Driving on the right

Hagar

Should Ireland be driving on the right just like most of the world?




OK it would be hard to changeover but AFAIK Sweden did it in the 3/9/1967 so it is possible.

We have gone metric now with our speed limits so we could just drive the same cars that most of our fellow Europeans are driving without modifiction. This must make cars cheaper at the very least. Insurance, after the initial spate of claims, should get cheaper as a result.

Road signs and traffic lights would all have to be changed but given the pathetic signage in Ireland would that be such a bad thing.

It would also force a re-education of our driving population IMO another good point in its favour.

Seth Brundle

Hagar wrote:

Should Ireland be driving on the right just like most of the world?

Why can't the rest of the world copy us?

Anyhow, people here cannot drive. We cannot manage to get those unqualified to drive examined. How would you propose to convert everyone to manage driving on the wrong side of the road?

Hagar wrote:

This must make cars cheaper at the very least.

Our cars are very cheap. it is all the taxes that the govt. put on the cheap cars that make them very expensive.

Hagar wrote:

Insurance, after the initial spate of claims, should get cheaper as a result.

Given that you are assuming there will be many incidents on the road, how many fatalities are you expecting?
Anyhow, just because we would be driving on the other side of the road, does not mean we become safer drivers resulting in cheaper insurance.

WizZard

Yes, I think we should. But I'm not going to hold my breath for it to happen...

unkel

Hagar wrote:

Should Ireland be driving on the right just like most of the world?

Yes! We are no longer a British colony

Big Nelly

Why cant we just drive in the middle???? saves the whole bother of changing over!!

Angels

We'd be like the rest of the world then who drive on the right handside, but isn't that what makes us unique in Ireland driving on the left side!!

HelterSkelter

Why do Irish people always feel the need to change to be the same as the rest of the world? What's wrong with driving on the left? Leave it as it is I say.

damo605

Driving on the right should be introduced on a gradual basis here - Start off by just implementing it for Artics and heavy lorries for the first few months......
:v:

Alun

Actually, depending on how you want to look at it, that map is a little misleading. Take a look at http://www.brianlucas.ca/roadside/ (which makes interesting reading, highly recommended!), where you will discover that if you work it out by population, a good 1/3 of the world's population (potentially) drives on the left. Going on total km's of roads, it's still a surprising 27.6%. Of course if you do it on car ownership, the figures will be very different, but all we need is for, say, India to become the next China and all that could change dramatically.

alias no.9

Hagar wrote:

Should Ireland be driving on the right just like most of the world?
OK it would be hard to changeover but AFAIK Sweden did it in the 3/9/1967 so it is possible.

Car ownership was less widespread in sweeden in 1967 than it is in ireland in 2005 and the majority of cars sold there were LHD at the time.

Hagar wrote:

We have gone metric now with our speed limits so we could just drive the same cars that most of our fellow Europeans are driving without modifiction. This must make cars cheaper at the very least. Insurance, after the initial spate of claims, should get cheaper as a result.

There is an EU directive to harmonise pre tax car prices across the EU. This will result in an increase in pre tax prices here as our punative taxation reigime has forced car companies to sell at lower pre tax prices here than in most other european countries in order to stimulate demand. It's taxes that keep prices high.

As for insurance, the vast majority of cars on irish roads are rhd. Should we change over, they would still be rhd. That positions the vast majority of drivers on the wrong side of their car for safe driving, getting used to driving on the other side of the road and leaves the privilaged few with new cars getting used to driving on the other side of the road. This is a recepie for absolute mayhem. A single death as a result of this would be too much and is enough to justify not changing.

Hagar wrote:

Road signs and traffic lights would all have to be changed but given the pathetic signage in Ireland would that be such a bad thing.

Many roads would have to be realigned, one-way systems be completely redesigned, motorway junctions be redesigned.

Hagar wrote:

It would also force a re-education of our driving population IMO another good point in its favour.

