Stamp Duty Tax Back??

branners69

Hi,

is there anyway for me to claw back some money from the €22860 I'm going to be paying in stamp duty??

There is no claim I can make against my tax or anything like that??

Cheers

Branners

MorningStar

Can ask why you think you should be able to?
I am really curious about the logic where it makes sense that you get it back.

techie_2006

MorningStar wrote:

Can ask why you think you should be able to?
I am really curious about the logic where it makes sense that you get it back.

It's just a simple question that requires a yes or no answer. Not everyone in Ireland knows their entitlements, myself included.

Hobart

branners69 wrote:

Hi,

is there anyway for me to claw back some money from the €22860 I'm going to be paying in stamp duty??

There is no claim I can make against my tax or anything like that??

Cheers

Branners

The short answer is no. Pain in the ass I know, but a fact of life I'm afraid. Oh and Morningstar, you seem to be making a habit of these type of answers. If you can't answer the question, why bother posting ffs?

joejoem

MorningStar wrote:

Can ask why you think you should be able to?
I am really curious about the logic where it makes sense that you get it back.

Where does logic come into our tax system? It seemed like a fair question to me, I had wondered the same.

Hobart

joejoem wrote:

Where does logic come into our tax system? It seemed like a fair question to me, I had wondered the same.

It probably is a fair question, in context. My point being the context.

techie_2006

joejoem wrote:

Where does logic come into our tax system? It seemed like a fair question to me, I had wondered the same.

Yeah, the second the thread popped up on the main page I subscribed to it. My best mate bought a house in July, I taught it would be good to know the answer to this question.

Good question Branners.

MorningStar

It is a fair question to ask and maybe let people understand why things exist.

Why would anybody think stamp duty is refundable?

I am not suggesting anything only asking. Maybe the context of why they think it is refundable matter. Can you claim stamp duty back if it is disable friendly and you require it? The logic and understanding are important.

Asking somebody a question isn't an attack.
So relax

smurfbaby

MorningStar wrote:

It is a fair question to ask and maybe let people understand why things exist.

Why would anybody think stamp duty is refundable?

Morningstar,
OP did not think that stamp duty is refundable, but actually asked if there was any way to claw some of it back.
You can claim tax relief on your mortgage payments, as well as things like doctors visits, so I think it's fairly reasonable to ask if you can do the same on stamp duty.

MorningStar

smurfbaby wrote:

Morningstar,
OP did not think that stamp duty is refundable, but actually asked if there was any way to claw some of it back.
You can claim tax relief on your mortgage payments, as well as things like doctors visits, so I think it's fairly reasonable to ask if you can do the same on stamp duty.

Nit piking on the words makes all the difference. :rolleyes: I know the logic on the other refunds and am still curious what logic to get ANY of the stamp duty back is.

I am entitled to ask and the OP may refuse if he want but why you feel the need to attack a me for a question seems to be what I am being accused of.

branners69

Just to clarify I was just hoping there was a way to claw some of the stamp duty back!!

As Smurfbaby said you can claim tax relief so I was hoping you could maybe claim a certain amount back!! I have saved €7000 of my pay last year towards my stamp duty so my logic was that seeing as how stamp duty is a charge on buying a property I was hoping I could claim my tax back on the €7000 as the government are getting two bites at my money. One hitting me for taxes the other hitting me for the stamp duty!! I do realise that it would be hard to prove the €7000 so hence this post!!

Maybe this is only logical to me so apologies in advance!!

Thanx for the replies!!

And remember play nice!!:D

MorningStar

The answer is simple then no.

Stamp duty is a purchasing tax on property no diffenrent from VAT on items you buy after paying your tax on wages. Yoiu are paying tax on your purcahse

rooferPete

MorningStar wrote:

The answer is simple then no.

Stamp duty is a purchasing tax on property no diffenrent from VAT on items you buy after paying your tax on wages. Yoiu are paying tax on your purcahse

Hi MorningStar,

I have been reading a lot of your posts and while I agree it is very important to have a Social Element in our tax system to look after the members of our society in need.

I find it strange that a self confessed capitalist (Landlord) should go to the trouble of shoving what appears to be a socialist mantra down everyones neck at every possible opportunity.

.

Honestly I can't see why you didn't quit when you were ahead :

MorningStar wrote:

The answer is simple then no.

