Eddie Out

RuggieBear

I was on newstalk 106 today at 6.45pm.

Basically the gist of my spiel was that eddie osullivan should be sacked or resign unless he bloods new players in time for the world cup.

We have a team growing old together and the many opportunities to blood new players have been wasted.

Irish rugby is now stagnating under his management.

Does anyone else agree or disagree?

kermitdfrog

He dropped Corrigan, Demspey and Foley for the last game. Included the three Bests, Bowe, O'Connor, Leamy, McCullough in the match day squad, all with <5 caps, and had Trimble in the extended squad as back up backline player. In the training squad Kearney and Heaslip were included, along with Mick O'Driscoll, Lewis etc etc etc

During the Triple Crown season we played some great attacking rugby, and as recently as last November we played some of our best rugby ever against SA.

Our 6N last year was dreadful as much through injury (Horgan, BOD and D'Arcy all injured... ) as through a lack of players coming through.

One year on and we have a lot more young talent coming through.

Where were all these young players he could have blooded and didn't? Where were these wasted opportunities?

rugbug86

agree - he's had his chance and his style of management just isn't working at the moment... or maybe he's just run his course.

Amz

RuggieBear wrote:

I was on newstalk 106 today at 6.45pm.

Basically the gist of my spiel was that eddie osullivan should be sacked or resign unless he bloods new players in time for the world cup.

We have a team growing old together and the many opportunities to blood new players have been wasted.

Irish rugby is now stagnating under his management.

Does anyone else agree or disagree?

Oh my god! The one bloody Sunday I don't listen to At the end of the day and someone I know is on it!

I agree fully with what you're saying. Based not only yesterday's horrific "performance", but on the many other occassions when we failed to perform when we should have.

He's not building for the future. If he continues to stick with the type of players he's been using we haven't a hope in 2007.

RuggieBear

kermitdfrog wrote:

Where were all these young players he could have blooded and didn't? Where were these wasted opportunities?

Japan tour perhaps.

As for bringing people into the training squads....big ****ing woo if you are going to then drop them.

The only time any younger players get a chance under him are when the incumbent is injured (d'arcy, Murphy, DOC), or when he does things half arsed like on sat when he picks Leamy at 8 (a Blindside who was played at centre by munster for alot of the autumn).

RuggieBear

Amz wrote:

Oh my god! The one bloody Sunday I don't listen to At the end of the day and someone I know is on it!

Just checked the mobile, I was ranting for a good 8mins. Didn't get all of my points over particularly clearly as Oisin kept asking me different questions and i kept going off on tangents.

I'm sure it's repeated, i might ask if i can get an mp3 copy emailed to me.

Amz

Cool! I know they repeat shows all night, it might be on at about 4am

They do podcasts of some of their shows, but I don't think At the end of the day is podcasted yet.

Amz <3s Jerry O'Sullivan

kermitdfrog

RuggieBear wrote:

Japan tour perhaps.

Who could/should have gone that didnt?

As for bringing people into the training squads....big ****ing woo if you are going to then drop them.

Read the post - he kept the Best, Bowe, Leamy, McCullough. What did you want him to do - drop Murphy so Kearney could get a go with his HUGE experience? Drop D'Arcy so Lewis could play? Come on, be realistic, you can't just throw in everyone for the sake of it.

The only time any younger players get a chance under him are when the incumbent is injured (d'arcy, Murphy, DOC),

Crap - O'Connor was picked, EOS picked Murphy in EVERY game he has been available for, D'Arcy was playing crap and was picked as soon as he hit form, DOC was not p[icked while O'Kelly was playing well.

He's not going to drop players unless the other option is better than the current one.

or when he does things half arsed like on sat when he picks Leamy at 8 (a Blindside who was played at centre by munster for alot of the autumn).

Best thing he could have done - Leamy has played 8 a lot, and has been playing 7 this season. We needed a big physical player, and someone to compete at the break down. Leamy is the form back row player. It was the right call.

People say EOS doesnt pick players till he has too, but few can name players that should have been picked before they were. We don't exactly have a huge number of class players, and the reason a lot players have played longer then we would have liked is because we dont have the option of younger better players coming through.

kermitdfrog

I'm not saying that he hasnt made mistakes by the way - every coach does, noone is perfect. But he's not as bad as some would have us believe. A lot of his mistakes have only been apparent with hindsight, and most of the bad aspects of his management that people give out about are not backed up by the facts

[Jackass]

Ruggie Bear wrote:

I was on newstalk 106 today at 6.45pm.

Basically the gist of my spiel was that eddie osullivan should be sacked or resign unless he bloods new players in time for the world cup.

We have a team growing old together and the many opportunities to blood new players have been wasted.

Irish rugby is now stagnating under his management.

Does anyone else agree or disagree?

