20 Years of The PDs

Elmo

So Micheal McDowell annouanced at the 20 years celebration that Sinn Fein were looking to hold the balance of power after the next election. Gasp.

So Micheal is Sinn Fein all you talk about? What about your own party holding the balance of power. I didn't realise that you were the offical Sinn Fein Spokeman.

Then he when on to say what a wonderful job the PDs have done

Yes the PD's brought about the Cletic Tiger.

But don't mention the huge increase in Crime since Micheal has been Minister for Justice or that Poor Boy that die in Garda custody.

Or the Health Service Pay System.

Yes long live the pd

maccor

yes, long live the PDS and michael Mc D. I just hope SF lasts long enough otherwise Michael will run out of topics of discussion.

Hear him on the radio on Sun morning? Boy but he was off on a rant. Shinners are all marxists apparently, hiding their true ideologies behind a facade of some kind. God but the man is terribly paranoid.

Time Magazine

maccor wrote:

Hear him on the radio on Sun morning? Boy but he was off on a rant. Shinners are all marxists apparently, hiding their true ideologies behind a facade of some kind.

Well they do declare themselves Marxists even though their main aim is unification of a single country, so
I'd sort of agree with Micky D's comment.

mike65

As a grown up and someone well long enugh in the tooth to remember life in Ireland before the PDs I suggest all you nay-sayers should be on your knees thanking God they came into existance, both for the policies they espouced but also cos it proved that its possible to reform Fianna Fail - from the outside! The FFers were a bunch of gangsters by the mid 80s (far worse than anything now) and it took the bottle of O Malley, Harney etc to bring them down a peg or two simply by leaving and forming a party, its a pity McCrevey
did'nt join them as he was planning to do.

I guess its ironic they then spend much of the next twenty years in coalition with FF but trust me if they were'nt there we'd all be much worse off.

Mike.

jank

Its all politics from the PD's

They are all afraid that Sinn Fein will become that party that FF will find it easier to cossy up to in the future, leaving them with nothing but memories of a happy past and an extinct future. It wont happen in the next election but the election in 2010/2011 is the one they fear.

Supposeably Dell, Intel and all the multinationals will all leave Ireland if they come to power. Sinn Fein may have a more Socialist outlook than most but is it that more Socialist then Labour? Have those mulitnationals come out and said this?

PD scaremongering at its best. If they ignore Sinn Fein and concentrate on their own government we would be much better off....(Cue remarks about sinn fein in power = dictatorship:rolleyes: )

Thing is I have never voted Sinn Fein but not saying i never will I just hate cheap politics of this kind that the PD's seem so good at.

Cork

jank wrote:

Supposeably Dell, Intel and all the multinationals will all leave Ireland if they come to power.

Adams lacked any understanding of basic economics on Prime Time. The PDs delivered on lower personal taxes.

Michael McDowell was not afraid to make a stand aganist SF/IRA.

Their contribution has been pretty positive.

Diorraing

20 years too much. What was it McDowell said about inequality being a good thing? The fact that the PDs wield so much power highlights a major flaw in our democratic system. I bet the majority of FF voters didn't want their vote to be a vote that would also put the PDs in power (its the same with most parties). They should at least pay heed to where most FF transfers went (presumably Labour/SF/Green)

ratboy

Sinn Fein are looking to hold the balnce of power. It's a fact, why wouldn't they be? Micheal MacDowell is just stating the blaringly obvious, i don't know why you criticise him for that. The PDs have partially nuliified the complete incompetence of Fianna Fail and though i am a gainst most of their righter than right ideaologies, we should be thankful for that at least.

AngelofFire

Shinners are all marxists apparently, hiding their true ideologies behind a facade of some kind.

As a Marxist, i find the claim that all Sinn Fein people are somehow marxist insulting, Look at their record up north in intorducing PPPs in the health and education system.

maccor

Cork wrote:

Adams lacked any understanding of basic economics on Prime Time. The PDs delivered on lower personal taxes.

Michael McDowell was not afraid to make a stand aganist SF/IRA.

Their contribution has been pretty positive.

Michael McDowell has not been making any kind of stand. He has been giving the press false impressions of SF, making up things willy nilly. the PDs have a very very small percentage of the vote, yet they weild so much power - i dont find their contribution as being pretty positive at all. positive for the wealthier of the country maybe, not the recently reported 25% of the population who fall below the poverty line.

