Catholicism in modern Ireland

Vangelis

I know nothing about this myself so, I'm curious to know Irish people's experience of how Catholicism has influenced modern Ireland.

Sleepy

Personally I've found it to have next to no influence on my life since I left secondary school education (aside from being a minor irritant). The church's influence in the education system is quite far-reaching however, the school I attended would have force-fed us all quite a heavy anti-abortion stance.

If historical influence is taken into account it's influences are quite clearer in terms of the numbers of abuse victims coming to light and government spending in relation to that. While not begrudging the victims their compensation, I'm sure those millions could have been quite useful in other areas of government spending.

Crucifix

Sleepy wrote:

Personally I've found it to have next to no influence on my life since I left secondary school education (aside from being a minor irritant). The church's influence in the education system is quite far-reaching however

Same here. Although I suppose in the broader sense you could say there are numerous ways in which it has influenced the way our society is today.

Vangelis

Thanks for sharing! It's interesting.
More comments, more comments, come along, come along!

simu

It's held Ireland back imo. I think people are finally starting to see through the facade though.

Vangelis

simu, what kind of facade is that?

Dave!

I agree, it's held Ireland back, made it the bastion of conservatism it is today. But with regards schools, the priests were probably invaluable.

The country is evolving now, though, and shaking off the Church.

SparkyLarks

In recent years people have started to disregard the church in Ireland, and it might not have any influence on the lives of many young people today, but our society was shaped by the church, some of it was bad but some of it was good.

The church did contribute enormously to Irish society. yes there were abuses,and those should be condemmed and whatever help can be given to victims given as well as whatever steps needed toensure it never happens again should be taken.

The church also did a lot of good.
They have been involved in education since the hedge shcools. Irish peole place a high importance on education, that is because of the influence of the church. Because we place a high importance oneducation we now have a highly educated workforce and a thriving economy bacaue se of it( I'm not saying that the church caused the celtic tiger )

Nun's used to run the hospitals, and we used to have clean hospitals then. They performed an enormous service to the state in regards to health.

People are very quickto say the church did this the church that. The people are the church. The views of the people were reflected by the church and the views of the church reflected by the people.

Sleepy

SparkyLarks wrote:

yes there were abuses,and those should be condemmed and whatever help can be given to victims given as well as whatever steps needed toensure it never happens again should be taken.

All fine and dandy but expecting the general public to pay for it when the Catholic church is one of richest organisations in the world is a bit much imho.

The church also did a lot of good. They have been involved in education since the hedge shcools. Irish peole place a high importance on education, that is because of the influence of the church. Because we place a high importance oneducation we now have a highly educated workforce and a thriving economy bacaue se of it( I'm not saying that the church caused the celtic tiger )

How do you reckon that it's "because of the influence of the church" that Irish peole place a high importance on education? And if you genuinely see it this way do you see the irony in the fact that a better educated Ireland is rejecting the church en masse?

Sure, the church has had some positive influences in Ireland but thankfully we don't need their particular brand of help anymore.

Vangelis

Would you guys say that Ireland is becoming a secular country?

ratboy

slowly but surely we are becoming alot more secular, i don't think the church have much moral feet to stand on after the horrors told in the ferns report.

Vangelis

Can the church annulate a marriage in which the husband is impotent or they do not want to or cannot have children?

Dave!

Vangelis wrote:

Would you guys say that Ireland is becoming a secular country?

Oh yeah I'd definitely say that Ireland is moving further and further away from the Church. Each generation gets less and less religious (or at least, Christian).

simu

Vangelis wrote:

simu, what kind of facade is that?

Hmmm... the Church seems far more interested in maintaining power over people than spreading Jesus' message and providing spiritual guidance imo.

Nevyn

Vangelis wrote:

Can the church annulate a marriage in which the husband is impotent or they do not want to or cannot have children?

http://landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/grounds_annul.htm
Many and varied the the reasons for anullment.

After the tragedies of the Magdelane Laundries, the treatment of unmarried
pregant women, the sale of thos babies for adoption in america, the abuse of children both in parishes and in care and on work farms; these examples alone are enough reason for the complete seperation of church and state.

The idea of sex and sexuality being so dirty and taboo and the lack of a health
based sexual eduction stem from catholisim; which results in teen pregancies and stis. We need a system that teaches sexuality, dignity and resposibilty
like the one in sweden. I remember the archbishop's letter denoucing condom machines that were put up in colleges and the fact they were being sold in the virgin mega store in dublin city centre.