I totaly agree. It's time for the likes of Bowe, Campbell, Boss, J'OC, Leamy, Munster hooker whos name escapes me and plenty others to play the next 2 tests with one eye on the 6N. We need to find a new front row for a start...

kermitdfrog

DubGuy wrote:

I totaly agree. It's time for the likes of Bowe, Campbell, Boss, J'OC, Leamy, Munster hooker whos name escapes me and plenty others to get a run in the team. We need to find a new front row for a start...

Bowe is getting a run. Cambell will probably play v Aus, and will be first choice this season if he hits some form. Boss has been awful since starting for Ulster. JOC and Leamy ARE getting a run in the team. Sheehan ius first choice hooker now, but was injured. Who else deserves a place, exactly?

I wish people would stop saying stuff like 'plenty of others' - if you dont have the answers, what makes you think there's a plethora of 'others' that should be being picked?

There will be a few changes for the Aus game, and more for Romania, and by the time the 6N comes round more and more younger players will have more HEC and CL experience. What more can we do?

A new front row? Eh, that would be FANTASTIC. But who, exactly? We dont HAVE any good props. That's EOS's fault now as well is it?

RuggieBear

kermitdfrog wrote:

Who could/should have gone that didnt?

Read the post - he kept the Best, Bowe, Leamy, McCullough. What did you want him to do - drop Murphy so Kearney could get a go with his HUGE experience? Drop D'Arcy so Lewis could play? Come on, be realistic, you can't just throw in everyone for the sake of it.

Crap - O'Connor was picked, EOS picked Murphy in EVERY game he has been available for, D'Arcy was playing crap and was picked as soon as he hit form, DOC was not p[icked while O'Kelly was playing well.

He's not going to drop players unless the other option is better than the current one.


Best thing he could have done - Leamy has played 8 a lot, and has been playing 7 this season. We needed a big physical player, and someone to compete at the break down. Leamy is the form back row player. It was the right call.

People say EOS doesnt pick players till he has too, but few can name players that should have been picked before they were. We don't exactly have a huge number of class players, and the reason a lot players have played longer then we would have liked is because we dont have the option of younger better players coming through.

LOL....Murphy has definetly not been picked for every game he has been available.
Murphy should have been picked about two seasons before he finally made it into the team versus scotland in 2001 (edit: oops he suffered a torn hamstring). O'connor eventually was picked, he should have been in the team at least the season before if not the season before that.

D'arcy was picked against France as BOD was injured. he was having a stormer for leinster but wouldn't have made the Irish team had BOD been fit. It was only Anderson suggesting it at Leinster that EOS even considered using D'arcy as a centre.

I would not have used lewis i'd have shoved D'arcy/horgan on the wing and played the form irish centre this season....trimble.

I'd argue that Heaslip has been the form No 8 in the country.

[Jackass]

Kermitdfrog wrote:

Bowe is getting a run. Cambell will probably play v Aus, and will be first choice this season if he hits some form. Boss has been awful since starting for Ulster. JOC and Leamy ARE getting a run in the team. Sheehan ius first choice hooker now, but was injured. Who else deserves a place, exactly?

I wish people would stop saying stuff like 'plenty of others' - if you dont have the answers, what makes you think there's a plethora of 'others' that should be being picked?

A new front row? Eh, that would be FANTASTIC. But who, exactly? We dont HAVE any good props. That's EOS's fault now as well is it?

Well I did say find And the only way to find them is to test them in...well, tests. Flanningan (I think is his name) was the Munster hooker I was talking about. Campbell should be but isn't first choice SH, infact I don't think he's ever started a game unless he did in Japan. Bowe never started afaik until the Japan tour when the lions were away. JO'C is slightly established starter since the 6N, but should be automatic choice, and I don't think Leamy has got a run at all, althogh I was suprised he named him for NZ game, fair play. Duffy from Connacht should start at FB. Horan should have been in the team last season, and is only in now because of retirement, and I havn't had a chance to follow much CL this season, but if i got to see a couple of rounds of matches, I would be able to name you an entire experemental team...which I might actually do in the morning, but now im wrecked.

RuggieBear

kermitdfrog wrote:

A new front row? Eh, that would be FANTASTIC. But who, exactly? We dont HAVE any good props. That's EOS's fault now as well is it?

Bracken has enough talent that Craig Dowd at Wasps has poached him and reckons he can turn him into a formidable player. How come Ulster and/or the irish management haven't seen it.


oh and the following should have gone to japan at least

Gary Brown
James Downey
Shane Jennings
Chris keane
Ronnie McCormack
Paul Shields
Jeremy Staunton
Gerry Flannery
peter Bracken

Nukem

I agree - had his chance and blew it (Kidney must be busting his ass laughing at him)
We need someone that everyone likes and can relate to - an old hand to steer the boat - names like Michael Bradley,Mark McCall and Mick Galway (not enough experience but ya get the idea).

Im sick Sh!t of this "we'll pick the players who have done the job before" - what f*cking joib we are flat as a pancake,no new exciting blood for the international setup at all. Want a ethos broght in = on form,in the team.Not "well he has experience" its so c0unter-productive IMO not blooding players in big matches.