How about driver education, reeducation and periodic retesting as a wortwhile alternative to this utterly pointless exercise. Remember we live on an island. We have no land frontier with a country who drives on the right. How would border crossings with norn iron be handled if they did not change at the same time?

In summary, you have not thought this through at all have you? Any positives you suggest have nothing to do with the side of the road we drive on and as such are issues that can be satisfactorally dealt with without changing.

WizZard

Actually they're very good points alias no.9

Driver (re)education would be great, but that doesn't look like it's happening either...

the_syco

WizZard wrote:

Driver (re)education would be great, but that doesn't look like it's happening either...

Eh, re-education means it has already happened. Sure about that?

alias no.9

the_syco wrote:

Eh, re-education means it has already happened. Sure about that?

No it doesn't.

seamus

alias no.9 wrote:

Many roads would have to be realigned, one-way systems be completely redesigned, motorway junctions be redesigned.

Not really. Any of the normal slip-road junctions would work fine in reverse (think about it), though every single road marking on all of our millions of km of road would need to be redone. Nightmare.

If anything, I think such a change would easily drive car prices upwards. Since Ireland and the UK are essentially seen as a single market by many manufacturers in many industries, it makes sense to harmonise our standards. The UK is a much bigger market than we are, if we were to adopt different standards, it means one version must be shipped to the UK, and another to Ireland instead of just shipping a handful extra of the same unit to the UK for distribution to Ireland.

It wouldn't be an issue if we weren't an island.

alias no.9

seamus wrote:

Not really. Any of the normal slip-road junctions would work fine in reverse (think about it)

Not necessarily, there are subtle differences on some. On ramps tend to be single lanes as there is rarely traffic backed up onto them unless the whole motorway is backed up and since the traffic going on is only going one place. Off ramps are sometimes multiple lanes to increase capacity for backed up traffic preventing it backing down onto the motorway as much as possible and to distribute it to surrounding roads since the traffic coming off is often going in mulitple directions. The interface with roundabouts at the top of a ramp is different for on ramps which collect traffic from the left hand side of multi lane roundabouts than for off ramps which distrubute traffic across all lanes of multi lane roundabouts.

Think about it.

unkel

I can't see it happening soon, costs high, benefits low

alias no.9 wrote:

A single death as a result of this would be too much and is enough to justify not changing

People (tourists, remigrants) die here every year because they are driving on the right side. These deaths would not occur if we all drove on the right. A cynic will now post that these deaths would be replaced by British driving on the left on Irish roads once we changed over...

WizZard

the_syco wrote:

Eh, re-education means it has already happened. Sure about that?

That's why the re was in brackets! :rolleyes:

Bogger77

plus we have the small problem of the nice long border between us and the North. Do you suggest specially built flyovers at the border crossings to put people on the correct side of the road?

Saruman

Whats the point? There is no reason to change over.. and anyone thinking its just a matter of painting the roads and giving us the right cars are not thinking it through.


If for instance i was drving from Tallaght to Liffey valley using the M50 there would be NO WAY for me to get there driving the opposite way. It would need changes on almost every junction we have.
You cant come off, gor around the roundabout heading towards lucan as there is no where to get into it. The slip road down is almost at a 180 degree angle so major changes would be needed.

Leave it be.... besides... the map aside a LARGE portion of the population of the world drive like us... India alone has over 1 billion people, its catching up with china!!

alias no.9

unkel wrote:

People (tourists, remigrants) die here every year because they are driving on the right side. These deaths would not occur if we all drove on the right. A cynic will now post that these deaths would be replaced by British driving on the left on Irish roads once we changed over...

Once again we're talking about a spurious issue with regard to the side of the road we drive on. There are preventative measures that can be taken to educate tourists about our rules of the road without putting a large proportion of our road users at risk.

