Awkward marital intimacy issue

PeterJL

I'm married 7 yrs, mid-thirties, male.
Can anyone shed light on this personal issue ?

My wife has a low libido or at least avoids sex for most of the month.
At one time we had a patch where we had no sex for the best part
of a year if not more.

This aside... there are other things which I've no idea if they are
normal or not. I'd find it too hard to bring these sorts of issues
up with my male friends/confidantes because what one gets up to
in the bedroom at least in my book should really be kept fairly
private to the individuals in the marriage...

Anywhow.. to cut to the chase. How abnormal is it for a wife who
does love her husband to avoid handjobs or oral or anything which
involves the actual release of semen. As far as I can figure out
she seemed OK about giving me hand relief during a very early
stage in our marriage but it was ditched very early on.
Also bizarrely I remember her once making a passing comment
on the way that the odour or smell of "men's semen" disgusted
her. This was said just after I had climaxed.
At the time I didn't read too much significance into that
comment but now I am kind of re-evaluating it given the way
this whole side of our intimacy went into total decline.

It seems to have been OK for her when she conceived both of our
children through planned pregnancies. Also I don't believe her
oddness about cum/semen is a fear of pregnancy thing.
What is worrying me is that it is something more deep seated
and it more than spooks me. I tried to bring it up sensitively once
and she was pretty much in denial that there was any issue.

Also oral is something which seems to be a big issue for her.
So much that is has always been her to bring it up (me never
brave enough) and always in a negative way as if she has
a negative fixation about it.

For me this issue and just general awkwardness she seems to have
about close intimacy have kind of taken their toll on me over
the years. Personally (trying not to be crude here) it is tough for
me to resolve my whole relationship with her when (for example)
I look at the cum produced during private masturbation and I
think to myself that this natural gooey stuff is something which
my wife has never fully accepted as part of the ordinary
produce of lovemaking.

In summary I love her and the fact we have 2 lovely children
only adds to the painfulness of this situation.
Maybe I am over-reacting to something which many women have
an issue with... Basically I'm confused...

PJ

PeterJL

Anyone ?

-PJ

bp

from a womans point of view...

it does taste and smell disgusting:)

i would try talking to her......but dont go straight to the point cause that will cause a major row! did she even mention any problems in her past?

PeterJL

I think I tried to bring it up indirectly and using as much sensitivity
as I could before. I think she dived the issue and made small of it.
Oral for her is a complete no-no. I've never directly requested it
because I kind of realised early on that she had grave misgivings about
it. It is so long ago but I think she made some very strong statement
about it being the one thing that she could not understand any
woman doing for a man. I think when I heard that I just let things
lie.

However, it is the lack of her (to be blunt) fondling me during
foreplay and just the sense that I've gotten over the years that
she really will go to no ends to avoid being next or near to me
when I climax other than with conventional sex (protected or
unprotected in the case where we were trying for kids) that
gets to me. I actually remember once when I was very frustrated
making the suggestion that I might need to masturbate while
next to her in the bed and that I might just stay close to her
while doing it that she actually suddenly decided it was a better
idea for us to have full sex (with condom) instead.


As for her past. No she has never mentioned anything.
Her bond with parents/siblings is too strong for me to suspect anything
there. Also she has never mentioned any relative in a bad light
so I'd say if there was anything there then I'd probably have
picked up on it so far.

JP

secret_squirrel

It could be a lot of things - from good ole catholic guilt to repression due to bad experiences to a genuinely low libido.

Unless you talk about this subject with her you will never know. You were quite eloquent in your post so I dont think you will have much problem gettings your point across.

Just be sure to emphasise the lack of intimacy side of things rather than the losing your mess side of things. And as BP mentioned semen isnt necessarily the nicest smelling/tasting substance in the world, however a lot of people find that the pleasure they can give their partners during oral sex outweights the odd funny taste or smell.

You can also affect how your cum smells and tastes with the food you eat.

You dont want to get sidetracked though. Be clear its being intimate with her that is causing a problem (that is the major point right) - rather than her being a convienient place to drop off your load. In most relationships sex is about intimacy and healthy expression of your love. - Although there is nothing wrong in defying convention as long as you both are happy - which you clearly arent right now.

Good Luck

bp

on the whole oral sex thing that is nothing big....there are many many women who refuse to even contemplate it, masterbation....she mightnt like the feeling of semien but i dont know about why she wont sleep with you at all. could you suggest speaking to a third party about it? have you tried asking what her fantasy would be (i'm sure you have, but if you havent it is an option)

did she even enjoy sex?

trishh

From a woman's point of view, my advice would be to talk to her honestly about your feelings. To do this, make sure it is in a relaxing environment and that there won't be any interruptions. Good Luck.

Binomate

Would viagra help at all?

The Sweeper

OP, it doesn't have to be anything to do with her past. Women don't have to have been phyiscally or emotionally abused to have problems with sex.

The thing about sex is that everybody has an opinion on it. If we're not doing it we're thinking about doing it, if we're not thinking about doing it we're talking about doing it and that usually leads back to thinking about doing it and if you're lucky, doing it all over again.

I don't think I know a single adult in my whole life who doesn't have an opinion about sex. And I know quite a few children who have an opinion about it too ("Ugh!! That's yucky!")

This whole varied range of opinions about sex, coupled with the media bombardment - television, radio, magazines, billboards, newspapers, you names it - mean it's very easy to develop hangups about sex. You are constantly being told what to think with regards to your body, your sexuality, your sex life and your relationships. Depending who you talk to, you need to be: loose, chaste, virginal, adventurous, relaxed, sexy, humble, independent, dependent, inter-dependent, co-dependent, a lover, a minx, a vixen, a nun, a slut, a goddess, a whore and ohbythewaywhere'smycleanshirt.