Nukem

Nukem

RuggieBear wrote:

Bracken has enough talent that Craig Dowd at Wasps has poached him and reckons he can turn him into a formidable player. How come Ulster and/or the irish management haven't seen it.

Another example is JOC!

kermitdfrog

Murphy has definetly not been picked for every game he has been available.

Really? Want to check that again? Check which manager didnt pick Murphy (I'll give you a clue, he wasnt Irish), and who did. And tell me one single game where Murphy wasnt picked by EOs when he should have been...

Murphy should have been picked about two seasons before he finally made it into the team versus scotland in 2001

Exactly - EOS only became manager after the Nov ints in 2001...

O'connor eventually was picked, he should have been in the team at least the season before if not the season before that.

O'Connor was picked for the summer tour after his first season in the Premiership. He wasnt picked before that because he was only starting out.

D'arcy was picked against France as BOD was injured. he was having a stormer for leinster but wouldn't have made the Irish team had BOD been fit. It was only Anderson suggesting it at Leinster that EOS even considered using D'arcy as a centre.

You're presuming that he wouldnt have played anyway - I presume he would have. No way of knowing who is right. Either way, there was no reason to pick D'Arcy before that, as he was in ****e form, and only started playing well when the rest of the Irish squad was in Aus for the RWC - that gave him a kick up the arse, he started playing well, and was picked.

I would not have used lewis i'd have shoved D'arcy/horgan on the wing and played the form irish centre this season....trimble.

There is an argument for that. Equally Trimble could have become the next Tait or McWeeney of we'd thrown him into that game. As it is he was next choice to play, and will prob play v Aus. It's his first pro season, he's play maybe siz games, and EOS has picked him in his Ireland 24 - what more do you want?

I'd argue that Heaslip has been the form No 8 in the country.[.quote]Absolutely. Which is why he was in the squad after only a few pro games. Heaslip will hopefully be first choice by next summer.

These examples you're giving - Trimble and Heaslip - only starting playign for their provinces this season. They weren't picked for a match against the All Blacks - is that the only example you have of EOS not bringing in players? Cos if so your argument is floundering

kermitdfrog

DubGuy wrote:

Well I did say find And the only way to find them is to test them in...well, tests.

Yeah, but WHO?

Flanningan (I think is his name) was the Munster hooker I was talking about. Campbell should be but isn't first choice SH, infact I don't think he's ever started a game unless he did in Japan. Bowe never started afaik until the Japan tour when the lions were away. JO'C is slightly established starter since the 6N, but should be automatic choice, and I don't think Leamy has got a run at all, althogh I was suprised he named him for NZ game, fair play. Duffy from Connacht should start at FB. Horan should have been in the team last season, and is only in now because of retirement, and I havn't had a chance to follow much CL this season, but if i got to see a couple of rounds of matches, I would be able to name you an entire experemental team...which I might actually do in the morning, but now im wrecked.

Flannery has played on good game and you want to throw him into a test v the All blacks? Cambell wasnt 1st choice because Stringer was playing well. Now he's not, Cambell hasnt shown enough to be considered better, yet. Bowe was blooded last year and has shown enough to be started against the ABs - whats the problem? JOC is automatic first choice -what's the problem?Duffy isnt playing for Connacht, he's playing in the English 1st Division, and was in the 6N squad, played in games, but has been dropped in favour of form players like Bowe - what's the problem? Horan is in now cos he's better - Corrigan didnt retire, he was dropped. We could all name an experimental side -so what? If they're not good enough what's the point? more to the point, if they are not BETTER than the current players, you cant just play them for the sake of it. When they are good enough, they are picked, a few exceptions aside.

I dont agree with everything he does, but this nonsense bugs me

kermitdfrog

RuggieBear wrote:

Bracken has enough talent that Craig Dowd at Wasps has poached him and reckons he can turn him into a formidable player. How come Ulster and/or the irish management haven't seen it.

Hopefully he comes good. He hasnt yet.

oh and the following should have gone to japan at least

Gary Brown
James Downey
Shane Jennings
Chris keane
Ronnie McCormack
Paul Shields
Jeremy Staunton
Gerry Flannery
peter Bracken

Agreed on Brown (did he not go? Thought he did) and Jennings (who should be in the Autumn squad - that's one call I cant agree with EOS on - as I said he doesnt do everythign right).

Downey? Eh, why? There's better centres. Keane? McCormack? Shields? Dont make me laugh. Staunton????? :eek: Flannery should have gone, based on what exactly had he shown pre-the Japan tests? Jackman went anyway. Bracken maybe, but he hasnt shown anythign to get excited about yet.

Another example is JOC!

What is, that he, like Bracken or Jennings may do, got better playing in the GP? Hardly EOS's fault, is it? It is not the job of the Irish management to progress players, that's the provinces job.

kermitdfrog

Im sick Sh!t of this "we'll pick the players who have done the job before" - what f*cking joib we are flat as a pancake,no new exciting blood for the international setup at all. Want a ethos broght in = on form,in the team.Not "well he has experience" its so c0unter-productive IMO not blooding players in big matches.

