Armistice Day

magpie

So, on this day to mark the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month when the Armistice ended the First World War who observed a minute's silence? I was attempting to but got called into a meeting :mad:

If we're going to roll out the triumphalist 1916 Parade again, as per Bertie's wishes is it time to observe a minute's silence in memory of the 200,000 Irish Volunteers who went to France in 1914?

landser

I agree with you. I am a Nationalist, but today i'm wearing a poppy. I had two great - uncles in the first war, one of whom was killed at Messines. both were catholics. I have no problem wearing a lilly at easter and a poppy in november

godtabh

Ireland was never in the war so why should we remember it?

Fair enough the people who fought in it should be remembered but that is all.

The English remember so much because the war had a massive impact on their lives. While Irish life was impacted it was no where near as bad as the english.

landser

kearnsr wrote:

Ireland was never in the war so why should we remember it?

Fair enough the people who fought in it should be remembered but that is all.

The English remember so much because the war had a massive impact on their lives. While Irish life was impacted it was no where near as bad as the english.

which war are you talking about?

if it's about the first war then you're wrong. we were in it. it ift's the second while you are technically correct that we weren't in it c. 80k - 100k irish people were in the british forces during ww2

Maccattack

Armistace day - song by The Oils


Very sorry I missed that. My Grandfather fought in Gallipoli at Suvla bay.

I visited the peninsula in 1995 for the 80th anniversary of the landings. A very moving place and a very moving story.

You may think its irrelevant to Ireland but the campaign played a big role in shaping the world as we know it today.

Lest we forget thse poor brave souls who died on those lonely foreign shores so far from home.

godtabh

There was no conscirpt for Irish ppl in WW1 hence why volunteers went over.

Great Britian entered the war and British Soldiers fought in it.

While I will have to check my facts I think some sort of home rule was in place in Ireland and that was the reason why volunteers went over becasuse the British couldnt force consription in Ireland or didnt want a rebellion on their hands (they got it anyway but that is a different story).

So thats why I say Ireland wasn't in the war and why it doesnt affect us as much as the British

mountainyman

We fought the first world war to defend Serbia and Russia. Both rogue states. If Germany had won the world would probably be well ahead of where it is now.

Lunar cities, martian colonies and 85% broadband availability.

Maccattack

Armistace day - Song by The Oils

Kearnsr. The first world war was prior to Irish independance so Ireland was still under British rule.

My Grandfather was in the Connaught Rangers. A battalion of which is famous for its mutiny against British officers when they heard about the uprising at home.


I believe a lot of the volunteers went over because it was a means to feed their families.

godtabh

Ireland under home rule was still under british control. Some issues the Irish could control others they couldnt such as taxation which the British did

Benedict XVI

kearnsr wrote:

While I will have to check my facts I think some sort of home rule was in place in Ireland and that was the reason why volunteers went over becasuse the British couldnt force consription in Ireland or didnt want a rebellion on their hands (they got it anyway but that is a different story).

Home rule had been promised but was put on the back burner by the outbreak of war.
Redmond and the Home Rule Party encouraged nationalists to enlist because they though it would hasten the introduction of home rule at the end of hostilities. Remember most people though it 'Would be over by Christmas'

godtabh

mountainyman wrote:

We fought the first world war to defend Serbia and Russia. Both rogue states. If Germany had won the world would probably be well ahead of where it is now.

Lunar cities, martian colonies and 85% broadband availability.

The first world war was started due the assisination of Crwon Price Ferdinad by some one from the old Turkish Ottman empire wasnt it? The Germans want revenge for this.

The British and the Germans where in an arms race (to such an extent the Germans out did the british navy in a very short peroid of time) and assination sparked the conflict.

I'm not sure if what your saying is correct about defending Russia or Seria. They probably would've went to war over anything.

bonkey

kearnsr wrote:

Ireland was never in the war so why should we remember it?

Ireland may not have been, but plenty of Irish - of their own free will - were.