Semen is a bodily fluid. Just like the rest of the bodily fluids - mucus, vaginal discharge, urine, sweat, saliva - sometimes it's okay and sometimes it's minging. Fact is, if I had to choose between a Mai Tai and a cup of cum any time, it'd be the Mai Tai for me. (With crushed mint please, not blended.) Cum doesn't taste fantastic. Anyone who says it does, I kinda feel sorry for them. Sounds like they've been more bi-curious than epicurious and could do with spending more time on the culinary than the carnal. But I'm happy to admit that - I've long accepted that the porntastic vision of a woman lapping up a funk facial in the ultimate money shot has more wrong with it than right.

Your wife doesn't like cum. She's not unusual. However, where it's affecting your relationship is that she's gone beyond the point where she'll put up with the smell, taste and texture of cum for you. She wants nothing to do with it. That makes me wonder a few things.

How do you think your wife wants sex to make her feel?
What do you think your wife expects from sex?
Do you think if your wife left you and slept with someone else, she would enjoy sex more?
Are your wife as a sexual person, and your wife as your wife, two different people to you? If so, why?
Do you even think of your wife as a sexual person?
Do you think your wife thinks she's pretty? Beautiful? Sexy? Desirable?

If your wife is awkward about being intimate it will take more than your sheer persistence to bring her around. And like all problems, the first step to making it better is that she needs to want to be different. If she's happy in an uncomfortable, stilted relationship, you're in serious trouble.

If however, she's even more miserable than you are, and thinks to herself "what's wrong with me that I can't enjoy this", there may be hope for you. She needs to investigate all the little trip-switches in her head that set off her different responses to sex. You need to understand that there's probably a HUGE amount of stuff going on that you're not aware of.

It will take time. It may take a lot of time.

If I were you, I'd start with this wonder of wonders, the interweb. Google low libido issues. Google body image issues. Read the naff women's mags - not the ones that tell you how to crochet a surrogate vagina, the proper articles about how sex makes you feel - and take on board the information. Then start steering your wife towards that information. Ask her to read something for you. (NOT WITH YOU. She's probably not NEAR ready for that.) Then ask her if she wants to talk about it. Try not to fight with her. And do not ask her a question that starts with the word "why".

If she completely, totally and utterly refuses to cooperate with you, or make an effort at all, then I think you need to evaluate your life and decide what you want to do. It takes two to tango. And one to tapdance.

PeterJL

Thanks so far for some very thoughtful replies.
Ive taken a lot on board.

What kind of gets me internally angry about all of this is that I have
a major hunch it is about catholic guilt .. convent education.
She is extremely bright and it just makes me sad as to how
darn destructive some of the negative inuendo the Catholic
church sent out about human sexuality that it probably has had
more the effect of messing up more marriages than they will
ever care to admit. I actually still even go to catholic church
myself so I am not trying to church bash here. It is just I believe
that church has through the past 50 yrs spent too much of
its energies in trying to interfere with how committed couples
should behave. (rant over)

I agree with one of the posters about oral / swallowing, etc.
Personally I would find that hard to reconcile with a loving/respectful
relationship. However, just the mere not wanting to be in the
proximity to me cumming seems odd to me.
For me for example the smell of my wife when she is aroused
is a turn on and just seems to intensify the intimacy I feel during
sex, etc. So, I find it odd that her inclination was to avoid those
smells/sensations during sex.

Also, I am aware that diet varies the composition of semen,etc
and I am very hygienic and have a balanced diet. However,
this feeling of being not fully accepted actually sometimes
ironically ends up making me feel dirty and unattractive.
This in turn affects my self esteem and general feeling of
masculinity... which is a problem!

The Sweeper

Peter you shouldn't feel bad or dirty about yourself. You're neither bad nor dirty for wanting to have an intimate relationship with the woman you married.

Do you think your own feelings of awkwardness and unattractiveness affect your sex life?

PeterJL

Actually I probably expressed that poorly.

I think I'm actually pretty confident most of the time about myself.
However, if I labour in my mind at all about the way our intimacy
has taken a nosedive it gets to me and it sort of drags me down a
little. Usually I recover from that. It is just unpleasant.

Something I probably hadn't fully gotten across was the fact
that my DW is not the easiest to sit down and talk to (even
sensitively) about sexuality. I believe she definitely enjoys
it once we eventually do it and there is no faking, etc. In fact
she'll be honest on the occasions when her climax has fizzled
out too soon, etc (which is rare but not completely uncommon).
I think she is very old fashioned about sex. I mean I would
probably have a heart attack if she suddenly approached me
over a cup of tea to ask me what she could do to improve our
sex life. For her it is an awkward topic and she only ever
flirts with the topic in a giggly way.

To give an example also on her personality -- she would never
watch sex in the city. She would feel uncomfortable with the
explicit (even short) scenes that crop up on it. She would
watch Little Britain however, because I reckon its safe.
It might refer to sex but in a humorous way so she can laugh
it off.

The Sweeper

Well here endeth the wisdom of my armchair pyschology. She's your wife, you know her. You know you have a problem.

Even old dogs can learn new tricks - don't give up on her. I'd start off with reading matter if I were you though - books, articles, the internet. They're gentler than a face to face and can be easier to start you off.

PeterJL

BP mentioned about whether I had ever asked her about her fantasies.
That is an interesting question.
I think I once tried to approach that in a sensitive but light hearted
way to see if she would open up.

If I recall she didn't open up. It's a great idea but I think its almost
a non-runner with her because of her general attitude to sexuality.
It seems like she sees sex in a much more functional way than
I would see it and probably what bothers me is that I know by instinct
that there are more women out there who can see beyond that
sort of narrow view. One thing I should say is that it may seem
from my post that I am almost sex-obsessed. That is not the case.
Picture though if you were locked in a restrictive marriage. One
way of dealing with it is via infidelity. In my case I am trying to
rise above that and trying to see if I can have a more enriched
relationship with my wife because I am attracted to her.