There is a huge difference between Value Added Tax and Stamp Duty, I am no accountant or tax advisor just a simple Capitalist who in the past asked a similar question of his Solicitor, and I was not / am not ashamed in any way for asking my professional advisor the question.

Maybe you would consider lightening up a little on questions asked by members of the tax paying public without whom there would be no tax take to distribute.

lomb

as a capitalist myself, i can say thats a fair question and its an unfair tax simply because its A exorbitant, and B serves to reduce liquidity in house sales and purcahses probably increasing prices but then again youd need a scientific study to confirm that.
stamp duty is a tax charged on stamping documents, an ancient tax that predates the internet:D but seriously when the deed is stamped with your name on it, the tax is liable.
there is no way that i know to get any of it back, but there are some exemptions for new houses(because the builder has already payed stamp on the transfer of the site to him), and for first time buyers(to help them on the property ladder.) hope that helps:)

MorningStar

rooferPete wrote:

I find it strange that a self confessed capitalist (Landlord) should go to the trouble of shoving what appears to be a socialist mantra down everyones neck at every possible opportunity.

I am neither socilist or capatilist and how I make my income is my choice either way and confesses nothing of my political beliefs. You can assume all you like

rooferPete wrote:

There is a huge difference between Value Added Tax and Stamp Duty, I am no accountant or tax advisor just a simple Capitalist who in the past asked a similar question of his Solicitor, and I was not / am not ashamed in any way for asking my professional advisor the question.

Basically they are taxes and the poster said they don't like paying tax twice and I was just pointing out in that theory you would buy all goods without tax.

rooferPete wrote:

Maybe you would consider lightening up a little on questions asked by members of the tax paying public without whom there would be no tax take to distribute.

I only asked to find out the thinking behind it. THere was nothing wrong with asking the question from me or him. If people didn't assume views or intent there would be a lot more relaxed conversations.

Sleipnir

I get quite glum when I think of how much tax I've given the government for stamping a document so I can see why the OP just wanted to confirm whether or not there was any way of clawing back a few euro from the tax-man.

branners69

Looks like its just one of those things!!

Am glad I asked!! Better to be safe then sorry!!

Thanx for all the replies!!

Peace

MorningStar wrote:

The answer is simple then no.

Stamp duty is a purchasing tax on property no diffenrent from VAT on items you buy after paying your tax on wages. Yoiu are paying tax on your purcahse

Stamp & VAT are the same thing then are they???:rolleyes:

VAT is a tax placed on non essential goods. IMO a house is an essential good.

Whats more important than putting walls and a roof around your family? Maybe food/water/clothers....

It would be a much better system for people to be excempt from stamp if they only own one property (regardless of FTB or not). I would like to see people who own multiple proprties getting raped for stamp.

To the OP... Its an excellent question but i don't think there is a way of getting stamp tax back. If there were i would imagine everyone would be doing it. Unfortunately i am in the position of facing a €9600 stamp bill in the next couple of months and the only way of getting around it would be highly illegal (but the option has been offered to me by two seperate estate agents in the last week or so).

garred

Peace wrote:

It would be a much better system for people to be excempt from stamp if they only own one property (regardless of FTB or not). I would like to see people who own multiple proprties getting raped for stamp./QUOTE]

?????????

Can never understand these statements. Get the person with more than one property. Tax him to the hilt. People tend to forget that you borrow up to your arse, have all sorts of hassle/stress and you still don't own the properties....the banks still technically own them.

lomb

people are always communists when it comes to other people because they dont want anyone to get ahead, whem it comes to themselves and their interests they are 1001% grade A capitalists, ive studied alot of people in my job (dentist) and i think i know what im talking about, its a universal afflication that everyone suffers from to some degree...

joejoem

Peace wrote:

It would be a much better system for people to be excempt from stamp if they only own one property (regardless of FTB or not). I would like to see people who own multiple proprties getting raped for stamp.

Thats just silly. How about we reduce the stamp duty rates to a fixed fee. And make it small, we pay huge amounts of tax already. You can barely breath without paying tax. I have one proprty and hope to buy another within a year. Does this mean that I should be "raped for stamp"? I would be borrowed to the maixmum and frankly living off a small remaining salary, sacrificing it in the knowlege that it may/will pay off in the future, not rolling in a matress of money as people so fondly imagine landlords.

Peace

Why do you need a second/third/fourth house?