Is their choice and sacrifice not worth remembering?

jc

godtabh

Benedict XVI wrote:

Home rule had been promised but was put on the back burner by the outbreak of war.
Redmond and the Home Rule Party encouraged nationalists to enlist because they though it would hasten the introduction of home rule at the end of hostilities. Remember most people though it 'Would be over by Christmas'

Thats why I said some sort of home rule. The British promised as soon as the war was over that home rule would be granted as long as the irish gave them their support and hence no consciption

godtabh

bonkey wrote:

Ireland may not have been, but plenty of Irish - of their own free will - were.

Is their choice and sacrifice not worth remembering?

jc

I said in my post that the people who fought in the war should be remembered.

Did you read my post?

landser

landser wrote:

both were catholics.

Huh?

What's the significance of religion? I'm sure many British soldiers were Catholics too, and together they all shot many German Catholics...

kearnsr

kearnsr wrote:

While I will have to check my facts I think some sort of home rule was in place in Ireland and that was the reason why volunteers went over becasuse the British couldnt force consription in Ireland or didnt want a rebellion on their hands (they got it anyway but that is a different story).

As I understood it, conscription only existed in Britain. It was only towards the end of WWI that the idea of enforcing conscription in this island was signalled, which was a major boost to Sinn Fein's emergence.

Benedict XVI

kearnsr wrote:

The first world war was started due the assisination of Crwon Price Ferdinad by some one from the old Turkish Ottman empire wasnt it? The Germans want revenge for this.

The British and the Germans where in an arms race (to such an extent the Germans out did the british navy in a very short peroid of time) and assination sparked the conflict.

I'm not sure if what your saying is correct about defending Russia or Seria. They probably would've went to war over anything.

Archduke Franz Ferdinand the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne was assinated in Bosnia by Serb nationalists. They wanted to extend the newly independent (from the Turks) Serbia into Bosnia and they were supported by the Serb government.
When Austro-Hungary got wind that the Serbs were involved he gave them a set of demands that they knew the Serbs could not meet. Germany was Austro-Hungary’s ally and they both declared war on Serbia when the demands were not meet. Serbia was allied with Russia and Russia was allied with France who in turn was allied with the British and Britain guaranteed Belgium’s independents.
So Germany and Austro –Hungary went to war with Serbia\Russia, and invaded Belgium which brought in Britain and France.
Crazy stuff.

bonkey

kearnsr wrote:

I said in my post that the people who fought in the war should be remembered.

Did you read my post?

Yes I did.

I was pointing out that it wasn't just people but Irish people. Whether or not Ireland was involved seems a moot point to me.

The only way I could reconcile the two statements (why should we remember it / it should be remembered) without resorting to interpreting it as a "What have the Romans ever done for us" type of reasoning was to assume that it should be remembered didn't necessarily equate with we should remember it.

I read it to mean that it should be remembered by those with a reason to do so.....but that we weren't necessarily those people because Ireland wasn't involved.

If thats not what you meant, then I'd ask a different question...

Why were you asking for a reason why it should be remembered whilst acknowledging that it should be?

jc

godtabh

Benedict XVI wrote:

Archduke Franz Ferdinand the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne was assinated in Bosnia by Serb nationalists. They wanted to extend the newly independent (from the Turks) Serbia into Bosnia and they were supported by the Serb government.
When Austro-Hungary got wind that the Serbs were involved he gave them a set of demands that they knew the Serbs could not meet. Germany was Austro-Hungary’s ally and they both declared war on Serbia when the demands were not meet. Serbia was allied with Russia and Russia was allied with France who in turn was allied with the British and Britain guaranteed Belgium’s independents.
So Germany and Austro –Hungary went to war with Serbia\Russia, and invaded Belgium which brought in Britain and France.
Crazy stuff.

Its been a while since I've read through my history books so I'll hold my hands up that I got it wrong. Must've been out that day from school!

godtabh

bonkey wrote:

Yes I did.

I was pointing out that it wasn't just people but Irish people. Whether or not Ireland was involved seems a moot point to me.

The only way I could reconcile the two statements (why should we remember it / it should be remembered) without resorting to interpreting it as a "What have the Romans ever done for us" type of reasoning was to assume that it should be remembered didn't necessarily equate with we should remember it.

I read it to mean that it should be remembered by those with a reason to do so.....but that we weren't necessarily those people because Ireland wasn't involved.

