Random thoughts on the WSOP

Hectorjelly

This is probably old news for the lucky few who were there.

Firstly - Matasow is clearly mad out of it (on drugs). His behaviour is erratic and I can spot him grinding his jaw whenever he faces the camera. I heard somewhere that he is on legally proscribed mood altering drugs, but I just felt embaressed by him. Theres a place for getting out of it but its not whilst playing poker on National tv. Ive also heard rumours that depite his WSOP he is still millions in debt. Not exaclty a walking talking endorsement of poker.

Secondly, I was really impressed with Andy Blacks play on the 2 big hands shown. He has obviously decided that he was going to send a clear message to Ivey and Raymer that he will not be messed with. At an event like that your table image is so crucially important, players like Ivey and Raymer make a living by preying on week players who are trying to get to the Final Table. The value of scaring players like that away from your blinds is immense. In either hand he could of ran into AK but he took the risk, and crucially wasnt afraid to pull the trigger on multiple streets. Against Ivey he put in the 4th raise which is just about never a bluff. Afterwards he showed and Ivey seemed legitamately impressed. Im only really guessing here but I would think those hands set up his road to the final table.

Daithio

Hector, that was Andy's plan from the start of the last three tables. He wanted to show them that he wasn't rattled by them but rather that they should be rattled by him. It worked. At the end of the day Raymer got unlucky, but Andy was the sole architect of Ivey's demise in this year's world series. You could almost see the steam coming out of Ivey's ears, it was unbelievable. It was truly amazing what Andy did, you'll see it over the next few episodes anyway. He made a few mistakes and some will say he 'threw it away', but there's no doubt that he was the best player there by an absolute mile. At the end of the day the crucial hand that lost it for him was a five outer with 2 cards to come, after he'd made an amazing all in call with 910 on a 6710 board. Unbelievable stuff. The best player at this year's world series came 5th.

kpnuts

DaithiO... CORRECT!

Daithio

As always Ken .

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is probably old news for the lucky few who were there.

Firstly - Matasow is clearly mad out of it (on drugs). His behaviour is erratic and I can spot him grinding his jaw whenever he faces the camera. I heard somewhere that he is on legally proscribed mood altering drugs, but I just felt embaressed by him. Theres a place for getting out of it but its not whilst playing poker on National tv. Ive also heard rumours that depite his WSOP he is still millions in debt. Not exaclty a walking talking endorsement of poker.

Secondly, I was really impressed with Andy Blacks play on the 2 big hands shown. He has obviously decided that he was going to send a clear message to Ivey and Raymer that he will not be messed with. At an event like that your table image is so crucially important, players like Ivey and Raymer make a living by preying on week players who are trying to get to the Final Table. The value of scaring players like that away from your blinds is immense. In either hand he could of ran into AK but he took the risk, and crucially wasnt afraid to pull the trigger on multiple streets. Against Ivey he put in the 4th raise which is just about never a bluff. Afterwards he showed and Ivey seemed legitamately impressed. Im only really guessing here but I would think those hands set up his road to the final table.

Yeah in his cardplayer interview he talked about being on anti-depressents. Up until the main event he had been running very bad, then changed his medication and he said it made all the difference. Like you said it was clear as day he was buzzing from his meds and probably took more than he should have been taking.

careca

NickyOD wrote:

Yeah in his cardplayer interview he talked about being on anti-depressents. Up until the main event he had been running very bad, then changed his medication and he said it made all the difference. Like you said it was clear as day he was buzzing from his meds and probably took more than he should have been taking.

Matusow won the WSOP Tournament of Champions this week for €1 million and as far as I could see he was exactly the same way. He never shut up for the entire final table. Hellmuth got the most of his stick and had to get the TD to ask 'The Mouth' to keep it down while Hellmuth was making a decision. Matusow was not even involved in the hand in question. I think he's an obnoxious plonker and no addition to poker.

ntlbell

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is probably old news for the lucky few who were there.

Firstly - Matasow is clearly mad out of it (on drugs). His behaviour is erratic and I can spot him grinding his jaw whenever he faces the camera. I heard somewhere that he is on legally proscribed mood altering drugs, but I just felt embaressed by him. Theres a place for getting out of it but its not whilst playing poker on National tv. Ive also heard rumours that depite his WSOP he is still millions in debt. Not exaclty a walking talking endorsement of poker.

