Taoiseach defends role of Catholic Church

ArthurDent

Taoiseach defends role of church

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1110/ahernb.html



"Describing the Catholic Church as an important part of civil society, he said its role in managing our primary schools was indispensable and that without it our education system would become unmanageable."

Can someone please explain (a) how we seem to be one of the few countries in Europe that needs a Church to run our schools for us

and (b) even if from a financial point of view this is true - should this be the case in this day and age?

We pay for all the teachers, all the new building work, 95% of the costs of running the school (technically anyway), training of the teachers and yet the churches run 98% of primary schools. I just can't see how this is defensible.

lostexpectation

this is what I was saying, althought looking the hoodiekiller earlier in the Dail transcripts i noticed a list of buildings/grounds that were been transferred to the government, mostly schools and charitable buildings... don't know if that affects
church influence on the poor defencless kids though

mike65

Here is the reporting of Liz O'Donnells observations about the 'special position'
of the Roman Catholic church in this state.

from de examiner

By Michael O’Farrell, Political Reporter
Progressive Democrat TD Liz O’Donnell launched an extraordinary attack on the Catholic Church yesterday.

She said the abuses uncovered in the Ferns report must result in an end to the Church’s “special relationship” with the State.

In a criticism of the Church’s “systematic maladministration and dereliction of duty to protect children,” the PD chief whip also urged an end to the Church’s overall control of most schools.

“The same institution that has been found so wanting, effectively decides who is suitable or not to work in our children’s schools,” she said, adding that the Church should not be consulted on issues like IVF, abortion, stem cell, contraception, adoption, homosexuality or civil marriage.

If the Hierarchy was a cabinet, it would have to resign or be thrown out of office, she said.

“The Church is neither democratic or accountable. In many ways, it is a secret organisation with its own diplomatic service, civil service, laws and self-regulatory codes, which have all failed the public.” She also called for an audit of the Church’s wealth.

“Given the nature and extent of the wrongdoing of this institution against citizens, the Church should be obliged to open up its books. Discovery orders should be made to gain some understanding of the money trail,” she said.

Ms O’Donnell said victims, family members, friends, politicians, gardaí and judges must not be afraid to speak out.

She referred to women isolated and condemned in Magdalene laundries, the non-extradition of paedophile priest Brendan Smyth, the millions paid out by the Archdiocese of Dublin in private settlements and the “immoral silence of the Vatican on the Ferns Report”.

Fine Gael Education spokesperson Olwyn Enright said the abuses must never be repeated.

“This amounted to an institutional disregard for the needs of children and young people, by people in whom the public had placed the utmost trust, and this must never be allowed to happen again,” she said.

Berties response from iol

The Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, tonight sharply rebuked a Government backbencher’s calls to end the special relationship between the state and the Catholic Church in the wake of the damning Ferns Report.

Progressive Democrat TD Liz O’Donnell yesterday launched a scathing attack on bishops and priests and said the damning Ferns Report on clerical child sex abuse should finally end the cosy ties between the Government and the Catholic hierarchy.

She added that the Catholic Church was like a secret society which had failed to protect the nation’s children and couldn’t be trusted or believed anymore.

But Mr Ahern admitted tonight that there was a genuine disappointment among the public at the Ferns Report and an acknowledgement of the hurt and anger of the clerical sex abuse victims.

He added: “Without the input of the church or religious communities we would never have come so far today.

“In many areas we owe a great debt of gratitude to all churches and all faith communities for the contribution they have made to this country over the years.

"The Church is an important part of civil society and is critical to the faith, values and identity of many citizens.”

Mr Ahern also told an audience at the Association of European Journalists that most of the country’s 3,200 primary schools were owned by the church.

“We cannot overlook the unpaid work of the churches in the management and control of schools today.

“If they were to pull tomorrow, we wouldn’t be able to manage the education system. They are instrumental to it and that is the reality of it.”

He also referred to part of Ms O’Donnell’s Dáil speech in which she said the ’cosy phonecalls’ from All Hallow’s priest training college to Government Buildings must stop.

Mr Ahern said his family had a special association with the college as his father worked there for over 50 years and his own house was named All Hallows.

“I do ring and I will ring All Hallows so I’m going to make apologies to nobody including Liz O’Donnell for being in touch with All Hallows,” he said.

Earlier, Minister for Finance Brian Cowen, speaking on behalf of the Government, told the Dáil that the state’s relationship with the Catholic Church should be dispersed to include mature dialogue with all faiths and religions.

Mr Cowen also described yesterday’s calls by coalition colleague Ms O’Donnell to cut ties with the Catholic hierarchy as "illiberal".