FTB's have huge problems getting on the market due to the price of houses. The changing of the stamp duty rates/brackets last year was a step in the right direction to try and help out FTB's.

Its silly from your point of view as you'd be paying extra. Its not silly from the point of view of a first time buyer who is bidding aginst investors.

lomb

people 'need' a second+ house because its property, and thats the one thing that offers security, its one of the few assets that tracks inflation, the more u own the better off u will b, yes its not fair but who said life was fair?they tried communism and that didnt work (obviously), its a free market, you pay ur money and take ur choice, government control only reduces overall wealth. thats my two cents, and i dont even own a house yet (but i soon will thats for sure!)

grumpytrousers

joejoem wrote:

Thats just silly. How about we reduce the stamp duty rates to a fixed fee. And make it small, we pay huge amounts of tax already. You can barely breath without paying tax. I have one proprty and hope to buy another within a year. Does this mean that I should be "raped for stamp"? I would be borrowed to the maixmum and frankly living off a small remaining salary, sacrificing it in the knowlege that it may/will pay off in the future, not rolling in a matress of money as people so fondly imagine landlords.

Aye, but nobody 'needs' a second house as much as they 'need' the first house; thus the current system of higher stamp duty on 'investment' properties seems pretty fair...

joejoem

Peace wrote:

Why do you need a second/third/fourth house?

Why would I want a raise?

I dont need a second house. Its not a nececity, its a choice, its an investment. I am choosing to do something with my savings rather that squander them on a luxury item. I want to work now so my future is easier. Investors arent trying to profit from other peoples misery, they are simply investing in a safe market (safe as houses.)

Remember investors are responible for alot of the renovation work in citys in Ireland. Section 23 propertys (where an older or run down property has been renovated and sold as a tax incentive) have increased the value of some run down/cheap areas in Dublin, offering a better quality of living to others.

Peace

lomb wrote:

thats my two cents, and i dont even own a house yet (but i soon will thats for sure!)

Well lomb i wouldn't be suprised if you change you point of view when you are bidding against investors on houses.

My point is very simple.

Your first house is IMO an essential item, just like food/clothes etc and therefore you should not have to pay tax on it. Even if you are moving you should still not have to pay tax if you sell the house you are moving from ie. you are a one property owner.

When you start buying second/third houses then these are not essential items and in this case stamp seems very reasonable to me.

garred

grumpytrousers wrote:

Aye, but nobody 'needs' a second house as much as they 'need' the first house; thus the current system of higher stamp duty on 'investment' properties seems pretty fair...

Nobody needs a pension? Well thats what a second/investment property is for a lot of people. People with second properties pay plenty of tax. If you think about it.........you get taxed on your income. With that income you save to pay for a deposit for your second/investment home. You get taxed on this in the form of Stamp Duty. If you rent out this property you get taxed on the rental income. If you then go to sell this property you pay tax in the form of Capital Gains. WTF!!!

Pity there is'nt a system whereby you can forgo the state pension in favour of tax breaks on your second property.

MorningStar

Peace wrote:

Stamp & VAT are the same thing then are they???:rolleyes:

VAT is a tax placed on non essential goods. IMO a house is an essential good.

They are both basically taxes is all I am saying. It was direct response to the complaint that they didn't like paying tax twice. The theory would mean you pay no tax on goods on the ground you pay tax on your wages.

Peace wrote:

Whats more important than putting walls and a roof around your family? Maybe food/water/clothers....

A weighted tax based on value of property where people pay a portion based on their house. Some houses are luxuries not essentials

Peace wrote:

It would be a much better system for people to be excempt from stamp if they only own one property (regardless of FTB or not). I would like to see people who own multiple proprties getting raped for stamp.

So somebody buys a 3 million pound home and pay no tax (stamp duty). That sounds like a real fair equal system. Most people who own mulitple properties are using these properties to provide a rentable service. Believe it or not landlords are actually essential to provide accomadation for a good portion of this country.

Peace wrote:

To the OP... Its an excellent question but i don't think there is a way of getting stamp tax back. If there were i would imagine everyone would be doing it. Unfortunately i am in the position of facing a €9600 stamp bill in the next couple of months and the only way of getting around it would be highly illegal (but the option has been offered to me by two seperate estate agents in the last week or so).