Secondly, I was really impressed with Andy Blacks play on the 2 big hands shown. He has obviously decided that he was going to send a clear message to Ivey and Raymer that he will not be messed with. At an event like that your table image is so crucially important, players like Ivey and Raymer make a living by preying on week players who are trying to get to the Final Table. The value of scaring players like that away from your blinds is immense. In either hand he could of ran into AK but he took the risk, and crucially wasnt afraid to pull the trigger on multiple streets. Against Ivey he put in the 4th raise which is just about never a bluff. Afterwards he showed and Ivey seemed legitamately impressed. Im only really guessing here but I would think those hands set up his road to the final table.

What episode number is black featured?

27?

kinaldo

careca wrote:

Matusow won the WSOP Tournament of Champions this week for €1 million and as far as I could see he was exactly the same way. He never shut up for the entire final table. Hellmuth got the most of his stick and had to get the TD to ask 'The Mouth' to keep it down while Hellmuth was making a decision. Matusow was not even involved in the hand in question. I think he's an obnoxious plonker and no addition to poker.

no way, matusow is an absolute legend!

from espn site:

Mike Matusow's win might very well be the greatest comeback story in poker history. It's certainly the greatest story since the late Stu Ungar's stunning victory at the 1997 World Series of Poker, after a 16-year hiatus. Matusow was broke and isolated from the poker world last January. Surrounded by only a few close friends and family, Matusow never gave up on himself. When afforded an opportunity to enter the 2005 World Series of Poker, Matusow registered and nearly eliminated himself on the first day (Note: He was given 40-minutes worth of timeouts for inappropriate conduct). Remarkably, Matusow survived amongst a record-field of 5,618 other players and went on to make it all the way to the final table. He busted out ninth, but managed to earn $1 million. The money was gone shortly thereafter.

full 3 page article http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/news/story?id=2219654&num=1

sounds like great tv

Ardent

Daithio wrote:

The best player at this year's world series came 5th.

Don't agree with that. He played well definitely to get as far as he did but he made some mind bogglingly bad plays when down to the last 27.

First major bad play was when he had AQ and the flop was something like xKA. The other guy had KK I think and went all in. Black called. Miraculously two queens popped up on the turn and river to save Black's tournament.

Next up was when they were down to 10 players, just one way from the final table. Black had something like 13 million in chips (clear chip leader) and KJ in his hand which he made a big raise with. Tex Barch re-raised monstrously with JJ and for some reason Black decided to go all in. Ended up handing over half his chips to Barch.

Haven't seen the final table action yet but going on what I've seen up that point, Matusow was the best player throughout the WSOP. Not to mention very entertaining, his running feud with the Sheik was great TV.

Raymer was very unlucky and played very well also.

Lafortezza

Doesn't KKKQQ beat QQQAA?

In the Barch hand I think Ted nearly folded the JJ to Andy's all-in. It may well have been a read-based play by Andy, and he thought his bluff had a good chance of getting through.
Had Ted folded it would've been hailed as the greatest bluff evar!

Ardent

Edited the QQ on the turn and river play - meant to highlight how Black almost self-destructed.

Against Barch, I don't think Barch was ever going to fold. Black gave too much information away on his hand. Matusow was saying to Black that he was never going to call and to get a move on with it and Black replied that with the hand he had it was going to be all-in or fold.

pokertroll

In the first hand that you mention, Andy was actually up against 10 10 and had more chips than his opponent. Teh money went in before the flop.
Before the flop, that aint a bad position to be in. After the flop with the 10 on the board, Andy did get very lucky.

For the KJ hand, Andy didn't raise - he limped and Tex raised to 1 million.
Andy himself said at the time that he put him on 2 undercards. He had the chips and decided to put Tex to the test for the final table bubble - a brave play and the type of play that allowed him to accumulate so many chips when shorthanded. Obviously it was more in his interest to wait for a better spot but I do respect him for the balls that he showed.

Andy also got very unlucky a couple of times - he had hachem all-in at one stage - hachem raised with Ac6c and Andy re-raised substantially with QQ. Flop is all clubs with the Q of clubs and all the money goes in,

Of the final 9 players, Matusow and Andy were the best.
Raymer had a great chance but got extremely unlucky against Kanter.

bohsman

Ardent wrote:

Edited the QQ on the turn and river play - meant to highlight how Black almost self-destructed.