The Tullamore TD said: “The draft Constitutional Treaty during our EU presidency states it is the intention of all governments in the EU to continue with a very legitimate dialogue between the faith communities in their societies and governments on the basis of a mature relationship which we seek with all faiths in this pluralist society.

“I would regard it as a thoroughly illiberal idea that such a dialogue shouldn’t take place.”

Ms O’Donnell yesterday told the Dáil during a special parliamentary debate on the Ferns Report: “This report will change forever the special relationship that has existed for many decades between church and state.

The Dublin TD added: “It was extremely influential in terms of outcome. It must end absolutely. Only then can the state act as it should, as we go forward objectively.”

The former junior minister, who admitted she had irreconcilable differences with the Catholic Church, said she had received a “mauling” for criticising the church authorities in 2001 for transferring paedophile priests – a charge which had been comprehensively borne out by the Ferns Report.

The notion that this state somehow owes the Catholic church something at this stage of the game is foolish and frankly dangerous, the Church in question needs to know it does'nt have the state at its beckon call. State education and state health should be paid by ALL the people for ALL the people.

Anyone who fancies faith based education/medicine should pay for it privatly.

Mike.

Solair

I think it's great to see someone FINALLY speaking out in the dail and moving into the 21st century. Fianna Fail was in the church's pocket for decades and left us stuck in the dark ages for far too long.

e.g. I don't think that Fianna Fail was particularly opposed to gay rights, they just didn't have the balls to take on the church and actually discuss the issue in the dail.

Same goes for Fine Gael

It's very definitely time that we start to grow up in this country and not allow ourselves to be bullied by one particular religious organisation. The state simply abdocated from ALL social policy decisions and basically allowed the church to operate vast numbers of what should be state services. i.e. education, social welfare, healthcare etc etc...

We're finally seeing this Republic work as an actual republic and not as a theocracy!

Well done Liz!!

Zombrex

ArthurDent wrote:

I just can't see how this is defensible.

The argument is that without the Church we never would have had these schools in the first place, that the Church provided the framework for an educational system in Ireland when the state was unable or unwilling to do so.

Personaly, I think a lot of that is bulls**t, the church did that but they did it because we let them, not because we needed them to. Don't forget that this revulsion at the church is relatively new. 100-50 years ago the Church could do no wrong. There are a lot of people of my fathers generation and earlier who strongly believe this, and always point out that the "church did a lot of good" when ever these scandals are mentioned.

100gSoma

The comments made by Betie Ahern sickened me. I found his remarks stating that the church was 'indispensable in the management of schools' sickening. I only wish I had a better way to voice my anger and disgust at his comments. He further commented that 'without the Church's input Ireland would not have come so far in recent years'. I am pained to understand how anyone with any intelligence could make such remarks. Even rose tinted glasses cannot brighten the debris left in the wake of the previous 60 years of
church interference in social policy in Ireland.

Please, does anyone feel anyway similar at all? If anything, in thelight of the Ferns report the state should surely be distancing itself from the church. Not reaffirming its cosy relationship.

Article 44 of the constitution. Point 2.

"The state guarantees not to endow any religion"


yeah right.

simu

Yeah, I hope this movement to get the church out of the education system gathers steam and that it becomes an election issue. I certainly would try as much as possible to avoid having any child of mine going through the hours and hours of Catholic indoctrination I suffered as a child!

murphaph

We should just take* the lands and buildings off the church as punishment for years of collective failure to prevent and/or report the most sickening crimes against our most vulnerable citizens.



*Achieving this legally may be difficult!

I wonder, perhaps someone more knowledgable than I could tell me; All those churches built in corporation estates from the 30's Crumlin types to the 80's Blanchardstown types, did they buy that land for those churches or as it just gifted to them from the state or what?

ratboy

without the church's close relationship with the state in areas like education, would there have been the physical and sexual abuse that has wrecked so may lives. the church prevented ireland from moving forward for decades with their bull**** views on culture, divorce and sexual issues. It's time we cut all ties from the catholic church who has a leadership who don't even have the collective dignity to comment on one of the most sickening disgraces of our time, as verified in the ferns report.

parasite

do they still teach religion each day in primary schools these days?
when i was in primary school, there was at least an hour each day for religion, no time for science/modern languages, of course
madness

ratboy

i'm in 6th year and we have two religion classes a week and no P.E, surely there's something wrong there.

Brainwash them while they're young and suggestible

ArthurDent

parasite wrote:

do they still teach religion each day in primary schools these days?
when i was in primary school, there was at least an hour each day for religion, no time for science/modern languages, of course
madness

30 minutes "patron" time every day. In catholic schools how this time is spent is decided by Bishop and yet only 1 hour science and pe per week and no modern languages.

100gSoma

teaching (preaching) religion should not be allowed in 'state public schools'. fcuk that. Too much else to learn. Religion should be a hobby if thats what your into, not a subject at school.