On another issue actually I don't even know when or if she
masturbates. She doesn't seem to have ever come to a full
realisation that sharing intimate information is a way of increasing
the bond and trust between two people. She has no reason
to be mistrustful of me. I've never strayed but I am of course
worried that if the restrictiveness becomes more longterm
that I might eventually be caught on the hop so as to speak.

P

Enii

Just wondering was your wife sexually active before she met you? Did she enjoy sex with other partners?

audge

I am by no means an expert on this subject, but I'll share what little knowledge I have gathered from my past experiences, and the past experiences of my friends.
I have a friend who had no issues with oral sex, and was quite boastful of the fact that she always swallowed, then one night her boyfriend came really soon, far sooner then expected, and apparently it tasted and smelled disgusting, so bad it made her want to vomit. She has not given head since, and that was about 2 years ago, that experience was enough to make her feel sick at the thoughts of giving oral sex.
I have to admit, I am not a big fan of hand jobs, not where cum is involved. It makes me feel a bit sick. I've no problem with giving a hand job as long as the cumming part happens elsewhere (penetrative sex)
As last but not least, I know a girl who had sex with her boyfriend several times a week, then she started a new job, became under a lot of pressure in college, and was generally exhasuted all the time, her hubbie was very understanding, and sex dwindld to maybe once a week, only problem is, habits die hard, and now once a week is the routine, despite the fact that she's finished college and not under so much pressure. People can actually just get used to not having sex, just get lazy and comfortable.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a bad experience can be enough to put someone off, or just falling into a cosy nonsexual routine can lead to long term lack of sex!
I don't know if any of this applies to your situation, just thought i would give a ladies perspective.

PeterJL

For Enni:

My wife told me she was a virgin when we met. I generally believe
that at least in terms of her never having had penetrative sex with
anyone else. I can also believe it based on her conservative background
and even her attitude now.

However, the one thing that did kind of raise a minor doubt with me was
that aside she made when I climaxed once and she mentioned something
about the "smell of men's semen". There may have been no significance
in it but it did get me thinking much later as to whether she had an
unpleasant experience in the past and this evoked a slight flashback.
Perhaps I read too much by thinking that way. For me her female
smells even if not entirely fresh, eg sweat , etc don't gross me out
when in the context of lovemaking. It intensifies my feeling of closeness
to her.

audge

PeterJL wrote:

whether she had an
unpleasant experience in the past and this evoked a slight flashback.
Perhaps I read too much by thinking that way. .

Do not start barking up that tree! Seriously, lots of women don't like the smell, it does not mean they have suffered some form of sexual abuse!

Do you know your wife at all?? Why cant you talk?

you shouldn't be having embarrassing marital problems, not of this nature, its not like you want her do anything that could be deemed of perverse nature.

I am sure, at this stage, you would be willing to overlook oral forms of satisfaction for any kind of sexual intimacy, and then you can progress from there, why cant you tell her this?

I don't see how a marriage can work without communication

PeterJL

Audge,

Yes. I definitely think this applies in our case. The cosy nonsexual routine
is exactly what I fear she fell into about 3+ yrs ago when we ended up
not having sex/intimacy for well over a year. She used to do the crossword
and just turn over away from me and go asleep - it was a conversation
killer....
or go to bed early or just avoid making a connection with me and it
just spiralled out of control. I ended up trying to rescue that and she
did admit that it was a habit and she did apologise. I was at my wits
end at that point.

To me the best intimacy we have had has been for me when she has
come to me for it. I've grown tired of actually having to second guess
her moods to figure out if we can connect or not this month or the
next month. It ends up being a burden for me and I'd much prefer
if she would do something like say (as she used to) some evening
lets go up stairs and make love. That hasn't happened for a very
long time.

audge wrote:

I
I guess what I am trying to say is that a bad experience can be enough to put someone off, or just falling into a cosy nonsexual routine can lead to long term lack of sex!
I don't know if any of this applies to your situation, just thought i would give a ladies perspective.

PeterJL

Hi Audge,

Yes. I've done some background research and I realised that the whole
idea of past abuse and false memories is a complete minefield and I
definitely believe that the most likely explanation has nothing to do with
abuse. I guess I just had to put that theory out there just to get a
woman's perspective.

About the communication - That is the toughest part. I think a lot
of the difficulties stem from the fact that her parents are very
conservative and that has coloured her opinions on sexuality.
We've never had a proper relaxing conversation about sexuality
*after* marriage. Strangely we had a few before marriage and I
think part of the problem may be her view of herself as a mother/wife
as opposed to a lover. I'm sure this is common but I think our case
is a bit further out on the fringes - but I could be wrong.

I remember her once saying about she couldn't imagine her mum
& dad having sex. Sure - most of us would find that a difficult
image to evoke. However, we shouldn't be trying to limit our
sexual enjoyment because of some kind of reservations about
how our parents might have acted in the same circumstances.

I think this is relevant because she has a very strong bond with
her father who is very religious right-wing. A nice man in many
other ways and I guess I still have to respect his points of view.
However, she takes far more soundings from him even nowadays
after 7+ yrs of marriage with me than she would take advice
from me. I think he has made her over-dependent on his advice
and I think it is partly an ego thing on his part.
(sorry to digress but I think the above info is relevant)

audge wrote:

Do not start barking up that tree! Seriously, lots of women don't like the smell, it does not mean they have suffered some form of sexual abuse!

Do you know your wife at all?? Why cant you talk?

you shouldn't be having embarrassing marital problems, not of this nature, its not like you want her do anything that could be deemed of perverse nature.

annR

What you say about your wife has ranged from comments about her lack of libido, lack of intimacy, dislike of semen anywhere near her - to her general attitude to sex - to her attitude to sex within marriage - to her upbringing and relationship with her father. It sounds to me like you've thought a lot about it and it could be that you're on the right track.