Im sure Adams is well tuned to the basic economics of Ireland. I htink its a bandwagon many people get on, this idea that SF have no grasp of economics. Many people say SF have no economic policies, but thats usually down to lack of research on SF policies inthe first place. I think its ingenius to insist he ' lacked any understanding '. In your opinion maybe, but you should state that.

It doesnt get away from the fact that McDowell has a SF fixation and it seems to be the mainstay of his political utterings in the past year or two.

ionapaul

Carthago delenda est!

I don't mind McDowell continually warning the public about SF, the public need to be warned / informed.

The history of the PDs and their formation is very interesting, the gangsterism of the FF party in the early '80s was astounding, I wouldn't be surprised if in 40 years Haughty is reviled in the history books as the most corrupt and immoral Irish leader ever. I equally wouldn't be surprised if he was held up as the greatest Irish leader ever!

maccor

ionapaul wrote:

C

I don't mind McDowell continually warning the public about SF, the public need to be warned / informed.

Theres a difference between informing the public of genuine concerns and bad mouthing the opposition with unsupported half truths. McDowell basically lies alot when he starts his anti SF rethoric. Politicians lie enough as it is, we dont need more of it.

Elmo

I basically just hate the way Michael McDowell has fooled everyone in this country into believing he has done sooooo much for this country.

1. A 14 year old boy dies in Garda Custody, and he or his friends in FF don't dissolve government because of his bad handling of the situation.
2. Crime has increased in the past 4 years of his reign as Justice Minster and 8 years of FF/PD power. He doesn't mention this. Oh we wait in hope of ASBOs
3. He Divides and Conquers. The Referendum of Citizenship was just a waste of money as a Supreme court Judge had already ruled that Children born in Ireland could be deported with their Parents. It was just another case of how no real system has been put in place for immigrates.
4. How many articles has he write for the Times and Indo and how many times his he on the TV and Radio more then any other Minister and all he does is to warn us of Sinn Fein and the IRA. It is pathetic that he never talks about Garda corruption in Donegal and other issue which effect his Department.
5. The PD/FF Government of 1989 -1992, where Ireland was in the worst possible situation in relation to Immigrate out of Ireland and Dole Queues.

He is a waste of Space. Don't waste your time on his Propaganda, Anti-Liberal, Conservative, Nazis views.

Also Mike65

The FFers were a bunch of gangsters by the mid 80s (far worse than anything now)

1. The PD's went into Government with Charlie Haughey
2. The PD's went into Government with Charlie's Lap Dog Bertie.

Yeah the PD's cared about about corruption, no they care about Money and Power.

mike65

Elmo wrote:

Also Mike65


1. The PD's went into Government with Charlie Haughey
2. The PD's went into Government with Charlie's Lap Dog Bertie.

Yeah the PD's cared about about corruption, no they care about Money and Power.

and I said

I guess its ironic they then spend much of the next twenty years in coalition with FF but trust me if they were'nt there we'd all be much worse off.

Once FF had been eyeballed by some of thier own and had blinked first Haugheys' days were numbered.

Mike.

Elmo

Once FF had been eyeballed by some of thier own and had blinked first Haugheys' days were numbered.

Huge problem I have with Labour/FF government. Dick Spring should have stayed in Government, regardless rather then letting go of a good government and good people in the FF party.

But then the huge problem I have with FF/PD government was that Mr. Burke became a Minister.

There are many good things we can say about the FF governments of the '80's, like their are many bad things about the PDs.

The PD's shouldn't be so smug. They weren't the only people in the FF party that didn't want Charlie. I think Albert Renolds and Dick Spring did more for Ireland then any of the successive governments.

mike65

Elmo wrote:

Huge problem I have with Labour/FF government. Dick Spring should have stayed in Government, regardless rather then letting go of a good government and good people in the FF party.

Drifting OT but do you remember the reaction of many who voted in the Spring Tide once Dick fell for the promise of 9 billion pounds to play with?
They were shocked and appalled (including my mother!). People thought they had voted out FF, its not a surprise they lost half thier seats at the next selection.

Mike.

Sand

He is a waste of Space. Don't waste your time on his Propaganda, Anti-Liberal, Conservative, Nazis views.

