For all the Pitt Bulls

arybvtcw0eolkf · 07-06-2009 4:55pm

cloudy day wrote: »

on the rare occasion he fought with other dog's, well there was no stopping it. Jaws would have to be prised apart.

Prised apart, why is that?.

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bushy... · 07-06-2009 4:59pm

Saanvi Eager Gunrunning wrote: »

Prised apart, why is that?.

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In that story - muppet owner ?

They're among the best dogs ever

cloudy day · 07-06-2009 7:17pm

bushy... wrote: »

In that story - muppet owner ?

They're among the best dogs ever

Is that your attitude. Muppet owner. well that's a great defence for these dogs that we are being told are kind gentle sweet pets that wouldn't hurt a thing !

So these dogs do need specialist handling,training etc, and if that's the case they can hardly be classed as suitable family pets if your attitude is someone who owns one is a muppet !!!

Staff's have changed in appearance greatly over the last 30 yrs. Today they appear more square headed. They were very common and loads of people had them, as family pets. NOT fighting dogs and not trained for fighting or physical comp's.

Ye guys being the experts I'm sure you've heard of the term lock-jaw with staffs and boxers. Staffs have such a huge muscle mass either side of their mouth. This is where they get the ability to bite and hold and shake, is it not.

They can jump and hold on to pretty much anything in mid air and just swing there shaking off it.

Occasionally, as can happen with all dogs, there would be a fight and staffs would not let go. Therefore the jaws would have to be prised apart to get them off.

Seen footage of Pitts do the same to people when they have attacked them.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 08-06-2009 12:38am

cloudy day wrote: »

Is that your attitude. Muppet owner. well that's a great defence for these dogs that we are being told are kind gentle sweet pets that wouldn't hurt a thing !

So these dogs do need specialist handling,training etc, and if that's the case they can hardly be classed as suitable family pets if your attitude is someone who owns one is a muppet !!!

Staff's have changed in appearance greatly over the last 30 yrs. Today they appear more square headed. They were very common and loads of people had them, as family pets. NOT fighting dogs and not trained for fighting or physical comp's.

Ye guys being the experts I'm sure you've heard of the term lock-jaw with staffs and boxers. Staffs have such a huge muscle mass either side of their mouth. This is where they get the ability to bite and hold and shake, is it not.

They can jump and hold on to pretty much anything in mid air and just swing there shaking off it.

Occasionally, as can happen with all dogs, there would be a fight and staffs would not let go. Therefore the jaws would have to be prised apart to get them off.

Seen footage of Pitts do the same to people when they have attacked them.

Apart from your word on this, you have evidence you can provide us with - re. this "lock jaw" mechanism etc?.

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cloudy day · 08-06-2009 1:31am

Makikoma

What is it that's bugging you about this lock jaw thing then. Have you never heard the term.

MogwaiFearSatan · 08-06-2009 2:39pm

cloudy day wrote: »

Makikoma

What is it that's bugging you about this lock jaw thing then. Have you never The use of lock jaw to refer to pit bulls is a misnomer and its the incorrect use of it that frustrates owners so much. Yes the dogs can hang from a tree and support their own body weight by their mouths, all dogs can. Everything dog has the more or less same bite strength ratio compared to their size & weight.
For you to suggest that only terrier dogs have this ability shows little forethought in your comments and lack of knowledge on the subject of dogs.

<snip>
Dr. I Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data." Furthermore, Dr. Brisbin states, "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."
</snip>

cloudy day · 08-06-2009 4:58pm

MogwaiFearSatan wrote: »

cloudy day wrote: »

Makikoma

What is it that's bugging you about this lock jaw thing then. Have you never The use of lock jaw to refer to pit bulls is a misnomer and its the incorrect use of it that frustrates owners so much. Yes the dogs can hang from a tree and support their own body weight by their mouths, all dogs can. Everything dog has the more or less same bite strength ratio compared to their size & weight.
For you to suggest that only terrier dogs have this ability shows little forethought in your comments and lack of knowledge on the subject of dogs.