If Catholics are not ment to use then fair and fine enough but what right to
they or the catholic church have to tell anyone else what to do.

The modren catholic church needs it imho tend to it's flock, those who atend
mass on a sunday and are willing to follow all the rules as laid down as how to
live your life as a catholic, and draw a clear line as to those who are of that
sort and those who are cultural catholics and never darken the door of the church between the time of thier child's baptism and then the child's communion.

And then when it has been sorted out who really is a catholic we can all see what the true numbers are.

I don't expect the catholic church to changes it's hardlines on anything but they can no longer expect legislature to do thier job for them.
If they want to guide and guard the souls that are entrusted to them fair enough but they will just have to accept they can't have them all and can't
force what they see as a sin and wrong on the rest of the population.

Vangelis

Thank you Thaed. That was an interesting post.
The reasons for annullment are shocking though. The one that touches me most is:

"You or your spouse did not know that marriage is a permanent relationship between a man and a woman ordered toward the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation."

There is no such place in the Bible where it says that marriage has one purpose and that is procreation! ! !

And God does not mean for us humans to feel ashamed at sexuality. Sexuality is important. It's a major communication tool and is important for bonding and togetherness. Now I'm not talking about one-night-stands.

However, the Catholic church is so arrogant.

Thaedydal wrote:

If they want to guide and guard the souls that are entrusted to them fair enough but they will just have to accept they can't have them all and can't force what they see as a sin and wrong on the rest of the population.

Exactly!! I myself as a Christian do not support an imposition of my faith or anything related to my faith on society. We can choose what way we desire to live and an institution should not prepare our lives for us. But then you can argue that not just the Church does this. Laws do it - all the time. And I mean secular laws. It is because of the Christian tradition that killing is prohibited for example.

What worries me is if there will be a complete downfall in the moral of society if the Church is not allowed to give guidelines and opinions that can affect legislation.

Will we lose our values? What will the Irish society be like if the Church is separated from the state authority?

What will secularism do to Ireland and people's moral?

hairyheretic

Vangelis wrote:

Exactly!! I myself as a Christian do not support an imposition of my faith or anything related to my faith on society. We can choose what way we desire to live and an institution should not prepare our lives for us. But then you can argue that not just the Church does this. Laws do it - all the time. And I mean secular laws. It is because of the Christian tradition that killing is prohibited for example.

No, it isn't.

If that were the case then you wouldn't see laws against killing in other cultures.

Every modern culture that I am familiar with has rules against killing. So did most of the historical ones (the others having killing permitted under various circumstances).

Whatever your beliefs, most people would agree that killing is a bad thing.

Vangelis wrote:

What worries me is if there will be a complete downfall in the moral of society if the Church is not allowed to give guidelines and opinions that can affect legislation.

Why should any religious institution be allowed to influence secular laws that will affect those who do not subscribe to that religion?

Vangelis wrote:

Will we lose our values?

You have your own values. These cannot be taken away from you. Only you can decide to live them, or reject them.

Vangelis wrote:

What will the Irish society be like if the Church is separated from the state authority?

I don't see it worsening, if that is what you mean.

Vangelis wrote:

What will secularism do to Ireland and people's moral?

Nothing. Morality is not defined by religion. Every person, religious, spiritual, secular, or whatever, has their own moral values. Everyones are going to be personal.

Removing the catholic churches influence from secular life will do nothing to those values.

Vangelis

You have answered your about all of your own questions there.

We have some common values, not just individual. Common values make a society stable. A disintegration of values may cause a society to disperse in my opinion.

Many people believe killing is justifiable.

What about sexual moral? Thanks to churches, we've had brothels prohibited in many countries. Will they be legalised in a secular sociey? Don't know if they are in Ireland anyway.

hairyheretic wrote:

If that were the case then you wouldn't see laws against killing in other cultures.

Which cultures?

Nevyn

That seems to be the big fear that if poeple are not christian or religous that
they have no morals at all. Morality and religion can be seperate.

Children are taught what is right and wrong and what is not socailly acceptible
long before what is and is not a sin.