Against Barch, I don't think Barch was ever going to fold. Black gave too much information away on his hand. Matusow was saying to Black that he was never going to call and to get a move on with it and Black replied that with the hand he had it was going to be all-in or fold.

Andys reasoning was that Barch was the best remaining player and this was an opportunity to knock him out before the final table, it should also be noted that they had been playing for over 10hrs at that stage and it had been a long week

kinaldo

Ardent

Don't agree with that. He played well definitely to get as far as he did but he made some mind bogglingly bad plays when down to the last 27

yeah i'd say Andy could learn a few things about poker from u!

from what I've seen and heard every hand he played was based on sound logic.

Ardent

pokertroll, I stand corrected, thanks for the clearing those plays up. I didn't recall all the money going in before the flop on the first play, it's not a bad play in retrospect.

The one where hachem hit the club flush on the flop and Andy hit his third queen, that was cruel stuff. What's the expression...it was a cold deck?

Ardent

kinaldo wrote:

yeah i'd say Andy could learn a few things about poker from u!

No need to be a dick about it, I was just offering my opinion. Some bad luck and bad timing aside, Andy would have gone to the final table with the majority of the chips. No-one would have betted against him then.

If I didn't know the final result, I would have put my money on Matusow on the final table. His form was excellent throughout the tournament.

kinaldo

Ardent wrote:

No need to be a dick about it, I was just offering my opinion. Some bad luck and bad timing aside, Andy would have gone to the final table with the majority of the chips. No-one would have betted against him then.

sorry but i thought your criticism was ridiculously harsh. mind boggingly bad plays? suspect maybe, but don't get carried away with your opinions.

pokertroll

I was very impressed with Matusow also. He did tilt a bit on the final table after his KK ran into AA and he hit a set on the flop only to lose to a flush. He deserved a lot better.

Hachem played it just right - he was short stacked for most of the final table and played it just perfectly. Andy should have taken his foot off the gas with 5 players left - he was playing so aggressive that he was leaving himself open to a trap. He is also too good a player to be taking some of the risks he was taking with marginal but correct calls in large pots.

Daithio

Yeah Pokertroll hit the nail on the head there. He was so capable of ouplaying all of those players that he should have made an attempt to keep the pots smaller, rather than creating monster pots in which he could be outdrawn. Bohsman's also correct in saying that after a week of playing poker under those pressures and at that level a few mistakes are inevitable.

jtsuited

listening to the interviews with Andy, it is clear he has an exceptional feel for the game. His reasoning for the KJ call was quite sound (which is unusual for such an action).
And Matusow's a character. But on seeing his jaw, he's quite obviously either on amphetamines or antidepressants! Take him off the medication is what i say. I'm sure he'd even be more fun!

NickyOD

pokertroll wrote:

Hachem played it just right - he was short stacked for most of the final table and played it just perfectly. Andy should have taken his foot off the gas with 5 players left - he was playing so aggressive that he was leaving himself open to a trap. He is also too good a player to be taking some of the risks he was taking with marginal but correct calls in large pots.

I think you might be giving him too much credit his play with the Q7 was awful and I think everyone at the table could see it was a "Please don't call me" move and he was lucky enough to beat 99. That could and should have sent him packing. Of course its dificult to say how much fatigue played a part at the final table but I doubt that hachem is really the calibre of player that can go on to win WPT events.

a-k-47

Good topic lads, as i didnt see anyone of the wsop on tv... sounds like andy shuda came 1st...i had a show down with andy on ppp to rob the bounty... i lost haha 67s to jj.. caught 6 almost flush ...also ran into phil ivey on ppp last 16 of 5k think(think he came 2nd).. lost nut flush to his kkk22.. didnt raise his sb ... anyone else run into any of the pro's while playing online?...

pokertroll

NickyOD wrote:

I think you might be giving him too much credit his play with the Q7 was awful and I think everyone at the table could see it was a "Please don't call me" move and he was lucky enough to beat 99. That could and should have sent him packing. Of course its dificult to say how much fatigue played a part at the final table but I doubt that hachem is really the calibre of player that can go on to win WPT events.

Maybe so, but I'm talking more about how he played on the final table in general which I saw live but hasn't been broadcast yet.