If you have two players of equal capability then of course you pick the experienced one.

Flat as a pancake? Yeah, our Triple Crown winning side play ****, didnt they? The team that beat SA - crap werent they?

We had one 6N were the experience was leant on perhaps too much because it was seen as Ireland real chance of a Grand Slam - other than that EOS has done everything you all accuse him of not doing.

Anyone want to check the number of new caps under EOS since he took over? Go on, I dare ya...

kermitdfrog

Anyway, bed calls.

Just to be clear, EOS is not perfect, but the **** he gets is not backed up.

RuggieBear

kermitdfrog wrote:

Hopefully he comes good. He hasnt yet.

Agreed on Brown (did he not go? Thought he did) and Jennings (who should be in the Autumn squad - that's one call I cant agree with EOS on - as I said he doesnt do everythign right).

Downey? Eh, why? There's better centres. Keane? McCormack? Shields? Dont make me laugh. Staunton????? :eek: Flannery should have gone, based on what exactly had he shown pre-the Japan tests? Jackman went anyway. Bracken maybe, but he hasnt shown anythign to get excited about yet.

My point was there were a heap of decent provincial players who could have been blooded while the senior pros were away with the lions.....instead we had humphreys playin and stringer...while we are crying out for a new scrum half (and soon outhalfs). Why was paddy wallace not played. Wlaace has been around the world with ireland and not been played.


Here is the squad....lots of young players but how many of them actually started the tests against Japan?
Simon Best (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 11/02/78, 6 caps
Reggie Corrigan (Greystones/Leinster) 19/11/70, 44 caps
Leo Cullen (Blackrock College/Leinster) 09/01/78, 15 caps
Simon Easterby (Llanelli) 21/07/75, 42 caps
Trevor Hogan (Shannon/Munster) 23/09/79, -
Marcus Horan (Shannon/Munster) 07/09/77, 28 caps
Bernard Jackman (Clontarf/Connacht) 05/05/76, -
Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster) 27/11/81, 2 caps
Eric Miller (Terenure College/Leinster) 23/9/75, 46 caps
Matt McCullough (Ballymena/Ulster) 09/09/81, -
Johnny O’Connor (Wasps) 09/06/82, 6 caps
Frankie Sheahan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 27/08/76, 22 caps
David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster) 08/07/76, 21 caps
Roger Wilson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 21/09/81, -

Backs (12):

Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 22/02/84, 1 cap
Kieran Campbell (Dungannon/Ulster) 06/07/79, -
Girvan Dempsey (Terenure College/Leinster) 02/10/75, 58 caps
Gavin Duffy (NEC Harlequins) 18/09/81, 2 caps
Anthony Horgan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 15/11/76, 4 caps
David Humphreys (Capt) (Dungannon/Ulster) 10/09/71, 67 caps
Kieran Lewis (St Mary's College/Leinster) 19/08/80, -
Conor McPhillips (St Mary's College/Connacht) 09/02/81, -
Kevin Maggs (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 03/06/74, 69 caps
David Quinlan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 04/01/78, -
Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster) 13/12/77, 56
Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster) 27/08/79, -

kermitdfrog

Sorry, really am going but had to reply quickly...

Why hasnt Paddy Wallace played. Cos he is ****e, pure unmitigated ****e.

Large part of the problem is lack of options - we dont have decent flyhalfs coming though for example. Its all well and good naming names, but if they're not good enough they're not good enough.

Now, if at the end of this season EOS hasnt blooded the yong form players coming through, I'll grant you he's holding us back. But for all the moaning about what he hasnt done previously, he hasnt had the options. Now he has, now we can see the players coming through. Lets just see what he does with them. Hopefuly by the season end we see a team along the lines of

1. Horan
2. Sheehan
3. Best
4. O'Connell
5. O'Callaghan
6. Leamy
7. O'Connor
8. Heaslip
9. Cambell
10. O'Gara
11. D'Arcy
12. Trimble
13. O'Driscoll
14. Murphy
15. Kearney

That still leaves the likes of Horgan, Bowe, Stringer, Lewis, Quinlan, Duffy etcfighting for places in the backs (i.e. if my picks arent in form there will be others who are), and Best x2, Quinlan, Jackman, MCCullough, O'Driscoll, Easterby, Wilson, Hogan, Miller etc fighting for places in the pack.

kermitdfrog

Again, there are mistakes and omissions I have problems with - Jennings for example, Brennan (though the time when we should have picked him is past, we have enough locks and backrow options now), Cambell should have been picked when Stringer lost form, and so on. But name any international that hasnt made decisions that the fans are confused by. I'm just saying EOS has been good for Irish rugby, with an impressive win ratio, wins over SA and Aus, a triple crown and some of the best rugby Ireland have played.