The catholic church is backward as fcuk. imagine, no contraception allowed to be sold until recent times, even with the threat of HIV etc.

This is the same catholic church that banned(through recommendations to the govt.) the sale of tampax tampons in 1949 in the state as they feared it may endanger young girls innocence... hmmm yeah. ok. Lets just leave it to Fr. X to endanger and damage the young girls... losers. all of them...

Im not anti religion, I think everyone should do what they want. but I am anti-church when it acts as a ruling body in the state and is above the law...

Hotblack Desiato

Congratulations to Liz O'Donnell for having the courage to say what so desperately needed to be said - but which no other Irish politician had the guts to say.

Shame on Bertie for his knee-jerk reaction to appease the FF core vote. Yet again at a time when the Irish people desperately need leadership, he utterly fails to provide it.

FF wonder why their core vote is continually shrinking. I wonder what the average age of the FF core voter is by now? Probably over 65.

There is a new Ireland which has no time for this sort of guff, if Bertie can't do the right thing out of conviction he should do the right thing for political reasons, few people under 50 follow the Church line these days, and more and more new parents are irritated by the Catholic stranglehold on state-funded education.

The actions of the Catholic Church in relation to child abuse are akin to a criminal conspiracy - one which protects the organisation's members and the organisation's assets above all.

If it was any other organisation in this position the CAB would be seizing its assets, its leaders charged with conspiracy. Those who shield abusers are as guilty as the abusers themselves.

Yet this bunch claim to offer "moral teaching" to the rest of us? It's sickening to be honest. I pity the honest people within the Catholic Church who have been so badly let down by the hierarchy - and this goes all the way to the very top in Rome.

I wonder what the reaction to a Pope Benedict visit to Ireland would be... Post-Ferns I can't see it happening.

lazydaisy

I've been reading the Ferns report and its full of the government evading responsibility. It will name a victim and say that person went to the guards, but wont name to guard and doesnt include dates of the complaints to the guards. It also doesnt include the govt reponses or lack of responses. What was said and what wasnt. Given that the magdalenes called the guards when girls tried to escape and the guards came and surrounded them and made them stay there, the government is entirely as responsible, as responsible as the parents who had their kids come to them with blood stained clothing after being raped by the clergy and told to keep their mouths shut. The govt and church are co-conspirators in their crimes against the people of Ireland so of course one stands by the other.

Well Good for Bertie, a staunch catholic, so devouted that he wont get divorced but doesnt mind being an adulterer. What a joke.

bonkey

Let me start by saying that in general terms I agree with the concept that the Church is not the appropriate authority to be running the public school system in Ireland.

Wicknight wrote:

The argument is that without the Church we never would have had these schools in the first place, that the Church provided the framework for an educational system in Ireland when the state was unable or unwilling to do so.

Personaly, I think a lot of that is bulls**t, the church did that but they did it because we let them, not because we needed them to.

Are you sure we did not need them?

Ireland had a serious lack of cash, and a want to ensure good education. We got the good education - at least where the system didn't fail - and have reaped the rewards for it. Was the cost too high? Perhaps it was, but what would the cost have been the other way?

Could we have afforded to train all the teachers in place of the Brothers and Sisters who taught our forefathers? Sure, in todays day and age, its a situation where you may have only one or two Christian Brothers amongst the staff, but I know from talking to my parents that in their day it was almsot exactly the reverse.

Don't forget that this revulsion at the church is relatively new. 100-50 years ago the Church could do no wrong. There are a lot of people of my fathers generation and earlier who strongly believe this, and always point out that the "church did a lot of good" when ever these scandals are mentioned.

The church did a lot of good. And the church did pump a lot of money into our education system, and we have - as a nation - reaped the benefits from that.

Could we have done it without them? I'm not sure, but its irrelevant. We can't change the past. We didn't do it without them and we must bear the cost of that as much as we reap the rewards.

Do we still need them, especially in positions of such authority within our education system? Almost certainly not, but I'd be interested in hearing counter-argument. The "they did a lot of good in the past" line says nothing to me about their ongoing suitability.

Does the good they did excuse in any way the various atrocities (for atrocious they were) they were responsible for? No. Not in the slightest.

grubber

The simple and sensible answer is to take religion out of education. They've done it in the USA and France and those societies are not falling apart.

Begone with ye!

MrPudding

My kids go to the French School here in Dublin. Religion is one hour per week as an extra-curricular activity, which is not required. I like that a lot.

It is a shame you have to pay to get your children educated without brainwashing, it really should be the other way around.

MrP

Nuttzz

murphaph wrote:

We should just take* the lands and buildings off the church as punishment for years of collective failure to prevent and/or report the most sickening crimes against our most vulnerable citizens.