Hectorjelly

anyone who says something like "pass me the sUgar!" when calling in with the nutflush deserves to be pistol whipped IMO

Hectorjelly

a-k-47 wrote:

also ran into phil ivey on ppp last 16 of 5k think(think he came 2nd).. lost nut flush to his kkk22

lol

mewso

I haven't seen any actual tv from the wsop main event but from what I followed my view was that Andy would have been a deserving winner. What I consider to be the most important aspect of the whole thing was that the winner played a very good tight agressive game which is not the way the so called new talent approach the game at all. In recent times the Gus Hansen lose agressive style has taken hold of the game and Hachem's play, if ayone pays attention, might change things a bit. The key with Hachem was he was willing to fold at key moments when the "you have to take a big chance every now and again to win a tounrament" camp would have pushed and this solid play paid off.

a-k-47

didnt think i was that funny

DubTony

Next time somebody sucks out on you, don't call him fish .... just call him Kanter

DeVore

I was playing against Jesus and Lord Lucan last night online!

Matsusow was arrested for cocaine supply a while before this WSOP. He IS a genuinely good player and not as obnoxious as people seem to think. Loud, yes but he didnt seem nasty and I watched him a lot over the final few days.

Fatigue played a HUGE part. All the players were exhausted from the first day onwards, some looked like zombies from the pressure. Andy (who is mentally very strong) was clearly at breaking point during the Dinner Break debacle.
I think that Donal (Andy's travel companion and fellow Buddhist) should take some of the credit, I'm pretty sure that without him Andy would have gone bat-sh!t before the end. I think I would have too!

I felt sorriest for Raymer, he's a gent and a great player and there was a real hush of expectation that we might be witnessing a double. Being sucked out on by a mega-donkey was sickening.

DeV.

Amaru

DeVore wrote:

Andy (who is mentally very strong) was clearly at breaking point during the Dinner Break debacle.

Can you elaborate on this?

Lafortezza

Apparently there was a 5/10 minute pee/smoke break during the tournament.
One player thought it was a dinner break and buggered off to get something to eat.
After 10 minutes everyone was back and ready to play except this guy. Andy realised what had happened and tried to get everyone to do the right thing and wait until the guy had returned. Everyone but Andy said "tough luck" and were happy to play on a steal the guys blinds.

Andy got pretty upset at this, and played very slowly, taking his full amount of time for each action, and received some abuse from the other players as a result. Dunno if it's true or not but I've read that this situation reduced Andy to tears.

dsab

Yes, he was. Episode 29 or 30 showed him quite distraught about the situation, and tears were clearly rolling.

hotspur

jtsuited wrote:

And Matusow's a character. But on seeing his jaw, he's quite obviously either on amphetamines or antidepressants! Take him off the medication is what i say. I'm sure he'd even be more fun!

Mike has ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and takes the medication Ritalin to control himself, but sometimes he doesn't for some reason and losses it. And yes he is on antidepressant medicaton also. And of course he's no stranger to white substances that land one in jail.

Basically he's a 100% gambling addict who borrows and throws more money away then most of us will ever see. He's a troubled guy but a great tournament poker player and fun to watch waiting for the Mike Mathusow blow up He could certainly do with a psychologist friend with him like Andy had this year...and maybe a zookeeper with a tranquiliser rifle.

jem

as a matter of interest where /when are u lot seeing the main event on challange at 10 there is only the side events??

pokertroll

jem wrote:

as a matter of interest where /when are u lot seeing the main event on challange at 10 there is only the side events??

I'm watching on ESPN in the USA, I assume the others have american cousins who are taping it for them;-)

RasTa

Im dl'ing them since i dont have ESPN, on ep 30 atm

jd

RasTa wrote:

Im dl'ing them since i dont have ESPN, on ep 30 atm

where are you getting the dls?

RasTa

Pm me, since i dont think u can post the site on here

Ardent

RasTa wrote:

Im dl'ing them since i dont have ESPN, on ep 30 atm

Same here. Been watching this season's ESPN coverage of the WSOP, going back to episode 13 or so.

Another highlight of WSOP main event for me was the coverage of Phil Helmuth's table and Phil eventually being knocked out on the first day. I have never seen a bigger sore loser.

ntlbell

Ardent wrote:

Same here. Been watching this season's ESPN coverage of the WSOP, going back to episode 13 or so.