<snip>
Dr. I Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data." Furthermore, Dr. Brisbin states, "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."
</snip>

If you read through the threads, I made the comment in reference to Staffordshire Bull Terriers.

As that was the common term in the day as a description of the staffs in relation to their design, that is grab, lock, hold and shake. It is their immense jaw power that enables them to do this. This is specifically why they were designed. That is why there were called Bull terriers. Correct ?

Terriers is a term which includes a multitude of breeds

Based on public opinion it would seem it is exactly their size, weight and power they posess that gives them a bad name, combined with the fact they have been bred to be used as fighting dogs and the reported attacks on people.

However as I have stated I do not own or "train" Pitbulls, and I'm not given to spending hours searching for scientific data to give support to either side of the arguement.

It's a public discussion forum where everyone can discuss given topics on dogs.

pitty lover · 08-06-2009 9:13pm

wow this old topic got fairly heated but something really pissed me off there there is NO SUCH THING AS LOCKJAW that is just plain ignorance saying such a thing!!! its **** like that, that makes people more afraid because not everyone is educated well enough on "bull breeds" to no this and will just assume they are monsters so if you dont no dont say anything same applies to peopl with negative comments keep them to yourself there is no need to be rude or mean, your most likely talking about someones pet!!!

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 12:30am

pitty lover wrote: »

wow this old topic got fairly heated but something really pissed me off there there is NO SUCH THING AS LOCKJAW that is just plain ignorance saying such a thing!!! its **** like that, that makes people more afraid because not everyone is educated well enough on "bull breeds" to no this and will just assume they are monsters so if you dont no dont say anything same applies to peopl with negative comments keep them to yourself there is no need to be rude or mean, your most likely talking about someones pet!!!

Rude !!! I think you will find your comments ar just that. If you re-read the thread you will see the referance was made in relation to laymen's term about staffs and lock jaws. Nobody mentioned the dogs being regarded as monsters, that was your phrase. Maybe you have never seen a staff beating up on a dog and holding on for all it's worth and wagging it's and nothing was gonna get that staff off only prising its jaws apart forcibly to release it.

Nobody is labelling pitbulls as monsters, only the people who have treated them badly and used them for fighting have been classed as monsters.

bushy... · 09-06-2009 4:25am

cloudy day wrote: »

Maybe you have never seen a staff beating up on a dog and holding on for all it's worth and wagging it's and nothing was gonna get that staff off

cloudy day wrote: »

prising its jaws apart forcibly to release it.

Question : How did you( or someone) prise the dogs jaws apart ?

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 10:56am

The men used what I think was a bit of stick or something like it, hard to remember.

olaola · 09-06-2009 11:13am

So great infact that my dog was attacked by one last night. Took two grown men to pull it off my dog.

So last night we informed ourselves that the way to remove an attacking dog is to grab it by its hind legs (like a wheelbarrow) and turn it in a circular motion while walking backwards so it cannot turn around and bite you.

pitty lover · 09-06-2009 1:54pm

right whatever and i wouldent call them monsters but the general public who dont understand the breed and only see the bad will thats my point and sorry i did miss that bit about the "lockjaw" i think it is an awfaull word but if a dog is socilized properly the owner should not need a "pry stick" or "break stick" as i hav heard them called and also the law states that all restricted breeds must be muzzeled and on a 2 foot lead at all times in a public place so the owner is at fault there and that should not have happened

Whispered · 09-06-2009 2:24pm

We re-introduced my dog to the little girl my mam minds over the weekend. He had been out playing for hours with my dads dog so was wrecked, had had a drink and was in his "resting" mode, had his halti collar on etc so we were careful. He is a boisterous junior and as tall as her so we had to be very careful. Not because I think he is in anyway bad but a sudden move could knock her over.

I have to say I was so so impressed. She was nervous but dying to "pat him", she told him to sit, and he was happy to do it

He was ever so calm with her. Not his usual jumpy wirey self. He was well aware she's a baby and he needed to be gentle. It was lovely to see a dog who is essentially a pup, have so much awareness. I know it's sort of OT considering he's not a PB but he is a bull breed x.