By the time all children have reached finished the first 6 mnths of schooling in
junior infants they know what is allowed and what is not.
They learn that hurting the other children with fists, feet or words is not allowed.
They learn that other children have feelings like they do and compassion for others.
They learn that other children may look differnet, have differnt names, different ways of speaking and differnt famlies but they are all children like them.
They learn to respect each others space and property and the property of the school; not to take things that are not thier not do scribble pages that are not thiers.
They learn to respect thier teacher and the other adults in the school.
They learn to say please and thank you.
They learn to listen and to question.
They learn to mind each other and to help each other.
They learn to have pride in thier achievements and in themsleves.

Now if only the adults could remember these things and act and live in this way.

Many cultures have laws/costums/tradtions against killing and christianty has
it's own issues with it ah yes the crusades, convert or die.....

Personally I do find it insulting that christians presume that if you are not a christain
you are immoral and can not know right from wrong and will therefore rear your children to be monsters.

GuanYin

While I'd be slow to praise the catholic churches influence in Ireland, I do think the whole Python-esque "What have the Romans (catholics) ever done for us" skit works well here.

For starters, the general education system in Ireland is of a good standard due in large part to the efforts of the catholic church. The preservation of much of Irish culture (love it or hate it) in language, music and tradtion can be attributed to the work of parish communities, organised by the priests.

The Irish emphasis on family and community has many parallels with the emphasis placed by the catholic church on such things and can probably be, at least partly attributed to that. On this note, while all the paedophile priests grab the headlines, there are many good decent priests doinggood work in the communities, especially some of the more underprivilidged communities in Ireland.

The actions of the men in the catholic church and their corruption and drive for power, is, strictly speaking, not catholicism.

Thaedydal wrote:

The modren catholic church needs it imho tend to it's flock, those who atend
mass on a sunday and are willing to follow all the rules as laid down as how to
live your life as a catholic, and draw a clear line as to those who are of that
sort and those who are cultural catholics and never darken the door of the church between the time of thier child's baptism and then the child's communion.

They tried to do this in Kerry. One of the Bishops refused to allow any child who's parents did not attend mass, make their communion.

There was national outrage in response, citing discrimination to the poor child who didn't know any better.

The problem is that so many of the catholic churches ceremonies have long passed from religious doctrine into cultural tradition (such as first communion and baptism).

Thaedydal wrote:

I don't expect the catholic church to changes it's hardlines on anything but they can no longer expect legislature to do thier job for them.
If they want to guide and guard the souls that are entrusted to them fair enough but they will just have to accept they can't have them all and can't
force what they see as a sin and wrong on the rest of the population.

Agreed. I think they went down the wrong path when they started trying to control and restrict peoples actions by telling them what they can't do (although if you judge the 10 commandments, this is an inherent flaw in christianity), rather than guiding them towards what they should be doing.

Nevyn

Vangelis there have always been brothels in Dublin.
They ran as collectives of women and in many cases were well known and
respected and looked after by people in thier communities.
Many of the first daycare drop in places in the city were infact brothels.
Do some research on James Joyce and you will see.

There is, was, and always will be prostitution as long as there are men and women.
Better it be legalised to protect the women and men working in it tbh.
Currently prostitution is not illegal in this country, running a brothel is and so s solcitating.

Catholics and christains should be strong enough in thier faith no matter where they are living and what the laws are.
There are many other religions that manage thier people and thier communties with out the need to make what is taboo to them personally illegal.

hairyheretic

Vangelis wrote:

You have answered your about all of your own questions there.

Because morality can only be a personal thing.

Vangelis wrote:

We have some common values, not just individual.

I didn't mean to imply that we didn't. We likely do share quite a few common values.

Vangelis wrote:

Common values make a society stable. A disintegration of values may cause a society to disperse in my opinion.

I can't see that happening myself.

Vangelis wrote:

Many people believe killing is justifiable.

Yes, they do, even when specifically prohibited by religious or secular authority. I wonder what that says about human nature?

Vangelis wrote:

What about sexual moral?

What about them?

How is what consenting adults do the business of anyone but themselves?

Considering recent scandals the catholic church has exactly zero authority in trying to preach sexual morality right now.

Vangelis wrote:

Thanks to churches, we've had brothels prohibited in many countries. Will they be legalised in a secular sociey? Don't know if they are in Ireland anyway.

