Superb v Passat v Avensis

mmuf200

Hi,

I am looking at three deisel cars all around the 30K mark. Choices as follows:

Base Level Passat - Ac electric windows but other wise very basic. 105 bPH 1.9 deisel engine.

Base Level Avensis ac front electric widows 116 BPH. Very Basic also.

Skoda Superb Comfort model, all electric, cruise control, alloys etc. 100 bph.

Which would be the best deal? I am also considering getting the Superb chipped after purchase to 130 BPH is this safe from an engine point of view? Insurance pov.

Would it be worth pushing out to Sportline Passat at 33K. I think skoda will hold best part of its value.

Also if ye are intrested I will sell my Skoda Octivia 1.9 04 Ambient for any reasonable offer.

Mike

ds20prefecture

Why not an Octavia 2.0TDi DSG?

Big Nelly

I was looking at the Sportline Passat a few weeks ago and I want one....great looking car and will have that extra bit of punch!! drive a 00 Passat at the moment and love it.....get great milage from my 1.9Tdi engine!!!!

bazz26

mmuf200 wrote:

Hi,

I am looking at three deisel cars all around the 30K mark. Choices as follows:

Base Level Passat - Ac electric windows but other wise very basic. 105 bPH 1.9 deisel engine.

Base Level Avensis ac front electric widows 116 BPH. Very Basic also.

Skoda Superb Comfort model, all electric, cruise control, alloys etc. 100 bph.

Which would be the best deal? I am also considering getting the Superb chipped after purchase to 130 BPH is this safe from an engine point of view? Insurance pov.

Would it be worth pushing out to Sportline Passat at 33K. I think skoda will hold best part of its value.

Also if ye are intrested I will sell my Skoda Octivia 1.9 04 Ambient for any reasonable offer.

Mike

The Superb is alot of car for the money but it doesn't seem to hold it's second hand value as well as the Octavia. If you entend to keep the car for along time then maybe it is worth considering one.

Also consider that the Superb uses a stretched version of the previous generation Passat and the interior looks like it was designed in the mid 1990s imo as the old Passat dashboard was used. Still it is a comfortable car with a huge boot and rear legroom.

Did you try and find a used 05 130bhp 6-speed Superb, you should be able to pick one up for around the same price as a new 100bhp version.

mmuf200

Do ot think new Octavia is worth the money. Let alone the 2l one...

mmuf200

bazz26 wrote:

The Superb is alot of car for the money but it doesn't seem to hold it's second hand value as well as the Octavia. If you entend to keep the car for along time then maybe it is worth considering one.

Also consider that the Superb uses a stretched version of the previous generation Passat and the interior looks like it was designed in the mid 1990s imo as the old Passat dashboard was used. Still it is a comfortable car with a huge boot and rear legroom.

Did you try and find a used 05 130bhp 6-speed Superb, you should be able to pick one up for around the same price as a new 100bhp version.

I do not buy second hand cars, trade every two years.. Superb holds it value as good as Octavia. Can trade one after two years for 6K. Same as Octavia.

prospect

Superb

tred

mmuf200 wrote:

Hi,

I am looking at three deisel cars all around the 30K mark. Choices as follows:

Base Level Passat - Ac electric windows but other wise very basic. 105 bPH 1.9 deisel engine.

Base Level Avensis ac front electric widows 116 BPH. Very Basic also.

Skoda Superb Comfort model, all electric, cruise control, alloys etc. 100 bph.

Which would be the best deal? I am also considering getting the Superb chipped after purchase to 130 BPH is this safe from an engine point of view? Insurance pov.

Would it be worth pushing out to Sportline Passat at 33K. I think skoda will hold best part of its value.

Also if ye are intrested I will sell my Skoda Octivia 1.9 04 Ambient for any reasonable offer.

Mike

Would you consider a Mondeo TDCI? I have a 130BHP.....smashing car, have it 1.5 years and its given me nothing but joy...Touch wood..... you would get a great deal on a 05 one in UK....the market is flooded with them as the reps adode them.....a lot of work but can be worth it...

mmuf200

Any more opinions on this matter?

Big Nelly

What about the A3 Diesel? nice car and in about the bracket you are talking about!!

unkel

mmuf200 wrote:

Do ot think new Octavia is worth the money. Let alone the 2l one...