Black Swan · 09-06-2009 2:30pm

Many So Cal communities have banned pitt bull ownership in their cities. When one attacks someone, they get a lot of bad press, whereas when another breed without a pitt bull rep attacks someone, it often goes unnoticed. Do pitt bulls deserve this attention? Some think so, others not.

bushy... · 09-06-2009 3:03pm

cloudy day wrote: »

The men used what I think was a bit of stick or something like it, hard to remember.

You need to be careful when two dogs start a fight and you go to break them up , both can turn suddenly turn on you.
You pointed out what they can do , you'd end up in bits.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 3:29pm

pitty lover wrote: »

right whatever and i wouldent call them monsters but the general public who dont understand the breed and only see the bad will thats my point and sorry i did miss that bit about the "lockjaw" i think it is an awfaull word but if a dog is socilized properly the owner should not need a "pry stick" or "break stick" as i hav heard them called and also the law states that all restricted breeds must be muzzeled and on a 2 foot lead at all times in a public place so the owner is at fault there and that should not have happened

I totally agree with you Pitty, they are totally mis-understood dogs and have been victims of being owned and raised by the wrong people.As has happened with so many of the large breeds. I love all the bull breeds.

cloudy day · 09-06-2009 3:36pm

bushy... wrote: »

You need to be careful when two dogs start a fight and you go to break them up , both can turn suddenly turn on you.
You pointed out what they can do , you'd end up in bits.

I was only a kid at the time. This was a family dog and in his 15 yrs never ever once attacked or was nasty to a human. This is a general rule with them, they never had a bad rep for attacking people which seems is down to good old proper breeding practices and there are some good internet sites where you can read up on their history (all the Bull breeds)

It's far more dangerous to get involved in a conventional dog fight as they are all over the shop in a frenzy.

pitty lover · 09-06-2009 8:13pm

thats lovely yea i do believe sometimes that they no when they really have to be good and take it handy, you would swear tia was made of springs sometimes but around my baby she is so calm

bushy... · 09-06-2009 10:22pm

cloudy day wrote: »

I was only a kid at the time. This was a family dog and in his 15 yrs never ever once attacked or was nasty to a human. This is a general rule with them, they never had a bad rep for attacking people which seems is down to good old proper breeding practices and there are some good internet sites where you can read up on their history (all the Bull breeds)

It's far more dangerous to get involved in a conventional dog fight as they are all over the shop in a frenzy.

Always seems to be the way , those who can - don't

( meant in the dogs who are skillful fighters - don't often)

fifibibi · 11-06-2009 2:25am

pitty lover wrote: »

thats lovely yea i do believe sometimes that they no when they really have to be good and take it handy, you would swear tia was made of springs sometimes but around my baby she is so calm

Hi i have been reading over this thread. I myself was afraid of Staffies, my sister has had one and raised him from a pup.
He never did anything to me, but its talk like some of whats been said in this forum that makes them total outcasts to alot of people and makes people cross the street and such when they see them, including me until i got to know this dog.

I feel completly different now that i took the time to give him a chance and not condemn him..
He was always exciteable from a pup, and would nip while playing, but he was trained to step back and lie down immediately when he does this, and once he was out of puppy phase he stopped completely.
He was hyper active but all pups are lively thats why we love pups. Isn't it? So he used to be unpredictable, but grew ou of it too, like any other dog.

Any dog needs to be owned by somebody responsible and trained to behave correctly. This staff is a big gentle giant and i have not ever in 7 years witnessed him show his teeth nevermind show aggression.

:DHe jumps up on me sometimes, when invited for a cuddle, and the daft thing forgets his strength, and sometimes he hurts me but its because he weighs so much! When he realises he caused hurt he stands back sits on his back legs, and crosses his paws in front of his face like begging, with a smile on. As if he knows what he did and is apologising.

:)

She also has children and he is afraid of them!!! and avoids them. They pull his ears and it annoys maybe hurts him. But he avoids or walks off in a different direction.:rolleyes: poor dog..They don't abuse him but they are just kids..