Saruman

like the warning signs you see all over the roads reminding you to drive on the left... Just a shame some idiot thought it a good idea to put them all over the midlands where there are no airports, ferry ports etc so no where for a tourist to just appear in a car and see the sign to remind them.. I have never noticed them near airports or ferry ports though

Hagar

Most land border of this type are handled simply. You enter a customs control area ( it may be very informal - no checks etc ) driving on your normal side of the road and you exit on the appropriate side. This is handled in some countries by having a traffic light contra flow system which facilitates the crossover. On crossings where there is heavy volume a fly-over or underpass is used.

If the fact that we have a land border with N.Ireland is a reason not to harmonise with Europe why did we go metric? Leaving aside the bad rep N.I. drivers have in the South, is there not a possibility that there could be confusion between mph and kph?

Do not delude yourself that we get the same cars as the UK. They do not just keep most of them and send us a few. Ireland gets totally different models, generally of a lower spec. They are specially assembled for the Irish market.

Yes the high price of cars in Ireland is due to high taxation but that cannot be allowed continue forever. Eventually Ireland will have to come in line with the other EU States tax-wise whether the Govt likes it or not.

Anyone who took the trouble to do any research on the topic would have known the Sweden started using LHD cars years in advance of the changeover. In this way drivers did actually change over to driving on the right by degrees. It's called "forward planning" a term alien to the psyche of the Irish Govt.

There is no reason to suppose that there would be widespread mayhem and a massive increase in accidents on the roads. If anyone has statistics to show that this happened in Sweden I would be very interested to see them.

HelterSkelter

Hagar wrote:

Insurance, after the initial spate of claims, should get cheaper as a result.

I don't see any reason why insurance would be cheaper, can you explain this?

Hagar wrote:

Road signs and traffic lights would all have to be changed but given the pathetic signage in Ireland would that be such a bad thing.

It would also force a re-education of our driving population IMO another good point in its favour.

Have you any idea how much this would cost? You would have to change every single road sign, traffic light, road marking, re-design junctions & one way streets. And for what benefit? The reasons you gave are just not worth the cost and expense of this exercise.

Hagar, if you are seriously think this should be implemented you'll have to come up with some better arguments than you have so far.

Hagar

If the decision to do this was made today it would take a number of years to implement. I believe that at that point VRT and prices in general will have been harmonised throughout the EU. This will effect car prices and subsequentially car insurance. We also will be able to take out insurance with companies outside Ireland who currently don't deal with Irish motorists. Cost of parts should fall more in line with other EU countries as they will all be for LHD cars. Let's face it RHD is in a minority and has to loose out regards economy of scale. It would also loosen the stranglehold that exists as currently we must source all parts via the UK. Monopolies breed profiteering.

Even if we never change there is a fortune that must be spent to bring our road signs and markings up to EU standards. I am proposing that before we make this necesscary expenditure that we consider all options including driving on the right.

I'm not pretending I have all the answers, hell I don't even know all the questions. I'm just putting forward a topic for discussion.

Gandhi

Hagar wrote:

There is no reason to suppose that there would be widespread mayhem and a massive increase in accidents on the roads. If anyone has statistics to show that this happened in Sweden I would be very interested to see them.

A little off-topic, but I have heard on several occasions that accidents actually dropped by around 10-15% after the changeover, and gradually rose back to their previous values. The conclusion reached was that people were forced to concentrate more when driving in an unfamiliar manner.

The phenomenon is mentioned here in brief:
http://www.maa.nsw.gov.au/getfile.aspx?Type=document&ID=772&ObjectType=3&ObjectID=281

I have seen it mentioned in numerous other places, so anyone who wants could track down more detailed data on it.

mike65

unkel wrote:

Yes! We are no longer a British colony

Laughing Out Loud Here!

Mike.

johnnyrotten

If its not broken, don't fix it . Why should we change?