This is a big season for him - he either returns to the heights he hits and progresses the team or he goes. But not yet

Really gone now!

RuggieBear

kermitdfrog wrote:

Sorry, really am going but had to reply quickly...

Why hasnt Paddy Wallace played. Cos he is ****e, pure unmitigated ****e.

Large part of the problem is lack of options - we dont have decent flyhalfs coming though for example. Its all well and good naming names, but if they're not good enough they're not good enough.

Now, if at the end of this season EOS hasnt blooded the yong form players coming through, I'll grant you he's holding us back. But for all the moaning about what he hasnt done previously, he hasnt had the options. Now he has, now we can see the players coming through. Lets just see what he does with them. Hopefuly by the season end we see a team along the lines of

1. Horan
2. Sheehan
3. Best
4. O'Connell
5. O'Callaghan
6. Leamy
7. O'Connor
8. Heaslip
9. Cambell
10. O'Gara
11. D'Arcy
12. Trimble
13. O'Driscoll
14. Murphy
15. Kearney

That still leaves the likes of Horgan, Bowe, Stringer, Lewis, Quinlan, Duffy etcfighting for places in the backs (i.e. if my picks arent in form there will be others who are), and Best x2, Quinlan, Jackman, MCCullough, O'Driscoll, Easterby, Wilson, Hogan, Miller etc fighting for places in the pack.

lol....well maybe but he is the next best irish fly half. I reckon Staunton was badly handled and has never become the player he could have. Andy dunne is another who was wasted at leinster...

I like that team...altho i do reckon that kearney is still way to slight and inexperienced defensively. Grand going forward but has cost leinster about 4 tries this year by missing tackles/positionally bad. Oh and i'd have MOD in there too...

but at the end of the day...i reckon the all blacks would have pissed on that team too :[

[Jackass]

Eddie O'Sullivan wrote:

Yeah, but WHO?

Flannery has played on good game and you want to throw him into a test v the All blacks? Cambell wasnt 1st choice because Stringer was playing well. Now he's not, Cambell hasnt shown enough to be considered better, yet. Bowe was blooded last year and has shown enough to be started against the ABs - whats the problem? JOC is automatic first choice -what's the problem?Duffy isnt playing for Connacht, he's playing in the English 1st Division, and was in the 6N squad, played in games, but has been dropped in favour of form players like Bowe - what's the problem? Horan is in now cos he's better - Corrigan didnt retire, he was dropped. We could all name an experimental side -so what? If they're not good enough what's the point? more to the point, if they are not BETTER than the current players, you cant just play them for the sake of it. When they are good enough, they are picked, a few exceptions aside.

I dont agree with everything he does, but this nonsense bugs me

Eh, well it's all well and good saying a players not good enough, that's your opinion, but I'm saying that their is a lot of young players OR very good players who aren't starting. Im saying we have to try them out...what's the point of playing the exact same team (for the majority) in every game? It results in the exact situation we have now - no depth - what's the problem?

SCW blooded loads of players when he was english manager..why? because he got the hugh strength in depth then of tested players with experience.

Stringer hasn't played a good game in 2 years, what's the problem?
You want a snippets of players who at least a few should get a go in big games? Brennan should be in the squad at least...he had mccullagh on the bench for god sake. Is Eddie O'Sullivans wife friendly with Trevor or something? Is that the problem?
McCormack/Bracken/Flanningan/Sheehan/Blaney/Horan/Simon Best/Fitzpatrick/Brennan/O'Driscoll/Ronan/Jennings/Heaslip/Campbell/Keane/Boss/Staunton/Bowe/Downey/Duffy/Cunningham
What's the problem?

No need to get so offended Eddie...even if your selection policy wasn't muck, you still don't cut it tacticly - what's the problem? -

kermitdfrog

Can't sleep, and this is entertaining in that there's some crap being posted, without any thought gone into it.

Oh god - I said what's the problem each time because I had pointed out something which implied there should be no problem with that particular selection. No need to get personal with your "You're EOS" jokes. It and repeating what's the problem is not funny and just shows you cant actually debate this properly. Why dnt address the points I made in that post?

I'm saying that their is a lot of young players OR very good players who aren't starting

For the last time - who? You have yet to give me an example of a good or very good young player who was playign well and wasnt picked, and should have been. I can name good young players not being picked - because there's someone better, i.e. they shouldnt be picked.

Brennan should be in the squad at least...he had mccullagh on the bench for god sake.

Read the other posts - I agree, Brennan SHOULD have been picked. But dont knock McCullough, who's in great form. That was a brave call, exactly the kind of thing he is accused of not doing.