If thats not what you meant, then I'd ask a different question...

Why were you asking for a reason why it should be remembered whilst acknowledging that it should be?

jc

What I was saying was that the war to the Irish people wasnt as important as the war was to the British people and hence why the British still remember it with such stong conviction.

But we should remember the Irish people who fought in the war because they fought for a cause they believed in and for Ireland because at the end of the day they volunteered to go to war in the thinking that their scarfice would get home rule/indpendent Ireland.

Thats how I seperate the two.

P.S I didnt mean to be smart in saying did you read my post

lostexpectation

200,000 didn't know it was that much, thats a huge amount of men fir Ireland.:eek:

arbeitsscheuer

I observed the minute's silence. Granted I was in a lecture so I would've been silent anyway but... Was mildly irritated that the lecturer didn't observe it, but f**k it, he's got a job to do so it's not exactly expected.

What really REALLY f**ks me off though is my inability to find a frickin poppy in this crappy city. 2 years in a f**kin row I've been unable to find em... Really annoying me at this stage.

P.S. 170,000, not 200,000. I know I'm being pedantic but still
Also, about 30,000 I think went to fight for Britain in WW2, and they'll be remembered on Remembrance Day, which is this Sunday. (It's always the sunday after Armistice Day).

lostexpectation

But we should remember the Irish people who fought in the war because they fought for a cause they believed in and for Ireland because at the end of the day they volunteered to go to war in the thinking that their scarfice would get home rule/indpendent Ireland.

which is a terrible reasoning for fighting a war that was started as described above.

godtabh

lostexpectation wrote:

But we should remember the Irish people who fought in the war because they fought for a cause they believed in and for Ireland because at the end of the day they volunteered to go to war in the thinking that their scarfice would get home rule/indpendent Ireland.

which is a terrible reasoning for fighting a war that started as described above.

Times where different back then.

It was a noble thing to do. People who fought in wars before that where looked upon like heros. Not after WW1 do. Things changed. The world changed.

lostexpectation

kearnsr wrote:

Times where different back then.

It was a noble thing to do. People who fought in wars before that where looked upon like heros. Not after WW1 do. Things changed. The world changed.

War is never noble, was never noble (espescially cockfight wars like ww1) and I believe there was plenty of people who thought that at the time.

bonkey

lostexpectation wrote:

which is a terrible reasoning for fighting a war that was started as described above.

I guess it depends on whether you see the reason for the war commencing as your reason for fighting in it, or something else.

F'r example...lets say that around-about 1914, you believed Ireland was entitled to its independance and was on the verge of receiving it.

Lets say you also believed that should Germany win the war that had just started, not only would England become subservient to the Kaiser, but Ireland would also as a result, and that there was no reason to believe said Kaiser would hand over Ireland's independance.

If you believed these things, and given that the war had already started....which would be more important -

1) the differing outcomes it could result in for your nation
2) the reasons it began

I don't think it matters how the war began if its the outcome that you're concerned about. The war had started and that was that. You could go out and do something to try and achieve the outcome that was most advantageous to you, or you could cry into your pint about how unjust a war it was given how it started and hope for the best.

Thousands chose the former of these options.

On a side note, I can't think of a good way for a war to start.

jc

magpie

Where can you get a poppy in Dublin?

landser

SebtheBum wrote:

What really REALLY f**ks me off though is my inability to find a frickin poppy in this crappy city. 2 years in a f**kin row I've been unable to find em... Really annoying me at this stage.

P.S. 170,000, not 200,000. I know I'm being pedantic but still
Also, about 30,000 I think went to fight for Britain in WW2, and they'll be remembered on Remembrance Day, which is this Sunday. (It's always the sunday after Armistice Day).

I bought one yesterday off a woman on grafton street, outside the fur shop

the figure for WW2 involvement of irish people is closer to 50,000 and some put it as high as 80,000. this figure would include non-combattants e.g. RAF ground crews, nurses and women in the armed forces

magpie

magpie wrote:

Where can you get a poppy in Dublin?

Dunno about the real thing, but print off this page, colour it in red, use a scissors to cut aruond the edge of the flower and bingo...