*Achieving this legally may be difficult!

I wonder, perhaps someone more knowledgable than I could tell me; All those churches built in corporation estates from the 30's Crumlin types to the 80's Blanchardstown types, did they buy that land for those churches or as it just gifted to them from the state or what?

I was called a nazi for saying the same thing...

FF made a cozy deal with the church so Berties comments arent a surprise tbh

100gSoma

Does this guy sicken anyone else.... I hope he has commited political suicide with his comments. what a knob jockey.


Ahern refuses to answer questions on church-state links
11/11/2005 - 11:32:11

The Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has walked out on reporters who questioned him about his defence of the church's relationship with the State.

Yesterday, Mr Ahern defended the church's involvement in the Irish education system and its overall role in Irish society following stinging criticism earlier this week from Progressive Democrats TD Liz O'Donnell.

Ms O'Donnell said the church could not be trusted to tell the truth in the wake of the clerical child sex abuse scandal in Ferns.

She also said the church's involvement in education should be re-examined and its finances should be independently audited.

When Mr Ahern was questioned about the matter before a Fáilte Ireland conference in Dublin today, he walked away from reporters and refused to answer any questions.

His handlers had earlier told the media that he would only speak about tourism.



The Taoiseach's defence of the church has already sparked criticism from a number of areas.

The One in Four support group has described his comments as "ill-timed and poorly judged", saying the good works of the church did not cancel out the rape and abuse of children.

Labour Party TD Liz McManus, meanwhile, said Mr Ahern had displayed an ignorance of the full implications of the Ferns scandal.

"The Ferns Report shows a high level of depravity and cover-up by the institutional church, as well as negligence by the State," she said.

"The Taoiseach's response was grossly defective. It offended the survivors of abuse. It didn't appreciate the importance of reform when it comes to the education of our children."

lostexpectation

yes the gov and local authorities police, parents and bypassers, you and me were as much to blame for all the ills in society back then and now but lets leave them for another day.

we've sat back and watched with relief the catholic church lose power and influence over the years but has anyone actually actively fought to remove/reduce the churches undue, undeserved influence?

Liz O'Donnell words were shockingly stong coming from a politician but then she's PD so it worries me when I have the same view as her

glad to hear this though...

--

Earlier, the CEO of the National Parents' Council for Primary Schools said parents are not being offered a choice in how they want their children educated.

Fionnuala Kilfeather, said the council believed in the right of parental choice, as set out in the constitution. She also said there had been many changes in Irish society over the last several decades.

However, Fr Dan O'Connel, of the Catholic Primary Schools Association, said that studies show that the majority of people are satisfied that the church should manage schools.

--


has anyone been invovled in parent-teachers group who tried to remove their influence

ArthurDent

lostexpectation wrote:

we've sat back and watched with relief the catholic church lose power and influence over the years but has anyone actually actively fought to remove/reduce the churches undue, undeserved influence?


has anyone been invovled in parent-teachers group who tried to remove their influence

I've been involved in setting up an Educate Together School in my area, cos I wanted a multidenominational school for my kids. I've done it gladly, but it is a crazy situation where you have to get a bunch of parents together and locate a place for the school, prove its viability before the Govt gets off its backside to give it recognition.
This organisation have been doing this for over 30 years www.educatetogether.ie
and they are in the middle of a funding crisis - only receiving €42k per annum to do so. So if you feel like doing something about who manages schools you could do worse than clicking on their site and offering them support.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/2_campaigns/corefunding.html


AD

The comments are ill timed and unnecessary imho.

But one could praise the role of parents in society, despite the appalling sexual and physical abuse perpetrated on children by some parents, and I suspect they're wouldn't be such an outcry.

Out of curiosity-who runs the Gael Scoils? I presume they have to go through the same procedure? They are very very popular around here anyway.
And what happens at non fee paying secondary level as regards independent ethos schools ?

ArthurDent

Earthman wrote:

Out of curiosity-who runs the Gael Scoils? I presume they have to go through the same procedure? They are very very popular around here anyway.
And what happens at non fee paying secondary level as regards independent ethos schools ?

Gaelscoils have joint patrons - An Foras Patrunach and either RC/COI bishops and one is under joint ET An Foras Patrunach. Most have a catholic ethos, but 1 or 2 are co-denominational.

lostexpectation

This organisation have been doing this for over 30 years www.educatetogether.ie

they are the only org I've heard doing this, (apart from Gaileschools I presume they're multidenominational )

and they are in the middle of a funding crisis - only receiving €42k per annum to do so. So if you feel like doing something about who manages schools you could do worse than clicking on their site and offering them support.