I'm not sure about Ireland, but prostitution and brothels are legal in several countries .. the U.S, Australia, Germany, Holland, and likely more. As none of those countries appear to have gone up in the fires of anarchy, I can't see what problem the brothels are

I've also seen plenty of ads for assorted escort services around Dublin, so prostitution is hardly an unknown here.

I believe there was a thread on prostitution not so long ago, which probably covered all the pro and con arguements on that score.

And why exactly is the church so concerned about peoples sexual activity anyway? Thats something I've never really understood.

Vangelis wrote:

Which cultures?

How about asian ones, where christianity is not a large factor. Japan, for instance.

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

How about asian ones, where christianity is not a large factor. Japan, for instance.

Yep. legal here too as long as the taxes are paid. As a matter of fact, in the Edo period, prostitution was a very influential profession, and still is today in the world of the Geisha, well not the Geisha, but her apprentice, the Maiko.
And here you are talking megabucks.

Chong

Having read the thread I thought I should share my opinions. I myself am practising catholic, it has been enstilled me ever since I was born. My mother plays major factor in my the love of my faith. My mother originates from England born to an Irish family, to be catholic in England was never hard for her as the English on the whole like to keep to themselves in a way. Back to me each week I go to mass and I for one enjoy being able to practise my faith.

I am by no means a do gooder or religious nut but I find comfort in catholicism. A few weeks ago our congregation had to listen to our Parish Priest humble himself and apologise for the wrong doings highlighted in the report about the place Carlow. Now my question is why should he have to apologise for another mans wrong doings. Worse of all was this, our PP gave a very sickening sermon that night which higlights this country's down right ignorance in regards to the church. I will tell you briefly as to what he said, Our PP had been visiting the sick in the regional hospital Limerick.

Just as he was leaving the hospital he happened to pass by a man and woman, our PP said good evening politely only to be replied with by the man " What is that you said you F@cking paedophile". This higlights the utter disrespect for the church and its gods representative's. There is now a whole generation that disrespects the religion and it has been replaced with a love of money/greed. People have turned back on their religion because they believe that they have excuse in "The launderies" , "The Christian Brothers" and because of the way some people have been treated by priests.

The majority of this country now is made up of nothing but hypocrites. It sickens me when you hear some one you know has had a baby for instance and they get their son or daughter baptised. For what especially if the parents dont attend church regularily. Worst of all is the sacrament of communion, it is the single most sickening thing seeing children taking holy communion when they never attend church coupled with the fact of the lengths ppl go to outdue each other money wise. The church in my opinion should not baptise or bestow the sacrament of holy communion on people who dont attend church because simply they have no right to receive these sacraments.

Worst of all and the most sickening part of lapsed catholics is the way they continually back mouth the church when they clearly have no right to do so. Could you imagine if the church closed its doors in the morning and no longer practised any of the sacraments, no more would we have the nouveau riish trying to out due each other at baptisms or communion or weddings. Plus with funerals all you would have is the funeral home and then buried, no prayers or blessings for the dead in question, with the body going nowhere no heaven or hell, no god, no satan, just rotting in a 6 foot hole in the ground.

Yours sincerely a very P!ssed off Catholic

Willem D

Vangelis

Thaedydal wrote:

Catholics and christains should be strong enough in thier faith no matter where they are living and what the laws are.
There are many other religions that manage thier people and thier communties with out the need to make what is taboo to them personally illegal.

There will always be disagreement. I can never get used to seeing brothels or if prostitution becomes legal. Because it doesn't suit my perspective.

And non-Christians feel the same way about laws that have been influenced by i.e the Catholic church.

The conflict seems irresoluable.

Vangelis

WDK, I respect your views and thank you for writing.

I interprete you as if you wish people who are not devoted to the church, other than for weddings and baptisms, to be locked out from the church.
Is this true?

Do you agree that people with no other relationship to the church other than in weddings and other traditions, should not be welcome?

Should they be expulsed from the church?

Do you think that a possible separation of the church and the state could solve this?

Chong

Yes I believe all people whom of which don't attend church regularily should not receive the privileges, I suppose analogy wise you could say if someone plays on football team but only turns up when they feel like it dont deserve to play in the big game. Everybody is always welcome in the church but not when they abuse it purely for their own gains. I dont think I could comment on the last question as I am not sure I am equipped to answer such a question.

patzer117

Slepy wrote:

Personally I've found it to have next to no influence on my life since I left secondary school education (aside from being a minor irritant). The church's influence in the education system is quite far-reaching however, the school I attended would have force-fed us all quite a heavy anti-abortion stance.

