Life. Is it worth living?

tribble

I just wanted to get peoples opinions on what keeps them going.
Not necessarily what keeps them from the bridge but rather what causes you not to even consider it.

From what I can see (and I may need glasses) the majority of people spend the majority of their waking time either bored in work or depressed in their free time save for a few brief moments of joy.
These moments of joy are for the most part derived from sex, drugs or some other temporary short lived (<4 hours) chemical imbalance in the brain.
Even love fades rather quickly when it is not liberally combined with endless of hours of drudgery with which to compare it.

Having said this I obviosly incorrect in my hypothesis (,I hope, ) or we would have far more that the few hundred every year who decide to end it all.

Argument such as "I couldn't do it, my family would be so upset" are redundant as this is a purely social customs and as such are subject to change (the wests attitude vs. the Japanese attitude for example).

So what am I overlooking?

tribble

PS : no this is not a PI.

Fysh

Not exactly a philosophical question, is it?

Whether your life is worth living depends on what criteria you choose to judge it by. If you want to make this thread worthwhile, I'd suggest posting up a few different types of criteria and then questioning their pros and cons. A good example would be the difference between eastern and western attitudes to suicide, what this entails for the individual and what it suggests about the culture itself.

Brian33

Why continue to live? Well, why not?

Life isn't drudgery to everyone, if you find it that way, maybe it's time for a change in perspective. If, to you, the majority of people look bored or depressed, that says much, much more about you than it does about them.
Life, just as it is at any moment, is all that it can be and is therefore perfect. It's a persons appreciation of this statement that decides how happy their life is.

In the words of a good friend of mine:
I'm Living to Love,
Loving to Learn,
And Learning to Live.

~Brian

DadaKopf

You might enjoy reading Albert Camus. The Myth of Sysiphus examines why life is worth living. Why, if the universe is meaningless do we not just kill ourselves? This theme is eloquently covered in his beautiful novel The Outsider.

A famous quote by Beckett goes something like: "I can't go on! I'll go on."

This should explain everything.

I was really into him as a moany teen and, having just reacquainted myself with his ideas, after four years of philosophy, he really had something going.

tribble

Fysh wrote:

Not exactly a philosophical question, is it?

To use DadaKopf's Albert Camus reference "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide."
But I agree with you on the non specific nature of my post, bit too fluffy, I knew that when posting.

Cheers DadaKopf for the references. This has been annoying me for a few years and I now have the time to look at it properly.

Brian33 wrote:

In the words of a good friend of mine:
I'm Living to Love,
Loving to Learn,
And Learning to Live.

Weird, I've been try that from the opposite way around.

mike65

Hope.

Mike.

Flamingfud

Ah, the old Pandora's Box answer. But I'd have to disagree. Do I not kill myself because I hope that one day I'll be happy, that I won't have to work, or worry, or stress or toil like I have to now? Frankly, no. I think that they're always be problems in life and that that's part and parcel of what the universe is. Hell, we make problems for ourselves.

I'd agree with what Brian 33 said. It's all about perspective, about relating to reality in a certain way. You say that "moments of joy are for the most part derived from sex, drugs or some other temporary short lived (<4 hours) chemical imbalance in the brain.". I happen to that that I'm a rather longer-lived chemical imbalance in my brain. The question is not 'Why is Life So Hard/Boring?Depressing?", but rather, "Why Do I Think Life Is So Hard/Boring/Depressing?"

By the way, thanks for the book references, I've Amazoned the 'Myth' which I'd read before but forgotten the name of. Thanks!

DadaKopf

I think the key is to live for something bigger than yourself. The problem is caring too much about achieving it.

In a sense, tragedy is the most wonderful aspect of human life.

Georgiana

Possible reasons most people keep living

(1) The status quo is "I'm alive now" and its a big challenge most people could not or would not undertake to do anything about the status quo

(2) The issue never occurs to them

(3) They realise that life is an interesting journey and accept that there is a lot of crap along the journey as well as really good stuff- this could be called maturity.

elivsvonchiaing

"Veronika decides to die" by Paulo Coehlo... This book made me think! It really does reach into the question imho

Crucifix

DadaKopf wrote:

A famous quote by Beckett goes something like: "I can't go on! I'll go on."