Hes actually the only decent politician in Ireland tbh. Hes (rightly) criticised SFIRA for their criminality and disregard for our democratic principles long before it became fashionable, and the likes of the McCartney murder where a bar full of SFIRA politicians didnt see anything has completely vindicated him.

The PDs have also been completely vindicated in their philosophy in that , despite bitter and myopic attacks by supposed intellectuals/commentators, it is now seen as the "common sense" approach to the economy. So much so that Bertie felt it necessary to say that he wouldnt go with SFIRA after the election because he knows any attempt to rock the boat economy wise scares the voters. Hes lying of course, Bertie would happily reach a deal with SFIRA over the PDs - remember him furiously denying he has secretly agreed with SFIRA that they would have speaking rights in the Dail in exchange for their August declaration? Never he said. No, what he meant was to give SFIRA speaking rights to a Dail comittee comprised of all the TDs, which would be held in the Dail chamber. Totally different.

jank

jank wrote:

Sinn Fein may have a more Socialist outlook than most but is it that more Socialist then Labour? Have those mulitnationals come out and said this?

Ah they'll dump most of that if they go into coalition.As regards the multi nationals, they will do whatever suits the bottom line.
SF are no threat to them as any government it forms part of wouldnt do most of whats in the SF manifesto.

PD scaremongering at its best. If they ignore Sinn Fein and concentrate on their own government we would be much better off....

But shur what has any party got to do , only give out about its ideological rival.Thats par for the course.

(Cue remarks about sinn fein in power = dictatorship:rolleyes: )

Doubt it as at best they could only enter a coalition with an agreed programme and I doubt any of the available suiters would agree to Economically damaging policies.

Thing is I have never voted Sinn Fein but not saying i never will I just hate cheap politics of this kind that the PD's seem so good at.

They are just espousing their values whether one agrees with them or not is up to the voter.

maccor wrote:

Theres a difference between informing the public of genuine concerns and bad mouthing the opposition with unsupported half truths. McDowell basically lies alot when he starts his anti SF rethoric. Politicians lie enough as it is, we dont need more of it.

My basic difficulty with that is the lack of a law suit-ever, not one nada nothing.
If he is lying then he should be shown to be lying -otherwise he is legitimately entitled to continue giving his views without them being described as lies.

KieranusTyranus

Mcdowell does absolutely nothing but complain about Sinn Fein. It might be a contreversial view but I support Sinn Fein. Also that Cafe Bar idea was the most ridiculous thing I ever. The PDs have no support outside of Dublin.

PS. Did you ever notice that anything bad that happens seems to be the IRAs fault according to McD? When his holiday home had one shotgun blast fired at it he blamed the IRA. Im sure the IRA can figure out better assasinations than firing a shotgun from a distance at an empty house.

Elmo

Hes actually the only decent politician in Ireland tbh. Hes (rightly) criticised SFIRA for their criminality and disregard for our democratic principles long before it became fashionable, and the likes of the McCartney murder where a bar full of SFIRA politicians didnt see anything has completely vindicated him.

This is my problem that's all he does give out about SF or the IRA. He doesn't do what he is supposed to do and that is to run the Justice system rather he talks about SF/IRA.

ratboy

KieranusTyranus wrote:

Mcdowell does absolutely nothing but complain about Sinn Fein. It might be a contreversial view but I support Sinn Fein. Also that Cafe Bar idea was the most ridiculous thing I ever. The PDs have no support outside of Dublin.

PS. Did you ever notice that anything bad that happens seems to be the IRAs fault according to McD? When his holiday home had one shotgun blast fired at it he blamed the IRA. Im sure the IRA can figure out better assasinations than firing a shotgun from a distance at an empty house.

Why was the cafe bar idea the most ridiculous idea ever? In many european countries they have opened up their licences for these cafe bars and it has stopped the massive influx of people spilling onto the street at closing time. The only reason why it was defeated was the states corrupt relationship with the pub industry. Alos explain your reasons for supporting those murdering scumbags Sinn Fein.

Elmo

Name something good the Minister has done don't just throw out cheep retroical questions.

Alos explain your reasons for supporting those murdering scumbags Sinn Fein.

Do you really want me to go through what happened in the north and the other murdering scumbags in that part of the country? Helped by a government.

No McDowell forgets about them.