McCormack/Bracken/Flanningan/Sheehan/Blaney/Horan/Simon Best/Fitzpatrick/Brennan/O'Driscoll/Ronan/Jennings/Heaslip/Campbell/Keane/Boss/
Staunton/Bowe/Downey/Duffy/Cunningham

McCormack can't get his game at Leinster. He is young and promising, no more - yet. Hope he comes good. Ditto Bracken. Flannery (not Flannigan) has had a few good games, but showed no reason to pick him before now. For gods sake, we already have three hookers, how many do you want?! Blaney was not getting his game at Leinster, why should Ireland pick him. Again, we have enough hookers - are you just throwing out names for the sake of it? Horan is being picked, as is Best. Fitzpatrick? Over who, exactly? Brennan, as I said I agree with. Like I said, I dont agree with everything EOS has done. O'Driscoll is only now living up to expectations, but in my book should have made the bench ahead of McCullough, but it was a mrginal call. Ronan? Can't get a game at Leinster but you want him picked for Ireland? Come on! He WILL be great, but not yet. Jennings I already said, Heaslip has only just been picked for Leinster and made the Ireland squad as a result, Cambell has been picked. Boss has been crap. Staunton wasnt good enough to make it at Munster. Bowe is playing. Duffy is playing 1st Division rugby, and we HAVE better backs, who are all being picked.

Come on, this is a joke - you're just listing off players. Why would we pick Duffy when we have better players? You cant just name players - ****, I could list off tons of players who arent being picked for Ireland. Doesnt mean they should be. If you can name players better than those being picked, fair enough. But you havent. Some of the players you named werent even good or playing over the last year! They are now and are being picked now.

RuggieBear

Go to bed...:D At least i have an excuse to be up (work)


My main arguement is EOS should blood these potential internationals in the games he could have, eg Japan tour, autumn internationals. Why did reggie, maggs, stringer and humphries go to/play in japan? How come during the last world cup we played our strongest 15 against both Romania and Namibia?

It just strikes me as ultra conservative...

we'll be playing an australian team which has 8 players under 23 next week. I'd rather lose to them and have Trimble in the centres than beat them with kevin Maggs. Who cares if we win...lose...draw.

PJG

Ruggiebear, I agree

Gatland was shafted, and EOS reaped from what Gatland sowed. Murphy was played out of his most effective position most of the time. Ignoring T Brennan is a disgrace, he should have been playing in second row on Saturday. Staff have difficulty working with him (Mike Ford).

ruck-it

A triple crown, that's not what I remember from that season at all, what I remember from that season is failing to beat Australia in the RWC when we should have, not even trying against France in the quarter final and then worst of all traveling to Paris in the 6N and having made up our minds to try and 'limit the damage' and failing at that too.

Santa Claus

I totally agree with Ruggie.
I mean Marcus Horan and John Hayes up front ??? Hayes is about 1 game away from getting dropped by munster, he needs about 5 months off as Neil Francis said yesterday.
And as for Anthony Horgan, we if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all.

I can't understand why David Wallace wasn't at least on the bench and Jackman was brought into the squad ?

Eddie has his favourites and he sticks with them. Also he tends to rarely look outside Ireland for his squad memebers (hell most of the time he'll only grudgingly look outside Muster!). OK, the exceptions being Murphy and O'Connor but even then it took him long enough to bring O'Connor in.

I mean look at Trevor Brennan and also that young 2nd row with London Irish whose name I can't think of but he had the record for most tackles made in the Premiership last season.

I think it's time for a change and I reckon if he wants it Bradley will be a shoe-in !

kermitdfrog

Santa Claus wrote:

I totally agree with Ruggie.
I mean Marcus Horan and John Hayes up front ??? Hayes is about 1 game away from getting dropped by munster, he needs about 5 months off as Neil Francis said yesterday.
And as for Anthony Horgan, we if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all.

I can't understand why David Wallace wasn't at least on the bench and Jackman was brought into the squad ?

This is what I'm talking about - nonsense that's not backed up. Marcus Horan and Hayes are the only form props we have - where's your alternative? Believe me, if we had a choice I wouldnt want Ireland to pick either of them, bu unless you've unearthed some propping talent unbeknownst to the rest of us I dont see what choice we have.

Have you watched any rugby this season? Anthony Horgan was in great form. In hindsight it was a disaster, but pre-match it was a fair call. Was defintely better options out there though, and was the only selection I was unhappy with when he team was named, though I can see the reasoning

David Wallace? You cant understand how a player who cant get a game for Munster wasnt onthe bench? Me, I'm thinking if neither Gaffney nor Kidney has him as first choice there's somehting in that, no?

Eddie has his favourites and he sticks with them.

Like Horan? Or A.Horgan? Bowe? Leamy? O'Connor? Trimble? Sheehan? Heaslip? Kearney? D.Quinlan? No, you probably mean the likes of Corrigan and Foley...

oh....

Also he tends to rarely look outside Ireland for his squad memebers (hell most of the time he'll only grudgingly look outside Muster!). OK, the exceptions being Murphy and O'Connor but even then it took him long enough to bring O'Connor in.

Granted on this - there is somethign very disturbing about the IRFU's attitude to foreign based players. If you look at the number of players playing abroad now, you could make up a full squad which wouldnt be half bad. Things are getting better -Murphy, O'Connor, Quinlan, Duffy - but what about Jennings? Brennan? Beyond me why he hasnt been picked.