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/paso2_001_svd.jpg

bonkey

lostexpectation wrote:

War is never noble, was never noble

No argument, but you should seperate that from how one reacts to the reality of war.

Ask yourself a question. If your country was invaded, do you believe it would be ignoble to resist the invasion? That the noble option is to say "you shouldn't do this, but I won't oppose you"? What if the invaders are bent on killing every man woman and child? You should let them do this, rather than get involved in violence by opposing them?

I fail to see, for example, how staying out of a genocidal event like that which occurred in Rwanda some years ago would be more noble than actually getting involved and fighting for those being massacred.

jc

Maccattack

Does this thread need to turn into a 'I know more about history than you do' argument?

Rememberance days arent about who what why. Its about remembering and giving a bit of respect to the young men and women who fought and died in those terrible wars.

They are days for reflection. Too often the reflection is on what the world was, or what it has become as a result of the wars. Personally I try to reflect on some of the lives that were sacrificed. The James's, Tom's who's lives were truncated. Cut down in their prime. Never to be seen again by the people who loved them.

Can you imagine what it must have been like in those dark days of humanity to be stuck in a diseased trench for months on end, dreaming of home - wife, children, lover, mother. Your mate rotting away next to you with a massive hole through his skull.

Imagine running at a line of machine gun fire with only a single shot rifle and a bayonet to protect you.

They fought in 'The war to end all wars'.

They were sold a dud.

They deserve our respect and our love and our tears.

Lest we forget.

godtabh

lostexpectation wrote:

War is never noble, was never noble (especially cockfight warslike ww1) and I believe there was plenty of people who thought that at the time.

During that peroid war was a noble thing. You were looked upon with good favor if you managed to get in to the British Army. Not any old scrubber could get in like what happened during consciption.

People who fought in world war 1 did not expect the horrow of trench warfare and the blood baths of the Somme other such battles. After World War 1 peoples views changed dramtaically.

There was never the vast anti-war protest seen like today.

But the values of early 20th century people and early 21st people are totally different.

landser

Maccattack wrote:

Does this thread need to turn into a 'I know more about history than you do' argument?

Rememberance days arent about who what why. Its about remembering and giving a bit of respect to the young men and women who fought and died in those terrible wars.

They are days for reflection. Too often the reflection is on what the world was, or what it has become as a result of the wars. Personally I try to reflect on some of the lives that were sacrificed. The James's, Tom's who's lives were truncated. Cut down in their prime. Never to be seen again by the people who loved them.

Can you imagine what it must have been like in those dark days of humanity to be stuck in a diseased trench for months on end, dreaming of home - wife, children, lover, mother. Your mate rotting away next to you with a massive hole through his skull.

Imagine running at a line of machine gun fire with only a single shot rifle and a bayonet to protect you.

They fought in 'The war to end all wars'.

They were sold a dud.

They deserve our respect and our love and our tears.

Lest we forget.

a bit saccharin, but, you're right. However, the who what and why is the whole point. Unless you know this, then you're just getting irrationally emotional and maudlin. The whole point is "lest we forget".
In order to remember, you first have to know.

Maccattack

saccharin???

You condescending - bitting my toungue.

If you were in front of me now i would be tearing strips off you. I'll refrain you ignoramous.

Jesus. Im fuming. You child.

magpie

Rememberance days arent about who what why. Its about remembering and giving a bit of respect to the young men and women who fought and died in those terrible wars.

Well said

landser

Jesus

Maccattack wrote:

saccharin???

You condescending - bitting my toungue.

If you were in front of me now i would be tearing strips off you. I'll refrain you ignoramous.

Jesus. Im fuming. You child.

how is what i said in any way condescending, or inidcative of my being an ignoramus? I found your "love and tears" comment a bit vomit inducing, that's all. You're easily annoyed.

Tear strips away

lostexpectation

People who fought in world war 1 did not expect the horrow of trench warfare and the blood baths of the Somme other such battles. After World War 1 peoples views changed dramtaically.

-Was there a war befoe that wasn't a slaughterhouse, seriously I know im pontificating but really -was WW1 any different apart from scale?

