Minister for Defence - Willie O'Dea

Rovi

Does anyone know where Sparks lives?
We'll need the address to send the ambulance with the defibrillator when he sees this-

From today's (Thu, Nov 17, 05) Irish Times-

The Irish Times wrote:

Minister for Defence Willie O'Dea holds an automatic pistol during an exercise at the Curragh Camp, Co Kildare, yesterday.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/1117/

Just heard the Fine Gael defence spokesman (whose name I can't remember, but he's a former soldier) on the radio berating the minister for his appalling gun handling and bad taste in light of recent gangland events.

Leaving aside the political point scoring, the gun handling does leave a lot to be desired
The presenter's speculation that "surely the gun would have been empty" didn't impress the Fine Gael man much.

I don't know if Minister O'Dea has any firearms experience, but you'd think whoever was looking after the gun would have pointed out the glaring mistake!


I hear Ryan Tubridy proclaiming it to be a great laugh too

.

civdef

It mightn't be entirely unknown for some soldier not to correct the minister for one of two reasons:

(a) Not to draw attention to onself correcting the boss.

(b) Letting the boss look silly in the process..


Fine Gael spokesman Billy Timmins by any chance?

jaycee

Looking at the front page of the Times , there is a picture of our own dear
minister for defence , pointing a handgun at the camera and the cameraman presumably.

I consider it to be in very poor taste , and I would expect that if any shooters did this at a club or a range , an instant ban would be enforced .
The knock on effect of this would be a written report to the Gardaí , probably resulting in a visit from them to seize your firearms. (And rightly so !)

I feel an apology is warranted.

On a lighter note...:

An ARMY spokesman who was interviewed on RTE1 expressed his distaste of the incident, but went on to say.. "The very first thing we teach people when they join the army is ... never point a gun at anyone"

Eh..? It must make it a bit tricky dealing with hostile forces ...:D

Rew

It was a display by the Ranger Wing for their 25th anniversary, so they would have been looking after the gun. The other thing is the photographer would have setup the shot (I doubt he told him to put his finger on the trigger though).

Sparks

*groan*

Sparks

In fact, more than *groan*. The man was the Junior Minister in the DoJ for years during which he agreed with the policy of not issuing pistol licences, thus keeping us out of a third of the events in the Olympics. And now he's waving a pistol at a photographer (which is technically assault, last I looked) on the front page of the IT, a paper whose sports editor point-blank refused to carry any news of target shooting competitions?
I'm actually *mad* about this now :mad:

civdef

which is technically assault, last I looked

Only if the people it was being pointed at felt in fear for their safety.

Clare gunner

Not only that ASFICS minister O Dea is pointing a GLOCK at the camera and has his finger on the trigger!!That means the saftey is disengaged in this gun.

---

Would have thought there would have been enough competant personel there at the ARW to show the minister how to handle firearms properly not to mind improving on the semi gangsta stance!!!!

macnas

Doesn't look good.... right handed and left eye dominant:D
He'd have serious bother with a Steyr.

civdef

Not only that ASFICS minister O Dea is pointing a GLOCK at the camera and has his finger on the trigger!!

It's a Sig 226, as used by the gentlemen he was visiting on the day. As REW pointed out, some photographer saw a great photo op, and the minister, clearly not knowing any better agreed.

Rew

It is a Sig P226 as far as i know.

Clare gunner

Thank God for small mercies then!!!!But still bad gun handling.

jaycee

Only if the people it was being pointed at felt in fear for their safety.