>>However, we shouldn't be trying to limit our sexual enjoyment because of some kind of reservations about how our parents might have acted in the same circumstances.<<

If you are on the right track, I think she is letting her general attitude to sex and sex within marriage, interfere with her marriage, which is ironic.

For this reason maybe the suggestion of some counselling would bring that home to her. It may also help her explore things which she won't talk about. She doesn't sound very open to discussion from what you say. If you think that would really upset her, maybe that's what's needed. Or maybe write her a letter being really open and frank and let her mull over it and try to change her attitude.

>>she did admit that it was a habit and she did apologise. <<

Maybe there is hope then that she does know something's not right, maybe just can't discuss it this time round.

Victor

I'm just wondering if these things end up in fights / arguments as to whether ahving a referee might be useful. Consider a marriage course or relationship counselling.

Enii

Dr. Phil had a whole show about sexual problems within a relationship today, it was very good. Maybe check out his website for advise. i think there are discussion boards on it. www.drphil.com

PeterJL

Thanks Ann for the nice reply.

Yes there seems to be a number of factors involved.
As you can see I am in danger of just being burdened
with over-analyzing my own wife which really isn't
a place I want to be long term and its a pity its gotten
to that stage. However, as you can imagine these aren't
topics I could easily bring up with male friends/companions
because they are just so personal.

Some of the things which are going on are normal such as
her being tired and having lots on her plate.
What troubles me a bit is that I know that she will probably
bring up the idea of trying for another child in the next
year or so and this will be probably against a background
of very little sex in our marriage right now. From experience
I remember that she got really horny when trying for our
first child and she even kind of encouraged me by saying
that we could have fun in trying for a child. This is complex
but I was fine about having a child but looking back on that
now (and I'd never want to divulge this to her) I was
perplexed that for the previous year before that she
spent most of the time avoiding sex and doing crosswords
in bed and I felt the one time I can correlate her being
really enthusiastic about sex was to have a child.
That makes me feel a bit used as it was if I felt she
was prepared to have me go through the equivalent of
cold turkey for months and then just flick a switch
and .. (don't want to go there ....but you can see what
I am saying I guess)...

annR wrote:

What you say about your wife has ranged from comments about her lack of libido, lack of intimacy, dislike of semen anywhere near her - to her general attitude to sex - to her attitude to sex within marriage - to her upbringing and relationship with her father. It sounds to me like you've thought a lot about it and it could be that you're on the right track.

>>However, we shouldn't be trying to limit our sexual enjoyment because of some kind of reservations about how our parents might have acted in the same circumstances.<<

If you are on the right track, I think she is letting her general attitude to sex and sex within marriage, interfere with her marriage, which is ironic.

For this reason maybe the suggestion of some counselling would bring that home to her. It may also help her explore things which she won't talk about. She doesn't sound very open to discussion from what you say. If you think that would really upset her, maybe that's what's needed. Or maybe write her a letter being really open and frank and let her mull over it and try to change her attitude.

>>she did admit that it was a habit and she did apologise. <<

Maybe there is hope then that she does know something's not right, maybe just can't discuss it this time round.

rambler

From what you have said a lot seems to be with your pleasure, you havn't mentioned anything about how she feels about you giving her oral, maybe concentrate on her pleasure, relax take things easy remember women take longer than men, maybe then you might get a result

PeterJL

Hi rambler,

Actually I'm not sure now if I mentioned this on forum or PM but
I have tried giving her oral and she isn't comfortable with the idea.
To be actually completely honest its the intimacy more than the
pleasure that is missing. I would derive a lot out of giving her
pleasure and to me that counts as intimacy as much as me getting
any pleasure. To be honest lets say tonight she told me she
was tired but she would love for me to make her climax (say
manually or orally) then that would psychologically make me feel
that some intimacy had returned to our marriage and that would
go a great deal to making me feel we were starting to get on
an even keel again.

However, the issue is that she is awkward about intimacy and
it really only crops up usually at one time per month (and that
is usually only when I am vigilant to ensure it might happen
because as I mentioned earlier once I gave up the battle and
she got into the habit of no sex for months and months on end.)

So - it isn't about my pleasure at all. It is actually about me
wishing my wife would come out of her shell and enjoy and
share more what is natural. Personally I think she is slightly
imprisoned by old fashioned thinking that sex is naughty and
while that can be a turn on for some/many it seems to have
negative resonances for her.

I mean for example.. when we have actually gotten around to
having sex once a month on more than one occasion when she
climaxed and got very passionate she almost apologised for
being too animalistic. That was a clue to me that she has still
difficulty with shedding some of her inhibitions about having
wild and enjoyable sexual pleasure in a normal marriage.
Like I mentioned earlier it as if she is trying to reflect on
the fact that her mother and fathers generation were too
sensible and pious to enjoy sex like that.... therefore there is
something possibly wrong/immoral about it ...



P

rambler wrote:

From what you have said a lot seems to be with your pleasure, you havn't mentioned anything about how she feels about you giving her oral, maybe concentrate on her pleasure, relax take things easy remember women take longer than men, maybe then you might get a result

Miss Fluff

PeterJL wrote:

I mean for example.. when we have actually gotten around tohaving sex once a month on more than one occasion when she
climaxed and got very passionate she almost apologised for
being too animalistic. That was a clue to me that she has still
difficulty with shedding some of her inhibitions about having
wild and enjoyable sexual pleasure in a normal marriage.
Like I mentioned earlier it as if she is trying to reflect on
the fact that her mother and fathers generation were too
sensible and pious to enjoy sex like that.... therefore there is
something possibly wrong/immoral about it ...P

That's so sad
Definitley sounds like sex is a means of procreation as opposed to recreation for her. Just as a matter of interest, outside of sex, are you tactile and affectionate with each other or are you only affectionate when trying to instigate sex?

annR

She should read one of those books about setting yourself free and enjoying sex etc . . .I know that's not very helpful . . but if she loosened up and actually explored her own desires she'd probably have a great time and so would you. I feel a bit sad that she can't seem to do that in a happy marriage in this day and age. That's why I say maybe it's only the realisation that it is interfering with her marriage will push her to do something. But I suppose she will also have to let go of whatever thoughts she has about it being a bad thing. She so needs to loosen up!