There was never the vast anti-war protest seen like today.

-There must have been some form protest.

But the values of early 20th century people and early 21st people are totally different.

-Are they really. They knew it was a dud, they went for a job, same as today.

-There is a propaganda involved in the Armistice and Rememberance Day but personal relfection -on what the soldiers had to go through is fine, I've spent more then a minute reading a little on -WW1 so thats my 11th.

-Re WAR

-I was sort of seperating out War from resistance and defence. Britain wasn't interested in the "defence of small nations" it was interested in keeping it spheres of influence.

-I take your points on board though.

Maccattack

We are talking about a subject that is very dear to me.

I'm not prepared to go into detail here but i will say this.

I read a lot of history books especially books on the first and second world wars.

I have visited the mass graves of Gallipoli where my grand father fought and there are very few dry eyed visitors to be seen at the ceremonies. But of course not everyone is as well rounded and mature as you. When you take the time to delve a little into the lives of the people who served in these wars and visit the killing fields you cant help but be moved to tears. and well we should.

Look at all the young people walking the streets today. Lives full of the future. I cant imagine them being shipped off to be slaughtered. can you?

I for one am very proud to appreciate what those soldiers did. Not because they went to war. But because of the incredible bravery they displayed for reasons that are largely incomprehensible today.

Thinking about it often makes me sad and my heart heavy. Perhaps that makes me not as tough as you.

If anyone is interested in finding out more about some of the ordinary boys who served I highly recommend this book.

Its based on the Aussie and Kiwi ANZACS but a very powerful read none the less.

Zombrex

kearnsr wrote:

Ireland under home rule was still under british control. Some issues the Irish could control others they couldnt such as taxation which the British did

We weren't under home rule, the bill had been passed but implimentation was suspended until after the war (which was supposed to be over before Christmas). Home Rule leaders urged Irish people to sign up in the early days because they thought it would show Ireland was loyal to the cause. So as far as I know when the UK entered the war they were our army too (I think they still would have been our army under Home Rule)

My great-grand father fought in Eastern Europen and was also at Gallipoli. He was one of 22 from his company, out of nearly 200, who survived. He died in the late seventies, but if he was alive today he would be amazed about the rememberence tradition today as during his life he believed people didn't care about the war

landser

Macattack, Do you think you're the only person with an interest in this?? you're not.

I've read that book and found it reasonable. I have visited the graveyards in and around Arras and Amiens in Picardie, i found them moving and also interesting.

You seem to have some problem with the use of the word saccharin. the fact that i don't feel the need to blub everytime the war is mentioned, does not mean that i do not have sympathy for those involved, including my own family members.

now back to topic please

godtabh

saccharin

A crystalline substance 500 times sweeter than sugar; used as a calorie-free sweetener

Maccattack

Maccattack wrote:

saccharin???

You condescending - bitting my toungue.

If you were in front of me now i would be tearing strips off you. I'll refrain you ignoramous.

Jesus. Im fuming. You child.

1 week ban

And landser,I and my colleagues will do the moderating around here thanks.

The next outburst I see gets 2 weeks.

murphaph

I had a little think about those poor pawns (on all sides-not just the irish/british troops) used by the great empires of the day. Altogether a very sad time in European history. Imagine if we'd gone a different way and been united back then. The world would be an altogether different place.

Well, how'd you do, Private Willie McBride,
D'you mind if I sit down down here by your graveside?
I'll rest for awhile in the warm summer sun,
Been walking all day, Lord, and I'm nearly done.
I see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916,
I hope you died quick and I hope you died "clean,"
Or, Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

CHORUS:
Did they beat the drum slowly, did they sound the fife lowly?
Did the rifles fire o'er ye as they lowered ye down?
Did the bugles sing "The Last Post" in chorus?
Did the pipes play the "Floors1 O' The Forest"?

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined?
And, though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you forever nineteen?
Or are you a stranger, without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?

Well, the sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard it's still No Man's Land;
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

And I can't help but wonder now, Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you "the cause?"
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame,
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it's all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.

Corny? No, I don't think so. We're still at it today ffs. :mad:

breandan

Deleted User wrote:

Dunno about the real thing, but print off this page, colour it in red, use a scissors to cut aruond the edge of the flower and bingo...

