Irish National War Memorial vandalised.

PH01

Saw this on the news yesterday.
On Wednesday night, vandals broke into the Irish National War Memorial gardens there at Islandbridge and painted slogans on many of the monuments. These were in the main anti-British slogans and some simply said "Traitors".
It was no coincidence in the day that these scumbags chose to deface the memorial. Yesterday was Armistice Day. A day when we should remember the estimated 49,000 Irishmen, all volunteers, who were killed during the First World War.
It saddens and angers me to see what was done there. What normail homan being could do such a thing?
And how does the commemoration of all those irish men and women who served with the British Army equates with being anti-Irish?

bonkey

All I can say is that to some, not siding with "the Brits" is the prime requisite for Irishness. Anyone who doesn't actively oppose them......

Its sad really. Then again, I think the desecration of any memorials is saddening.

jc

mycroft

PH01 wrote:

Saw this on the news yesterday.
On Wednesday night, vandals broke into the Irish National War Memorial gardens there at Islandbridge and painted slogans on many of the monuments. These were in the main anti-British slogans and some simply said "Traitors".

Esp since anyone who did leaving cert history can tell you that the Irish Home rule movement actively encouraged volunteers to enlist to counteract the Ulster Volunteer movement enlisted en masse on Carson's orders, in the hope that their volunteering would shame the british govt into halting inacting devolution legislation that was in motion.

The vandalism is shameful and ignorant.

BTW anyone seen the really beautiful monument to Austrialian dead in both wars by Hyde park? Really work checking out if you're in the area

Nuttzz

The irish volunteers were urged by redmond to join up to fight for the british in WWI and that their service would aid Irish freedom.They died thinking that they could free Ireland through their service, however these vandals have not idea of history.

Hagar

mycroft wrote:

The vandalism is shameful and ignorant.

I would not be a great supporter of the British Army but I respect the sacrifice those men made. It was a disgraceful, senseless act.

ionapaul

80 years of the teaching of nationalistic history in our primary schools can lead to this sort disgraceful behaviour. Even the suggestion that the Irish WWI soldiers were as brave as the 1916 rebels would get you a kicking in certain Dublin pubs today. That said, no doubt the culprits were teenage idiots off their heads on Buckfast and Bulmers...

Chaos-Engine

Racism being spray painted on memorials of any sor tis terrible...

However I do not agree with honouring soldiers who, ever they are. War is an evil we do not need to honour. Fighting for your country is in no way honourible.

Hairy Homer

ionapaul wrote:

80 years of the teaching of nationalistic history in our primary schools can lead to this sort disgraceful behaviour.

I don't agree with defacing the memorial, but let's not go down the route of sanctimonious twaddle.

Have a look at FAllujah today and ask yourself, does the teaching of a biased, selective version of history in schools in Britain and America lead to mass destruction of this sort?

Speaking of saying dangerous things in pubs, I dare you to go to a pub full of Chelsea supporters in London on a weekend night and say out loud: 'I hope the Saville enquiry leads to a number of former soldiers being brought to justice for the heinous crimes committed on Bloody Sunday.'

Mind you, I suggest you write a will first.

PH01

Hairy Homer wrote:

I don't agree with defacing the memorial, but let's not go down the route of sanctimonious twaddle.

Have a look at FAllujah today and ask yourself, does the teaching of a biased, selective version of history in schools in Britain and America lead to mass destruction of this sort?

Speaking of saying dangerous things in pubs, I dare you to go to a pub full of Chelsea supporters in London on a weekend night and say out loud: 'I hope the Saville enquiry leads to a number of former soldiers being brought to justice for the heinous crimes committed on Bloody Sunday.'

Mind you, I suggest you write a will first.

And what has all this got to do with the Irish war dead of 1914 -1918?

A Dub in Glasgo

Probably nothing but I would imagine it was a post to try and counter the bull from ionapaul that this disgraceful act is a result of our education in Irish history. It is as if he is trying to airbrush out of history the fact that we were once occupied by a foreign power and we fought against this foreign power. There are some people who see this fight as a more worthwhile and honourable fight than the fact that Irishman were used as cannon fodder in WW1.

Where the WW1 soldiers brave: IMO Yes
Was WW1 an honourable fight: IMO No
Does the above justify vandalising the memorial: IMO No

PH01

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Probably nothing but I would imagine it was a post to try and counter the bull from ionapaul that this disgraceful act is a result of our education in Irish history. It is as if he is trying to airbrush out of history the fact that we were once occupied by a foreign power and we fought against this foreign power. There are some people who see this fight as a more worthwhile and honourable fight than the fact that Irishman were used as cannon fodder in WW1.