Another highlight of WSOP main event for me was the coverage of Phil Helmuth's table and Phil eventually being knocked out on the first day. I have never seen a bigger sore loser.

Phil is for me one of the best players in the world, it's not that he's a sore looser, but when you're as good as he is and "Ass Clowns" (--NickyOD) are calling hugge re-raises with KJ and hit a J on the river, you're entitled to get a little p*ssed off I certinaly would, any hand I've seen phil loose were he was genuinley outplayed he's taken it well.

Ardent

Yeah, but calling yer man a jack ass after it? A bit out of order really. And then getting knocked out by pocket 7s and calling the whole table clowns?

RasTa

The player who anoyed me the most was that shauny or Shieky whatever he was calling himself, who got into an argument with the mouth. There was one incident where he was short stacked and folded to a small raise. Flop comes down with 2 players still in and as soon as it comes down he stands up and slams his hand off the table.... shocking stuff

ntlbell

Ardent wrote:

Yeah, but calling yer man a jack ass after it? A bit out of order really. And then getting knocked out by pocket 7s and calling the whole table clowns?

"this guy can't even spell poker!!"

kincsem

ntlbell wrote:

Phil is for me one of the best players in the world, it's not that he's a sore looser, but when you're as good as he is and "Ass Clowns" (--NickyOD) are calling hugge re-raises with KJ and hit a J on the river, you're entitled to get a little p*ssed off I certinaly would, any hand I've seen phil loose were he was genuinley outplayed he's taken it well.

If Phil Hellmuth was posting on the bad beats section here they would need more storage.

ntlbell

kincsem wrote:

If Phil Hellmuth was posting on the bad beats section here they would need more storage.

I think roryc is using up enough of it all ready!

padser

ntlbell wrote:

Phil is for me one of the best players in the world, it's not that he's a sore looser, but when you're as good as he is and "Ass Clowns" (--NickyOD) are calling hugge re-raises with KJ and hit a J on the river, you're entitled to get a little p*ssed off I certinaly would, any hand I've seen phil loose were he was genuinley outplayed he's taken it well.

I can never understand the genuine top class player getting so annoyed about gettting bad beats. Do they not realise this is the part of poker that makes the fish keep coming back and throwing their money into near hopeless situations. Poker would be a lot less profitable for Hlemuth if there wernt ppl playing with him willing to call huge raises with KJ.

Ardent

padser wrote:

I can never understand the genuine top class player getting so annoyed about gettting bad beats.

The WSOP main event only comes around only once a year. Poor old Phil was pumped up for it, reckoned he was going to go deep this year.

DeVore

He's a total f*ckin c0ck-jabber of the highest order. I watched him a little off camera with his gaggle of arse-lickin' "fans". He's a brat and a prat and I don't give two sh*ts what how goes he is (or isnt) at poker, I wouldnt talk to the bloke.
Paddy O'Connor from Sligo was on that table with Helmouth and he held the very same hand as Helmuth (AQ) with a SHORTER stack and passed the hand, Helmuth couldnt see past his anger and called all in for what was likely to be a race or AK. Ugly play in my book but he's an ugly person inside from what I could see.

DeV.

Amaru

Ardent wrote:

The WSOP main event only comes around only once a year. Poor old Phil was pumped up for it, reckoned he was going to go deep this year.

Its not just the world series that this happens in, its all the time. Big tournaments, small tournaments, small stakes cash games, high stakes cash games. Hellmuth can't control his tilt, which is why he can't play in The Big Game regularly. If he can't take losing in a game where luck plays a contributing factor, then he shouldn't be playing.

ntlbell

Amaru wrote:

Its not just the world series that this happens in, its all the time. Big tournaments, small tournaments, small stakes cash games, high stakes cash games. Hellmuth can't control his tilt, which is why he can't play in The Big Game regularly. If he can't take losing in a game where luck plays a contributing factor, then he shouldn't be playing.

Right so a guy with 9 bracelts obviously shouldn't be playing and give it up....

Maybe he should join boards for some advice...:rolleyes:

OK

pokertroll

I think he just acts up to the TV cameras.
I played against him in the 1k event at the WSOP and he was a gentleman.
I also took half his chips early on and he took it quite well. He was knocked out of this tournament to a bad beat and he didn't exhibit any of the behavior that you normally see on tv.