[articles] Politicians go into hiding after Van Gogh Murder

mike65

You would'nt cite the Netherlands as the country most likely to become an Islam v West powerdeg but....

http://www.portervillerecorder.com/articles/2004/11/05/ap/entertainment/d865vdno0.txt

Letter on Corpse Threatens Dutch Official

By ANTHONY DEUTSCH

THE HAGUE, Netherlands - The government vowed tough measures Friday against what a leading politician called "the arrival of jihad in the Netherlands" after a death threat to a Dutch lawmaker was found pinned with a knife to the body of a slain filmmaker by his radical Islamic attacker.

A five-page letter released Thursday night by the justice minister forced political leaders _ including Amsterdam's Jewish mayor and members of parliament _ to take on bodyguards.



The document, stuck to the body of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was titled "An open Letter to (Aayan) Hirsi Ali," referring to a Somali-born member of parliament. She had scripted Van Gogh's latest film, "Submission," which criticized the treatment of women under Islam.

"Since your arrival in the political arena in the Netherlands you have been constantly busy terrorizing Muslims with your statements," the letter read. "You are not the first and not the last who has joined the crusade against Islam."

Hirsi Ali, who calls herself an ex-Muslim, has gone into hiding.

The letter also asserted: "It is a fact that Dutch politics is dominated by many Jews."

"What do you think of the fact that there is a Jew in power in Amsterdam?" it said, referring to Amsterdam's Mayor Job Cohen.

Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm agreed with comments by other politicians who called Van Gogh's murder a declaration of Islamic holy war.

"We are not going to tolerate this. We are going to ratchet up the fight against this sort of terrorism," he said. "The increase in radicalization is worse than we had thought."

Among measures under consideration is an emergency law to enable authorities to revoke the Dutch nationality of dual citizens suspected of terrorist activity so that they can be deported.

Zalm said the intelligence service, which has already expanded since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States, would receive more funding to help it monitor potential terrorist recruits.

The suspected killer in the Van Gogh case, a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan national, was arraigned on six terrorism-related charges.

Van Gogh, a distant relative of the famous 19th-century Dutch painter, was shot and stabbed to death Tuesday while cycling down an Amsterdam street. The provocative social commentator and author, whose throat was slashed in the attack, will be cremated Tuesday in a public service.

The murder is testing already strained relations between the ethnic Dutch population and the Muslim community. There are about 300,000 Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands out of a population of 16 million. Zalm said talks were ongoing with Muslim groups over how to avoid a violent backlash against Muslims.

Arsonists are believed to have set fire to a mosque in the central Dutch city of Utrecht, police spokesman Peter Keijzers said. There were no reports of injuries.

Jozias van Aartsen, parliamentary speaker for the right-wing free market VVD party, the second-largest party in the government of Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende, issued a statement that called Van Gogh's slaying tantamount to a declaration of war.

"The jihad has come to the Netherlands and a small group of jihadist terrorists is attacking the principles of our country," he said. "I hope the Netherlands will now move beyond denial and do what is fitting in a democracy; take action.

"These people don't want to change our society, they want to destroy it," he said.

The threat left by Van Gogh's killer carries the ideology of a fundamentalist movement, Takfir wal Hijra or "Repentance and Flight," which advocates isolation from what it calls the sinful world, Dutch media reported.

The letter, in Dutch and Arabic, predicts the downfall of the "infidel enemies of Islam" in Europe, including the Netherlands, and the United States.

"I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down," it said.

Chief prosecutor Leo de Wit said the suspected killer, identified only as Mohammed B., faces at least six terrorism-related counts, including charges of murder and "participating in a criminal organization with terrorist characteristics."

It was the first time authorities characterized the slaying as a terrorist act.

The suspect, wounded in the leg in a shootout with police, has refused to talk to investigators. He was arrested with a note in his pocket titled "Drenched in Blood."