PeterJL

I am tactile towards her in the more general sense.
She can be odd about that too though although it
can come down I guess to her needing her personal
space. I think she is much happier to sit on the couch
doing a crossword/soduko or watching a soap rather
than to cuddle. She would hardly ever approach me
for a cuddle but this is where some of the trouble
starts because if I come over to sidle up besides
her she can more than occasionally pass a smart
comment about "don't I have my own seat to sit in".. etc.
Then I'll just feel rejected after a while and I guess
then she probably can read my anxiety through body
language/signals and that probably makes matters
worse.

I had to try to introduce some of the fun factor back
into our marriage after that 1+ yr of no sex/touching.
However, it hasn't been easy. The other part of the
fun factor was just sharing a joke, etc. However, she
would wonder sometimes why I seem to be down but
it doesn't seem to dawn with her at those times that
it is probably because we haven't been intimate
for weeks and I'm finding it hard to lighten up.

P

Miss Fluff wrote:

That's so sad
Definitley sounds like sex is a means of procreation as opposed to recreation for her. Just as a matter of interest, outside of sex, are you tactile and affectionate with each other or are you only affectionate when trying to instigate sex?

BoozyBabe

Does she care for you at all or does she just see you as her gateway to children!!!!

It sounds like a really mean way to treat your husband of 7 years.
Her coldness towards you seems to be in more areas than just sex, or that's how it's starting to come across like, but maybe I'm reading you wrong?

Miss Fluff

PeterJL wrote:

I am tactile towards her in the more general sense.
She can be odd about that too though although it
can come down I guess to her needing her personal
space. I think she is much happier to sit on the couch
doing a crossword/soduko or watching a soap rather
than to cuddle. She would hardly ever approach me
for a cuddle but this is where some of the trouble
starts because if I come over to sidle up besides
her she can more than occasionally pass a smart
comment about "don't I have my own seat to sit in".. etc.
Then I'll just feel rejected after a while and I guess
then she probably can read my anxiety through body
language/signals and that probably makes matters
worse.

I had to try to introduce some of the fun factor back
into our marriage after that 1+ yr of no sex/touching.
However, it hasn't been easy. The other part of the
fun factor was just sharing a joke, etc. However, she
would wonder sometimes why I seem to be down but
it doesn't seem to dawn with her at those times that
it is probably because we haven't been intimate
for weeks and I'm finding it hard to lighten up.

P

You sound like such a decent bloke and you obviously care really deeply about her. There are two people in your marriage though and it sounds like she's the one who has been calling all the shots. This could deteriorate into a brother/sister-type, sexless relationship if you don't act on this soon. Have you ever really talked about why intimacy is such a problem or why sex is apparently equated with feelings of guilt/shame? Another question is after your year of abstinence, how was sex introduced into your relationship again and was the year of being without ever really discussed? You REALLY need to discuss how you feel about this with her.

PeterJL

Hi MsFluff:

Yes - I'm keenly aware that it could degenerate into some kind
of platonic relationship to all intents and purposes and that is
why I feel compelled to try to rescue it from ever degenerating
that way.

If I am to stand back from all of this maybe I have completely
misread things and she might not have anywhere near as much
issues with intimacy than I might be surmising. However, little
observations all add up to that for me and I think I have good
intuition and I am quite perceptive. I did try to carefully enquire
of her why she seemed somewhat awkward with some areas
of intimacy and she denied it and sort of laughed it off rather
than confront it. This confused me. That's why I yearned for
a female perspective on all of this. She has acknowledged that
she was more racy or risque (as she once put it) in the past
(i.e in the lead up to marriage) and that people change. That
is plausible. I have fond memories of us before marriage when
I felt that I could share any inner secret with her and this
completely helped form the bond. However, since that sort of
openness about sexuality seemed to just get gradually ditched
in the early years of marriage it just left me confused as to
the overall health of our relationship.

Miss Fluff wrote:

You sound like such a decent bloke and you obviously care really deeply about her. There are two people in your marriage though and it sounds like she's the one who has been calling all the shots. This could deteriorate into a brother/sister-type, sexless relationship if you don't act on this soon. Have you ever really talked about why intimacy is such a problem or why sex is apparently equated with feelings of guilt/shame? Another question is after your year of abstinence, how was sex introduced into your relationship again and was the year of being without ever really discussed? You REALLY need to discuss how you feel about this with her.

Zulu

It sounds pretty bad alright. I'd have to agree with BoozyBabe here. Sorry.

Miss Fluff

PeterJL wrote:

She has acknowledged that
she was more racy or risque (as she once put it) in the past
(i.e in the lead up to marriage) and that people change. That
is plausible. I have fond memories of us before marriage when
I felt that I could share any inner secret with her and this
completely helped form the bond.

Thing is, after 7 years of marriage, 2 kids and the banality of day to day routine, I guess it's not so easy to be at it like rabbits as some of that initial passion is bound to wane. It's good that she hasn't always been so reticent though. All I can say is that you seriously need to woo her again. If you can, surprise her and take her away from your current environment in an attempt to inject some of that passion back into your relationship where the two of you can be alone together and be a couple again as opposed to Mum and Dad. I suppose it's easy to forget about moonlight and roses if you've got pooey nappies and parent teacher meetings to think of but you'll simply have to make the time. Maybe after a few days of complete R & R you'll be able to get back some of that closeness and discuss where you two are heading.

annR

It's a bit worrying that she is not tactile in general, however that may not be because of a lack of affection but because she doesn't want to encourage any sex.