I wonder what one can do, Im nowhere near having children of my own, ( im still an angry little child myself . I suppose most people only get involved in these sort of things when they have kids. Theres aload of issues with schools that needs sorting out. I don't really lobby but I will send a letter not criticising the church but supporting Educate together and their ilk, thats positive.

..ok I read some of the page very interesting, and no publicly funded, non-religious secondary schools in the state at all?

and this

"As the State does not open any new schools itself, Educate Together takes on the challenge of opening schools in areas of rapid housing growth and among new communities. These are often areas where there is a chronic shortage of school places"

So while a large new estate is built, the Dept of Ed doesn't build a school with local stakeholders ? Does the local diocese noy do it.

All the schools near me are lacking students afaik *shrug*

ratboy

the fact is the church is criminal organisation. Their leadership has for years protected criminal priest from the law and the state should not associate themselves with criminal organistion, they don't go near sinn fein.

ratboy

ratboy wrote:

the fact is the church is criminal organisation.

It's these sort of glib overstatements that completely cheapen any argument. It becomes even weaker when someone who is obviously expressing 'an opinion' states 'the fact is...'

The Church has huge questions to answer - and their role in education may be objectionable - but others have questions to answer too; swimming coaches, teachers, Gardai, social workers, parents, siblings...in fact I'm trying to see who is not a criminal...

ArthurDent

Deleted User wrote:

It's these sort of glib overstatements that completely cheapen any argument. It becomes even weaker when someone who is obviously expressing 'an opinion' states 'the fact is...'

The Church has huge questions to answer - and their role in education may be objectionable - but others have questions to answer too; swimming coaches, teachers, Gardai, social workers, parents, siblings...in fact I'm trying to see who is not a criminal...

Interesting Conor,
in your laundry list of people who have a question to answer that the Govt is missing - don't they (and all previous Govts) have to bear some of the responsibility too?

ratboy

over 100 people got abused in the ferns diocese by over 30 priest. That's on diocese, when they do reports on all the others, we'll see the full and i suspect horrifying scale of abuse and criminal activity within the church, this,in my eyes, makes them a highly criminal organisation. I don't think most of their policies are criminal and i admire the work of so many great priest and their great work in education and other areas, hell i go to school run originally by brothers, but i think the idea of the church being continually allowed such a huge role in schools is absurd considering their criminal history in recent times.

ArthurDent

ArthurDent wrote:

Interesting Conor,
in your laundry list of people who have a question to answer that the Govt is missing - don't they (and all previous Govts) have to bear some of the responsibility too?

They do. They employ the Gardai, teachers, social workers etc. in the list.

Either way, child abuse is a problem that arises in society and one that society must face, not try and pigeonhole it as a problem for priests only and then make statements like 'the Church are all criminals anyway'. That's simply ignoring the problem and saying it's all somebody else's fault...

TomF

Bertie only tried to balance O'Donnell-Carson's rant with some facts. For God's sake, even the full-of-hate Vincent Browne says that 96% of priests are good and holy men. You could do any number of studies and come up with the same result that abuse happens where children are in the hands (oops) of male adults other than their parents for long periods of time. Most of the Church-bashing is from adolescents who don't want to get up early for Mass on Sundays and Holy Days and have seized upon the abuse scandals with glad hands (oops).

Maybe the teaching and caring orders should send the Irish government a bill for the lives of their members spent in teaching our children. I'm sure the total would be a whopper and would set the representatives of the Celtic Tiger running for cover back to Dartry and environs.

ArthurDent

TomF wrote:

Maybe the teaching and caring orders should send the Irish government a bill for the lives of their members spent in teaching our children. I'm sure the total would be a whopper and would set the representatives of the Celtic Tiger running for cover back to Dartry and environs.

Tell you what I'd swap that bill for the full liability for the claims against the state for abuse (looking at a minimum of €1 billion, of which the church is currently reneging on their €127million) - I still reckon we'd come out ahead. And anyway - are you telling me that teachers who were members of religious orders weren't paid for their teching services? Are you sure about that- since the establishment of the national schools?

bonkey

TomF wrote:

You could do any number of studies and come up with the same result that abuse happens where children are in the hands (oops) of male adults other than their parents for long periods of time.

Unless those studies are already done, I'd say thats nothing but idle speculation.

Regardless, its not whether or not any other group would yield the same level of abuse thats the issue. Its whether or not any other group would help cover up such abuse, and whether or not they should be allowed to do so freely, and whether or not the abusers should be brought to justice.

I would imagine, TomF, that if some male babysitter abused a relative of yours, you wouldn't be saying its no big deal because, sure, 5% (or whatever figure you picked) of male babysitters are just gonna be like that statistically, and sure, we should just forget about the whole thing.