How come? As DS suggests, you can get the superior engine and DSG within your budget. The Passat with same engine and transmission is €8k more expensive. The Octavia is hardly any smaller than the others (save the Superb)

Or is it that you buy brand new every other year? If that's the case sticking with the cheapest Passat might minimise your depreciation

Airblazer

to be honest the mondeo has a great engine..brother has a 04 2l turbo diesel and there's some kick off it..my car is a 05 1.6l petrol primera and even though hp on the mondeo is only 6 more than mine he still accelerates way faster than mine...although the primera engines are tweaked for more fuel ecomony (something with the gear ratios)
the primera's themselves are a great car..not everybody likes the shape but the inside is extremely comfortable plus you get great extras such as gps etc..
Also how about the peugoet 407...gorgeous looking car and AFAIK it's also available in diesel...apparently peugeot's diesels engines are the best according to a mechanic mate of mine

Big Balls

In terms of residuals, the Passat is the winner all day long. The Sportline would be a nicer car over the poverty spec though - up to you whether you want to part with the extra cash.

The Superb is some piece of kit though. You have barely mentioned 1% of the standard spec on them. Again, when it comes to selling it on, you'll lose a lot, no other reason than badge snobbery.

Toyotas make my skin crawl, can't stand their plastic interior, lack of style and the only good thing anyone can ever say about a Toyota is "sure they last forever". Great - so do most modern cars these days !! When was the last time you looked twice at any car made by Toyota??

mmuf200

The superb has better residuals that Passat and avensis. In two years you will be offered 22K for the Superb with 45K on the clock. VW cite holding on to value as their best feature it is only a myth. Go and try and trade a two year old Passat/golf and they will be looking for a lot more that 6K in a trade. 8-10K is figure on avensis.

Do not see 2.0 DSG octavia anywhere does it exist?

bazz26

Well on this evidence maybe not:

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carid=318308

mmuf200

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=318939

03 is now three years old!!!!!

unkel

Well the old model Passat (which is now looking ancient) would depreciate rapidly once the new model was about

Not quite fair to compare with the Superb!

ds20prefecture

mmuf200 wrote:

Do not see 2.0 DSG octavia anywhere does it exist?

Bizarrely only in Combi form, and for €32k

http://www.skoda-auto.com/irl/model/newoctavia/octaviacombi/prices/

unkel

mmuf200 wrote:

Do not see 2.0 DSG octavia anywhere does it exist?

Er, yes why would we mention it otherwise?

Select Skoda and Octavia in the new car section here

bazz26

Big Balls wrote:

In terms of residuals, the Passat is the winner all day long. The Sportline would be a nicer car over the poverty spec though - up to you whether you want to part with the extra cash.

The Superb is some piece of kit though. You have barely mentioned 1% of the standard spec on them. Again, when it comes to selling it on, you'll lose a lot, no other reason than badge snobbery.

Toyotas make my skin crawl, can't stand their plastic interior, lack of style and the only good thing anyone can ever say about a Toyota is "sure they last forever". Great - so do most modern cars these days !! When was the last time you looked twice at any car made by Toyota??

Well none of the three above cars would win a beauty contest would they?

While the quality of plastic in the Passat maybe be better there still is quite alot of it about the cabin especially in basic trim where alot of blanked out buttons are visible. The design is fresher than the other two but your paying a premium for the badge though.

The Superb has alot of fake looking wood too which looks terrible imo and the dash which is straight from the old Passat obviously looks very mid 1990s with edges and hard plastics. But the standard equipment, rear legroom and boot is unbelievable.

To be honest the plastics in the current Avensis are alot better than the old one.

This doesn't mean any of the three cars are bad. lt all comes down to personal choice I guess.

To the OP, test drive all these cars and form your own opinion on which one you find the most suited to your needs.

unkel

You beat me to it, DS

ds20prefecture wrote:

Bizarrely only in Combi form, and for €32k

Not according to carzone, or a large dealer in Dublin

It wouldn't make sense to have it in stationwagon only

Ice_Box

Hold out for the new mondeo

maidhc

Is that seriously the new mondeo??!?

I thought the base model avensis was quite well specced. The higher spec is only 1k extra anyway. People still have hangups about Toyotas being boring from watching too much top gear. The new Avensis is a fine car and fantastic value for money.