The Church still have a major presence all around helping the poor and vulnerable (e.g. Pete McVerry), Refugees, the Homeless etc. If they got up and quit we would have a huge problem on our hands.

Thaedydal wrote:

The modren catholic church needs it imho tend to it's flock, those who atend
mass on a sunday and are willing to follow all the rules as laid down as how to
live your life as a catholic, and draw a clear line as to those who are of that
sort and those who are cultural catholics and never darken the door of the church between the time of thier child's baptism and then the child's communion.

Great idea :rolleyes: you expect the church not to rectruit people? Hmm, that'd be smart of them...

hairyheretic wrote:

Why should any religious institution be allowed to influence secular laws that will affect those who do not subscribe to that religion?

Why shouldn't they? What have they got to loose by doing it? I think that it the church is basically another organisation who can have its say. The business community can have its say - why shouldn't the church? They have a vested interest in what happens, and the outcome will affect them? There is no reason why they shouldn't actively campaign on all the issues concerning them.

Thaedydal wrote:

That seems to be the big fear that if poeple are not christian or religous that they have no morals at all. Morality and religion can be seperate.

Personally I do find it insulting that christians presume that if you are not a christain you are immoral and can not know right from wrong and will therefore rear your children to be monsters.

Eh? I don't know any Christain that thinks either of those things. We presume that a christain society will have more morals than a completely secular one - because many things anti-Christain are legal in a secular society... I think you are putting up straw men beside the Christain faith and attacking the straw men rather than the faith - because what you are saying simply isn't true. Seriously do you know any Christains that think non-Christains are monsters?

psi wrote:

The Irish emphasis on family and community has many parallels with the emphasis placed by the catholic church on such things and can probably be, at least partly attributed to that. On this note, while all the paedophile priests grab the headlines, there are many good decent priests doinggood work in the communities, especially some of the more underprivilidged communities in Ireland.

Agreed. For instance the majority of socail and community law in the EU is taken straight out of church documents. Look it up - it's almost word for word.

As for not welcoming people into the church if they aren't practising catholics, i see this as a cop-out. Much of the reason the Catholic Church is failing in this country is because of mass itself - Priests are uninspiring, i'd go so far to see downright boring. If they can't inspire people and are only dealing with pedantics like attending Church then I think the faith is doomed.


My personal opinion is that the Church should be allowed to influence anything the same way any other organisation can. The Church had done, does and will continue to do great things for Ireland and despite all that is wrong with it, one must hope that it won't give up its struggle for the Christian Ideal of Christendom.

Patzer

Chong

Very good post mate some things very well right there.

hairyheretic

patzer117 wrote:

Why shouldn't they? What have they got to loose by doing it? I think that it the church is basically another organisation who can have its say. The business community can have its say - why shouldn't the church? They have a vested interest in what happens, and the outcome will affect them? There is no reason why they shouldn't actively campaign on all the issues concerning them.

Let me give you an example to see if I can explain things better. Take a look at contraception. Officially, this goes against church policy. For a long time in Ireland it was illegal. Those who were not catholic, and who wished to avail of this, couldn't.

If their own adherents choose not to make use of something, thats fine. No one forces them to. But preventing the choice entirely for everyone is a different matter.

patzer117 wrote:

Eh? I don't know any Christain that thinks either of those things. We presume that a christain society will have more morals than a completely secular one - because many things anti-Christain are legal in a secular society... I think you are putting up straw men beside the Christain faith and attacking the straw men rather than the faith - because what you are saying simply isn't true. Seriously do you know any Christains that think non-Christains are monsters?

Try reading a few other threads in here. I've seen one or two people who frequently identify themselves as christian all but state that non christians have no morals, or refer to non christians with a variety of inulting slurs.

patzer117 wrote:

My personal opinion is that the Church should be allowed to influence anything the same way any other organisation can.

The church can advise or order its own adherents all it wants. It has no authority over those who choose not to follow its teachings, and should not try forcing that authority on them.

Freelancer

WDK wrote:

I am by no means a do gooder or religious nut but I find comfort in catholicism. A few weeks ago our congregation had to listen to our Parish Priest humble himself and apologise for the wrong doings highlighted in the report about the place Carlow. Now my question is why should he have to apologise for another mans wrong doings.