And I guarantee that whether or not the babysitter was earning a paycheck for their sitting would be the last thing you'd see as a reason for mitigation.

Honestly. If the church want to be able to maintain a claim of responsibly, then they have to act responsibly. This involves nothing short of full, open, honest cooperation with the law in investigating allegations of abuse and in any resultant cases. Have they done this?

jc

Cronus333

FF are ridiculous. They are defending the undefendable. I'm liking the PDs more and more....

Cork

ratboy wrote:

over 100 people got abused in the ferns diocese by over 30 priest. That's on diocese, when they do reports on all the others, we'll see the full and i suspect horrifying scale of abuse and criminal activity within the church, this,in my eyes, makes them a highly criminal organisation.

There was also much abuse happening outside the church. That in no way makes up how badly church authoritys dealt with it.

The church did provide education and schools. I for one benefited and I am very grateful to my old secondary school.

Berties comments were only reflecting both sides of Church activity. He showed courage in coming being balanced.

Maskhadov

To be honest I wish the government would finally cut the cord with the church and bring anyone who is gulity of abuse to court. I agree totally with the PD's and think its high time we sorted this cosy relationship out.

I would like a modern nation without the church having a direct line to the Taoiseach. I think we should have all the different churches in some kind of a body to act in a general advisory capacity but completly removed from near the government.

AndyWarhol

Specifically on the issue of Catholic denominational schools,

Firstly, pretty much all schools in the country are state-funded, including private fee-paying schools such as Clongowes, Belvedere, Alexandra, etc. There is no denying the fact that Catholic ethos schools are providing an invaluable state function both presently and in the past.

My feeling on the issue of state-funding for schools is that if the state want to secularise education, this policy should not infringe on the wishes of parents who want their children educated in a catholic/protestant/muslim environment. Education is a right, not a privilige and the case of aethist families wishing a secular education should not be above the wishes of a religous family who require a school with religous grounding.

Therefore, I would favour a scaling back of the number of Catholic-by-name schools and the establishment of real Catholic schools whose parents attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and would engage with the school. The remaining schools could be sold or put to other uses by the Church. I don't see the point in having Catholic schools when it is quite obvious that the atendees openly dismiss the church authorities.

Religion is only a part of a child's education, and there is a national academic cirriculum that all children must adhere to. In this sense, I don't what the big fuss is with the state funding denomonational schools. The issue of Catholic schools is an attempt by liberals to pass off religion as some kind of private supernatural opinion, when in fact for a lot of people, their belief in God and subsequent moral teaching is what roots their entire lives. The popular (and hypocritical) activity that is 'church-bashing' will soon wear off, once such liberals realise that the society they have created is one of violence, perversion, vanity and a belief in nothingness in which truth is opinion.

TomF

Very thoughtful and interesting post, AndyWarhol! And a very good point that maybe there are too many Catholic schools with too many Catholic-in-name-only students attending from families of a like ethos. My own children were very dismissive, even at a tender age, of the quality of religious education in their secondary schools in Co. Cork, and were lucky that they already had a firm grounding in their faith through earlier educational experience and their extended family. They find that many of their friends from their days in Cork never attend Mass and have only the slightest knowledge of Catholicism beyond what they read in the papers (probably only the headlines and the like of the Saturday edition rants in the columns of the Irish Times) or what they view on the television. They pass their pseudo-knowledge around in their peer groups and find support in common ignorance. It is pure herd mentality.

lostexpectation

My feeling on the issue of state-funding for schools is that if the state want to secularise education, this policy should not infringe on the wishes of parents who want their children educated in a catholic/protestant/muslim environment. Education is a right, not a privilige and the case of aethist families wishing a secular education should not be above the wishes of a religous family who require a school with religous grounding.

-Where is it that the wishes of relgious families are being overrun by aethists families in terms of -education theres,nowhere, there not enough schools for people who do not wish to educated by -the Catholic Church.

The remaining schools could be sold or put to other uses by the Church.

-No those schools should be given to (multidenominational) trust via the state.

-Your last paragraph is crock, lack of religion does not mean lack of morals or values.

-And its not even that I think that the influence of religion be reduced in schools, because most people in ireland still believe in God, (even if they've left -the Catholic Church) I believe the influence of the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland should be reduced.

lostexpectation

With "education" being the cargo.





What's a cargo cult? Search for it.

ArthurDent

AndyWarhol wrote:

Specifically on the issue of Catholic denominational schools,

Education is a right, not a privilige and the case of aethist families wishing a secular education should not be above the wishes of a religous family who require a school with religous grounding.

I absolutely agree with you - education is a fundmental human right and you are absolutely right no one group should have the say on the type of education available to all - indeed Article 42 of the constitution guarentees the right of parents to choose an educational model that does not conflict with their ethos.