The new Octavia TDi is only €24k for the Ambiente? You can get the old shape for close to €20k cash, and maybe better. For goodness sake dont buy a DSG or a 2.0 TDi if you plan on selling in 2/3 years. You will get this much extra on trade in: €0.

Superb is probably a better can to be driven in than to drive.

bazz26

maidhc wrote:

Is that seriously the new mondeo??!?

Sorry to the OP for going off topic.

That is a Ford concept which is showing the way some technology may find its way to the next Mondeo. It does indicate how the next Mondeo will look when it is launced next year. That concept also has gull wing doors which will not obviously be carried over to the family saloon.

Another indication of the look of the next Mondeo is the front of the new Galaxy MPV which is supposed to have the new Ford corporate look.

dingding

How about the Volvo S40 Diesel:)

Big Balls

mmuf200 wrote:

The superb has better residuals that Passat and avensis. In two years you will be offered 22K for the Superb with 45K on the clock. Go and try and trade a two year old Passat/golf and they will be looking for a lot more that 6K in a trade.

I have traded in a Golf and you're talking rubbish

maidhc

Resale of an Avensis D4D will be first class.

We traded in a 99 Avensis TD before against a new one and it never went on the forecourt. Dealer had a waiting list for them from Taxi drivers!! It is a shame to sell a Toyota after 2 years really, because they DO live far longer than any french car and I suspect longer than most german ones too (Longer than modern mercs anyway, although the jury is out on VW and BMW!). Toyota have better customer service than most too (i.e. they even replaced a light on my mothers car she that cracked by reversing into a wall).

There will be a facelifted avensis out by Autumn next year.

mmuf200

How much are you trading a two year old golf for????

Big Balls

I made a loss of €3,000 on one over 15 months - even then it was only 3K as it was a new car when I bought it.

maidhc

Big Balls wrote:

I made a loss of €3,000 on one over 15 months - even then it was only 3K as it was a new car when I bought it.

Is it the new shape? Normally the first of the new shape cars hold their value really well until they start coming on the market after 24-36 months. This happened with the mk1 Mondeo where they were like gold dust until about late 95 when everything went horribly wrong.

My grandfather traded in one of the very first Audi A4 TDIs (1995 model) in 97 against a new one for about 3k. It cost him twice that to go from the 97 to a 99 model.

The Golfs are a very solid buy anyway, they always have held their value extremely well.

Big Balls

Nope old model.. was a GTI.

None of the cars we are all talking about are rock solid in terms of residuals but saying the Skoda is the best when it comes to reale out of the list above is madness.

ds20prefecture

unkel wrote:

You beat me to it, DS

Not according to carzone, or a large dealer in Dublin

It wouldn't make sense to have it in stationwagon only

I agree, but I am going by the Skoda.ie web site. The price list does not show the 2.0TDi DSG in saloon form, but it does on the Combi. It definitely used to show in the saloon page so I would say it has been recently withdrawn and they haven't updated the Combi, or someone screwed up.

To my eyes at least, the estate is a more handsome car.

Dcully

A few weeks ago i was in the same position almost.
I was trading in a 99 Avensis.
First tip ,dont waste your money on a brand new car,i made that mistake before but never again.
Having test driven every model in this class i settled for a 03 Passat 1.9 TDI Comfortline with 40,000 on clock.
Electric everything,6 disc CD changer,climate control,aircon etc.
Stunning car in every way,by far the best diesel performer out there along with A4 [same engine],
The car i bought even has the lovely smell of a new car
Avensis was very nice but not as powerfull as the VW.
Superb was like a Passat but somewhat a wee bit noisier even though it was an 05.
At the end of the day it is a Skoda and residuals are poor compared to both VW and Toyota.
In the end the performance along with build of the Passat and its residuals won the day,i never imagined just how quick these TDIs really are,the torque is simply outstanding and should almost be classed as performance machines.
Go for the Passat i say but not a brand new one.
If you were after a petrol car id be a bit more tempted by the Avensis as for diesels imo you cant beat VW/Audi.
My old Avensis was a brilliant car,i all of the 4 years i had it not once did i give hassle,a rear light bulb is all

prospect

Dcully wrote:

Stunning car in every way,by far the best diesel performer out there along with A4 [same engine]

You obviously didn't try the 156 JTD!

maidhc

Dcully wrote:

Stunning car in every way,by far the best diesel performer out there along with A4 [same engine],

The Toytota 2.0 D4D is a better engine than the 1.9 TDI, although driving them there isnt a whole lot in it. Toyota is FAR quieter, if that concerns you. I have only read reviews of the 2.0TDI, and they haven't been glowing.