You're a catholic, right? So why er did God sacrifice his only son for our sins

In the cases of the above, the church has hid, protected and lied to protect paedophiles. The church as an institution has failed us. Whether the priest himselves had personally hid or sheltered a paedohphile he owes his parish an apology, and as a representive of the church, he owes a responsibility to the parish on behalf of the church.

Frankly I'd have prefered him and his ilk to have displayed the level of responsibility he's now proclaiming when the church hid paedophiles.

Worse of all was this, our PP gave a very sickening sermon that night which higlights this country's down right ignorance in regards to the church. I will tell you briefly as to what he said, Our PP had been visiting the sick in the regional hospital Limerick.

Just as he was leaving the hospital he happened to pass by a man and woman, our PP said good evening politely only to be replied with by the man " What is that you said you F@cking paedophile". This higlights the utter disrespect for the church and its gods representative's.

And god needs middle men why?

Also I like how this particular middle manager while offering an apology for his breathen's henious crimes, throws in an ancedote about how poorly he's being treated by the general public.

There is now a whole generation that disrespects the religion and it has been replaced with a love of money/greed.

And this sweeping generalisation is based on? Alternatively it's a generation waking up to the hyprocrisy abuse, and violence visited upon them by (to use your own words) "gods representivies". It's a bit difficult to have love and respect for a god who allows men to serve in such capacity and to commit such henious crimes, all the while pompously preach about chasity and virtue.

People have turned back on their religion because they believe that they have excuse in "The launderies" , "The Christian Brothers" and because of the way some people have been treated by priests.

You're trying to tell me that rape, abuse, violence, and paedophilia commited by a class of people who tell us "what god meant to say" isn't an acceptable reason to turn your back on a religion?

The majority of this country now is made up of nothing but hypocrites. It sickens me when you hear some one you know has had a baby for instance and they get their son or daughter baptised. For what especially if the parents dont attend church regularily.

Generally I find that a baptism is held in such a case as an appeasement to parents who still hold religion dear, and in general turn a blind eye to their childrens lapses faith, but still expect the motions to be carried out.

The ideal of a celebration of childs birth and party for friends and family attracts the new parents.

Worst of all is the sacrament of communion, it is the single most sickening thing seeing children taking holy communion when they never attend church coupled with the fact of the lengths ppl go to outdue each other money wise. The church in my opinion should not baptise or bestow the sacrament of holy communion on people who dont attend church because simply they have no right to receive these sacraments.

Now thats nice and all however, considering how many children are forced due to lack of alternatives to attend a catholic school and considering how at least when I was a child communion isn't so much a ritual but part of the ciriculum, with lessons leading up to event, reheresals, what alternative do you offer?

Worst of all and the most sickening part of lapsed catholics is the way they continually back mouth the church when they clearly have no right to do so.

Pray tell why don't they have the right?

Could you imagine if the church closed its doors in the morning and no longer practised any of the sacraments, no more would we have the nouveau riish trying to out due each other at baptisms or communion or weddings.

Leaving aside a clear case of envy on your part, we'd still have wedding since it is a civil ceremony. What is so terrible about the situation you're suggesting? It demostrates a society grateful of it's bounty and instead of sniveling and hiding away their wealth they want to share with their friends and family.

What is so awful about people showering their friends and families with gifts at the momentous moments of their lives? If the "doomsday" scenario you suggest, would occur, we'd still have civil unions, rites of passages into adulthood, and baby showers, the gifts would still come. Your ridicilous assertion that we would be berift of chances to spend money ignores how other cultures celebrate these moments, and the eagerness of capaitalism to help part us from our cash.

Plus with funerals all you would have is the funeral home and then buried, no prayers or blessings for the dead in question, with the body going nowhere no heaven or hell, no god, no satan, just rotting in a 6 foot hole in the ground.

For starts you're out of the loop the catholic faith has gotten rid of satan, secondly what are you suggesting? That god and heaven cannot exist withou the apperatus on earth? That heaven and hell exist only because the church exists?

The suggestion that we need the catholic church because that is the only concievable view of the after life is infantile.

Yours sincerely a very P!ssed off Catholic

Willem D

A very pissed off and extremely clueless would be a more accurate description.