Where the WW1 soldiers brave: IMO Yes
Was WW1 an honourable fight: IMO No
Does the above justify vandalising the memorial: IMO No

You make a good point on airbrushing there. In many ways the Irish dead of WWI have been airbrushed out of our history.

ionapaul

Hairy Homer wrote:

I don't agree with defacing the memorial, but let's not go down the route of sanctimonious twaddle.

Have a look at FAllujah today and ask yourself, does the teaching of a biased, selective version of history in schools in Britain and America lead to mass destruction of this sort?

I don't think we are disagreeing here at all! Nationalist rubbish / indoctrination leads to problems in all countries, right? The primary and secondary level history taught in each nation state is government influenced and obviously extremely subjective. It is extremely hard to reject or accept views differing with this teaching - witness the trouble any revisionist historians have had in Ireland since the '60s!

Meh

ionapaul wrote:

I don't think we are disagreeing here at all! Nationalist rubbish / indoctrination leads to problems in all countries, right? The primary and secondary level history taught in each nation state is government influenced and obviously extremely subjective.

I think the problem is too little education rather than too much education. I'd be surprised if the scumbags who did this can even read, never mind passing their Junior Cert history.

fiacha

Chaos-Engine wrote:

Racism being spray painted on memorials of any sor tis terrible...

However I do not agree with honouring soldiers who, ever they are. War is an evil we do not need to honour. Fighting for your country is in no way honourible.

ridiculous. irish men and women who volunteered for service during both world wars deserve to be honoured and remembered.

they sacrificed their lives to protect Ireland from a very real threat.

LegacyUser

fiacha wrote:

ridiculous. irish men and women who volunteered for service during both world wars deserve to be honoured and remembered.

they sacrificed their lives to protect Ireland from a very real threat.

ww2 yes, ww1 was just daft and there was certainly no threat to us

fiacha

bananayoghurt wrote:

ww2 yes, ww1 was just daft and there was certainly no threat to us

germany was empire building when it escalated the dispute between Austro-Hungary and Russia. It was the oppertunity to take western europe and russia, and they went for it. If they had not been defeated by the Western Allies, ireland would have suffered along with the rest of the world.

bonkey

fiacha wrote:

they sacrificed their lives to protect Ireland from a very real threat.

What very real threat?

jc

<edit - nevermind...I see you've just answered that, although I don't think most historians would agree with the "threat" that you name>

therecklessone

Nuttzz wrote:

They died thinking that they could free Ireland through their service, however these vandals have not idea of history.

My guess is that these vandals have no idea full stop.

I can't work out whether I'm angry or just incredibly saddened by this.

The Corinthian

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is as if he is trying to airbrush out of history the fact that we were once occupied by a foreign power and we fought against this foreign power.

We kind of fought against that foreign power - after all didn’t all the risings and rebellions largely fail because they never really got popular support?

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote:

We kind of fought against that foreign power - after all didn’t all the risings and rebellions largely fail because they never really got popular support?

there's more ways to fight than with guns, pen is mightier than the sword etc etc

DeVore

Chaos-Engine wrote:

Racism being spray painted on memorials of any sor tis terrible...

However I do not agree with honouring soldiers who, ever they are. War is an evil we do not need to honour. Fighting for your country is in no way honourible.

How do you say that in German?

DeV.

mycroft

The Corinthian wrote:

We kind of fought against that foreign power - after all didn’t all the risings and rebellions largely fail because they never really got popular support?

Nope several rebellions had popular support, but lacked resources ie guns and were ruthlessly butchered by the English, if an american ever starts whinging about how they kicked englands ass way before us, point out that they the minor tactical advantage commonly known as "The Atlantic Ocean".

there's more ways to fight than with guns, pen is mightier than the sword etc etc

what on earth is your point?

The Corinthian

bananayoghurt wrote:

there's more ways to fight than with guns, pen is mightier than the sword etc etc

From an armchair no doubt - I've observed that's how patriotism is largely practiced in Ireland.

Elmo

We have a war memorial for a war that we were nutral in? Do all the other "nutral" countries comorate other armies?

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote:

From an armchair no doubt - I've observed that's how patriotism is largely practiced in Ireland.

not from the armchair, in the polling booth !

Elmo

From an armchair no doubt - I've observed that's how patriotism is largely practiced in Ireland.

Did you have a pen and some paper at the time?

mycroft

Elmo wrote:

We have a war memorial for a war that we were nutral in? Do all the other "nutral" countries comorate other armies?