All my cars to date have been hand me downs, bought new by my parents. All have been reliable, which I put to they always being serviced properly. Present car is getting old now, but I would buy a new one before I'd go down the s/h road. It is nice to know a car from the day it is bought especially if you are going to hold onto it.

Dcully

Nope havent driven the 156 JTD,i stand corrected
I found the D4D down on power tbh and about same volume as TDI.
Being a Toyota im sure it a class engine but to me it felt slower.

knifey_spoonie

I can tell you for a fact the new passats are giving trouble.VW build quality is not what it used to be.

Out of all i would go for the Skoda.Its got the best spec,But it wont holds its value as well as the rest.

Big Balls

knife_fighter wrote:

VW build quality is not what it used to be.

I have to laugh when I hear people say this from time to time. The build quality is just as good as it always was. The doors still thud when you close them, the switches still sturdy, my GTI feels more planted on the road than any other car I've owned...I can't find one bad thing to say about it. The machanical side of things might not be as bullet proof as the MKI and II but please, give up on the build quality line will ya!!

I'd love to see these "bad reports" about the 2.0TDI too. It's a far more driveable engine compared to the 1.9 - the only thing it lost over the 1.9 was the brilliant economy.

maidhc

Big Balls wrote:

I have to laugh when I hear people say this from time to time. The build quality is just as good as it always was. The doors still thud when you close them, the switches still sturdy, my GTI feels more planted on the road than any other car I've owned...I can't find one bad thing to say about it. The machanical side of things might not be as bullet proof as the MKI and II but please, give up on the build quality line will ya!!

I'd love to see these "bad reports" about the 2.0TDI too. It's a far more driveable engine compared to the 1.9 - the only thing it lost over the 1.9 was the brilliant economy.

There is a difference between perceived quality and actual build quality. Note the old Corollas as a case in point: Crappy cheap plastics, tinny doors etc, but lasted for 300k. Bullet proof mechanicals are where build quality is at. Id happily sacrafice a clunking door for not having to replace a waterpump.

The first of the last gen Passats were a disaster with electrical problems, although they got that sorted after a short while. I havent heard anything bad about more recent ones. I have seen about 10 A4s in the extended family (maybe do 500k between them) and none have given an ouce of bother, bar one immobiliser (Unlike the Renaults... and Mercs)

On topic, I would say the Toyota is probably a better built car than either the VW brands, but I'm saying this as someone who intends to buy an Octavia in the new year.

2.0 TDI is undoubtedly faster. But more expensive, wont hold its value as well (just yet anyway, and certainly not in a plain jane car), will cost more to tax and more to run. The 1.9 TDI is a fine engine, I doubt the extra costs of the 2.0 are justified.

The reports say the 2.0 is a bit slow at lower speeds, and slightly brutal once it gets going. But most reports are pure bull anyway, so I wont stand over that comment.

Big Balls

I covered 20,000 miles in a 2.0TDI and I can't pick out one moment where it lacked over the 1.9. Performance wise in terms of speed, they are probably very close.

I've covered about 37,000 miles in 3 different VAG cars and nothing mechanical to report.

A dodgy seat frame which was replaced is the only problem I had with a new Audi.

knifey_spoonie

Big Balls wrote:

I have to laugh when I hear people say this from time to time. The build quality is just as good as it always was. The doors still thud when you close them, the switches still sturdy, my GTI feels more planted on the road than any other car I've owned...I can't find one bad thing to say about it. The machanical side of things might not be as bullet proof as the MKI and II but please, give up on the build quality line will ya!!

I'd love to see these "bad reports" about the 2.0TDI too. It's a far more driveable engine compared to the 1.9 - the only thing it lost over the 1.9 was the brilliant economy.