I think you've had loads of patience and it would be very easy to keep feeling rejected and become hostile to her and make things really difficult. Or as you said before, end up having an affair. That would be awful obviously. Before anything like that happens you really need to open up the communication with her in whatever way it takes. She needs to face it. Keep trying.

The suggestion about going away for a weekend might provide an opportunity. Try to make it somewhere where you go on long romantic walks and there's nothing else to do.

annR

like shopping for instance. Sorry I forgot to add that but I think it's really important that she doesn't have a chance to cop out by going shopping or something.

PeterJL

Hi Ann :

She does respond more in the last year or so to me being tactile.
If I time things right she will sit down with me on the main sofa
and maybe put her feet across towards me and show some level
of tactile affection.. although (and sorry to be a bit cynical) it
can sometimes feel like it could be just about her comfort but at
least she is involving me to a degree in getting that comfort which
is nice.

I definitely feel that she seems to be devising ways of heading off
any sex in that (and I hope this doesn't sound unfair) she often
declares minor ailments like sore ankle or belly ache or many other
things which suddenly seem to put a dampner on the evening.
Maybe I am hyper-sensitive. It is not that I am requesting or
expecting sex even once a week but it seems like she lays down
signals nearly every night which pre-empt the possibility that
we might by accident end up being passionate. The exceptions
to this are usually a week or so after her period assuming she doesn't
have any work on the next day and assuming we aren't staying
with parents or at a hotel where we share with the kids,etc.
So what ends up happening is that I'm usually at the end of my
tether at the end of the month as such just happy that finally
there is some resolution between the pair of us.
That's as good as it gets.
What I kind of crave for back is the odd night where she might
take the lead and we have some strong signals that something
good is going to happen.

Instead what happens is that I am probably a bundle of neuroses
at the end of the month and grateful that we connect physically.
She usually enjoys it but then its forgotten again for another
month .... and the saga continues.

annR wrote:

It's a bit worrying that she is not tactile in general, however that may not be because of a lack of affection but because she doesn't want to encourage any sex.

I think you've had loads of patience and it would be very easy to keep feeling rejected and become hostile to her and make things really difficult. Or as you said before, end up having an affair. That would be awful obviously. Before anything like that happens you really need to open up the communication with her in whatever way it takes. She needs to face it. Keep trying.

The suggestion about going away for a weekend might provide an opportunity. Try to make it somewhere where you go on long romantic walks and there's nothing else to do.

PeterJL

This is an idea I thought about in the past.

She definitely needs to chill out. She talks too much about work
and I am prepared to listen, etc but sometimes it gets in on me
because I feel she is a little narcissistic about her own pursuits
and seems to forget that I have a life too.

Once or twice in the past also she has spoke of sexuality as
animalistic and seems to see it in very black/white terms
rather than something complex. That also ends up indirectly
insulting me because I am a gentle/firm lover and it isn't that
I am uncaring of her feelings and pleasure when making love.
It just seems that she cant breakout of that idea of sex
being something men are always wanting from women and
part of women's jobs is to keep their men under control.
It is for me such a one dimensional view of sexuality it is almost
insulting to us men who are caring for their partners.

P

annR wrote:

like shopping for instance. Sorry I forgot to add that but I think it's really important that she doesn't have a chance to cop out by going shopping or something.

Vangelis

Peter, I'm a woman, but from what I read, your wife seems very uncaring and too busy with her own things. I myself am generous when it comes to cuddling, kissing and everything that intimacy involves with my own boyfriend(my husband-to-be). It is natural to me that I share myself with and please the one I will spend my life with. Because I love him above everything else in the world. So I simply don't understand your wife. How old is she?
Has the romance died out? When you say there is no touching/intimacy, do you mean any tender physcial or sensual signals at all? Not a wink, a stroke with her hand..? Nothing? ¨

As far as I can see, your wife has a problem, and as long as she does not want to look into herself to solve it, you are stuck. She must be willing to be open and search herself, or at least explain to you why she doesn't want to sleep with you or be intimate at all. So long as she isn't, you're not going anywhere.

simu

OP, maybe ye should book a session with a sex therapist. Why not make use of the expertise of professionals!

Vangelis

PeterJL wrote:

Once or twice in the past also she has spoke of sexuality as
animalistic and seems to see it in very black/white terms
rather than something complex. That also ends up indirectly
insulting me because I am a gentle/firm lover and it isn't that
I am uncaring of her feelings and pleasure when making love.
It just seems that she cant breakout of that idea of sex
being something men are always wanting from women and
part of women's jobs is to keep their men under control.
It is for me such a one dimensional view of sexuality it is almost
insulting to us men who are caring for their partners.

P

Peter, I didn't see this. She does seem to have serious issues. I have issues with debaucherous sexuality myself as you may well see in Humanities, but there is NOTHING wrong with sex and love-making when married( or possibly even with fiancés). You sound like you are caring and tender when with her and that you love her sincerely, so why these issues have suddenly emerged after many years of marriage is funny. If I were you I'd feel like that comment about sex being animalistic as an intended indirect insult. But don't get mad at her. And don't give up on your marriage. It's not worth all the unhappiness. Be patient with her like you've been for such a long time allready.

May I suggest that you quit approaching her and see if her interest is triggered by your lack of interest? It might be that she feels that you are too demanding. But you decide that because I don't know you or your wife from the inside out.