Would that include all readers of the Irish Times..:rolleyes:

Sparks

Leaving aside the somewhat amusing comments made at his appointment in the Dail, I think not JC. I'll go dig out the relevant Acts today over lunch and see if I can find the actual law, it's been so long since I looked it up (but then, I always thought of it as being a simple idea - just don't point firearms at people). But that photo has actually given me a headache today, it's gotten me so annoyed. What kind of example is he trying to set? He's a Government Minister for crying out loud...

jaycee

What Department was involved in the last "Thundering Disgrace"
Hmmm...let's see...:rolleyes:

civdef

I'll go dig out the relevant Acts today over lunch and see if I can find the actual law

I'll save you the hassle

NON-FATAL OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON ACT, 1997 SECTION 2

2.—(1) A person shall be guilty of the offence of assault who, without lawful excuse, intentionally or recklessly—

( a ) directly or indirectly applies force to or causes an impact on the body of another, or
( b ) causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she is likely immediately to be subjected to any such force or impact,
without the consent of the other.

(2) In subsection (1)(a), "force" includes—

( a ) application of heat, light, electric current, noise or any other form of energy, and
( b ) application of matter in solid liquid or gaseous form.

(3) No such offence is committed if the force or impact, not being intended or likely to cause injury, is in the circumstances such as is generally acceptable in the ordinary conduct of daily life and the defendant does not know or believe that it is in fact unacceptable to the other person.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

civdef

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1117/dail.html



Maybe Willie is following the example of another well known politician:

Sparks

civdef wrote:

Maybe Willie is following the example of another well known politician:

So when's he going to gas the Kurds then?

civdef

He has the moustache for it anyway...

Sparks

BTW, that quote from O'Dea:

the photographer requested I hold it up and the army didn't object

Exactly when did soldiers get put in charge of issuing orders to the Minister for Defence?

Sparks

civdef wrote:

And in neither photo is the gun pointed at anyone. I wonder what it says about O'Dea that Saddam Hussein displays better firearms safety than O'Dea does?

Rew

Its actully gotten way out of hand every joe soap is jumping on the band waggon now. The weapon was checked and cleared, he shouldn't have put his finer on the trigger but then again he's not firearms trained and its the first thing any civie does.

Sparks has a similar photo of a target rifle as I recall.

Clare gunner

Hmmmmm The world had better beware of men with mustaches in charge of armies.:eek:
{At least Churchill cannot be blamed for unsafe gun handling}

Actually Sparks,anyone is entitled to tell the minister of defence,not to mind the POTUS,if they are doing somthing wrong or daft.Wether you will be listned to is another matter.

Clare gunner

Rew wrote:

Its actully gotten way out of hand every joe soap is jumping on the band waggon now.

You mean every Joe Duffy???:D

The weapon was checked and cleared, he shouldn't have put his finer on the trigger but then again he's not firearms trained and its the first thing any civie does.

The checked&cleared weapopns are the ones that usually are not.
Wonder what the pic would have beenif it had gone off and we had one dead member of the press??Unlikely that it would happen....BUT!!!
Agreed,but you would think the brass and the ARW would care to point out that little whoopsie to the cheif?:rolleyes:

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

And in neither photo is the gun pointed at anyone. I wonder what it says about O'Dea that Saddam Hussein displays better firearms safety than O'Dea does?

OTOH Saddo was firing LIVE ammo into the air ,over a built up area,over a crowd of thousands.Here he would be charged with reckless discharge of a firearm.:D But it seems to be the accepted method of safely emptying your mag in them parts.Point weapon skywards,switch to full auto,pull trigger,until gun stops firing.:D

thelurcher

Rew wrote:

Its actully gotten way out of hand every joe soap is jumping on the band waggon now. The weapon was checked and cleared, he shouldn't have put his finer on the trigger but then again he's not firearms trained and its the first thing any civie does.

Sparks has a similar photo of a target rifle as I recall.

REW: That's no defence - they shouldn't have given the gun to him in the first place without telling him the obvious 'what not to do's'.

Sparks

Rew wrote:

Sparks has a similar photo of a target rifle as I recall.

Yup. With the bolt up and the breech visually checked by both myself and the shooter, both of which knew what they were doing, and the whole exercise being done for training purposes, not PR. And neither person had denied anyone a firearms licence for a pistol!