Name something that McDowell has doen as Minister for Justice that has been good for this country?

Don't just go for the classic option of when all else fails bring up Sinn Fein. You would think that people don't vote for other parties.

fly_agaric

ratboy wrote:

Why was the cafe bar idea the most ridiculous idea ever? In many european countries they have opened up their licences for these cafe bars and it has stopped the massive influx of people spilling onto the street at closing time. The only reason why it was defeated was the states corrupt relationship with the pub industry. Alos explain your reasons for supporting those murdering scumbags Sinn Fein.

Has it really. I'd like to read about that if you have any links. I'm too lazy to look.:D
Anyway in my opinion:
Ireland is a northern European country where alot of people do most of their drinking to get drunk - not because it goes down well with a bit of food (although we're starting to do that too while still keeping the drink to get drunk ethos for nights out). Alot of people will just use these café bars as yet another place you can get some poison before you hit your main course of alcoholic sustenance in a pub or club later on - or to drink themselves under the table after the pubs close. Maybe it will cut down on aggro on the streets at closing time but it will mean people will drink even more than they do now. Not good really, but nice ka-ching for the PeeDee's friends and to hell with the consequences.

ratboy wrote:

The fact that the PDs wield so much power highlights a major flaw in our democratic system.

So true. Doesn't the PeeDee's level of support fluctuate close to the margin of error in polls and yet they have been almost running the fécking country for the last 2 governments. What's up with that?:rolleyes:

mike65

ratboy wrote:

The only reason why it was defeated was the states corrupt relationship with the pub industry.

Actually its Fianna Fails relationship to the vitners thats the problem, the back benchers either are pub owners or have someone in thier immediate family who is. The cafe idea was an exellent one.

Originally Posted by fly_agaric
Has it really. I'd like to read about that if you have any links. I'm too lazy to look

:rolleyes:

Mike.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

fly_agaric

mike65 wrote:

:rolleyes:

Oh no... I've been rolleyed for being lazy. I guess you won't be providing me with evidence that the café bar idea will help with rather than make worse the problem of alcohol in Irish society then? Or did you just like the idea of sitting outside a café bar in D4 with an expensive micro-brew late on a sunny Friday evening, watching the world go by and pretending you are in Italy or Spain?

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Don't ask me. I've spoilt my vote for the last 2 general elections! I feel another rolleyes coming on. I may vote for Labour in the next one. You've depressed me even more saying that the PeeDee's and their greed-is-good Ayn Rynd bullcrap is the pivot of the Irish political system.

That said, I liked McDowell's idea about active promotion of ethnic diversity in the guards. Very clever and far-sighted. I was also impressed with him having the bálls to actually try and control immigation.

PhoenixRising

The PD's deserve a lot of credit for hauling Irish politics back from the brink in the 80's. They were they only politicians with backbone who were willing to stand up and not take any more of the crap that was going on in Irish politics.

About the only politician I can say I have respect for these days is Michael McDowell. He's an intelligent, articulate and resolute politician who takes crap off nobody, especially the Sinn Fein terrorists/knackers (delete as appropriate).

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Yeah I'd like to see him as Tanaiste also - about the only decent politician we have in Ireland at the moment.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

He doesn't... run the Justice system...

That's a pretty serious allegation. Presumably you have lots of supporting evidence.

And no, the fact that the number of extra guards promised in the program for government haven't been recruited yet doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

oscarBravo

fly_agaric wrote:

You've depressed me even more saying that the PeeDee's and their greed-is-good Ayn Rynd bullcrap is the pivot of the Irish political system.

I've read Atlas Shrugged at least twice. I honestly can't see any real comparison between the philosophy it espouses and the PDs' policies. I also don't recall any PD member saying "greed is good".

mike65

fly_agaric, Daveirl should be credited for the following

So out of interest who would you like to run the country because without PR we'd probably only have a choice of an FF government or an FG one. Possibly an FG/Lab government but it's be like the UK. The whole point of our system is that the PDs hold the balance of power, just as Sinn Fein are trying to do.

Mike.

Elmo

And no, the fact that the number of extra guards promised in the program for government haven't been recruited yet doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

Oh another thing he hasn't done. I had forgotten, thanks for reminding me.

So what has he done. Exactly as Minister for Justice? MMMMMMM

Haven't seen anything, have see what he hasn't done.