Santa Claus

kermitdfrog wrote:

Marcus Horan and Hayes are the only form props we have

What about Best ? He definitely should have got a start over one of them!

kermitdfrog wrote:

there is somethign very disturbing about the IRFU's attitude to foreign based players.

You mean Eddie's attitude to foreign based players don't you ??

Alf_Wiggum

FAO kermitdfrog, i think your main point is we can't play these players cause they aren't good enough. I'd make the point they're not yet good enough because they haven't played. you don't get to the level required flipping around in the ail league or celtic league matches. i'd say a chance for heaslip to mix it up with the best back row and possibly best back rower ever (mcCaw) would be worth 2 years training.
these type of players take so much from getting a game against the best in the world.

also, imo, the only scorelines that really really really matter are those of the world cup.

Mungaman

Lads your missing Buckley from Munster he has to be bought in as soon as possible he's one of the few physically sized props you have produced. If you don't bring him on and make him a stable in both the Munster and Ireland packs the coaches are crazy.

You need size! lots of it Get a big fast quick tight five and get them moving into as much top class rugby as possible in the next two years. Get the best scrummaging coaches, get the lineout wizards who will teach the locks to leap like salmon, and skills skills skills skills. Then start the mindset and start developing the quick off load.

Get a new defence coach.

Get a coach who can run the bench! For the last four years Eddie has stuck to 15 players for 75 minutes. You need to develop to a team that has a bench and will be used when you need them as impact, fresh legs, and pace.

You have to get rid of stringer
My ten cents.

Oh and most importantly you have to beat the fcuken Auzzies

kermitdfrog

What about Best ? He definitely should have got a start over one of them!

Defintely, no - was a tight call. Both had been in good form in the CL and HEC. But after Saturday I can see Best being first choice - od I hope so.

You mean Eddie's attitude to foreign based players don't you ??

Perhaps - who knows? Hopefully things wont stay like this - the more foreign based players, the more to choose from rather than just 4 pro squads of players. The foreign based players are like a 5th squad. Then again, there havent been many players cryign out to be picked that weren't, Brennan aside. This year there are alot more, so he better start lookgni abroad. If two players are equally good, by all means pick the Irish-based one (he'll have played with and trained with the team, and will be centraly contracted and thus available for camps etc) bt if the foreign player is better he HAS to be picked

FAO kermitdfrog, i think your main point is we can't play these players cause they aren't good enough. I'd make the point they're not yet good enough because they haven't played. you don't get to the level required flipping around in the ail league or celtic league matches. i'd say a chance for heaslip to mix it up with the best back row and possibly best back rower ever (mcCaw) would be worth 2 years training.
these type of players take so much from getting a game against the best in the world.

Kind of - I'm saying if a player isnt good enough for his province and there are better players playing why shoudl EOS pick them? It's not the job of the International management to develop young players. Its their job to turn good and promising CL players into International players. Not turn mediocre or just plain bad ones into world-beaters

I agree that once they show they are capable, bring them in. This has been done, with the likes of Trimble, Bowe, Heaslip, Kearney etc.

Picking Heaslip for teh experience is all well and good, but you cant just throw these players to the dogs. Being destroyed by the All Blacks would do more damage than good - remember John McWeeney? Its about balance. You cant throw a team of youths intothe test arena, you have to blood them and get them in with experienced heads around them. Which was done. Dont forget, we'd all like Heaslip to play, but leamy did - also young and inexperienced. He did EXACTLY what you want him to do, but with a different player.

also, imo, the only scorelines that really really really matter are those of the world cup.

Sorry, but could not disagree more. The RWC has existed for less than 20 yers and suddenly its all that matters? That's crap. Do you also think that the Autumn Internationals are friendlies?

Lads your missing Buckley from Munster he has to be bought in as soon as possible he's one of the few physically sized props you have produced.

Great white hope he is. IF he starts coming on - so far he's been in the AIL, never min for Munster.

Get a coach who can run the bench! For the last four years Eddie has stuck to 15 players for 75 minutes. You need to develop to a team that has a bench and will be used when you need them as impact, fresh legs, and pace.

Agree 100% - one of EOS's major flaws this.

You have to get rid of stringer

If only we could... Seriosuly, before now we had bno choice, and besides, he did well for us. Now there are a number of young scrumhalfs and Stringer's days are numbered unless he has a return to his very best form.

Alf_Wiggum

scorelines that REALLY REALLY REALLY matter.

if it was 12-10 to nz rather than 12-10 to ireland, i wouldn't really really care. if it was the wc, then i would. i've had this discussion before about the "friendlies" in international rugby.

kermitdfrog

Can't agree Wiggum, at all.

RWC is nice and all, but is not what, say, the World Cup is in football.

Would I prefer to beat the Tri Nations teams and Grand Slam the 6N then win the RWC in a knockout competition? I'm not sure. I'd take either.