Er. We were part of the british empire and did not have direct control over own government at the time, so when the British declared war, we didn't really have a choice. Conscription for Ireland was debated but rejected as they felt it would play into republican hands.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Corinthian wrote:

We kind of fought against that foreign power - after all didn’t all the risings and rebellions largely fail because they never really got popular support?

It was very successful for the people in what later became the Republic of Ireland

fiacha

DeVore wrote:

How do you say that in German?

DeV.

Feigling ??

The Corinthian

mycroft wrote:

Nope several rebellions had popular support

That’s actually rather arguable, TBH. Those that did command popular support across Ireland were more about who was king of England (a Scotsman or Dutchman ) than Irish independence. Those that were about Irish independence; most notably in 1798, 1803 and 1916 were local affairs with little popular support.

bananayoghurt wrote:

not from the armchair, in the polling booth !

Whoosh! Point well missed.

Elmo wrote:

Did you have a pen and some paper at the time?

"You can get more done with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It was very successful for the people in what later became the Republic of Ireland

The ones in those comfy armchairs.

How is that working out for you?

ionapaul

None of the unsuccessful risings following Robert Emmet's (and including his) enjoyed substantial popular support in Ireland. The Easter Rising least of all. The War of Independence had the support of a majority of those on the Ireland of Ireland, but not overwhelming support in its initial stages.
Most armchair Irish patriotism doesn't even take place in Ireland! Talk to our diaspora for *real* patriotism - foreign soil makes 'em love Ireland all the more!

mike65

ionapaul wrote:

Most armchair Irish patriotism doesn't even take place in Ireland! Talk to our diaspora for *real* patriotism - foreign soil makes 'em love Ireland all the more!

Tis what served the Provos well enough...that and robbing/kidnapping/extorting etc.

Mike.

bonkey

No chance of discussing the actual topic?

jc

ionapaul

bonkey wrote:

No chance of discussing the actual topic?

jc

Well, a moderator can always live in hope...

mike65

What? On the politics forum? When I can have a valid shot at the IRA?

Okay then....bloody outragreous behaviour which merely underlines the prevalence of boorish violent skangers out there. Just think the fun these pieces of sh1te could have in northern France and Belgium.

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

What? On the politics forum? When I can have a valid shot at the IRA?

.

Politics Forum - not the rant 'n' rave forum

Redleslie2

I know there's memorials at liberty hall and in waterford to the (200-300) Irish who fought for the government side in the spanish civil war, but is there any for those (750) who fought for the fascists? Should there be?

Dar

Redleslie2 wrote:

I know there's memorials at liberty hall and in waterford to the (200-300) Irish who fought for the government side in the spanish civil war, but is there any for those (750) who fought for the fascists? Should there be?

There would be if they had won. Only the victors build monuments.

Redleslie2

Dar wrote:

There would be if they had won. Only the victors build monuments.

Their side did win.

thejollyrodger

all I can say is that its a disgrace. People who died for freedom being called traitors.

bizmark

Chaos-Engine wrote:

However I do not agree with honouring soldiers who, ever they are. War is an evil we do not need to honour. Fighting for your country is in no way honourible.

:rolleyes:
Thank god most of those soilders are dead now lest the see how some people treat their memory and the memory of their fallen friends .But it must be easy for some people sitting behind their pc's liveing a relatively easy safe life to say soilders arent worth honoring.

christ what is wrong with this country

pork99

ionapaul wrote:

That said, no doubt the culprits were teenage idiots off their heads on Buckfast and Bulmers...

Sinn Fein's constituency in other words

Some little c#nt wanders around Stillorgan graffitying "CIRA" everywhere. I'd love to stamp on his boll#x

A Dub in Glasgo

pork99 wrote:

Sinn Fein's constituency in other words

Some little c#nt wanders around Stillorgan graffitying "CIRA" everywhere. I'd love to stamp on his boll#x

You do know that SF condemn the CIRA

shltter

pork99 wrote:

Sinn Fein's constituency in other words

Some little c#nt wanders around Stillorgan graffitying "CIRA" everywhere. I'd love to stamp on his boll#x

first off cira if they are linked to any political it is not sinn fein

secondly as a republican i dont agree with defacing and vandalising any headstones or memorials

IMO Irish people who fought for the british in world war 1 did so for many reasons i think that unfortunately an awful lot of Irish people died in a war that should never have happened and an awful lot of them were misled into thinking they were fighting for the freedom of small nations and that this would include ireland
So in a respect a lot of them died for Irish freedom as it turns out mistakenly but they were not to know that at the time
also many irish republicans were in the british army at some stage in their lives james connolly afaik
the second world war is completely different it was a fight against fascism/nazism and you have to respect any one who fought against fascism/nazism we owe them a huge debt wether it was in the british army or any of the allied armies
the same as i respect people who fought in the international brigades in spain

i think it is important to remember the people who died in both world wars
that does not mean that you have to think the first world war was a good thing
i think the people who vandalised this memorial should grow up the soldiers who are remembered their were not british they were Irish soldiers serving in the british army for many different reasons.