Oh the DNA DB, well thats about 10 years too late.

The PD have deleivered on advancements in Technology like Broadband, Digital TV and all the other things we don't have that we should of had 10 years ago.

I just love the way the PDs have absolutely made sure that they make it look as though they have done something when really they have yet to do anything.

And when I asked what did Micheal McDowell do as Minister for Justice I have yet to get a Concrete Answer.

Here come the rolling eyes. :rolleyes:

Do the PD's hold the Balance of power as far as I know FF didn't need them to get back and even if they did they could have gone with the Greens or Dare I say it Sinn Fein. FF held the balance of which small party got to have a big job in the Government.

maccor

Earthman wrote:

.My basic difficulty with that is the lack of a law suit-ever, not one nada nothing.
If he is lying then he should be shown to be lying -otherwise he is legitimately entitled to continue giving his views without them being described as lies.

yes, but who is going to prove him wrong? Sinn Fein? they wouldnt get into a dirty debate at this stage, in fact theyve a history of letting things lie when it comes to attacks on their credibility. Its a standard to slag off SF as they are a political partys worst nightmare so no-one is going to stand in mcdowells way.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

Oh another thing he hasn't done. I had forgotten, thanks for reminding me.

I'm helpful like that.

Elmo wrote:

So what has he done. Exactly as Minister for Justice? MMMMMMM

Haven't seen anything, have see what he hasn't done.

Oh the DNA DB, well thats about 10 years too late.

The PD have deleivered on advancements in Technology like Broadband, Digital TV and all the other things we don't have that we should of had 10 years ago.

I just love the way the PDs have absolutely made sure that they make it look as though they have done something when really they have yet to do anything.

And when I asked what did Micheal McDowell do as Minister for Justice I have yet to get a Concrete Answer.

Just a stab in the dark here, but I'm guessing that he did his job and ran the Department of Justice.

Of course, you've claimed that he hasn't done that, so obviously you know more about it than me. You've yet to substantiate that allegation, though. Unless you believe the job of the Minister for Justice consists solely of delivering DNA databases, digital TV and broadband, I don't see that you've made that case at all.

Elmo

digital TV and broadband

They where generalisms about the PD/FF government.

Again I will repeat what he hasn't done in case you didn't read them

1. A 14 year old boy dies in Garda Custody, and he or his friends in FF don't dissolve government because of his bad handling of the situation.
2. Crime has increased in the past 4 years of his reign as Justice Minster and 8 years of FF/PD power. He doesn't mention this. Oh we wait in hope of ASBOs
3. He Divides and Conquers. The Referendum of Citizenship was just a waste of money as a Supreme court Judge had already ruled that Children born in Ireland could be deported with their Parents. It was just another case of how no real system has been put in place for immigrates.
4. How many articles has he write for the Times and Indo and how many times his he on the TV and Radio more then any other Minister and all he does is to warn us of Sinn Fein and the IRA. It is pathetic that he never talks about Garda corruption in Donegal and other issue which effect his Department.

Now if you call that good Justice then good for you but I won't consider that good justice.


The PD's have resided over a government which has a department called

Communications, Marine and Natural Resourse

Perhaps 3 of the most important Departments are in the one Department and the have nothing to do with each other.

What sh1t.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

They where generalisms about the PD/FF government.

Right. So, nothing to do with McDowell not doing his job. Gotcha.

Elmo wrote:

Again I will repeat what he hasn't done in case you didn't read them

I read them. If you operate on the assumption that the only responsibilities of the Minister for Justice are to personally guarantee the safe custody of minors in Garda stations, to single-handedly lower crime rates, to fail to introduce referenda and to avoid mentioning Sinn Féin in radio and newspaper articles, then I guess you could argue that he hasn't done his job.

Forgive me while I work on the assumption that there's a little more to the job than that.

Elmo wrote:

Now if you call that good Justice then good for you but I won't consider that good justice.

We're not talking about good or bad justice; we're talking about your unfounded allegation that the man hasn't done his job.

Elmo wrote:

The PD's have resided over a government which has a department called

Communications, Marine and Natural Resourse

Perhaps 3 of the most important Departments are in the one Department and the have nothing to do with each other.

Now you're really confusing me. Not only does that have nothing whatsoever to do with Michael McDowell - it's not even a department with a PD minister.