PeterJL

Vangelis:

Just to clarify something from the previous reply you gave.
She does touch and give off signals but they are much
weaker than in our early marriage. 3 or so years ago we had
a 1+ yr absence of any intimacy. She withdrew into herself.
It was after our second child was born but it wasn't post
natal depression. Women may understand this better but I
think she had difficulty reconciling being a mother/wife
and being a lover also. It was if it was OK to be bold before
being a mother but this switch activated when motherhood
arrived that it was unmotherly and not consistent with
being a mum to also have an intimate side with her husband.

This kind of resonated with something she once said to me
about not being able to imagine her mum/dad having sex.
I wouldn't spend a nanosecond trying to imagine my parents
having sex even though it was through that marvellous
union that I was created. It seems completely unliberated
to try to model ones lifestyle on something private and of
another time/context.

I think also there is a difference between her upbringing and
mine in that respect. My parents would have been liberal
at least in the sense of not pushing too many ideas down
our throats. I've seen her parents are very strong on morals
almost to a slightly obsessive degree. I agree with many of
those morals but to deliver those moral messages in a very
authoritarian way ends up with the children either rebelling
against them or (as I see it in her case) agreeing with them
but putting too much weight on trying to model her life
by their standards for fear of dissapointing them...

Vangelis wrote:

Peter, I didn't see this. She does seem to have serious issues. I have issues with debaucherous sexuality myself as you may well see in Humanities, but there is NOTHING wrong with sex and love-making when married( or possibly even with fiancés). You sound like you are caring and tender when with her and that you love her sincerely, so why these issues have suddenly emerged after many years of marriage is funny. If I were you I'd feel like that comment about sex being animalistic as an intended indirect insult. But don't get mad at her. And don't give up on your marriage. It's not worth all the unhappiness. Be patient with her like you've been for such a long time allready.

May I suggest that you quit approaching her and see if her interest is triggered by your lack of interest? It might be that she feels that you are too demanding. But you decide that because I don't know you or your wife from the inside out.

Vangelis

PeterJL wrote:

Vangelis:

Just to clarify something from the previous reply you gave.
She does touch and give off signals but they are much
weaker than in our early marriage. 3 or so years ago we had
a 1+ yr absence of any intimacy. She withdrew into herself.
It was after our second child was born but it wasn't post
natal depression. Women may understand this better but I
think she had difficulty reconciling being a mother/wife
and being a lover also. It was if it was OK to be bold before
being a mother but this switch activated when motherhood
arrived that it was unmotherly and not consistent with
being a mum to also have an intimate side with her husband.

This kind of resonated with something she once said to me
about not being able to imagine her mum/dad having sex.
I wouldn't spend a nanosecond trying to imagine my parents
having sex even though it was through that marvellous
union that I was created. It seems completely unliberated
to try to model ones lifestyle on something private and of
another time/context.

I think also there is a difference between her upbringing and
mine in that respect. My parents would have been liberal
at least in the sense of not pushing too many ideas down
our throats. I've seen her parents are very strong on morals
almost to a slightly obsessive degree. I agree with many of
those morals but to deliver those moral messages in a very
authoritarian way ends up with the children either rebelling
against them or (as I see it in her case) agreeing with them
but putting too much weight on trying to model her life
by their standards for fear of dissapointing them...

I can understand how she feels that motherhood and loverhood(if you excuse the word) are incompatible. To make love to your husband in the same house where your baby could feel awkward and perhaps "impure" to some. But that's individual, I guess. You seem to think that her parents' standards have affected her deeply. That may well be. And how to attack that problem is difficult because it is obviously very deep-rooted.

It seems like the more you explain, the more I understand that you are very aware of what is going on and why she behaves so introvertedly. Even rejectingly. But if her problem derives from her parents' strictness, you should not blame her. My parents are very liberal, but they wish for my best still. They tell me that they will never criticise whoever I choose to marry and so on, and that it's my life. I thank God for having such parents.

It seems like you know the core of the problem, but are unknowing of what to do. What kind of things have you tried to approach her? Have you told her the things that you post here in boards.ie?

PeterJL

Hi Vangelis:

I've tried to discuss this very eloquently and sensitively with her
in the past but it usually can result in her nonetheless becoming
extremely defensive as if to scold me for having the audacity
to bring up a discussion about sexuality/intimacy. It seems
like it is a walk on eggshell territory for her no matter how
careful I am in trying to discuss it.

Vangelis wrote:

I can understand how she feels that motherhood and loverhood(if you excuse the word) are incompatible. To make love to your husband in the same house where your baby could feel awkward and perhaps "impure" to some. But that's individual, I guess. You seem to think that her parents' standards have affected her deeply. That may well be. And how to attack that problem is difficult because it is obviously very deep-rooted.

It seems like the more you explain, the more I understand that you are very aware of what is going on and why she behaves so introvertedly. Even rejectingly. But if her problem derives from her parents' strictness, you should not blame her. My parents are very liberal, but they wish for my best still. They tell me that they will never criticise whoever I choose to marry and so on, and that it's my life. I thank God for having such parents.

It seems like you know the core of the problem, but are unknowing of what to do. What kind of things have you tried to approach her? Have you told her the things that you post here in boards.ie?

Vangelis

PeterJL wrote:

Hi Vangelis:

I've tried to discuss this very eloquently and sensitively with her
in the past but it usually can result in her nonetheless becoming
extremely defensive as if to scold me for having the audacity
to bring up a discussion about sexuality/intimacy. It seems
like it is a walk on eggshell territory for her no matter how
careful I am in trying to discuss it.

Well, I don't think I can be of any help to you, Peter. Your wife is in trouble and maybe it takes something as hurtful as a divorce or the threat of a divorce to make her understand that she loves you. But I'm sure she does!

Have you thought about more professional help, like a counselor?

PeterJL

I did suggest counselling way back.
She was quite set against that.