He also is charged with attempted murder of a police officer and bystander, illegal possession of a firearm, and conspiring to murder others, including Hirsi Ali.

Authorities arrested eight other suspects and are looking into possible links between the suspects and foreign terrorist groups.

Two suspects were released, De Wit said Friday. Six will be charged with conspiring to commit murder, he said.

Prosecutors said all are Islamic radicals of North African ancestry. Four also were arrested Oct. 23 on suspicion of plotting a terrorist attack but were released for lack of evidence. Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament the four had contacts with a suspect in last year's Casablanca bombings.

Since the Sept. 11 attacks, the Dutch secret service has repeatedly warned the Netherlands could be a target. It is shadowing 150 extremists and has warned that groups are recruiting Muslim immigrant youths.

http://www.harktheherald.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=39369&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

A five-page letter released Thursday night by the justice minister forced political leaders -- including Amsterdam's Jewish mayor and members of parliament -- to take on bodyguards. The document, stuck to the body of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was titled "An open Letter to (Aayan) Hirsi Ali," referring to a Somali-born member of parliament. She had scripted Van Gogh's latest film, "Submission," which criticized the treatment of women under Islam.

"Since your arrival in the political arena in the Netherlands you have been constantly busy terrorizing Muslims with your statements," the letter read. "You are not the first and not the last who has joined the crusade against Islam."

Hirsi Ali, who calls herself an ex-Muslim, has gone into hiding.

The letter also asserted: "It is a fact that Dutch politics is dominated by many Jews."

"What do you think of the fact that there is a Jew in power in Amsterdam?" it said, referring to Amsterdam's Mayor Job Cohen.

Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm agreed with comments by other politicians who called Van Gogh's murder a declaration of Islamic holy war.

"We are not going to tolerate this. We are going to ratchet up the fight against this sort of terrorism," he said. "The increase in radicalization is worse than we had thought."

Mike.

BattleBoar

mike65 wrote:

You would'nt cite the Netherlands as the country most likely to become an Islam v West powerdeg but....
Mike.

Beliebe it or not, I actually would have. I think demographic projections have Muslims becoming the majority in most of western Europe in a few decades. www.forbes.com/global/2004/0607/013_print.html

I know I read somewhere (although I cant find the link) that the Netherlands is projected to be the first western European power to fall victim, somewhere around 2025 if nothing is done to curtail the spread. Regardless, the next 20-30 years will see a huge conflict between East and West developing in Western Europe, and the Dutch are at the tip of the spear, so to speak.

Frank Grimes

BattleBoar wrote:

I know I read somewhere (although I cant find the link) that the Netherlands is projected to be the first western European power to fall victim, somewhere around 2025 if nothing is done to curtail the spread.

It's not a disease.
What do you suggest? Selective immigration policies? (I'm sure certain posters here would favour that)
Or else banning conversion/expelling converts? A good fraction of the increased Muslim population in the west is made up of converts, not just immigrants.
Maybe education in both communites would dispell a lot of myths and prejudices held on both sides about one another.
Or else we can just continue look at "Islam" as one big threat and nothing will change.

OfflerCrocGod

I look at all religions as diseases - Europe has tackled and conquered Christianity and it will do the same with Islam. All religions will die, Science and Progress will crush them in time. HEIL!

bonkey

BattleBoar wrote:

I think demographic projections have Muslims becoming the majority in most of western Europe in a few decades

Most of the demographics I've seen which show that, also would show the Muslims having in excess of 100% of the population within a century.

Thats some powderkeg.

jc

daveirl

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Frank Grimes

daveirl wrote:

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Honour killings and forced marriage have nothing to do with Islam (hard line or otherwise), they're cultural/tribal "pratices" in certain areas of certain countries.

Does it not enter your head that Islam is a threat

No, it does not. The religion itself is no more a threat than Christianity or any other religion. You can't judge an entire religion or by that matter an entire group of people by the actions of a minority within that community.

daveirl

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Frank Grimes

daveirl wrote:

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I know what punishments Sharia laws prescribes for adultery. What you said was nothing to do with adultery.
And it's not just modern Islamic scholars that say it's wrong, honour killings have nothing to do with Islam and never have.