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/paso2_001_svd.jpg

Arent the poppies and the money there sale generates used to look after those who fought in all the wars Britian has/is involved in and not just the first world war.
Indeed as far as I know the ceremonies this weekend are to remember all those who were in wars fighting for Britian and not just the first world war to the best of my knowledge.

A Dub in Glasgo

The British Legion poppy will support all British soldiers who have fought in all war and conflicts including NI and Iraq. There are very few survivors of WWI left. I will not touch a BL red poppy with a barge pole.

I have a white poppy which a lot of folk seem to think supports the other side because it is not the BL red poppy. Strange

Flex

breandan wrote:

Arent the poppies and the money there sale generates used to look after those who fought in all the wars Britian has/is involved in and not just the first world war.
Indeed as far as I know the ceremonies this weekend are to remember all those who were in wars fighting for Britian and not just the first world war to the best of my knowledge.

i thought it was to remember all of britains soldiers that died in battle aswel. if thats the case, how far back in time does it go? back to the 1600's? and would the black and tans and auxiliaries be included in the people who are being 'remembered' by people who wear the british legions poppy?

BuffyBot

The British Legion poppy will support all British soldiers who have fought in all war and conflicts including NI and Iraq.

Maybe. However, they're just ordinary guys doing their job for the most part, and don't really get much choice where they are sent by the governments of their day. Sometimes I wonder why people transfer their issues with the political maneuverings of the day to the ordinary people caught up in them.

Diorraing

Quite hypocritic. Irish people out fighting for the freedom of Belgians and others when we didn't have freedom oursleves! (They had been under occupation 2 years or so - us 700!).
To be 100% honest I couldn't give a crap who won WW1 and in many respects it would have probably have been better for us if the Germans had been stronger and held out longer.
So what if Irish people fought in WW1, Irish people fought in the troubles and we don't remember them, Irish people fought for the confederates - still no rememberance, Irish people fought with Franco - not seeing any rememberance of these either. I would be more than happy to honour Irish soldiers who fought in WW2 against a true tyrant - but not those who fought to preserve the British Empire.
Is mise le meas, Diorraing

magpie

Is mise le meas, Diorraing

That's pretty telling, for starters.

Irish people fought in the troubles and we don't remember them

So is that

not those who fought to preserve the British Empire

As is that.

Whether An Phoblacht likes it or not, 170,000 Irishmen fought in the First World War, the considerable majority of whom were Catholic Nationalists. Gerry Adams' grandfather being one of them if I'm not mistaken.

Diorraing

You're really not seeing my point are you?
I'll put it simply for you?
- I don't see any reason why fighting in WW1 is any better than fighting for the confederates, fighting for Franco, fighting in the troubles. A lot of people have this perception that Irish soldiers were doing the world a great justice by fighting for the British in WW1 - I fail to see how. What did they achieve after it all? Nothing really.
By the way, the fact that you associate the Irish Language with violent republicanism highlights an ignorance in your opinions: Michael McDowell is a fluent speaker (his granddad was a founder of the Gaelic League) as is Enda Kenny and Trevor Sergent - hardly violent nationalists are they?

mountainyman

I believe that much of the interest in the First World War unhealthy and maudlin.

I cycled through the Somme last year and it was a depressing experience and I too had family who died in France but so what it was 90 years ago and if we can't discuss it honestly now what hope is there.

Will those who see the participation of Irish people in the war as something noble answer a few questions?

Please explain why Serbia was engaged in consistent pattern of terrorsim against the Austro Hungarian empire. The so called 'unmeetable demands' were to examine the records of Serbian Intelligence to see what help they had been giving the Black Hand

Please explain why the Russian's began mobilisation FIRST before Germany and Austria.
Please explain why France refused to guarantee the German's neutrality on the western border.

The simple fact is that all wars contain moments of bravery on all sides. However we were on the wrong side in the First World War. The men who fought were not fighting 'that small nations might be free' but against this as they fought for the Russian Empire and against Germany. They fought for the enslavement of Finland and of Poland.

How can this be justified?