Clutching at straws?

BuffyBot

Now if you call that good Justice...

You do realise there is a bit more to the job than that....still a pretty unsubstantiated allegation tbh

Elmo

Now you're really confusing me. Not only does that have nothing whatsoever to do with Michael McDowell - it's not even a department with a PD minister.

Clutching at straws?

So as long as a Department in the Government has nothing to do with the PD's then they have no Responiblity.

But wait I thought they where partners in the Government.

IMO for were Ireland lies in the world of Economics the Department of Communications is Highly important, In relation to where Ireland lies in the World of Economics the Department of Natural Resources is Highly important (I am sure the PDs will agree that we cannot continue to rely on Oil and Coal, we should be to the fore of Wind power, Hydroelectic power and Rape Seed Oil production). and finally the Department of Marine is Hugely important to an Island.

Just because a PD is not in a position of power within that department does not mean that the PDs have no responiblity to make sure that that one department is 3.

Lets face it McDowell has stated that the PD did loads for NI. but according to you he does have anything to do with that part of the Government (Foreign Affairs).

I read them. If you operate on the assumption that the only responsibilities of the Minister for Justice are to personally guarantee the safe custody of minors in Garda stations, to single-handedly lower crime rates, to fail to introduce referenda and to avoid mentioning Sinn Féin in radio and newspaper articles, then I guess you could argue that he hasn't done his job.

Yes it is the responsiblity of the Department of Justice to insure that everyone in this country is treated equally. If I was Minister for Justice and I had found out about the Death of A Child while in Police Custody I would be very very annoyed and would be down at the station ASAP.

Maura Geoghegan Quinn was Minister For Justice during the X-Case and that cost that Government Dearly. The one thing the government should be annoyed at is the Death of A child in Police Custody. Why did it happen? It took 14 months before the Minster even responded to this issue.

But you are right it is not the Minister for Juctices job to Give out about Sinn Fein but thats all he does in Newspapers, on the Radio and Television. I have no problem with him doing it but he does it too often, and as siad by other posters Sinn Fein are an easy political Target.

I have given you a list of thing that he hasn't done, he has not reduce crime he has not increased garda presence, 2 of his main repsoniblities. What ever about the other stuff he hasn't done but he hasn't done that.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He has huge Reponsiblities

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

So as long as a Department in the Government has nothing to do with the PD's then they have no Responiblity.

But wait I thought they where partners in the Government.

I thought we were talking about Michael McDowell not doing his job as Minister for Justice? Unless that the DCMNR is somehow subsidiary to the DoJ, I don't see the connection.

Elmo wrote:

IMO for were Ireland lies in the world of Economics the Department of Communications is Highly important, In relation to where Ireland lies in the World of Economics the Department of Natural Resources is Highly important (I am sure the PDs will agree that we cannot continue to rely on Oil and Coal, we should be to the fore of Wind power, Hydroelectic power and Rape Seed Oil production). and finally the Department of Marine is Hugely important to an Island.

Just because a PD is not in a position of power within that department does not mean that the PDs have no responiblity to make sure that that one department is 3.

OK, but what does that have to do with the specific responsibilities of the Minister for Justice, whom you claim hasn't done his job?

Elmo wrote:

Lets face it McDowell has stated that the PD did loads for NI. but according to you he does have anything to do with that part of the Government (Foreign Affairs).

Liz O'Donnell played a pivotal role in the peace process while she was Minister of State at the DoFA. Not that that has anything to do with whether or not the Minister for Justice is doing his job.

Elmo wrote:

Yes it is the responsiblity of the Department of Justice to insure that everyone in this country is treated equally. If I was Minister for Justice and I had found out about the Death of A Child while in Police Custody I would be very very annoyed and would be down at the station ASAP.

Maura Geoghegan Quinn was Minister For Justice during the X-Case and that cost that Government Dearly. The one thing the government should be annoyed at is the Death of A child in Police Custody. Why did it happen? It took 14 months before the Minster even responded to this issue.

Unless responding to this one specific incident is the sum total of his job description, it doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

Elmo wrote:

I have given you a list of thing that he hasn't done, he has not reduce crime he has not increased garda presence, 2 of his main repsoniblities. What ever about the other stuff he hasn't done but he hasn't done that.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He has huge Reponsiblities

Until you list them in detail, and demonstrate that he has failed to meet any of them, your assertion that he's not doing his job remains unfounded (and a serious allegation, to boot).