See that last bit, adultery is punishable by stoning. Fair enough that's not exactly Honour killing since that's when the family takes it into their own hands, but if an Islamic state cannot be created in the region it's fair to assume that those wishing to adhere to Sharia Law will commit Honour Killings.

People are not encouraged to be judge, jury and executioner either. Stop trying to rationalise honour killings with the religion because it's nothing to do with the religion itself.

daveirl

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Frank Grimes

daveirl wrote:

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By all accounts, the people who commit "honour" killings think that the actual killing will restore the honour that has been lost by their family as a result of the actions of the daughter/sister/cousin etc.
Here's one link
Also. there's only certain circumstances that the death penalty can be applied under Sharia and you have get a trial at least. Families who do this, even if they believe they are religiously justified are in the wrong.
Countries with the death penalty have execution as a punishment - it doesn't mean people can go about legally implimenting justice by themselves.

daveirl

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BattleBoar

bonkey wrote:

Most of the demographics I've seen which show that, also would show the Muslims having in excess of 100% of the population within a century.

Thats some powderkeg.

jc

If you noticed, I did provide a link for that information. I'm not just pulling demographic trends out of my a$$ here. Now do most experts actually make predictions that Muslims will become a majority in Western Europe say by 2050? No. But it's because they predict a decrease in the influx and population growth, not because you wouldn't get that result if you extrapolated current data.

bonkey

BattleBoar wrote:

If you noticed, I did provide a link for that information. I'm not just pulling demographic trends out of my a$$ here.

Yes, I did see the link. Here's the relevant bit of it :

In a few decades, given current trends, Muslims will be the majority population in much of western Europe.

It goes on to explain what those current trends are (decreasing birth-rate in Europe, increasing immigration), but then completely skips over explaining what reasons we have to believe that these current trends will continue unchanged.

Now do most experts actually make predictions that Muslims will become a majority in Western Europe say by 2050? No. But it's because they predict a decrease in the influx and population growth, not because you wouldn't get that result if you extrapolated current data.

Thats exactly my point.

If you extrapolate current data, you get a Muslim majority in the next 50 years, and - if you continue the extrapolation - an almost-entirely Muslim (or > 100% Muslim, if you use really bad extrapolation models which many do as they are more sensational) population not too long afterwards. But thats just not realistic...as you say, experts predict changing trends which will mean that the extrapolation of current trends doesn't hold water.

No-one is going to be able to sell fear off a model which says "if things don't change, Europe will be somewhere between 95% and 120% Muslim in a century", because anyone seeing such figures will laugh. Instead, you take the same model, apply it to a shorter time-scale and say "if things don't change, Europe will have a Muslim Majority in half a century". Now you've got something far scarier because it sounds more plausible, but its the same model and so should be just as suspect.

When I see an article which presents such figures as well as a reason for believing that things won't change, and that such a progression is actually socio-economically viable, then I'll start lending it credence. Until then, I honestly just see it as scaremongering, and side with teh experts who dismiss it on the grounds that they don't believe current trends will continue.

And why is it not fair to assume that Islamics in Europe who wish to practice Sharia law won't take things into their own hands and commit honour killings.

It might sound trite, but its not fair because its a violation of a number of precepts which are central to our entire legal system. Its the same reason we don't lock people up for being members of any number of other groups which we find distasteful.

Not only that, but I would point out that if anyone looks at the Koran and picks out the extremist bits to argue along the lines of "look, this shows that everyone following any flavour if Islam is - at heart - barbarous, not interested in human rights, and a threat to the continuation of our way of life" then I would suggest that such people should re-read the Bible, and take its most extreme messages as equal indications of the barbarity of all Christians.

jc

daveirl

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bonkey

daveirl wrote:

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Really? So every time CNN or someone runs an article about the latest case where this comes up, and less-extremist Muslim clerics are trotted out to explain how this is notwhat many Muslims believe in, nor subscribe to....thats all made up?

and is practiced widely.