From waiting for godot right? To the poster, you should see that play if you get a chance.
As for the topic at hand, sometimes I do feel the only thing keeping me going is a vague desire to fight adversity.

tribble

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

"Veronika decides to die" by Paulo Coehlo... This book made me think! It really does reach into the question imho

Freaky, there's actually a copy of that downstairs sitting on my kitchen table.
Don't know who owns it but it's been sitting there all week.

tribble

Crucifix wrote:

From waiting for godot right? To the poster, you should see that play if you get a chance.

Hmmm, is the book a equally good bet or should I try see the play?

blobert

If the alternative to life is nothingness (unless you believe in heaven) then I'd say being alive is always going to be more interesting than being dead.

I used to be a lot gloomier. But my general attitude to things has improved greatly in the last few years. Thus while circumstances haven't changed very much my outlook on life is much improved. The same life, I might have said was crap a few years ago, I really enjoy now. It's all a matter of how you look at things.

On a philosophy related note, don't read any Schopenhauer. His views on life will depress the hell out of you. A lot of philosophy is quite depressing come to think of it.

Try reading something more cheerful..

Seraphina

sometimes i wonder. when i look at everyone wasting 40 hours of their life a week. just to live. it seems so pointless. especially when studying archaeology and hunter gatherers who spend on average 12-15 hours a week foraging for food.
modern society seems intent on creating so many complications that life is no longer life. it is an endless cyclical struggle just to live.
it boggles the mind.
people spend four years in college studying something they dont like so they can spend the rest of their life working in a job they dont like.
i have lived for 20 years, yet lived and experienced so little.
why? because im apparently working towards something greater. a job. a job which will take more and more of my life away. just so i can continue living.
it seems such a waste. but then im kinda depressed right now, so my view of the world is obviously a little skewed.
i live, because while it seems pointless. well so is death. if i continue living, things may get better. i may be able to make changes. if i die. well i dont know what happens, but i certainly wont be able to see if things ever get better.

ferdi

seraphina, that is un ****ing believable, you completely just read my my mind.

in order to live you have to forgo life itself and wait out your drone like existance until your body finally gives out and you are returned to the dirt from which you came.

Trebor

well to me life is about pleasure. i can get pleasure from anything i want, it need not be the big things like love, sex, drugs, religion. as long as i can get pleasure from the little day to day things like a good movie, nice food, good company and interesting topocs to read about then i will always be happy. if something depresses me i just try not to think about it or go find somthing to distract myself but very little actually does depress me.

shiv

Veronika decides to die made me re-think things as well. Very profound.

For me, it's pure and simple, unadulterated curiousity.
What would I miss out on if I wasn't around tomorrow?
What would happen next in each area of my life?

It's like missing out on the news of your own life.
Maybe a bit of hope as well thrown in.

And I agree, you have to believe you're hanging around for something bigger than yourself.

What if it all means something???

shiv

tribble wrote:

Freaky, there's actually a copy of that downstairs sitting on my kitchen table.
Don't know who owns it but it's been sitting there all week.

Maybe it's not a "coincidence"...

Phil_321

If there was a painless way to end it, I'd consider checking out. I'm not depressed or anything, just don't really find life that interesting anymore.
Like some posters have said, you just trudge through it, waiting for the next bit of excitement, but as life goes on you find less and less to get excited about.

Seraphina

ferdi wrote:

seraphina, that is un ****ing believable, you completely just read my my mind.

cooooool... i wonder what else is in there...


*concentrates really hard and attempts to penetrate ferdi's BRAAAAAAAIIIN*

hrm... this doesn't appear to be working now... maybe if i got a poking device...

*wanders off in seach of poking device*

anyway, back on topic... i suppose curiousity is as good a reason as any. i dont believe im waiting around for something bigger than myself. as phil pointed out though, when you've pretty much seen it all, and get less and less excited about things, and cynicism finally drags you down (i can see this happening to me disturbingly early in life) well, whats the point then eh?

elivsvonchiaing

Seraphina wrote:

cooooool... i wonder what else is in there...


*concentrates really hard and attempts to penetrate ferdi's BRAAAAAAAIIIN*

hrm... this doesn't appear to be working now... maybe if i got a poking device...

*wanders off in seach of poking device*

Jebus! I was beginning to fancy this woman! Ah well I never wanted to be a dirty-old man anyhow

elivsvonchiaing

...Then again, come to think of it... I've no idea that you're NOT dead-set against dirty old men...

Fysh

Phil_321 wrote:

If there was a painless way to end it, I'd consider checking out. I'm not depressed or anything, just don't really find life that interesting anymore.
Like some posters have said, you just trudge through it, waiting for the next bit of excitement, but as life goes on you find less and less to get excited about.

I can't say I'd want to end my life now, or conceivably at any point - there'll always be things to experience and while it will obviously get harder to find new or different things to experience, I consider it a challenge.

Thordon

If the alternative to life is nothingness (unless you believe in heaven) then I'd say being alive is always going to be more interesting than being dead.

This is pretty much my feeling on it.

I dont think there is any major goal in life. Society romanticizes a lot of thing to make it seem that way (marriage, procreation etc), but its the simple pleasures that are worth doing. I try to never catch myself being bored and doing nothing about it. Theres always something fun/interesting I could be doing.

neuro-praxis

If you are not happy with the course of your life, then I would encourage you to change it, even if it means going against the grain. I don't mean throw sense out of the window, and I don't mean quit things if they are hard, but I do mean, analyse, examine, move.

I have made a lot of decisions in my life that my family or peers or whoever just don't understand, but they have been part of being honest with myself and more importantly TRUE to myself, and fulfilling what I think God wants for my life. Having faith, I believe that if you search after God, you will be given the desires of your heart...whatever they might turn out to be.

My point here is not "find God" (although searching after Him is a good idea in my opinion ), it's to do what is necessary to make your life into something really worthwhile.

Something that helped me sort out my direction in life this year was making a list of my values (i.e., things that are important to me). This really helped because I knew what I needed to be happy and peaceful and I went after it.

Make a list of:

1) Things I Need Every Day

(for me these were things like - spending at least some time with friends, at least some time working [whatever form that might take], hearing some music I like, laughing, at least some time alone - undisturbed, at least some time praying, at least some time with my husband, a good home environment, as much honesty and authenticity as possible, etc. etc.)


2) Things I Can't Live Without (the bigger picture)

(for me these were things like - deep, quality relationships [not just surface] with family and friends, grace, forgiveness, truth, using my brain and being challenged as an intellectual and as an individual, etc. etc.)


3) Things That Are Useful (either that you currently enjoy or aspire to)

(here I put down - good grades, livable income, car, etc. etc.)

---

Maybe if you feel your life is pointless you should find out what is important to you. Write it down, and pursue it. This has helped me a lot.

Good luck to all of you.

tribble

Trebor wrote:

well to me life is about pleasure. i can get pleasure from anything i want, it need not be the big things like love, sex, drugs, religion. as long as i can get pleasure from the little day to day things like a good movie, nice food, good company and interesting topocs to read about then i will always be happy. if something depresses me i just try not to think about it or go find somthing to distract myself but very little actually does depress me.

Agreed - I have mostly decided on a hedonistic lifestyle.
However, there are considerations such as...
1/ money (which requires some sort of work - be it regraded as moral, immoral, amoral by soceity)
2/ opportunity choice - if i do x i can't do y.
3/ conscience - which i am not completly devoid of yet.
4/ laws of physics - i can actually do very few of the things that i would like to do, such as intersteallar travel, swimming to China in 5 minutes etc.

tribble

shiv wrote:

Maybe it's not a "coincidence"...

True, I live at home and have recently stopped pretending to be happy (not necessarily unhappy, but neutral) when I am not - which is most of the time.

tribble

Fysh wrote:

I can't say I'd want to end my life now, or conceivably at any point - there'll always be things to experience and while it will obviously get harder to find new or different things to experience, I consider it a challenge.

There are lots (near infinite) of things to experience, but the most require going throught the motions until you can afford to do them. I've been drunk and alone at three in the morning wandering the streets of Beijing , fantasticly surreal experience - but the amount of time I spent in work to pay for the trip was considerable.

shiv

tribble wrote:

True, I live at home and have recently stopped pretending to be happy (not necessarily unhappy, but neutral) when I am not - which is most of the time.

Hey tribble, maybe you should read the book then, it's all about not faking being happy yet discovering that given the choice, it's amazing the happiness that is out there if you think your time on earth is limited..

It's good to let the facade drop though, it sure is exhausting..

paulinimus

tribble wrote:

I just wanted to get peoples opinions on what keeps them going.
Not necessarily what keeps them from the bridge but rather what causes you not to even consider it....

.

I have not studied philosophy in the accademic sence - instead I cose the sciences. I believe there is a philosopher in the heart of all of us, only it is suppressed, and no matter how wise a person considers themselves to be, they still do not know that they know...

Everyone has there own formula or paradigm for living and of course it will always be largely determined by the start given to you by chance.

It is worth bearing in mind that it is society and not the universe that dictates much of what you get or not get out of life.

Taking this on board, your opinion on whether life is worth living should of cource have nothing to do with tour relationship with society and everything
to do with the universe. I don#t believe there is any justification for a link between the ills of society and the nature of our chaotic universe. We are all <i>in medias res</i> so to speak. I do believe you get out what you put in, but of course you need to know what ingredients to put in and appreciate the
fruits of your labours. As a relatively young single man, I try to live life as if I dont have much time. This doesn't mean I am under pressure to do allot with life. On the contrary I take it very slow. For me it is all about what I dont do not what I do. I try not to waist time on things that dont have rewards.
I think you have to be strong inside to get the most out of life. You need to develop allot but show only a little. For me, a person should be an intrigueing
puzzle. That way if there are sparks between you and the right person, they can spend the rest of their lives trying to solve you and vice versa.
But, as I say, it is all about the universe for me, not society when it comes to philosophy, but what do I know...

: )

Chipboard

I am new to this forum, but I feel compelled to reply to the above threads. I am absolutely shocked at some of the comments above. Sure you have the right to feel bored/depressed/unloved etc but you have to realise its just a temporary thing. Everyone goes throught bad ****, some go through very bad **** but it makes you grow and become a better person. I'm not trying to belittle anyones problems. What seems like a small problem to one person could be astronomical to another, especially if they dont have anyone to talk to about it but surely you dont think you would grow (spiritually/intellectually) if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, lived a gift life, got all the beautiful women, were rich and never came up against adversary in your whole life. I can tell you, if this happened, you wouldn't appreciate the good stuff when it arrived because it was all good stuff ("there wouldn't be any sunshine, unless there was some rain"). I dont mean to talk down to anyone but I get a very strong feeling that some of the above posts are from younger people, say under the age of 30. I'm turning 32 in a few weeks time and I can tell you that some of what I considered the worst things that happened to me, actually turned out to be very fortuitous. There's no one thing that I could say that would convince you that it will get better (even though I know it will) but have a read of the following, it illustrates the point.


Two traveling angels stopped to spend the night in the home of a wealthy family. The family was rude and refused
to let the angels stay in the mansion's guest room. Instead the angels were given a space in the cold basement.
As they made their bed on the hard floor, the older angel saw a hole in the wall and repaired it.
When the younger angel asked why, the older angel replied....Things aren't always what they seem.

The next night the pair came to rest at the house of a very poor, but very hospitable farmer and his wife.
After sharing what little food they had, the couple let the angels sleep in their bed where they could have
a good nights rest.
When the sun came up the next morning the angels found the farmer and his wife in tears.
Their only cow, whose milk had been their sole income, lay dead in the field.

The younger angel was infuriated and asked the older angel - How could you have let this happen? The first man
had everything, yet you helped him,- she accused. -The second family had little but was willing to share everything,
and you let their cow die.

Things aren't always what they seem,- the older angel replied.
When we stayed in the basement of the mansion, I noticed there was gold stored in that hole in
the wall. Since the owner was so obsessed with greed and unwilling to share his good fortune, I sealed the
wall so he wouldn't find it. Then last night as we slept in the farmers bed, the Angel Of Death came for his wife. I gave her the cow instead. Things aren't always what they seem.

Sometimes things don't turn out the way you think they should. If you have faith, you just need to trust that every outcome is always to your advantage.
You might not know it until some time later.

elivsvonchiaing

Sounds like a rip-off of Paulo Coelho! However if this is your own stuff - sell it - looks good to me!

Chipboard

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Sounds like a rip-off of Paulo Coelho! However if this is your own stuff - sell it - looks good to me!

Actually I didn't know that it was by Paulo Coelho. In fact, I never even heard of Paulo Coelho until now. I found this (the second part about the Angels) on a computer I was deleting files from around 3 years ago and it wasn't attributed to anyone - If my post looked like I was taking credit for it, apologies, but its doubtful if anybody would be stupid enough to attempt to take credit for someone else's (I assume published) short story, on the internet. The first part was by me but I hardly think that anyone is going to be pay money to hear it, and by the way who mentioned money - what has that got to do with it. I posted that with good intentions but they're obviously lost on some people.

By the way, the piece below was written by Epictetus - just in case you accuse me of ripping off him as well!

Neuro

blobert wrote:

On a philosophy related note, don't read any Schopenhauer. His views on life will depress the hell out of you. A lot of philosophy is quite depressing come to think of it.

Don't read Schopenhauer! Are you mad! Schopenhauer was one of the few people who was able to look at the world and see it for what it is and not what we believe it to be. Yes, the world is truly an ugly place full of suffering and pain and the best way to overcome this suffering is via a form of quietism (a renunciation of desire) through aesthetic appreciation.

While not the first philosopher to theorise about the existence of the unconscious mind, Schopenhauer was the first to contend that it was the primary source of all human actions, long before Freud (who claimed to have never read any of Schopenhauer's works). Schopenhauer's work is of more relevance today than ever before particularly as Behaviorism has been displaced by Evolutionary theories in the field of psychology.

If you're interested in Arthur Schopenhauer's work I'd suggest that you start with his book Essays and Aphorisms to get a general overview of his ideas before moving on to The World as Will and Representation.

At a more general level, I think people often get confused about the goal of philosophy. That goal is to find truth. But truth and consolation are not synonymous and it is on this point that many people fall down.

tribble

Chipboard wrote:

I am new to this forum, but I feel compelled to reply to the above threads. I am absolutely shocked at some of the comments above. Sure you have the right to feel bored/depressed/unloved etc but you have to realise its just a temporary thing. Everyone goes throught bad ****, some go through very bad **** but it makes you grow and become a better person. I'm not trying to belittle anyones problems. What seems like a small problem to one person could be astronomical to another, especially if they dont have anyone to talk to about it but surely you dont think you would grow (spiritually/intellectually) if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, lived a gift life, got all the beautiful women, were rich and never came up against adversary in your whole life. I can tell you, if this happened, you wouldn't appreciate the good stuff when it arrived because it was all good stuff ("there wouldn't be any sunshine, unless there was some rain"). I dont mean to talk down to anyone but I get a very strong feeling that some of the above posts are from younger people, say under the age of 30. I'm turning 32 in a few weeks time and I can tell you that some of what I considered the worst things that happened to me, actually turned out to be very fortuitous. There's no one thing that I could say that would convince you that it will get better (even though I know it will) but have a read of the following, it illustrates the point.

I don't think (and I may be wrong) that you have tried to intellectualise the issue. To really think about your continued existance, the why the wherefore.

Now - should you have a belief in God or some hope of an afterlife then perhaps you may just bide your time here, but if you do not, then life takes on an altogether different hue.

But as I dare say most people these days have no such faith and believe that at the end of the day as far as the individual is concerned death is death. An end. Not good, not bad, just nothing.
If you are continuing your existance simply for the sake or others then I would question you sanity - that is no way to live.

I'm not about to top myself, but I can't see why people in the west get so het up about those that do. Sure some are clinically depressed and could benifit from drugs, but I'm sure many just see no point, good or bad, in living.

transperson

why is atheism so rampant?has no-one any spiritual side? from a neutral stand point it makes things easier to deal with.for the entirity of human history people have believed in something more but now over even my short life that has all changed.

for me what keeps me going is,hope/belief/curiosity in something more,be it futurelives,heaven,knowledge,experience,love,people,family,pleasure,nirvana,learning,discovery,growth and the whole world.in fact there is no reason not to be joyful in existance.its when i'm trapped in a way of looking at things that i get down on life,it always just takes time to realise that its only how this wee me is looking at things.once i do then im not sad anymore.read Power of the Now by eckhart toole [i think his name is anyway].it cant but change how you look at yourself and the world and bring joy to your life.

simu

transperson wrote:

why is atheism so rampant?

It's not really - only a tiny percentage of the world's population would describe themselves as atheists. Any one know if there are exact figures available for this? Twould be interesting to see if the proportion of atheists in the population is increasing or decreasing.

Neuro

transperson wrote:

why is atheism so rampant?has no-one any spiritual side

I'd rather be unhappy and sane than happy and deluded. As for The Power of Now, it's little more than saccharine pseudo-philosophical nonsense.

Pherekydes

Neuro wrote:

I'd rather be unhappy and sane than happy

To prefer being unhappy is hardly the mark of sanity.

transperson

neuro
thats fair enough,i do some times have doubts about things.a spiritual inquisitiveness seems to be innate in humans,all groups have it,pygmies to americans,is almost very human ever born in history[atheism is quite recent] deluded?a grand claim! anyway, why not enjoy life with delusions ,if they are that. i have looked for somewhere there are no delusions and cannot find any,at all levels we are ridden with ideas and concepts based on our past experience and learning.you said in an earlier post that the goal of philosophy is truth, i cannot find it ,every thing seems to be coloured by my perception and my delusions.i cannot find a self.i have nothing really to go on but my intuitions ,gut feelings and thoughts all of which are changable.can you honestly point me in the direction of truth and certainity.oneness and divinity seem right to me,it feels true and works.there is no evidence of it,it is purely a matter of faith in my case.i was raised as nonreligious and have arrived here myself.my veiws will change, im still young. there is no need to be so harsh and bitter. it will a person nowhere except to make their little ego feel better in its deluded superiority. there is a difference of opinion you believe that life is meaningless i do not.who is better?neither of us.
as for power of the now it is pseudo-philosophical and a bit icky but it genuinely made me a happier person, if you believe feeling good and having a positive outlook is in a way happiness.

solas

makes me think of the comment " I think therefore I think I am"

If anything thats what makes us humans "unique", we have the ability to choose how/what we think and in doing so we can change our perception of life and how we relate to it... if we want to.
"is life worth living?"
If you think life is worth living, than it most probably will be for you and you might find this reasoning increases your enjoyment level or sense of worth.
On the other hand, if you think life is a drag and that there is no purpose to it than I can't see how it will ever be enjoyable.
I suppose philosophy is about reasoning and if you can find one good reason why life is worth living more power to you, maybe realising that is purpose in itself..

simu

If people are going to discuss spirituality, I'd be interested to know what exactly they mean by it (no doubt, there will be differing views on exactly what it is).

Neuro

transperson wrote:

there is a difference of opinion you believe that life is meaningless i do not.who is better?neither of us.

I've always disliked the platitude "everyone is entitled to their own opinion". Opinions are worthless; the only opinions of any value are those that have some logical reasoning behind them. Opinions in this format:

"In my opinion X because Y..." are of infinately greater value than
"In my opinion Z".

Y can be analysed and the validity of the opinion verified.

e.g.

"In my opinion the world is round because the lower part of a ship disappears as it reaches the horizon" is far superior to "The world is flat".

By your reasoning, you could hold the opinion that the world is round, I could be of the opinion that the world is flat and neither of us would be wrong.

Neuro

Slow coach wrote:

To prefer being unhappy is hardly the mark of sanity.

Ah, quoting out of context! Have you ever considered a career in tabloid journalism?

Pherekydes

Neuro wrote:

"In my opinion X because Y..." are of infinately greater value than
"In my opinion Z".

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, however worthless it may be.

You're mixing up opinions with verifiable facts.

Opinions are subjective, and that's why everyone is entitled to one.

DadaKopf

Many would argue that facts are also opinions. Or, at least, the subjective and the objective are necessarily intertwined.

I subscribe to this idea.

SkepticOne

DadaKopf wrote:

Many would argue that facts are also opinions. Or, at least, the subjective and the objective are necessarily intertwined.

I subscribe to this idea.

That is interesting. Are opinions also facts?

Neuro

Slow coach wrote:

Opinions are subjective

And hence worthless! If everyone's opinions were of equal value regardless of their foundation we'd find ourselves in a quagmire of epistemological relativism; truth would have no value and it would render philosophy meaningless!

transperson

neuro
i ask again where is truth,in your opinion!!! or in supposed "fact" deduced through your logical reasoning,the only "true" way of knowing anything?

by what criteria do you deem something worthful or worthless?

can the value of something be judged by the rewards it gives to the particular people it effects or is emotional experience out of the question for you??

where is your Y evidence to support your claim X that you "know" that human existance is meaningless and random and that anybody who thinks it has some meaning is delusional?


i think that facts are just a set of assumptions about the world around us that happens to work and describe things well.so there is no real difference between fact and opinion,just opinions that work better and are accepted as fact [once upon a time it was a "fact" that the world was flat] . everybody is entitled to opinions and some work better than others.

in my eyes there is no real way that we humans can verify if life is meaningless and no divinity or unity exists so in that particular matter it is my beliefs and opinions against neuro's beliefs and opinions,which he seems to consider as "fact",without any evidence.

if neuro has evidence for his position then please present it,otherwise please do not be condecending towards others with different veiws as you have just as little basis to stand on other than your agrumentation.

magpie

we'd find ourselves in a quagmire of epistemological relativism

Oh no! not again!