Bogger77

They are placed at locations where people have been killed by tourists driving on the wrong side.
There are notices, well at least there were, in Rosslare, Shannon area, West Clare and Mayo

Bogger77

Hagar wrote:

Most land border of this type are handled simply. You enter a customs control area ( it may be very informal - no checks etc ) driving on your normal side of the road and you exit on the appropriate side. This is handled in some countries by having a traffic light contra flow system which facilitates the crossover. On crossings where there is heavy volume a fly-over or underpass is used.

If the fact that we have a land border with N.Ireland is a reason not to harmonise with Europe why did we go metric? Leaving aside the bad rep N.I. drivers have in the South, is there not a possibility that there could be confusion between mph and kph?

there's a massive leap between the switch to Km from MPH as the limits did not in any great sense change, there's a massive leap to saying that's the same as switching sides we drive on.

Name a boundary between the LHD and RHD country that has the sheer volume of traffic, and the number of people crossing back and forth each day (commuters). Looking at your map, India has large land borders with RHD countries, but it's borders with all neighbours are tightly controlled, ie no free movement.
Have you travelled through such a zone?

How would you suggest we'd deal with the road from Cavan to Clones (N54/A3), which as sections in each country, some no more than a mile long, in some cases the borders is the white line on the road. So common sense approach would be to make the entire section LHD or RHD, so what country is going to give up it's territory to the other, even symbolically.

Hagar wrote:

Anyone who took the trouble to do any research on the topic would have known the Sweden started using LHD cars years in advance of the changeover. In this way drivers did actually change over to driving on the right by degrees. It's called "forward planning" a term alien to the psyche of the Irish Govt.

There is no reason to suppose that there would be widespread mayhem and a massive increase in accidents on the roads. If anyone has statistics to show that this happened in Sweden I would be very interested to see them.

This I believe is totally inaccurate, from what I recall of several tv documentaries, Sweden was surround by LHD countries, and had a lot of LHD cars in the country, as that’s what was imported. New BMW's from Germany, LHD rather than wait from an inferior UK model car, etc. This was leading to a massive percentage of the annual death toll. When the Swedes decided to switch, more than 50% of the cars in the country were already LHD. Yes, there was reduction of crashes, because there were more LHD cars than RHD cars, and RHD cars were now more likely to be involved in crashes.

peasant

I drive both LHD and RHD vehicles regularly in Ireland (I own one of each) and actually it is not as hard / difficult / dangerous driving on the "wrong" side of the vehicle as you might think. Overtaking can be a bit iffy ...but it is just a matter of getting used to.

But I don't see the point in changing. The money that would have to be spent on re-signing and re-aligning all the roads would just be punitive and definitely gobble up all and any (if any) financial advantages that driving on the right might bring ...after all it would be tax payer's (i.e. your and my) money that would pay for it ..I wouldn't even like to think about the rises in fuel tax, motor tax, VRT (or another replacement tax), road tolls, etc that would be implemented to pay for it all.

Plus the used car market would collapse totally ...the value of any RHD car would be NIL over night.

nope ...not a good idea

alias no.9

Hagar wrote:

If the decision to do this was made today it would take a number of years to implement. I believe that at that point VRT and prices in general will have been harmonised throughout the EU.

There is already a directive in place to harmonise pre tax car prices across the EU. This does not apply to taxes. Taxes are the problem, thats why the retail cost of new cars here is one of the highest in europe.

Hagar wrote:

This will effect car prices and subsequentially car insurance. We also will be able to take out insurance with companies outside Ireland who currently don't deal with Irish motorists.

Having LHD cars will not affect their cost new as the pre tax price will be the same across europe whether LHD or RHD so how do you figure that it will reduce the cost of the car and you're in dreamland if you think it will reduce the cost of insurance. There's no reason why insurance companies from outside of ireland who chose not to operate here would change their minds based on us deciding to switch.

Hagar wrote:

Cost of parts should fall more in line with other EU countries as they will all be for LHD cars. Let's face it RHD is in a minority and has to loose out regards economy of scale. It would also loosen the stranglehold that exists as currently we must source all parts via the UK. Monopolies breed profiteering.