as i said already i'am a republican and the people who did this are not in my opinion
they may have some narrow minded nationalist thinking but they are not republicans

pork99

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You do know that SF condemn the CIRA

well ok I agree with them on some things

gandalf

Its digusting that these so called republicans did this, I would bet hard cash they don't even know the history behind why so many of these men of Ireland were going to fight in the first world war. They went to fight because they were led to believe it would guarantee Home Rule. Also trying to equate todays values to a war 90 years ago really isn't on.

As regard the 2nd World War offically we were neutral but in practice we were edging towards the allies. Over 70,000 Irish citizens from South of the border fought in that war with honour.

Its time some people around here grew up and realised that there is so more to Ireland than their narrow green tinted glasses allow them to see. Corinthian is partly right btw 1916 did not have popular support at all as was the case with many of the earlier risings. The British however made a serious miscalculation and executed the ringleaders of 1916 (men who are real heroes not like the so called "freedom fighters" of today!) and they lost the support of the people so by the time of the War of Independence 1919 the whole country (well apart from the part with Carson and his boys) was behind the IRA.

gandalf

Btw just wondering were the same morons responsible for this as well

Gardai probe painted hate slogans on Jewish centre and war memorial

THERE was outrage last night at the daubing of a Swastika on a Jewish centre and the throwing of paint and hate slogans written on a cross and altar at the National War Memorial gardens in Dublin.

As President McAleese spoke of bringing communities closer together during her inauguration address, and Remembrance Day ceremonies were held to commemorate the dead of two world wars, gardai were investigating the racist attacks which provoked angry reaction from political and church leaders.

Justice Minister Michael McDowell said he "utterly condemned" what had happened. There was, he said, no place in Irish society for people with such views.

And Labour'sjustice spokesman Deputy Joe Costelloe described them as "unacceptable and shameful".

In the anti-Semitic attack, a black Swastika was painted on the front wall of the Irish Jewish Museum off South Circular Road, the first incident of its kind in the centre's 20-year history.

At the National War Memorial in Islandbridge the vandals sprayed yellow paint on the cross, altar, and memorials and wrote slogans including "Traitors", "Burn in Hell", and "Free Iraq".

Last night the Royal British Legion said that despite the damage it was going ahead with its Remembrance wreath-laying ceremony in the gardens tomorrow.

Reacting to the Nazi symbol on the museum, Chief Rabbi Dr Yaakov Pearlman said he was "shocked beyond words that a deplorable racist act like this" could take place here.

Source here - needs registration but free

LegacyUser

to go slightly against the grain,

there was outrage in communities across the country today that general day to day vandalism is taken for granted, bus shelters and windows everywhere and anywhere smashed, phone boxes, unoccupied buildings and houses damaged and no one cares, but spray some paint on a memorial and every tom dick and harry politician is screaming outrage /searches for a 'they make me sick' pukey but can't find one :mad:

pork99

shltter wrote:

first off cira if they are linked to any political it is not sinn fein

secondly as a republican i dont agree with defacing and vandalising any headstones or memorials...

...as i said already i'am a republican and the people who did this are not in my opinion
they may have some narrow minded nationalist thinking but they are not republicans

Ok my Sinn Fein remark was a bit snide. I've always thought there were very broadly 2 types of Sinn Fein supporters - the ones with a considered political point of view, which mostly I don't agree with but I can respect, and the ignorant scum "kick the brits" element. I think the peace process over the last has acted like a centrifugal force on Republicanism, anyone with genuine political interests going with the current Sinn Fein leadership and the latter yobbo element more at home supporting CIRA/RIRA.

Getting back to the topic I have to admit that some Sinn Fein politicians have recently shown a more positive constructive attitude. I'm thinking in particular of Alex Maskey while Lord Mayor of Belfast laying a wreath at the cenotaph in Belfast and going to commemorative services in war cemetaries in Flanders. But that shows a level of political maturity and sensitivity that you cannot expect from the average skanger with spray-paint.

Victor

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is as if he is trying to airbrush out of history the fact that we were once occupied by a foreign power and we fought against this foreign power.

"We"? "We" didn't.

CathyMoran

My greatgrandfather fought in the war - is disgusting that people could do such a thing.