I should be complain a lot more than you then. I paid ove €21k in stamp duty a year and a half ago.
THe system is not perfect. I think it makes sense that there should be an individual stamp duty limit to enable housing stock turnover. If you paid stamp duty in the last 15 years that can be deducted from tha amount of stamp duty you would pay now. This way not crashing house prices or allowing builders to just pocket the amount (if it was simply removed)

rooferPete

Hi lomb,

Just short note to lighten the deep tone of this topic, an old gent very highly educated and a staunch socialist but with a great sense of humour asked me the definition of an Irish Socialist ?

After long thought and a speech the Labour Party and rich vs poor etc, He

No Son, An Irish Socialist is just a Capitalist without money .

MorningStar,

I firmly believe that the stamp duty especially on first time buyers is nothing short of a Penal Tax that has been allowed to continue without justification.

For owners / buyers of second and more properties I also believe that unless they are shown as the primary pension of the individual they should :

Pay Rates,

No rollovers on Capital Gains,

A larger tax allowance to renters of properties to encourage them to make sure they are getting the full tax relief which in turn would point direct to he income levels of the property owner.

Surprise, I own more than one property, my folio is wide and varied but does not include Apartments or multi tennant houses.
.

grumpytrousers

garred wrote:

Nobody needs a pension? Well thats what a second/investment property is for a lot of people. People with second properties pay plenty of tax. If you think about it.........you get taxed on your income. With that income you save to pay for a deposit for your second/investment home. You get taxed on this in the form of Stamp Duty. If you rent out this property you get taxed on the rental income. If you then go to sell this property you pay tax in the form of Capital Gains. WTF!!!

Pity there is'nt a system whereby you can forgo the state pension in favour of tax breaks on your second property.

Tough! Get over it! On a smaller scale I get done over the EXACT same way on my shares in Bank of Ireland. I have to pay stamp duty on the purchase. I pay tax on the dividends and I have to pay capital Gains Tax if I'm lucky enough to sell it on at a profit. But the profit tends to outweigh the burden of the duty. The amount of people who invest in property given the level of duty implies that it's still a doable for a lot of people.

Peace

MorningStar wrote:

A weighted tax based on value of property where people pay a portion based on their house. Some houses are luxuries not essentials


So somebody buys a 3 million pound home and pay no tax (stamp duty). That sounds like a real fair equal system. Most people who own mulitple properties are using these properties to provide a rentable service. Believe it or not landlords are actually essential to provide accomadation for a good portion of this country.

It all depends on the part of the coutry you decide to live in. FTB's in dublin have a hard time finding proprty under €317,500 where as if i were from Donegal/Kerry then €317,500 would go a looong way.

I would have no problem at all moving out of Dublin to the West but my partner's job is very specialised therefore we are semi stuck in Dublin.

If you have the 3million euro to spend on a house then fire away, I wouldn't be bothered about that person not paying taxes [on the house purchase!]. I would like to see it become easier for the average Joe to get a house for themselves and stamp makes it that little bit harder for those of us that can't seem to get a place under 317,500.

garred

grumpytrousers wrote:

Tough! Get over it! On a smaller scale I get done over the EXACT same way on my shares in Bank of Ireland. I have to pay stamp duty on the purchase. I pay tax on the dividends and I have to pay capital Gains Tax if I'm lucky enough to sell it on at a profit. But the profit tends to outweigh the burden of the duty. The amount of people who invest in property given the level of duty implies that it's still a doable for a lot of people.

Not bitching just showing the tax issue with relation to the comment about "raping" people with more than one home. I accept I have to pay tax but what bugs me is comments that anyone with more than one home is creaming it and should be taxed to the hilt.

MorningStar

rooferPete wrote:

MorningStar,

I firmly believe that the stamp duty especially on first time buyers is nothing short of a Penal Tax that has been allowed to continue without justification.

For owners / buyers of second and more properties I also believe that unless they are shown as the primary pension of the individual they should :


.

I see the point about it being a penalty but as with most things the answer is not simply remove it. It is obvious that the prices would rise if the stamp duty were removed. Any thing to benifit the buyer will really benifit the seller.
Two houses for pensions maybe three houses gets the situation where rich people don't pay tax.
Something needs to change but it needs to be balanced and all effects considered. A simple removal probably is a bad idea. Maybe a method to get some of the money back or I would prefer a credit system so you don't keep paying stamp duty if you upgrade

Kinetic^

The only way you'll get tax relief for paying stamp duty is when you buy an investment property, sell it and have to pay CGT.