Article 42.3.1 “ The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

Article 42.3.2 “The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

Article 42.4 “ The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.


but that is exactly the situaton we have at the moment and to turn your agrument on its head religious families wishing a denominational education should not be above the wishes of an athiest family who require a school with no denominational grounding.

98% of our primary schools are denominational - so how about a choice for parents to choose what is best for their child? 98% of parents DO NOT want denominational education. The only survey I can find on this is http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/yes_survey_report.pdf
and a mojority of people surveyed indicated a desire for either non- or multidenominational schools and for provision of religious instruction outside of class hours (see page 35)

AndyWarhol

ArthurDent wrote:

but that is exactly the situaton we have at the moment and to turn your agrument on its head religious families wishing a denominational education should not be above the wishes of an athiest family who require a school with no denominational grounding.

98% of our primary schools are denominational - so how about a choice for parents to choose what is best for their child? 98% of parents DO NOT want denominational education. The only survey I can find on this is http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/yes_survey_report.pdf
and a mojority of people surveyed indicated a desire for either non- or multidenominational schools and for provision of religious instruction outside of class hours (see page 35)

Nobody is forcing aethisists to attend Catholic schools. There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about. As you say, 2% of primary schools are non-denomonational so I guess the parents will have to buy a house near one the same way that Catholic parents choose houses near appropriate schools for their children.

The problem that only 2% (from your figures) of schools are non-denominational is not the Catholic church's fault. Parents should complain to their local politicians for suitable educational facilities; instead of church-bashing, they should really see the wider issue and start department of education bashing.

I wouldn't (and don't) have a problem with funding my local Catholic school as they do wonderful work and it's great to see all the children making their first holy communions and confirmation each year. The Catholic church should not be expected to abolish all this in the name of political correctness since they have worked long and hard to make things thus.

I see the need for more non-denomonational schools, given the number of hypocritical parents who send their children to denomonational schools. But it's a political issue and not one for the Catholic authorities.

Of course the issue of state funding now comes in to play, but aren't almost all teachers salarys and building extensions in this country paid for by the state regardless of the school's denomonation? Indeed private schools get a large chunk of their budget from the state too. All schools are adhering to the national cirriculum and educating responsible adults for the future.

We can't have our cake and eat it: if we want the fine lands for non-denomonational schools, we must pay for them through our taxes. Having said this, I predict the church will close down some schools (perhaps sell off land) in response to dwindling faith and reorganise themselves as leaner, cleaner educators for tomorrow's elite.

lostexpectation

why not just re-organise _some_ if not most the schools that exist so that all faiths and none can be caterred as his pointed out so well by ET and arthurdent.

98% of in schools in Ireland are denominational (mostly the Catholic church.)

and your response to this is

"There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about."?

--
The problem that only 2% (from your figures) of schools are non-denominational is not the Catholic church's fault. Parents should complain to their local politicians for suitable educational facilities; instead of church-bashing, they should really see the wider issue and start department of education bashing.

There's has been no church bashing in this discussion of education and the efforts ET and co.

Im guessing here. Do the Catholic Church really deserve the profit from the sales of schools, who paid for them in the first place, it must have been the state via tax and locals funding them. So why should they then profit in selling them on to other locals? (Those they aren't using for compensating money to those that they abused :P ).

I tell you what the Dept of Education should do, it should take some of those 98% of schools and make them truely multi-denomintional as well as everything else. (Oh look thats exactly what you said would be church bashing.)

AndyWarhol

lostexpectation wrote:

-Where is it that the wishes of relgious families are being overrun by aethists families in terms of -education theres,nowhere, there not enough schools for people who do not wish to educated by -the Catholic Church.

This insistence that Catholic schools be secularised to accomodate non-believers is an utterly preposterous idea and would not be tolerated by the Catholic authorities (indeed any other religous authorities).

Again, the issue of there being not enough schools is an issue for the state.

lostexpectation wrote:

-No those schools should be given to (multidenominational) trust via the state.

'Given' to the state? And just carry on happy as larry? What exactly does 'multidenominational' mean? I don't think the Catholic church (or many other religions) would tolerate such a 'multidenomonational' umbrella body. Religous relativism and all that. Sure, according to you, what interest have the state got in religion anyway?

lostexpectation wrote:

-Your last paragraph is crock, lack of religion does not mean lack of morals or values.

mmm. I wonder where moral sense comes from then? (Could be debated with the humanists in Soc>Humanities). Anyway, a lot of people adopt so-called 'christian' values whether they are conscious of it or not: they have an inherent sense of what is right and what is wrong whilst at the same time rejecting any notion of God and that they, as individuals, know best.

lostexpectation wrote:

-And its not even that I think that the influence of religion from be reduce in schools, because most people in ireland still believe in God, (even if they left the Catholic Church) I believe the influence of the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland should be reduced.