Practiced widely? Really?

Can you offer any data to show the number of incidents where stoning has been carried out in recent years? Maybe put it in terms of population-size of the regions where it has happened, and show that the system/quality of government/law enforcement is also comparable

Or is this just an assumption because a relatively small number of cases in nations have grabbed massive headline attention over the past number of years where people have been sentenced, but where that sentence is not ultimately carried out[/i]. And lets not forget the news reports of rumours and allegations that this si far more widespread....tehy shouldn't be ignored either. Obviously when they actually find the proof, its not worth really transmitting, cause people were already told it might be happening....right?

And of course, the fact that those nations you mention have nothing like the socio-economic background of Western Europe should also be entirely ignored.

Its entirely co-incidental that what you describe as a barbaric practice is more common in the less-developed nations, where democracy has not ever taken significant hold, where people do not live with a high quality of life, good education, etc. etc. Nope - thats all irrelevant, and if those people ever come into such an environment, obviously it is their way of life which will prevail...

I mean.... you see Christian Fundamentalism as a step "backward", but
then argue that what brought Christianity "forward" is exactly what you think should be denied to the Muslims seeking access to Europe....bcause they couldn't be "brought forward" like Christians were...nope...they're a threat because they're not where we are....

jc

BattleBoar

bonkey wrote:

And of course, the fact that those nations you mention have nothing like the socio-economic background of Western Europe should also be entirely ignored.

Its entirely co-incidental that what you describe as a barbaric practice is more common in the less-developed nations, where democracy has not ever taken significant hold, where people do not live with a high quality of life, good education, etc. etc. Nope - thats all irrelevant, and if those people ever come into such an environment, obviously it is their way of life which will prevail...jc

Would you really argue that those things (less developed & being Islamic) are mutually exclusive? Don't forget, Babylon was once one of the center of science and culture in the entire world, and the Egyptians built the Pyramids (among other accomplishments of course). These were once great civilizations. Islamic society as a whole has degraded greatly from that point.

On another note, the Dutch are once again at the tip of the spear, so to speak: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1346191,00.html

Frank Grimes

BattleBoar wrote:

These were once great civilizations. Islamic society as a whole has degraded greatly from that point.

The Babylonians and the Eygptians that built the pyramids were not Muslims.
Look at Arab Islamic socities from roughly 700AD - 1300AD or the Ottoman empire for Islamic cultural achivements etc.

bonkey

BattleBoar wrote:

Would you really argue that those things (less developed & being Islamic) are mutually exclusive?

In the modern context, yes.

I'm only looking at the modern context (which I should have made clear). Why? Because a lot of the things that are pointed to as the oppression/barbarity of Islam are things that we had aplenty in western society until relatively recently.

jc

BattleBoar

Frank Grimes wrote:

The Babylonians and the Eygptians that built the pyramids were not Muslims.
Look at Arab Islamic socities from roughly 700AD - 1300AD or the Ottoman empire for Islamic cultural achivements etc.

Thank you for making my point. They were great civilizations before Islam.

Frank Grimes

BattleBoar wrote:

Thank you for making my point. They were great civilizations before Islam.

You really should read up on the subject as you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
Babylon was long gone as a civilization before Islam arrived in that part of the world, and the Pharoes who built the pyramids also disappeared long before the 7th or 8th century AD.

BattleBoar

Frank Grimes wrote:

You really should read up on the subject as you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
Babylon was long gone as a civilization before Islam arrived in that part of the world, and the Pharoes who built the pyramids also disappeared long before the 7th or 8th century AD.

Isn't that exactly what I said? :rolleyes:

Frank Grimes

BattleBoar wrote:

Isn't that exactly what I said? :rolleyes:

Nice try.