When he is walked he has to wear a muzzle and an extra strong harness, not for his comfort but for other peoples safety...load of **** , which i understand for the most part but he really does not need it, whereas there is no law to say that my little furball(Bichon) has to wear one,:mad: and let me tell you he does not mind small dogs, but the minute he sees a boxer, labrador,rottweiller(just examples of big dogs) he gets aggressive and very defensive,he barks and growls and starts to run at them if given the chance,but if i see a big dog headed my way i get prepared, i have to pull him into the side of footpath beside my leg and stand aside and keep him restrained to let the dog and owner pass by, while they smile and say ooh isn't he a brave little guy!!! He is only like this with big dogs and only with me. I guess he is protective.My dog is very well behaved other than this behaviour but i missed something in training him and now i deal with it.

But my point is, if it was a staff acting the way my dog does he would more than likely be looked at in disgust and probably reported or something.
I feel that law is very unfair to be based on breed, and certain breeds only.

Training, love, respect and treating this breed or any breed right has alot to do with animals tempraments and i do not believe that it is built in to a staffies genetic code (or any bull breed) to be aggressive. Thats just ridiculous and people being fearful, i have had fears but faced them and got over them, i didnt just accept my fears, i made myself understand and now i have no fear of these dogs.

:(I think people need to stop abusing this breed, and condeming them and putting them all in the one barrell.
Wherever they are whether with an owner that loves them or someone who fights them....they are not free of abuse in some form.
Constantly criticised and looked down on, and viewed as dangerous even though the person accusing, with a stare or a word knows absolutely nothing of the individual dogs temperament.

Thats all i have to say

fifibibi · 11-06-2009 3:08am

Bambi wrote: »

the breed was made to excel at fighting, and they will do that.

oh yeah, i think they're ugly buggers too

ok Bambi would you consider all of these originally bred fighting dogs, at some stage of history, as ugly and violent no matter what else you hear of them or see of them.

There is a predjudice with this breed and its ignorance!

This is a list of dog breeds originally developed for, or commonly used at some time in their history for dog fighting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dog_fighting_breeds
It shows a complete history, yet the ones that dont have crinkled faces and that are thought of as adorable are the ones who are not thought terribly of.I personally think that staffies irish or english or whatever are fine examples of a breed that are very attractive and well bred still to this day.
Do you hate all of these because of their history and how HUMANS bred them, i'll have a guess at , em ? bet your answer is NO ! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Innocents caught up again in mans endeavor to ruin things..

Half the dogs on that list are probably not known to be original fighting dogs, probably because they were given a break and protected from it, and eventually taken completely away from that scene and thoughts of fear because of what they were bred for , why can't people just do that same kind act towards bull/staff terriers ? Why don't they deserve to be treated differently or admired for a change ?

These people you witnessed who owned these animals, and you say you knew they were used for fighting and being abused, did you think to pick up the phone and save those poor animals from that life by making a simple anonymous call to the RSPCA?

I certainly would, instead of standing back and just watching them being mistreated because you dont like them and feel they are ugly, you should be ashamed!

Oh and your german shepard was it? that was so defensless when he was attacked, i hope he was not badly hurt as with the other dog involved i would wish harm on no creature, let me tell you, i have no personal grudge with the breed, but have experience of german shepards being violent, and that was not at all nice. I don't view every one of them that i meet to be vicious and not worth the time. All dogs are different

pitty lover · 11-06-2009 9:19pm

i have to say im really impressed with our last 2 posts so are my dogs lol

you are 100% right with everything , but fairplay the media and ignorance have made people afraid of these dogs so to an extent they cant be blamed for there stupied comments or nasty remarks but the point being your were prob led to believe that they were all bad too but you made an effort with the staffy and got a positive outcome and it has changed your opinion

it is all about breaking the cycle and now your one less person to pass judgment or fear to anyone else , because you were brave (for want of a better word) so well done !!

and your dog is just being protective and trying to show domanance (prob to impress you

) so it not really that much of a bad thing

For all the Pitt Bulls

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