Rew

The pistol was inspected by the Army, who know what they are doing (ARW personnel in this case). The motive is irelevent im afraid. Something is either ok/safe to do or its not. I i think this has been blown out of all preportions for political gain as oppoed to people having a go at him on genuine safety grounds.

civdef

Agreed, silly thing to do, but I have no doubt that almost all of the politicians taking shots (yes it is a pun) at O'Dea would have done the very same in the circumstances.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

You know inloaded weapons kill more people?

"I didn't know it was loaded I swear"

Catch my drift...

I was thought at m father the never point a gun at anything loaded or not, unless I was 100% sure.

Anyway that was the Sig Sauer, right? The regular PDF was supposed to be issued these but I don't know what happened. Maybe it was just rumour, well the BAP is still a pretty decent weapon.

Rew

They went throught eh selection process and the sig won then the funds didnt comr though. The funds are back now and the selection process is being rerun (I think)

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Selection between which weapons? What exactly is in the running? Any news of these pistols being issued to the RDF?

As for the minister, the ARW wouldn't "order" O' Dea, but if he has no weapons training then they have every right to order him not to point the weapon the way they did.

It was obviously safe and therefore the officer (Or whoever was in charge) didn't have any objections to it. Obviously wasn't the best thing to do, but people are taking this too far. It's total bull... Anyone would have done it without thinking about the aftermath.

Kryten

Ex military myself! The only time that weapon and ammo are united is on the range, with a range officer, only the shooters present, no press on the firing line and certainly no politicians. At all other times ammo is kept safely in stores.

When each weapon is drawn from the stores, safety precautions are carried out, When weapon is handed to another person, safety precautions are carried out. Basic TOETS ensure that everyone knows how to handle weapons safely and are tested on it every year. The Army have an impecable safety record. They run open days for children from time to time and let them handle the weapons in a safe environment.

As far as pointing weapons at other people, in my day the use of an aiming disk by our instructors was part of the syllabus. Like I say full safety precautions carried out every time a weapon is picked up or passed to another person.

So the Minister posing for a photograph is just that. Done in a safe and controlled environment, supervised by the experts!

Clare gunner

Indeed
Kryten,you have a safe method of training.BUT it still does not hurt to say even to a minister and an untrained civvie about rule no 1.
Obvisouly not in a SGT major way!;) More like ,dont do that Sir,theres a good fellow, type suggestion.As we cant crystal ball gaze and predict when Mr O Dea might pick up another weapon somtime in different circumstances,it might mean the difference between somones life and death.

Kryten

True, Apart from the aiming disk method of training that the army once used, You never point a gun at anything you do not intend to shoot. So I suppose the minister for defence, who is suppose to represent the Army, should know better. May seem like I am changing my tune a bit, but in hind sight the minister should have told the press reporter," are you mad, I will certainly not point a pistol at you". And on further reflection, the politicians tell us under what conditions we may have firearms, but they are the ones who dont have a bulls notion about them, (as Mr O'Dea has proven).

APOLOGIES if I seemed to be on "my high horse earlier" but I know for a fact that the military are extremely professional in their regard to firearm safety.

Sparks

Whatever about him picking up a firearm and injuring someone CG, I'm just ticked as he personally refused us pistol licences a few years back and now he's waving one about on the front page of the IT. :mad:

jaycee

Whatever about him picking up a firearm and injuring someone CG, I'm just ticked as he personally refused us pistol licences a few years back and now he's waving one about on the front page of the IT.

Amen to that ..!

Sparks

And proving that you can make a quick buck off just about anything:

http://www.cafepress.com/eireshirt.37955798

Clare gunner

Fair fuks to that enterprising soul in the T shirt biz;) .
Sparks, as Willie is down in my part of the world and I have to meet him and his underling regarding some roads coming into our property in the future.I'll mention this small fact to him ,not to mind the complete hames of the firearms and offensive weapons act 1990[1].In the nicest possible way of course.:D