You can add the stamp duty to the cost of purchase, which in turn will reduce your CGT liability.

MorningStar

garred wrote:

Not bitching just showing the tax issue with relation to the comment about "raping" people with more than one home. I accept I have to pay tax but what bugs me is comments that anyone with more than one home is creaming it and should be taxed to the hilt.

AS a lndlord (owning more than one house) I provide a service needed in Dublin city. I pay 42% tax on all rental income and if I sell I pay capital gains. That is plenty of tax and without landlords the city would be in trouble. I am, not creaming anything

My Family paid higher taxes and huge interest rates on their property over the years they have paid there way can't see any reason why they should pay more now after providing years of service.

garred

MorningStar wrote:

AS a lndlord (owning more than one house) I provide a service needed in Dublin city. I pay 42% tax on all rental income and if I sell I pay capital gains. That is plenty of tax and without landlords the city would be in trouble. I am, not creaming anything

My Family paid higher taxes and huge interest rates on their property over the years they have paid there way can't see any reason why they should pay more now after providing years of service.

You must of misread what I said.

grumpytrousers

garred wrote:

Not bitching just showing the tax issue with relation to the comment about "raping" people with more than one home. I accept I have to pay tax but what bugs me is comments that anyone with more than one home is creaming it and should be taxed to the hilt.

Fair enough; my exhortion to 'get over it' may, by the way, have come accross as a trifle grouchy...that was not the intention. On a broader more, um, holistic scale it's pretty much endemic that unless you're really rich, and by that, I mean almost literally sh*tting money, you'll get ridden on tax anyway. It's just a question of when, or how. There are very few of us who have the €€€ to fork into a multi-story carpark, a hospital or a horse - and so there is an inequality at work anyway.

However, when we get down to the level of ordinary joes, the fact of the mater is, IMHO, that if you're lucky enough to be able to afford a second property, then a higher level of stamp duty than the FTB pays would seem to be fairest. It's true, you're getting penalised for being prudent with your money; you're taking a hit 'cos you choose not to blow your spare money on whores and gin or whatever, but that's just the way...

MorningStar

grumpytrousers wrote:

However, when we get down to the level of ordinary joes, the fact of the mater is, IMHO, that if you're lucky enough to be able to afford a second property, then a higher level of stamp duty than the FTB pays would seem to be fairest. It's true, you're getting penalised for being prudent with your money; you're taking a hit 'cos you choose not to blow your spare money on whores and gin or whatever, but that's just the way...

That already happens so are you happy with how it works now you know?;)

grumpytrousers

MorningStar wrote:

That already happens so are you happy with how it works now you know?;)

Yes. I mean, I think. I was trying to, I suppose, highlight that one persons opinion of being 'raped on stamp duty' is another persons belief that if one is fortunate enough to be able to invest/speculate/earn from property, then one should see stamp duty as just another cost of business. I think most professional landlords do...it's the sideliners that seem to feel more hard done by...As I don't invest in property, and the OP has been answered - no you can't claw back money you ponied up for stamp duty - I'll get me coat. I've whores and gin to, er, splash out on...

lomb

grumpytrousers wrote:

I've whores and gin to, er, splash out on...

and ul waste the rest:D

lomb

rooferPete wrote:

Hi lomb,

Just short note to lighten the deep tone of this topic, an old gent very highly educated and a staunch socialist but with a great sense of humour asked me the definition of an Irish Socialist ?

After long thought and a speech the Labour Party and rich vs poor etc, He

No Son, An Irish Socialist is just a Capitalist without money .

thats funny that coming from a socialist probably means he is one of the only true socialists:D
disagree with the rates on residential, number of reasons, firstly its passed on to the tenant, the tenant always pays the rates, and any other taxes etc
secondly if they did that i dont think rates would be too far away on owner occupiers.
at the end of the day residential property is just that, whether its rented or for owner occupiers, people live in it...its like healthcare, a fundamental requirement. penalising it because its rented goes against the funtamentals of property rights that date back eons(landlords and tenants). just my two cents..

RainyDay

MorningStar wrote:

I pay 42% tax on all rental income

All rental income? So you don't deduct your mortgage interest and other expenses from your income before calculating your tax bill?