Do you have any idea what level of damage will have been done to a car by the time the cost of using specific RHD parts compared to the costs of parts common to both RHD and LHD becomes a driving force of high repair costs? In most cases the car would already be a write off. There is no reason why parts cannot be ordered from other countries. Why are parts sourced from the UK? Despite the death of the british car industry, toyota, nissan, ford, peugeot and honda all manufacture there and for virtually all manufacturers, the next step up their supply chain is the UK, it's to do with market volumes and our proximity to the UK rather than RHD or LHD, there is no language barrier, the cost of delivery is less and delivery times are shorter. It would not change if we switched to LHD. Again this is a spurious reason to switch to LHD.

Hagar wrote:

I'm not pretending I have all the answers, hell I don't even know all the questions. I'm just putting forward a topic for discussion.

You don't have any answers, just a bunch of spurious reasons that don't actually have anything to do with what side of the road we drive on. As for discussion, I've written at length on this thread and you've yet to respond to any of my points.

Hagar

alias no9 wrote:

As for discussion, I've written at length on this thread and you've yet to respond to any of my points.

There is a difference between avoiding a question and not having an answer for the question.

Do you know what? Alias No9 is right.I don't have any answers.

But now I've heard other people's opinions and I know more about the topic than when I started.
Isn't that that purpose of a discussion forum?
Thanks for all the informed information. The vitriol I can get at home.

alias no.9

Hagar wrote:

Most land border of this type are handled simply. You enter a customs control area ( it may be very informal - no checks etc ) driving on your normal side of the road and you exit on the appropriate side. This is handled in some countries by having a traffic light contra flow system which facilitates the crossover. On crossings where there is heavy volume a fly-over or underpass is used.

How many have unrestricted borders where the same road can criss cross the border several times over a short distance?

Hagar wrote:

If the fact that we have a land border with N.Ireland is a reason not to harmonise with Europe why did we go metric? Leaving aside the bad rep N.I. drivers have in the South, is there not a possibility that there could be confusion between mph and kph?

MPH and KPH are different measurements of the same parameter, they are not mutually exclusive. It is not possible to drive on the right and drive on the left at the same time.

Hagar wrote:

Do not delude yourself that we get the same cars as the UK. They do not just keep most of them and send us a few. Ireland gets totally different models, generally of a lower spec. They are specially assembled for the Irish market.

Small volume models usually come in in the same spec as UK models, large volume models sometimes come in specifically tailored to Ireland but often the same spec levels are available but higher volumes of lower spec models sell here compared to the UK. Do not delude yourself that the shipping routes will change if we were to get LHD cars.

Hagar wrote:

Yes the high price of cars in Ireland is due to high taxation but that cannot be allowed continue forever. Eventually Ireland will have to come in line with the other EU States tax-wise whether the Govt likes it or not.

There is no provision for tax harmonisation across europe, in fact it is being widely resisted. A challenge may be made to the legality of VRT with respect to the free movement of goods within the EU, but that's a different story.

Hagar wrote:

Anyone who took the trouble to do any research on the topic would have known the Sweden started using LHD cars years in advance of the changeover. In this way drivers did actually change over to driving on the right by degrees. It's called "forward planning" a term alien to the psyche of the Irish Govt.

If you took the trouble to research the Sweedish changeover yourself, you'd find it was driven by the fact that the majority of cars there were LHD in the first palce.

Hagar wrote:

There is no reason to suppose that there would be widespread mayhem and a massive increase in accidents on the roads. If anyone has statistics to show that this happened in Sweden I would be very interested to see them.

There is no reason to switch without a single positive benefit. Without any accidents, the costs and the logistical difficulties make this a non runner. There is however every reason to suppose therewould be widespread mayhem and a massive increase in accidents on the roads when you consider over a million drivers with restricted visibility due to being on the wrong side of the car.