BattleBoar

Frank Grimes wrote:

Nice try.

Funny, bonkey seems to have had no trouble interpreting my original post.

Frank Grimes

BattleBoar wrote:

Funny, bonkey seems to have had no trouble interpreting my original post.

Why don't you explain then why you used them as examples of Islamic civilizations when you knew they weren't Islamic civilizations?
EDIT: If you're trying to imply that Islam was responsible for their decline you are also wrong. Again, read up on these civilizations.

bonkey

BattleBoar wrote:

Thank you for making my point. They were great civilizations before Islam.

And Rome was a great civiliastion before Christianity. It still has nothing to do with the fact that if you look at the modern world today, the developed western nations are Christian, and the Islamic nations are predominantly in areas which have been exploited and subjugated (predominantly by Chrisitians) ever since we got the upper hand on them.

Christians stunted their development, and now look down on them as being somehow "backward" or barbaric because they still have beliefs/practices which we abandoned our equivalent of somewhere down the road.

Now maybe its just me...I just don't see that as coincidental.

jc

pickarooney

The fun is starting now. Someone blew up a Muslim school down the road this morning. Don't have an English link, sorry.

bonkey

Ah, but surely thats ok? Obviously the Muslim's deserved it, and it will serve as further proof of how they are barbaric compared to the us peace-loving Europeans....

I mean...whoever blew it up was probably Islamic themselves, just trying to fool us into pitying them, or maybe it was an internal Islamic power struggle. After all, we enlightened Europeans are above all of that behaviour...

jc

pickarooney

Probably the Chechens, those lovable rogues.

daveirl

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unkel

BattleBoar wrote:

I know I read somewhere (although I cant find the link) that the Netherlands is projected to be the first western European power to fall victim, somewhere around 2025

It's not a century from now, neither is it a few decades. The majority of secondary school children in Amsterdam and Rotterdam are muslim. The most popular name for a new born boy in those cities has been Mohammed for many years

BTW Theo van Gogh was shot about 15-20 times. He was then virtually decapitated (while still alive). Finally the aforementioned note was stuck to his body by means of a knife being inserted into his heart. The murderer took his time and was in no hurry to leave the scene

pickarooney

unkel wrote:

It's not a century from now, neither is it a few decades. The majority of secondary school children in Amsterdam and Rotterdam are muslim. The most popular name for a new born boy in those cities has been Mohammed for many years

Rubbish, barely 5% of Dutch inhabitants are Muslim. Unless you do your surveys in Islamic schools.

bonkey

daveirl wrote:

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Apologies daveirl...it wasn't really targetted at you...I just didn't make that clear, and this was probably the wrong thread to pick that particular fight....

All I'm asking is that there is a proactive policy of integration.

I'd settle for any policy that was actually upheld for a start...

You can't just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that there isn't a problem.

Lordy no. There most certainly are problems (not just one) and they most certainly should be dealt wth. But its the problems, and not the symptoms that I'd like to see addressed, and I'm generally not convinced that most of today's kneejerkist approaches to "fixing problems" fix anything or even target problems.

Why do you automatically assume that we'll all integrate into a peaceful multi-cultural society?

I don't. I believe that this should be our goal, for a variety of reasons....which are most probably the work of another topic.

jc

pork99

A muslim majority in Europe - assuming there is no change in the culture of Islam would mean Europe becoming part of the 3rd World. Europe's prosperity is very dependent on being a liberal secular society.

If you want a history lesson - Get Tolerant - Get Rich

There's no doubt that Europe needs immigrants but do they all have to be from Muslim countries? Wouldn't it be fairer on everyone to control immgration so there is a healthy mixture of peoples and cultures coming in? There must be 10s of millions of people in Eastern Europe, non-Muslim Africa, Latin America, India and China who would be delighted to migrate to European countries. Immigrants from these backgrounds should integrate better into our society and culture - and that doesn't mean people from Muslim countries wouldn't get their chances also.

Frank Grimes

pork99 wrote:

Wouldn't it be fairer on everyone to control immgration so there is a healthy mixture of peoples and cultures coming in?

How is it unfair at the moment?

pork99

Frank Grimes wrote:

How is it unfair at the moment?

maybe more chaotic than unfair

Frank Grimes

pork99 wrote:

maybe more chaotic than unfair

Ok, how is it more chaotic at the moment then?
Also, a lot of the Muslim population in the West is being made up now of converts and the children of immigrants etc. so the "problem" isn't soley with immigrants.

OfflerCrocGod

I afto agree with Frank Grimes here in that Muslims* are a threat to Europe, our society and our way of life. We should be letting in more Latin-Americans, Chinese and Indians. Fewer religious loony-toons, more sane people open to intergration into European society. You don't like the West, you don't agree with the West, you don't support the West, you wish to subvert the West. Well, that's fine by me but.....
**** OFF BACK TO YOUR OWN ****ING COUNTRY THEN
You disagree with our lifestyles? You can disagree back in Algeria or whatever ****hole country you crawled out of. Bye, Bye, now. Don't send us a postcard when you get there. Makes sense to me, right Frank Grimes??


*Any and all religions, Muslims are the just an example.

Frank Grimes

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Makes sense to me, right Frank Grimes??

I have not said anywhere that I believe Muslims are a threat, what on earth are you talking about?

swiss

I have not said anywhere that I believe Muslims are a threat, what on earth are you talking about?

I suspect he was being facetious. Otherwise he's just trolling.

On a personal note, I can only see these developments as leading to a furthur polarisation between the Arab and non-Arab world. Yes, there are Christian as well as Islamic fundamentalists, and I find both equally disturbing and objectionable. However at the moment the Islamic fundamentalist movement appears to have garnered some strength and is consequently more visible than it's Christian counterpart. This is due in no small measure to US involvement in Iraq, but that's a different debate.

The major issue facing countries like the Netherlands is finding an effective manner of dealing with the threat such radicals present without harming the culture of tolerance and openness for which they are so famous. However it is darkly ironic that such an open and liberal society could foster such intolerance and conservative views as a direct result of that tolerance.

My view is that anyone who attempts to change the culture or laws of the Netherlands should do so only within the democratic and legal confines of that society. Since it was the Islamic element who threatened this democracy in such a way, with contempt for the democratic and legal process, their goals and aims should not be entertained. All necessary measures in accordance within those confines should be taken to rally against these attempts to destabilise Dutch society.

gandalf

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

I afto agree with Frank Grimes here in that Muslims* are a threat to Europe, our society and our way of life. We should be letting in more Latin-Americans, Chinese and Indians. Fewer religious loony-toons, more sane people open to intergration into European society. You don't like the West, you don't agree with the West, you don't support the West, you wish to subvert the West. Well, that's fine by me but.....
**** OFF BACK TO YOUR OWN ****ING COUNTRY THEN
You disagree with our lifestyles? You can disagree back in Algeria or whatever ****hole country you crawled out of. Bye, Bye, now. Don't send us a postcard when you get there. Makes sense to me, right Frank Grimes??


*Any and all religions, Muslims are the just an example.

I hope to god for your sake you are taking the p!ss with these comments. You have until this evening to explain them better before I ban you for racism. Lumping all Muslims in with fundamentalists is like saying all Americans are Warmongers because of the neo-cons.

Don't mess with me today I am at home dying with the flu !

Frank Grimes

Going to explain those comments OfflerCrocGod?

daveirl

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Sand

However at the moment the Islamic fundamentalist movement appears to have garnered some strength and is consequently more visible than it's Christian counterpart.

Theres also the actual weakness of fundamentalist christianity. American evangilism, which is what most people mean when refering to fundamentalist christians by and large have toned down their "fire and brimstone" nature. Stuff like Christian rock is just a knockoff of regular music. There are Christian theme parks, the biggest ranks just behind the two Disney Lands. If "christianity" is more visible and more invoked its because its weaker, diluted and abandoning core values to attempt to sell the word to the masses. This is actually demonstrated by the Christian Right getting into politics - back in the 60s they were apolitical, believing they had no religious obligation to do anything other than preach the word and leave the sinners to their fiery imolation in the afterlife.

I can slag off Christianity because its so weak - I can go on national TV and say the whole bible is a load of crap and the Pope is a child molester and sleep quite soundly in my bed. As poor old Theo found out, and as Salman Rushdie has also found out you cant say similar things about the Islamic faith without living in fear for the rest of your life. And of course while it is popular to criticise the Christian faiths and institutions it is not acceptable to criticise the Islamic faith or institutions - thats racism.

However it is darkly ironic that such an open and liberal society could foster such intolerance and conservative views as a direct result of that tolerance.

Its not actually. Bushs comments that Al Qaida hate the US for their freedoms is often sneered at. Obviously, Al Qaida hate the US for the same reason arts students hate them.

But its not especially wrong - one of the philisophical fathers of modern militant Islam was an Egyptian, Sayed Qutb who wrote a hugely influential work on the Koran whilst living in the USA between 1948 and 1951. He was intensely offended by the immoral behaviour of Americans in general and their women in particular, in dance halls for example.

Many of these immigrants are coming from patriarchal, chauvinistic cultures where freedoms we take for granted are either unheard of or viewed in a bad light - we discuss whether its okay to kill unborn children at 6 weeks or 7 weeks whilst drinking alcohol with women were not related to in our company; thats not a common experience in Saudia Arabia where women arent even allowed to drive. Throw in a language barrier and youve the perfect recipe for culture shock, and the retreat to familiar or even fundamentalist values that help them explain the world theyve been thrown into even if its only in negative terms - actually especially if its in negative terms because this helps breed a sense of superiority which we all like.

We shouldnt be surprised that a highly secular/immoral society can be tough for people brought up in other cultures to adjust to. Think how easily would you adjust to a society where the appropriate thing to do with a woman who slept with another man was to stone her? Not only accept it should be done, but actually help out with the stoning yourself?

Also, a lot of the Muslim population in the West is being made up now of converts and the children of immigrants etc. so the "problem" isn't soley with immigrants.

Thats the positive thing - The Islamic faith isnt irreconcilable with the modern world. There are female immans in China for example ( they have survived the Saudi sponsored Wahhibi kulturkamp because the Chinese refuse to allow any foreign inteference with anything in their country ). Most of the negative things that have been assigned to the Islamic faith are actually more to do with the local culture than the religion itself, and that cultures *interpretations* of hadith.

As such Muslims born in Europe, who know only the European culture, are quite likely to accept it without any real difficulties assuming that culture accepts them. Thats the kicker because if the culture doesnt, or if muslim immigrants become marginalised youll end up with Ballymun breeding fanatical radicals who reject the culture thats marginalised them, which is perfectly understandable.

And theres no Muslim institutions, like the Catholic Church, that can crack down on extremists and rein them in to the party line. The Islamic faith is rather anarchic - a Pakistani taxi driver in New York has as much right to issue a fatwa against a herectic as Osama bin Laden or Sistani. With fanatics out there willing to kill people they will are apostates, this can terrorise the moderates. This has already happened across the Arab world where even the moderates have to couch themselves in appropriate language or fear being murdered. This has to be prevented in Europe somehow, though its difficult to see how.

Lumping all Muslims in with fundamentalists is like saying all Americans are Warmongers because of the neo-cons.

Heh, we all know that would never happen.

OfflerCrocGod

gandalf wrote:

I hope to god for your sake you are taking the p!ss

Of course I was! I was saying the total opposite of what Frank Grimes was saying and I said I agreed with him! I though putting one of these would have spoilt the effect. I was voicing an extreme form of BattleBoars thoughs and yet I was saying I agreed with Frank who was arguing against BattleBoar.

It's just going to take time before the Middle-East and Islamic society catch-up with Europe and the rest of the West. Europe once had the inquisition and in Spain it only stopped in 1834 so I think the Islamic world just needs time to mature and progress. Europe didn't just move from the collapse of the Roman Empire to the Renaissance straight to the Industrial Revolution. The church was just as powerful a force in Europe as Islam is in the Middle-East right now. Now look at the church! it doesn't have the power to find it's own ass with a map. In 200 years time it will be the same with Islam.

por

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Of course I was! I was saying the total opposite of what Frank Grimes was saying and I said I agreed with him! I though putting one of these would have spoilt the effect. I was voicing an extreme form of BattleBoars thoughs and yet I was saying I agreed with Frank who was arguing against BattleBoar.

It's just going to take time before the Middle-East and Islamic society catch-up with Europe and the rest of the West. Europe once had the inquisition and in Spain it only stopped in 1834 so I think the Islamic world just needs time to mature and progress. Europe didn't just move from the collapse of the Roman Empire to the Renaissance straight to the Industrial Revolution. The church was just as powerful a force in Europe as Islam is in the Middle-East right now. Now look at the church! it doesn't have the power to find it's own ass with a map. In 200 years time it will be the same with Islam.

I agree, seeing as Islam dates from approx 500AD it is 500 years behind Christanity in terms of maturity.

ionapaul

por wrote:

I agree, seeing as Islam dates from approx 500AD it is 500 years behind Christanity in terms of maturity.

In that case Christianity is a good long way behind Buddism, and both are FAAAAAAAAARRRR behind Hinduism in terms of maturity!
I don't you can argue that religions progress and become more mature over time in the same way humans do (or are supposed to!)

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

gandalf

Who says they need to catch up at one stage they were ahead of us in Christian Europe. Heres good article from David McWilliams about what has gone wrong with the Islamic world.

Article here.

Basically what McWilliams is saying in the article is that Religion and Oil are holding the Middle Eastern countries back and after reading it I agree with him. The Elite classes that have control of the oil wealth are lazy and have no motivation to take risks or change the status quo.

Lennoxschips

Hi, just seen this thread.

I am currently living in the Netherlands, and have for 12 years now.

As far as I can see the tensions in the society at the moment are down to both sides, and people blaming it on Islamic culture are not looking at the full picture.

The Netherlands native whites have never been the world's most accepting people when it comes to race relations. They have a very dodgy record with regards to World War II (the survival rate for Dutch Jews was the lowest in Europe, yes, lower than Germany). Racism has never really been taboo in Dutch society - Santa's helpers here are black men (called Black Piet). When Santa comes, grown men and women all over the country put on black make up, paint their lips bright red and wear big afro's. The Dutch word for a black person is "neger." The nation has yet to see the offensiveness of any of this.

I'm not saying that the Dutch are to blame for the problems at the moment, both sides are to blame. But the right wing government, which is coming up with all sorts of strange ideas has not helped. (Some ideas include: banning people from marrying non-EU citizens, deporting immigrant families that have lived here for up to 10 years with their Dutch born children (this has been done) and suggesting that immigrants wear special colour-coded badges to show how integrated they are within Dutch society) The Dutch media is also openly racist. Second and even third generation immigrants, born and bred in the Netherlands, who speak Dutch as their native language, are referred to on television as "Moroccans" and "Turks."

Muslims in the Netherlands have been stigmatised and discriminated for 30 years. They came in as immigrants and replaced the Dutch working class. The current uprising is coming mostly from second and third generation immigrants - Dutch people. So I would conclude that the problems in the Netherlands at the moment are an inherent problem of Dutch society, caused by the massive inequalities between the working classes and the elite classes. That the working and elite classes are of a different race unfortunately only adds fuel to the fire, but it is not the crux of the problem.