Maybe you should have a look at the 2005 top gear car survey where VW came 21 out of 36 Skoda came 2ND.
Now can you please explain how Skoda is higher that VW.If you consider skoda uses VWs last generation parts and yet skoda comes higher than VW.+ if skoda comes higher with old parts and VW comes lower with the newer parts.Now put on your little thinking cap.Hmm, That alone is proof that VWs build quality is sliping.

And the idea that VW are unreliable has not just come from me but VW salesmen.

So wait a while till your car starts to give problems

Big Balls

I have waited.. I've been driving VAG cars the last 3 years and they're not really any worse than the next car :rolleyes:

The reason those surveys reveal bizarre stuff like that is because if you buy a Skoda (for example) and something goes wrong.. you almost expect it. Dealer fixes if for you, you're happy.

If you buy a VW/Merc (Merc also scored poorly in the survey you mention) you don't expect stuff to go wrong so if it does you get annoyed about it more than with a stereotypically unreliable brand.

maidhc

knife_fighter wrote:

If you consider skoda uses VWs last generation parts and yet skoda comes higher than VW.+ if skoda comes higher with old parts and VW comes lower with the newer parts.

Skoda use the same generation of parts. The New Octavia is based on the same platform as the present golf and uses identical engines. This has always been the case, except perhaps for the Felicia.

I'm not sure about the argument that someone who buys a skoda expects it to break. I know a lot of people with Skodas, and they would be damn pissed if it broke, but they dont. I know many merc people that have got unbelievable grief...problems from the boot opening when the brakes are pressed... to the clutch pedal assembly FALLING OFF (an 02 E-Class).

I think the Top Gear survey was credible... Jap cars at the top, VAG (overall...) reasonably good, and french and italian cars at the very bottom. Maybe Skoda just take a little more pride in their cars than VW?

Dcully

That survey is not a reliability survey.
It is infact what drivers had to say when asked,did your car live up to what you expected?
Everyone expects different things so imo people wrongly see it as a reliability survey.

maidhc

No it isnt a reliability survey, and they dont go into much detail on their methodology apart from allocating the scores on the following basis:

Build quality (22%)
Craftsmanship (22%)
Driving experience (19%)
Ownership costs (17%)
Customer care (20%)

Indeed Merc or VW owners may be more discerning than their Skoda counterparts, but this does not explain Lexus being rated so much higher the Mercedes, or French cars being rated so much lower than Toyota.

Ultimately the least anyone expects of a car is that it fulfills its purpose, and most people will be reasonably happy if the car is dependable, and thriiled if it dependable and *nice* to own. I dont think owners of broken down cars ever make the most delighted bunch, unless the car is really really special.

unkel

Dcully wrote:

That survey is not a reliability survey.

Indeed it isn't

Dcully wrote:

It is infact what drivers had to say when asked,did your car live up to what you expected?

Right on. All about meeting or exceeding expectations. A Skoda Octavia buyer knows he got a family size car with a great boot at an amazing price. Most don't have any major problems with them so, yes, their expectations are exceeded and the Octavia gets the best family car award for five years in a row

maidhc wrote:

this does not explain Lexus being rated so much higher the Mercedes

I believe it does. A Lexus buyer is not that interested in how good a drivers car his Lexus is. He obviously has no interest in cars in general and he might not even know he is buying a Toyota. His main interest is to get a very comfortable car that he thinks will give him the same status as a BMW or Merc. The Lexus also has a great sound system and is built to the utmost reliability so it will never break down. There you have it, another extremely satisfied owner pushing the Lexus up to the top of the list

A Merc owner, however, might have different perceptions, demands and expectations

AMurphy

unkel wrote:

Indeed it isn't


I believe it does. A Lexus buyer is not that interested in how good a drivers car his Lexus is. He obviously has no interest in cars in general and he might not even know he is buying a Toyota. .....

I think only the 300 is an upgraded Toyota, the others are more unique.

maidhc

unkel wrote:

I believe it does. A Lexus buyer is not that interested in how good a drivers car his Lexus is. He obviously has no interest in cars in general and he might not even know he is buying a Toyota.

Thats a terrible exaggeration! You can just as easily say all merc owners are overweight and balding and the only reason they dont like their cars is that they are cranky in general! .. etc etc etc

Or else you could recognise that Mercedes has had major quality control issues beginning with the demise of the 190 and coming to a head with the Chrysler merger. Personally I adore Mercs, and bought a mercedes keyring when I was eight for "my car", but right now they do have problems.