Hagar

Hang on, I have a drum and a soapbox here somewhere.

Climb up and beat it.:mad:

Bogger77

Hagar wrote:

Hang on, I have a drum and a soapbox here somewhere.

Climb up and beat it.:mad:

Dont ask questions inviting debate and then get all sulky cos no one agree's with your opinion.

alias no.9

Hagar wrote:

Hang on, I have a drum and a soapbox here somewhere.

Climb up and beat it.:mad:

Have I drifted off topic? Have I failed to explain my reasoning? Have I personally attacked you?

I don't think I've done any of these things, just engaged in the discussion. I cant see what I've done to anger you except disagree with pretty much everything you've said but boards would be a boring place if all it involved was a bunch of people telling each other how great their ideas were.

Hagar

I am definitely not sulking over this. Have a look back a couple of posts where I said I had found other people's opinions well informed and I acknowledged the contribution they had made.

Nobody agreed with the proposition, that's fine, I learned something.

What is the purpose of the continued browbeating after the post I've mentioned?

That's all I'm objecting to, not the kicking I got, but the needless continued kicking.:mad:

mike65

So then, we're all more enlightened now. Lovely.

Mike.

Gatster

Yes! We are no longer a British colony

Japan never was, but they just can't stop themselves. For such an Westernised/Amercanised society, why do they drive on the same side as us (or am I being thick).

alias no.9

Hagar wrote:

That's all I'm objecting to, not the kicking I got, but the needless continued kicking.:mad:

Appologies if it seemed like that, it was never intended to. I just replied to the posts as I read them.

mike65

Gatster wrote:

Japan never was, but they just can't stop themselves. For such an Westernised/Amercanised society, why do they drive on the same side as us (or am I being thick).

The Japanese drive on the left for the same reason the British do, in ye olde days when on horseback (bearing in mind most ppl are right handed) it was important to have control of the horse with the left hand and freedom to draw your sword with the right hand which one would "swish" against ones enemy thus requiring one to be on the left hand side of the track.

Less fancifully, another reason is due to the Japanese railway system having been set up by British engineeers in the 19th century. They designed the system to be "LHD" (ie stand on the platform and the train arrives from the right) the trams followed that and the automotive era continued that.

LH train
http://www.sarahbiddle.com/img/bullet.gif
RH train
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/speedrail/images/speedrail7.jpg

Mike.

Bogger77

Hagar wrote:

I am definitely not sulking over this. Have a look back a couple of posts where I said I had found other people's opinions well informed and I acknowledged the contribution they had made.

Nobody agreed with the proposition, that's fine, I learned something.

What is the purpose of the continued browbeating after the post I've mentioned?

That's all I'm objecting to, not the kicking I got, but the needless continued kicking.:mad:

I'll stop kicking too, sorry

Hagar

Thanks guys. No harm done. A good kicking never hurt anybody.

Gatster

The Japanese drive on the left for the same reason the British do, in ye olde days when on horseback (bearing in mind most ppl are right handed) it was important to have control of the horse with the left hand and freedom to draw your sword with the right hand

Swashbucklingy quality.

69 mustang

Saruman wrote:

If for instance i was drving from Tallaght to Liffey valley using the M50 there would be NO WAY for me to get there driving the opposite way. It would need changes on almost every junction we have.
You cant come off, gor around the roundabout heading towards lucan as there is no where to get into it. The slip road down is almost at a 180 degree angle so major changes would be needed.

I don't see a problem if you if you don't use the new traffic light by pass bit. like the way it was then 4 years ago slip of at the Dead Mans Inn and your there.:)
Mind you using the M50 at peek times wont get you to many places.:D

69 mustang

Bogger77 wrote:

They are placed at locations where people have been killed by tourists driving on the wrong side.
There are notices, well at least there were, in Rosslare, Shannon area, West Clare and Mayo

Nothing like telling a person not to do some thing after they do it.:rolleyes: