Are 'ghosts' all in the head?

MrJoeSoap

Had an interesting conversation over dinner with the family today about ghosts etc...

My dad sternly believes that they are all in the mind, and because I have never seen one myself, and dont know of anyone who has seen one, I'd have to be inclined to agree.

Just thought it would be interested in peoples opinions on it, and whether anyone has theories to prove me right/wrong. I'm well open to suggestions!

dublin_apache

Good question !

I dunno to be honest, I've never seen one but I've often felt a presents in the room etc.......... :eek:

steviec

You can never actually prove it one way or the other, I'd be inclined to say it is but you never know.
I know one person who claims to have seen a ghost, and he's exactly the sort of person who wants to believe that sort of thing, therefore he saw one.
But I guess it's something we'll never know, really.

Saruman

I saw something once on a ghost hunt.. im a skeptic though. Dont know what it was but it was dark and like a shadow or something with no sound came towards me then went through a wall.

PeadarofAodh

I've never seen a ghost and if I ever feel like someone is watching me that I can't see, would just put it down to me being paranoid. I know people who I trust that have said they've encountered ghosts, however most of them say it was during the night so I always feel it could be related to them being tired. In short...I don't know, maybe

mayordenis

as with most im very sceptical but hoestly love the idea that the exist.

Gordon

dublin_apache wrote:

Good question !

I dunno to be honest, I've never seen one but I've often felt a presents in the room etc.......... :eek:

Darth Vader: I know what you got for Christmas Luke *ksshhhk*
Luke: What? How did you know?
Darth Vader: *ksshhhk* I felt your presents.

Zillah

I can sense your presents...

Brilliant.

As for ghosts being all in the head, that has two meanings. The first being that people make it up/imagine it/get confused with other things.

The second is that there really are ghosts but when people see it it's actually their brain forming the image, but from an outside source, and so no camera could pick it up.

Here's a theory for ya.

Premise : All humans have the potential for esp.
Second premise : Even after death, human beings remain in existence and retain their inherent ability for esp, maybe their continued existence is solely because of esp.

Deduction : If a ghost retains the esp it had in life, it could form an image of itself within the human mind which would then be percieved a a bizarre image, reminiscent of how the ghost remembers it.

This would explain : Why there has yet to be one credible video tape of a ghost. Why people often see ghosts as see through or shadowy etc.

I feel my point is greatly backed up by the fact that psychics who claim to see ghosts also pick up their names, and feelings, thoughts and memories. If a ghost was but an image, why would the psychic pick these up?

Maybe a ghost isn't even concious, maybe it's all that's left over from a lifetime of subconcious esp usage.

Oryx

I think ghosts are echoes of past events, like pieces of old movies that play over and over and can be seen by sensitive or unsuspecting people. Someday someone will probably come up with a scientific reason for them.

MrJoeSoap

steviec wrote:

You can never actually prove it one way or the other, I'd be inclined to say it is but you never know.
I know one person who claims to have seen a ghost, and he's exactly the sort of person who wants to believe that sort of thing, therefore he saw one.
But I guess it's something we'll never know, really.

But what if two people saw the exact same thing?

Obviously if they were both paranoid (in a haunted house or something), it could be considered suspect, but if it was a totally random occurance I guess they could pretty conclusively argue it was real.

I guess the majority of people will never know.

Zulu

Until someone can convince me otherwise (...this is an open challenge, and good luck) I don't/can't believe in ghosts.

Oryx

My belief is that if someone doesnt believe or doesnt want to see a ghost they block that part of their mind, and never do. You may say this is a cop out, but I have a proven belief in ghosts etc myself, im not trying to convince anyone, its up to you what you believe. I have seen a ghost myself, woke up one night and he was standing in the middle of the bed. He was see through in true ghost style!, but I could make out every detail, down to the stubble on his chin. Scared the absolute s**t out of me!

Zulu

KatieK wrote:

My belief is that if someone doesnt believe or doesnt want to see a ghost they block that part of their mind, and never do.

No offence - I've an open mind, but this sounds SO flimsy an argument, how can you expect anyone to accept that?

KatieK wrote:

You may say this is a cop out, but I have a proven belief in ghosts etc myself, im not trying to convince anyone, its up to you what you believe. I have seen a ghost myself, woke up one night and he was standing in the middle of the bed. He was see through in true ghost style!, but I could make out every detail, down to the stubble on his chin. Scared the absolute s**t out of me!

Are you sure you weren't dreaming? ...are you really sure?

Oryx

I was awake. I wasnt dreaming! I realise the argument is flimsy, I said so, but thats what i think. I have my own reasons for believing in this kind of thing, you have your reasons not to. Id love to be able to prove to you, but I cant. All we can do is exchange views, im not trying to convert anyone, and I realise 90% of people might think im bonkers!

GuanYin

Zulu wrote:

No offence - I've an open mind, but this sounds SO flimsy an argument, how can you expect anyone to accept that?

Actually its not quite as flimsy as you may think. Both psychological and neuroscience researchers have shown that the brain can and does filter out information depending on how the brain is primed (ie. the persons state of mind).

Psychologists have shown that people who are primed negatively on a certain subject are less likely to absorb information conflicting with their views if left unprompted. Backing this up is a nice piece of neuroscience research which showed that under similar experimental conditions, there is activity in the perception part of the brain but not as much activity associated with processing new information compared with those of and open or positive disposition to the challenge.

If you were to apply that here she might have a case.

Are you sure you weren't dreaming? ...are you really sure?

In fairness Zulu, this is a believers forum so this sort of response is a little jaded and naff. If you don't believe it, then ignore it

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

that's like saying we shouldn't ask questions on the christianity board syke

GuanYin

Mordeth wrote:

that's like saying we shouldn't ask questions on the christianity board syke

A troll?

Nice try, but ehh no.

I'm open to debate and critique, but "you imagined it" isn't really conduscive to either cos the debates tend to go like this-

10 User1: "You imagined it/were sleeping/are nuts/delete 20 all but applicable"
30 User2: "No I wasn't"
40 User1: "Yes you were"
50 User2: "No I wasn't"
60 User1: "Yes, you were"
70 For X= 1 to 10 do: Goto line 30
80 User2: "<insert flame/insult here>"
90 Enter Mod
100 Ban UserN where N =1,2
110 Close thread

Seeing as this serves no purpose other than to show I can't code and they don't believe each other, I must wholeheartedly insist that such debates be excluded from the forum and that only "interesting" debate take place here.

Besides, its in the charter.

Zulu

Well Skye - I wasn't intending on going down that road.

But either way, the title of the thread "Are ghosts all in the head" tends to open the topic for discussion from both believers and unbelievers alike.
I rearly tend to post here - being an unbeliever, but occasionally... Clicky ...good discussion/debate occurs.

Because I don't believe dosen't mean I'm not open minded.
In this case, some twilight stage between sleep and waking, people report seeing many things. Most times people are just having a vivid dream, perhaps other times they see things. What they see is another question.

Funkygreendogs

KatieK wrote:

My belief is that if someone doesnt believe or doesnt want to see a ghost they block that part of their mind, and never do. You may say this is a cop out, but I have a proven belief in ghosts etc myself, im not trying to convince anyone, its up to you what you believe. I have seen a ghost myself, woke up one night and he was standing in the middle of the bed. He was see through in true ghost style!, but I could make out every detail, down to the stubble on his chin. Scared the absolute s**t out of me!

Im not trying to say you were dreaming either, but you may have had a lucid dream, where people have really detailed dreams where they see people, it would be hard to tell the difference - http://members.aol.com/Aarenka/lucidintro.html
i know it says you are aware of the fact that you are dreaming, but you could sub-consiously know you are dreaming, and have a lucid dream without knowing since we cant access our sub-consious. I remember having a lucid dream once when i couldnt sleep and drifted off without knowing, the detail of your dreams is unbelievably scary, echos/shadows/details/texture all very real, but when i started to realise i was dreaming, thats when i started to get into a car that wasnt mine, lol, i got excited and woke up after what i believed to be 5/6mins which was in fact around 2/3 hours.

GuanYin

Zulu wrote:

Well Skye - I wasn't intending on going down that road.

But either way, the title of the thread "Are ghosts all in the head" tends to open the topic for discussion from both believers and unbelievers alike.
I rearly tend to post here - being an unbeliever, but occasionally... Clicky ...good discussion/debate occurs.

Because I don't believe dosen't mean I'm not open minded.
In this case, some twilight stage between sleep and waking, people report seeing many things. Most times people are just having a vivid dream, perhaps other times they see things. What they see is another question.

Ah ok, well it did look a bit like that, but my bad carry on.

As my girlfriend would say "Its not what you said, its the way you said it"

Oryx

I dont expect anyone in this forum to take what I say at face value. I have my beliefs because my experiences have proved to me without a doubt, and at this stage I know the difference between my dreams and other 'things'. I have experienced lucid dreaming too, its quite a trip! I like being challenged on this, because if people dont challenge psychic phenomena we could start believing in any old thing. I dont consider myself gullible or deluded, I challenge what I do every day, as psychic ablilty and mental illness are not too far apart! I am as skeptical as the next person. Its just when I see and get messages from someones (dead) relative and then can pick that person out in a photo its kinda convincing.

Funkygreendogs

KatieK wrote:

..... Its just when I see and get messages from someones (dead) relative and then can pick that person out in a photo its kinda convincing.

yeh well i guess i sorta know what you mean, some ppl are more sensitive to things than others, for example i can spot my friends sisters, mothers, grannys, dogs, friends, and their friends friends, from miles off in a distance even ppl whom ive only met once, maybe not even spoke to, and my friends are baffled most of the time as to how i do it, as they cant spot them from a few yards away, its the same with me finding things in the dark, no one else i know can do it , But what you say about getting messages from dead realatives .... well thats a different ball game altogether maybe your just more sensitive.

But i have to say i aggree totally with it being all in the head, not necessarly made up, its just we depend so much on our vision, ie we cannot believe things we havnt seen, but our minds are a much more powerful medium especially if they were being accessed directly, like outside sources planting the memories/sounds/sight directly into our head, whos to say we didnt actually experience it? well we did didnt we? it just we cannot prove it and we didnt "see" it like we see other things, like the telly or whatever. So in a way its in our heads.

GuanYin

KatieK wrote:

I dont expect anyone in this forum to take what I say at face value. I have my beliefs because my experiences have proved to me without a doubt, and at this stage I know the difference between my dreams and other 'things'. I have experienced lucid dreaming too, its quite a trip! I like being challenged on this, because if people dont challenge psychic phenomena we could start believing in any old thing. I dont consider myself gullible or deluded, I challenge what I do every day, as psychic ablilty and mental illness are not too far apart! I am as skeptical as the next person. Its just when I see and get messages from someones (dead) relative and then can pick that person out in a photo its kinda convincing.

Noone here is suggesting you are deluded or anything of the sort. I'm interested into how many of the forum users actually feel they have any sort of ESP and if anyone would be willing to try demonstrate it......

Oryx

Would love to hear from anyone else, but dont know how youd go about a doin a demo in boards- if i COULD pick next weeks lotto numbers, believe me id've done it by now

tj-music.com

The more spiritual the person the more he can pick up. I am pretty sure that once you are able to quieten your mind you are open for a number of different and new experiences and you actually can pick up energy sources such as the likes of dead people.

I had a number of encounters from 1990 up until just recently (although I don´t want to talk about it in here) and I am absolutely convinced that it is all real and that nothing happens without purpose.

Sometimes you just have the feeling that you´re not alone and even though you cant put your finger on it - you know there is something. Sometimes this "something" goes further and comes forward more openly.

To figure out what that all means seems to be the problem.

Blub2k4

I am healthily sceptical about spirits etc but at the same time I have shared a house with someone who had very strong abilities that they hated with a passion as they were scared by the tragedy that they regularly saw in dreams or waking hours.
I wrote here about two experiences that I had with them, unfortunately both threads have been cleaned out now, but condensed, I was present one time when the person was "possessed" sy something or other, apparently a badly beaten woman walked into the room and fell on top of her and that started about a 5 minute session of thrashing about where she looked like she was being strangled and all the noises and actions that go with it. The level of violence was too great that someone would have faked it, plus there was no reason to. The second experience was when the same girl reckoned she had information on a very high profile case, which is still unsolved for the family, but she knows a lot of detail on the case and what happened, I cant go into this as it is still a big thing and unsolved.
Third time was actually the first time she told me that she was psychic, her boyfriend was not yet home and she said that she preferred to wait until he was home to go upstairs, when I asked why I was told it was because of the nasty energy that always passed her on the stairs on the way up. When questioned she said that something regularly brushed passed her when she was climbing the last set of steps up to the attic conversion that was her room and it was not a nice feeling. This went on until the day that the guy next door fell down the top flight of stairs in the identical house next door and broke his neck ( he was an alcoholic, I assume he was drunk), she says that the energy stopped that day although we didn't find out about his death until a few days later. She seems to have been picking up future echoes.
Strange but true, I was a sceptic but I have seen and now believe, it is something you really have to experience yourself, and with a science background I was not easily convinced.
She used regularly tell us of things that she had premonitions about, a murder in Tallaght was something else, also a high profile case, she told us who did it before the news did

Zulu

tj-music.com wrote:

The more spiritual the person the more he can pick up. I am pretty sure that once you are able to quieten your mind you are open for a number of different and new experiences and you actually can pick up energy sources such as the likes of dead people.

I'm sure I'm picking you up wrong here; it's pretty presumptuous to assume you're more "spiritual" than others. I would consider myself quite spiritual, and often reflect/meditate, but I'm a long shot from psychic, or far from believing in ghosts.

Oryx

Zulu wrote:

I'm sure I'm picking you up wrong here; it's pretty presumptuous to assume you're more "spiritual" than others. I would consider myself quite spiritual, and often reflect/meditate, but I'm a long shot from psychic, or far from believing in ghosts.

Some people ARE more spiritual than others, youd have to agree with that surely? Not all spiritual people are psychic, or would choose to be, most psychics should have a spiritual aspect, comes with what you do. I dont think tj-music was being presumptuous, I agree that if you have a tendency towards psychic ability heightened spirituality can increase the ability.

Zulu

KatieK wrote:

Some people ARE more spiritual than others, youd have to agree with that surely? Not all spiritual people are psychic, or would choose to be, most psychics should have a spiritual aspect, comes with what you do. I dont think tj-music was being presumptuous, I agree that if you have a tendency towards psychic ability heightened spirituality can increase the ability.

I agree that some people are more spirtual than others.
On the other hand though, I would see it as presumpious though, to assume one is more spiritual on the back that the person has more "encounters".

Oryx

Zulu wrote:

I agree that some people are more spirtual than others.
On the other hand though, I would see it as presumpious though, to assume one is more spiritual on the back that the person has more "encounters".

Agree with that, but his point didnt come across that way to me.

solas

interesting discussion.
I personally don't equate being Psychic with being Spiritual, although I understand there is a common theme of "awareness" which runs through both.
I can understand and agree with Zulu in some respects that being psychic doesn;t make one entirely spiritual, many mediums and psychics have meglomaniac tendencies, (very un-spiritual characteristics) but I also understand katie's analysis that spirituality can open up an element of what is considered psychic awareness.
balance is the key.

solas

and to answer the originial question, I believe that ghosts are all in the head.
I don't mean to suggest that it is all a delusion, but illusion might be a better word.
Then again, some illusions work really well and create the desired effect.

Will try and explain what I mean....
We all live with this great illusion that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. But the sun doesn't rise and set anywhere, the earth revolves around the sun creating the illusion, via our perception and viewpoint, that it does.
This illusion doesn't negate the fact that the sun rising and setting is very real to us and is vital to our schematic's, it provides us with day and night, and the measurements we set our clocks by and yet from another perspective (the moon) things may seem very different indeed.

I'm not saying ghosts don't exist or that they aren't real, I think we only get to see a small part of a much bigger picture, but the illusion is enough.

SkepticOne

MrJoeSoap wrote:

My dad sternly believes that they are all in the mind, and because I have never seen one myself, and dont know of anyone who has seen one, I'd have to be inclined to agree.

But if you did see one, why would this make a difference? The ghost could still be in your head?

Obviously one way to test whether ghosts are only in the head would be to carry around some recording equipment such as a camera, then whenever you saw (or thought you saw) a ghost, you would attempt to take picture. If the picture resembled what you saw you would be a certain way along the road to answering the question.

It could be argued that seeing a ghost involves mechanisms or 'energies' that can't be captured by cameras or other devices but only by humans (or maybe just those sensitive to certain phenomena). In this case, it would be necessary to have a group of such people attempt to observe a ghost but only describe what they saw independently of one another. Afterwards the descriptions could be compared to see if they are describing the same thing.

If these descriptions varied or were simply vague ("I sensed a 'presence'"), then this would not help us. However, if each of the observers saw the same very specific thing, for example a skull floating about 7 feet off the ground, then we would be progressing towards establishing the objective existence of such phenomena.

But I think, for many people, it is enough that ghosts exist for them. It doesn't matter if ghosts have an 'objective' existance. Why does it matter? I think it is fairly natural for people to interpret a sufficiently strong impression of something as reality even if it can't be independently verified.

Schnozzberries

i do believe in ghosts...i think that they are like spirts or w/e on like a vibration level like a foot higher than us...thats why they usually look like theyre floating if you see them(sorry that i cant explain myself too well)...also since they are on that vibration level thing or w/e not all of them see us and can communicate with us just like not all humans can see or communicate with them...I have seen a spirit once...and my brother saw the same one...i have felt that spirit many times and it always gives the same vibes...i have felt other spirits too...i know many ppl who have seen spirits...i strongly belive in ghosts only because of pesonal experiences ... but hey i guess i could be crazzy and seeing stuff...(actually i am crazy but not the hallucinating kind oh well)

homerhop

I witnessed an old fashioned door bell (the type that had a tbar you turn to make it ring) which had been seized solid ring constantly on the night the owner of the house died.I happened to be staying in a room and was looking straight out at the door that had this bell.There was two long panes of glass in the door and there was definately nobody outside.So yes I definately beleive!