Anyhow, back on topic, the Avensis scored 23(i think), and the Skoda Superb & Octavia (4 & 5)(i think). Not sure about the Passat, but I would happily buy one anyway, I have yet to hear any really bad stories, apart from vague VW isnt what is was carry on.

bazz26

unkel wrote:

I believe it does. A Lexus buyer is not that interested in how good a drivers car his Lexus is. He obviously has no interest in cars in general and he might not even know he is buying a Toyota.

Lets be fair here, give Toyota and Lexus the respect they have earned. Not every Toyota/Lexus owner inspires to own a BMW or Merc.

As for Lexus owners not having an interest in cars, not true, maybe they are tired of the so called established Germans charging extra for something that is simply not worth it.

unkel wrote:

His main interest is to get a very comfortable car that he thinks will give him the same status as a BMW or Merc. The Lexus also has a great sound system and is built to the utmost reliability so it will never break down. There you have it, another extremely satisfied owner pushing the Lexus up to the top of the list

A Merc owner, however, might have different perceptions, demands and expectations

As for Lexus owners thinking they may have the same status as BMW/Mercs well the same thing could also be said about BWM/Merc owners. They may only think they are doing a bit better than the rest of us mear mortals or that they may know a bit more about cars. It's all about perception I guess.

Lexus has established alot considering it is only around about 15 years and when the original LS400 was lauched MB had to delay the lauch of the S-Class at the time as the LS400 was a real threat to its dominance. Yes the LS400 may not be great to look at but then again neither was the 7 Series or S Class and most owners were driven around in them so would not care how the car drives.

As for Lexus owners not realising they are driving a Toyota, the same logic could also be applied to Audi being overpriced Skodas or Mercs being built from Chrysler bits and pieces. Its all down to marketing and egos.

unkel

maidhc wrote:

Thats a terrible exaggeration!

A bit exaggerated and generalised, but terrible?

bazz26 wrote:

Lets be fair here, give Toyota and Lexus the respect they have earned

I do respect Toyota. They build very reliable cars and they will soon be the biggest car manufacturer in the world. Indeed it is no small feat to go from mass-manufacturing low-end common-denominator small and medium size cars to go upmarket and be more successful than anybody expected they would be

The Lexus branded cars have taken market share from the incumbents in the luxury / prestige segments, but mainly in the US and to a smaller extent in the UK and Ireland. Much less so in the rest of the old EU. Anybody any theories why?

BTW they may have gotten away with the marketing trick of the "Lexus" badge thingy over here but in Japan they are still sold as what they are: Toyotas

bazz26 wrote:

Not every Toyota/Lexus owner inspires to own a BMW or Merc

Indeed I did describe a typical Lexus owner

bazz26 wrote:

As for Lexus owners not having an interest in cars, not true, maybe they are tired of the so called established Germans charging extra for something that is simply not worth it

Extra? Lexus prices are roughly on a par with the cars Toyota strives them to compete with

bazz26 wrote:

most owners were driven around in them so would not care how the car drives

I'd say the majority of owners drive these cars themselves. There are probably very few cars out there that are mainly chauffeur driven, Maybach and Rolls-Royce spring to mind. In the past when Bentley and Rolls-Royce had near-identical cars on the market, the cliche was that if you drove yourself, you bought a Bentley

bazz26

Agree with some of your points there Unkel but not all.

As you said Lexus prices are almost on a par these days with their competitors so most owners would then have a choice of either buying a Lexus, BMW or Merc, etc so it would come down to personal choice rather than a compromise.

My cousin had an IS200 and traded up for a 320i about a year ago, he is happy with his 3 Series, from a driver's perspective yes the BMW is more involving than the IS200 was but he feels that the overall package (standard kit, value for money, after sales service, etc) of the 3 Series falls short of the Lexus. This is where I think Lexus have really hurt the more established makes.

And as for Lexus being rebadged Toyotas well yes to an extent but it is actually the otherway round, in Japan Lexus built cars are rebadged as Toyotas. Even the Japanese State cars are all big square Toyota Crowns.

This is now changing though and since earlier this year any new Lexus models lauched carry the Lexus badge on them in their home market.