually talking to somebody who has been there.　In contrast, you practice to a living God that you know through his works and writings, and private interactions, and your sole mission is the desire to be happy with him in heaven.

In your statement, you place the emphasis on who you are in heaven (we spend our time with our Creator and through relationship with him, fulfillment is found), I place the emphasis on the journey to become who I am going to be and thereby achieve my happyness.

However, we can both agree that leading a good life is the correct way to attaining happyness.......right!

Still, I really want to beat Karl Marx at chess so I hope there is a games room amongst the many rooms of our Father's mansion.

Ha-ha, that is an interesting desire, I intend booking my time there with De Vinci. I got a lot of questions to ask him