That was one of those confusing times where I felt
maybe there was more to all of this behaviour and that
she felt threatened by counselling.
I figured that if all was OK with her then she would
have nothing to fear with counselling and in fact
I'd just end up looking like an eejit for raising
the issues. However, my guess was that she
just would find it too tricky to be that open
in front of a 3rd party.

I guess if she has trouble being open about sexuality
with me then I suppose going to a counsellor where
things were out in the open would probably really
freak her.

Vangelis wrote:

Well, I don't think I can be of any help to you, Peter. Your wife is in trouble and maybe it takes something as hurtful as a divorce or the threat of a divorce to make her understand that she loves you. But I'm sure she does!

Have you thought about more professional help, like a counselor?

Vangelis

PeterJL wrote:

I did suggest counselling way back.
She was quite set against that.

That was one of those confusing times where I felt
maybe there was more to all of this behaviour and that
she felt threatened by counselling.
I figured that if all was OK with her then she would
have nothing to fear with counselling and in fact
I'd just end up looking like an eejit for raising
the issues. However, my guess was that she
just would find it too tricky to be that open
in front of a 3rd party.

I guess if she has trouble being open about sexuality
with me then I suppose going to a counsellor where
things were out in the open would probably really
freak her.

Have you tried to give her an ultimatum? Like "make love to me or leave me"? That's somewhat selfish and very immature, but when desperation grabs you..

LegacyUser

Uneasy about disclosing my regular sig...... for reasons that will become all too apparent.

Recognise (some) of the issues you describe, married a good bit longer than you and mrs has never been very good at physical intimacy with me. She's happy enough having sex a couple (or more) times a month, has grand intense orgasms and doesn't mind dragging me upstairs when she's in the humour but is not good at touching me intimately and oral is something I've only ever read about... lol. Now where we're different is that hugs and cuddles etc are a regular feature of everyday life, so that's cool, and sex is a liberating and often wild experience, so that's all good (other than that our sex drives are horribly (and I reckon stereotypically) mismatched - such is life. Attempts to introduce the prospect of playing with my willy with her hands has resulted in major ructions, despite the sensitivity with which the subject is raised (no pun intended.) Basically I've given up on the subject, I enjoy what sex we have and take care of my own needs in private as when I want to. I love her to bits and if this is something she can't get her head around it ( no feckin pun intended there either...) after /mumble/ years, then feck it, no one's perfect.

I guess I'm responding to you because I often long for someone who wasn't "icky" about that part of my body (other than for penetrative sex) - I reckon it's down to our old friends the convent education. I'm also responding because tbh I'm gutted for you - your missus needs to rescue you. I reckon she's repressed, complacent about her relationship and takes your existence for granted. I've had a couple of bad patches, a fair scelp of post natal depression after each of our kids didn't help, but I knew she was going through a bad patch and she recognised that it wasn't all beer and skittles for me and said she knew that I was missing out on that part of our life. The fact that she thought enough about me to tell me that even though she was on a nasty rollercoaster was worth an awful lot to me.

Your bad patch seems considerably worse - and I'm genuinely sorry to read your telling of it, cause you seem like a decent guy. If you don't want to end up as your wife's "brother" you need to take action and it doesn't sound like gentle hints is the way to go. If I was you (and I absolutely hate saying it, but here goes) I'd tell her straight out that I was fecking miserable, as far as I was concerned I might as well be married to a nun and I didn't sign up for that at the alter, that I reckoned we might have some chance at rescuing a mutually intimate and supportive marriage if we got professional help (and I don't mean a chat with the parish priest about the evils of the flesh...), or if she was prepared to cop on and think of me as someone she fancied and make a bit of an effort. ou could offer her a long weekend away to see if you could concentrate on each other for a change by way of softening the blow, as suggested earlier and contrary to another poster's advice, I'm a great supporter of retail therapy as a route to nookie....... long romantic walks ar fine for 10 second ads for chocolates, imho, and feck all use for anything else, particularly in November. Now a ramble half naked on a sunny deserted beach and a romp in warm tropical waters is a diferent matter, but I digress.

I hope you get this resolved, life is a one-time thing and woefully too short at that.....


The Lone Ranger.

PeterJL

No, I've never tried any ultimatums as direct as that .. !

However, curiously I remember her once saying to me during
one of our discussions that maybe I should give her an
ultimatum. I guess it was her way of saying that she
had enough of us coming back to this issue that kind of
plagued our more recent married life.

I do think things have improved in the last while even if not
particularly dramatically. I am starting to think that I need
to get a grip of myself and start being firm and being a man
and not let her behaviour control me because when I stand
away from it it actually seems that I probably become a
mouse and a neurotic heap and that probably makes me
unattractive to her.

I know this might sound silly but I guess being proud and
masculine and headstrong are things I associated (rightly
or wrongly) with having passion in my life. When the passion
went I think I have too often fallen in the trap of self pity
and become a right sullen grump.

-P

Vangelis wrote:

Have you tried to give her an ultimatum? Like "make love to me or leave me"? That's somewhat selfish and very immature, but when desperation grabs you..

pickarooney

Is she generally reluctant about making decisions in her life? How is she (if you know) in her professional life or as regards decision-making concerning the children?

I think in a lot of ways your patience and understanding (perhaps not the best word, as you seem a little baffled about where she's at), almost to the point of martyrdom, are counter-productive. As long as you say nothing or don't react badly to her ongoing reluctance to opening herself up to you and assuming her own sexuality, it's unlikely she'll take it upon herself to make a change. Unless she's forced into action somehow, she'll probably remain in this sort of passive-aggressive asexual funk, or in actual fact get worse.

If you want to help her, yourself and your marriage, you may have to start being less compromising and putting more responsibility on her shoulders.
Easy to say, of course, but rather more difficult to put into action.

Zulu

Is she waiting for you to suggest a separation? Perhaps this is an attempt to force your hand?