Left the church and still believe in God eh? You mean a God? Interesting you 'believe' the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland should be reduced. Well the last census would indicate otherwise with the vast majority of citizens classifying themselves as Catholics. I guess people will make up their own minds when it comes to electing liberal heretics into power.

mike65

Originally Posted by lostexpectation

Nobody is forcing aethisists to attend Catholic schools. There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about. As you say, 2% of primary schools are non-denomonational

One of the faster contradictions I've read on boards.ie

so I guess the parents will have to buy a house near one the same way that Catholic parents choose houses near appropriate schools for their children.

And how many kilometres is that? Catholic Parent/Catholic school average -
prolly 4 kms, non Catholic parent/non Catholic school average - prolly 40 kms

The Catholic church should not be expected to abolish all this in the name of political correctness since they have worked long and hard to make things thus.

No one is suggesting Catholic schools cease being Catholic, rather that there is a ready alternative to Schools rooted in the majoirty faith.

Think through what you're writing before you hit reply.

Mike.

AndyWarhol

mike65 wrote:

One of the faster contradictions I've read on boards.ie



And how many kilometres is that? Catholic Parent/Catholic school average -
prolly 4 kms, non Catholic parent/non Catholic school average - prolly 40 kms



No one is suggesting Catholic schools cease being Catholic, rather that there is a ready alternative to Schools rooted in the majoirty faith.

Think through what you're writing before you hit reply.

Mike.

You've selectively quoted me, whilst conveniently ignoring the major points I was making. Deal with my argument as a whole and stop being so nit-picky.



*Post 200, yay!*

lostexpectation

Who the hell uses the word heretic in the 21st century??????

We'll agree to disagree ok


"Nobody is forcing aethisists to attend Catholic schools. There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about. As you say, 2% of primary schools are non-denomonational"

this quote was from Mr Taliban (Andy Warhol) as you know mike just pointing it out :0)

lostexpectation

Left the church and still believe in God eh? You mean a God? Interesting you 'believe' the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland should be reduced. Well the last census would indicate otherwise with the vast majority of citizens classifying themselves as Catholics. [/QUOTE]

What I am saying is that an increasing number have and are leaving the Roman Catholic Church but still believe in some type of God or a Catholic God, but wish to have little association with the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland, the one that own all the schools ya know.

ArthurDent

AndyWarhol wrote:

Nobody is forcing aethisists to attend Catholic schools. There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about. As you say, 2% of primary schools are non-denomonational so I guess the parents will have to buy a house near one the same way that Catholic parents choose houses near appropriate schools for their children.

The problem that only 2% (from your figures) of schools are non-denominational is not the Catholic church's fault. Parents should complain to their local politicians for suitable educational facilities; instead of church-bashing, they should really see the wider issue and start department of education bashing...

Either you're having a laugh here or you just don't understand the arguement. The 2% figure is not mine - it's the Dept of Education's figure: approx 3200 primary schools 39 of whom are multidenominational - interesting definition of plenty!So saying parents will have to buy a house near one, like catholics do is just plain ridiculous. Over 60% of people surveyed in that survey I linked above indicated support for setting up of non-denominational schools. And a majority of people also favoured a method of schooling which was either non or multi denominational( and that's a Government survey).

And saying that parents should complain to local politicians for suitable education, while this is true - indicates your level of ignorance about the whole school building process works. The Dept does not just decide - hey here's a new area of population (or d'ya know the demographics have changed here),maybe we should build a school - no the process of school foundation in this state is NOT by the state. Our state relies on patrons to come forward and establish a school in an area based on a demand for a school. That is the reality of how the education system works here and the vast majority of schools opened over the past 5 years have been multidenominational, because there is a demand from parents for this type of schooling.

AndyWarhol wrote:

I see the need for more non-denomonational schools, given the number of hypocritical parents who send their children to denomonational schools. But it's a political issue and not one for the Catholic authorities..

How can you define parents as "hypocritical" sending their children to denominational schools? If that is their only choice - what the hell are they supposed to do, be conscientious objectors and keep their kids out of school? 98% of primary schools are denominational.

I think it's great that you are happy with the education system for your children, I really am. It would be nice to see that you had the generousity of spirit to see that perhaps one size does not fit all and that choice should be available to other parents so that they are not forced to send their child to a school that conflicts with their belief system and ethos.

And by the way not everyone that chooses an Educate Together School are "heretics", some of the most committed members of our school community are deeply religious practising catholics who happen to believe that doctrinal instruction has no place in school, that it is an individual matter for parents and their religious denomination (and they prefer that their children receive this instruction outside school hours).