Dont get me wrong - would love to win the RWC. But it is not the be all and end all, not yet anyway.

I dont know what you've said before WRT the Aut Ints and friendlies, but they are not. No way. Sure the TriNations is only ten years old - if tests are just friendlies, then NZ/AUS/SA only ever played friendlies pre-1987! Tests are test. Friendlies don't exist in rugby - a summer or winter tour is as serious as a 6N or 3N.

kermitdfrog

anyone read the Independent today? Article by David Kelly with some very valid criticisms of EOS and Irish rugby (see? I am not goign to defend EOS against all criticism, just invalid panic criticism without basis).

Criticises Shane Byrne's selection , rightly so, but as indicitative of the lack of options rather than the wrong one (if Jackman had had ANY kind fo form at Leinster he woudl have started I feel, but has gone backwards this season)

Mentions the selection of a clearly not-ready O'Kelly over the likes of Bob Casey at London Irish - who's omission is quite frankly baffling. One of the best locks in the GP.

Slates A.Horgan - not because he wasnt the right call, but he's the best back Munster have produced while the likes Duffy and Staunton are lost.

The problem with a lot (not all) of this lies not with EOS though. The provinces should be holding onto the likes of Staunton and improving them. The national coach cant be expected to pick him if he's not good enough, and he's not. But it is the job of the provinces to develop him so that he is. And the job of the IRFU and PAG to ensure Irish talent is developed, instead of lost.

At the end of the day though, the team for Saturday will be crucial. Lets not kid ourselves that we have had a huge pool of undiscovered talent just bubbling under the surface these last few years, waiting to be unleashed. We havent. But, now we do. Now is the time for EOS to prove himself.

Crash

If we were to get rid of eddie, i say we get Kirwan (if he's still floating around).

After what that man did with the Italian team last year I think it was a disgrace to boot him so quickly.

But i think we should take advantage of that

Santa Claus

I think Bradleys done more with Connacht thank Kirwan did with the Italians.

Bradley's hands have been tied by the PAG and the IRFU deciding who he can and cannot have playing for him from season to season, so he's really performed against the odds with lack of support/funding from Lansdowne.

Of course the fact that ex president Noisy Noel Murphy is his father in law might help also.

Hippo

EOS does seem to have problems tactically. Plan A on Saturday was an unmitigated disaster because the players couldn't execute simple passes while inexplicably running the ball wide where we were going to , um go around the ABs. The worry is that there was no Plan B; for instance targeting their lineout (quite successful while we actually did it) and kicking for territory.
EOS is a backs coach, and yet seems unable to get anything much out of them, except for two or three over-rehearsed moves per season. The game has moved on from this approach, and he looks incapable of moving the team along...and I'm not even referring to the decision to play A Horgan against Doug Howlett! I don't care if he was 'in-form' for Munster, he's just nowhere near quick enough. Of course, ignoring T Brennan is beyond belief.

ruck-it

Lets get this straight Duffy wasn't `lost' he decided to play First Division Rugby in England ahead of coming and playing in Ireland. That's his f*ucking problem. He had plenty of opportunity to come back and last year he was one of Eddie's favs, so much so that I was terrified he'd actually make the squad.

Someone mentioned Horan as a favourite of Eddie's they've gotta be kidding, he should have come in for Reggie last season for sure. Whatever his failings there are fewer than Reggie has.

Oh and I'd love someone to explain to me why Reggie was brought to Japan, explain why Campbell didn't get any game time worth talking about out there also.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Amz

Gerry Thornly is due to be on Off The Ball on Newstalk now methinks.

www.newstalk106.ie

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Harkev

Being discussed on sportscall, Radio 1 now...

Alf_Wiggum

listening now. jeez it's just a big rehash of this thread.

woot andy dunne. i know him!

panda100

Someone started a thread saying which players have to go but seriously its not the players that are letting Irish rugby down its the managment.I cant believe Eddie didnt make one change on the team today-id understand if we had no one on the bench but we do!Kieran Campell has waited on the bench for our last two disastorous defeats and he's a fantastic player!Warren gatland built the Irish squad that was so good up until last year so eddie O'Sullivan really hasnt done anything cept introduce D'arcy to the Irish team.Apparently eddie is on contract till the next world cup though-oh tell me it isnt true?

Amz

Thread merged with RuggieBear's.

Amazotheamazing

To be fair Panda, both players and management are letting the Jersey down, I'd expect an outhalf of Humphrey's experience not to cause 2 opposition tries, I'd expect players like Byrne and Hayes to be big men on the pitch and fight for the yards.
However, there is no doubt that Eddie must go. To see players like Murphy and D'Arcy playing a rigid set-piece game is heart-breaking, these guys no longer play like they love the game. To see McCullough ahead of M.O'Driscoll is frankly appalling. To see Casey and Wallace completely forgotton about, not to mention Brennan and others, screams for EOS' dismissal.