Elmo

Liz O'Donnell played a pivotal role in the peace process while she was Minister of State at the DoFA. Not that that has anything to do with whether or not the Minister for Justice is doing his job.

I have more time for her, but she isn't the sum of all parts remember.

Until you list them in detail, and demonstrate that he has failed to meet any of them, your assertion that he's not doing his job remains unfounded (and a serious allegation, to boot).

So far you havn't shown me that he is doing a good job, I am sure he is doing something but not much.

I thought we were talking about Michael McDowell not doing his job as Minister for Justice? Unless that the DCMNR is somehow subsidiary to the DoJ, I don't see the connection.

Actually we are talking about The last 20 years of the PD and what they have done.

I am saying that DCMNR is not a good dept and both the Government (FF/PD) and the Civil Service should be embarest about such a mish mash of a Department.

Unless responding to this one specific incident is the sum total of his job description, it doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

IMO its a very ****ing large incident. Let me repeat that incident for:-

CHILD DIES IN GARDA CUSTODY

HUGE.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

So far you havn't shown me that he is doing a good job, I am sure he is doing something but not much.

You're the one that made the serious allegation. My assumption is that, by and large, he's doing his job. If you have information to the contrary, apart from one incident (which I'll come to in a minute), please share it.

Elmo wrote:

Actually we are talking about The last 20 years of the PD and what they have done.

I'm specifically challenging you to back up a serious allegation you made in the context of that discussion. You're failing to do so, which leads me to believe you have no evidence to support your accusation.

Elmo wrote:

I am saying that DCMNR is not a good dept and both the Government (FF/PD) and the Civil Service should be embarest about such a mish mash of a Department.

I have my own issues with the DCMNR, but to use them as a stick to beat the PDs with is, frankly, pathetic - especially given that it's not a department they're directly responsible for.

Elmo wrote:

IMO its a very ****ing large incident. Let me repeat that incident for:-

CHILD DIES IN GARDA CUSTODY

HUGE.

It's a big deal, certainly. Are you suggesting that if McDowell were doing his job, the child would not have died in Garda custody?

Elmo

I have my own issues with the DCMNR, but to use them as a stick to beat the PDs with is, frankly, pathetic - especially given that it's not a department they're directly responsible for.

No indeed but you can praise the PDs for the little that they have done. Dick Spring did alot for NI don't forget that but yes I feel that Liz O'Donnel is the most professional politican that the PD have she IMO should be a minister not McDowell.

I am basically saying that you can certainly take a look at all of the good things that the PDs have done but don't forget about what they haven't done.

DCMNR is one case
Increased Garda Presence is another
Crime is another

It's a big deal, certainly. Are you suggesting that if McDowell were doing his job, the child would not have died in Garda custody?

No! It would have happened and it is the worst thing that could have happened.

BUT

When Hugh Orde annouanced that it was the IRA that committed the northern bank Robbery, McDowell was on the Radio, TV and in the Newspapers spouting about the IRA and Sinn Fein.

YET

A young boy and his family don't count because they don't pose as a polictical threat so Mr. McDowell doesn't immediately make a statement.

While I am sure Mr. McDowell does a Job he is not Doing a good one. IMO.

And I feel that all of what I have says shows how afraid Mr. McDowell is of lossing power and that is currently what he has his eye. LOSS OF POWER.

Rather he should keep an eye on what he is there to do be Minister for Justice.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

No indeed but you can praise the PDs for the little that they have done.

I don't recall praising the PDs.

Elmo wrote:

I am basically saying that you can certainly take a look at all of the good things that the PDs have done but don't forget about what they haven't done.

DCMNR is one case
Increased Garda Presence is another
Crime is another

OK, I get that you don't like the PDs. What I took issue with is your assertion that Michael McDowell doesn't do his job.

Elmo wrote:

A young boy and his family don't count because they don't pose as a polictical threat so Mr. McDowell doesn't immediately make a statement.

You keep repeating that point, and I keep replying that it doesn't mean that he's not running his department.

Elmo wrote:

While I am sure Mr. McDowell does a Job he is not Doing a good one. IMO.

OK, so you were wrong when you said he's not doing his job: he is doing his job, but you're not happy with the way he's doing it. Right?

maccor

thats one strange way of debating . I think Elmo has made his/herself very clear and oscarbravo seems to be clutching at straws to keep the debate going. just my opinion mind you.

Elmo

I don't recall praising the PDs.

Sorry, I meant you Cann't and wasn't actually refering to you specifically.

OK, so you were wrong when you said he's not doing his job: he is doing his job, but you're not happy with the way he's doing it. Right?

He's not doing a good job and I have point out why he is not doing a good job.

I don't think there is much difference between not doing a job and doing a job badly.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

He's not doing a good job and I have point out why he is not doing a good job.

Or, more accurately, you don't think he's doing a good job and you've pointed out why you don't think he's doing a good job.

Elmo wrote:

I don't think there is much difference between not doing a job and doing a job badly.

I think there's a big difference between stating as a fact that someone is not doing his job, and stating as an opinion that you don't believe someone is doing his job well.

Elmo

I think there's a big difference between stating as a fact that someone is not doing his job, and stating as an opinion that you don't believe someone is doing his job well.

Perhaps you should speak to McDowell about that.


Or any politican for that matter.

I beleive he isn't doing his JOB.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Elmo

McDowell introduces a DNA database he's accused of being a facist,

I would think that a DNA DB is something that needs to be done, but like everything in this country one government will suggested and start implementing it while the next 3 governments will lay claim to some of its success or lack of success.

I would not think a DNA DB is a facist move. Sure we could call Finger Printing DB as facist if that is the case.

Who accused him of being a facist for introducing it. I must be a Facist as I though a DNA DB would have been set up long ago.

Perhaps I watch too much CSI.

Jackz

maccor I think you might want to reread the debate:

It would seem to me that Elmo is making points without any evidence to back them up and oscar is asking for this evidence.

In my opinion McDowell is doing what every politicion does; pointing out the failings of another party. In my opinion he does not fear Sinn Fein he fears people voting for them because they don't know much about politics and voting for Sinn Fein seems patriotic to them.

As we get closer to election time I would like to see some of SF's proposed policies in greater detail. Can I ask the Sinn Fein supporters on this thread why they think Sinn Fein being in government will be good for the Republic of Ireland?

Here is what I hope FF and the PD's return to government and the current prosperity of the country continues. I feel that the current goverment if given the chance will make the improvements that they have promised in justuce, infrastucture and health. These are the areas of intrest to me. I dont want more money from them I don't want them to take any less of my money I just want them to spend the money im currently giving them well. They have clear plans and well developed policies which in my opinion are good policies they have had problems with implementation and assurances have been made that this will be planed better and monitored closely.
PPARS was a screw up as was electronic voting, ok im critical of our tax money being wasted on both counts. I am very happy with the Luas. I am happy with improvements that have been made to the road I use to travel to work. Broadband has made it to my small town. The american company I work for are in the country. etc.

I don't want Enda Kenny, I don't want Gerry Adams, I don't want Trevor Seargent and I don't want Pat Rabbit.

Happy Birthday, PDs...

Elmo

I am very happy with the Luas

FG/Labour government started the ball rolling on that one.

Either with LUAS you can do what FF/PDs want you to do and say

"Sure we went way over budget but would get rid of it now, sure isn't grand".

I have pointed out the failings of the PDs and of Micheal McDowell. I don't want them in next time. I wouldn't mind FF being returned with Labour or FG or The Greens.

I personally don't want FG or PDs in government.

Broadband has made it to my small town. The american company I work for are in the country

How long where you waiting for BB. Just because you have BB doesn't mean everyone else has BB. As far as I know where I come from in Dublin you still have problem getting BB.

The american company won't leave if the PDs go from government, but then some american companies are already leaving. You might want to take a pay cut.

I have list failing of the PD which are substaniated. If you want to ignor what Mr. McDowell fails to do then go ahead. But you be stupid to turn a blind eye to his slyness.

What are you going to do? Wait for things to change and then say oh well they got there in the end.

Sure when the Port Tunnel is finish we can all finally say. WOW what a wonderful job they have done, over budget and too late. But sure Next year you won't have to put up with the Trucks on the Road. Except for the SUPER TRUCKS. and sure there's not that many of them about.

I wait for a good reason to keep M. McDowell in Power.