ITV FTA decision: Not before April...

DMC

Looking good....

Sky faces threat to monopoly from ITV free satellite link with BBC
By Saeed Shah

25 October 2004

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=575691

ITV is considering joining the BBC in a new non-subscription venture which will seek to break BSkyB's monopoly on satellite broadcasting and could lead to the end of ITV's payments for having its services included on the Sky platform.

The BBC is determined to press ahead with its own free satellite (FreeSat) offering despite the fact that Sky launched such a product last week. Free satellite gives consumers access to dozens of channels, such as CNN and the BBC stations, which are broadcast free-to-air and unencrypted with just a dish and a digital decoder box.

In what could amount to a double blow for James Murdoch, the chief executive of Sky, the development of FreeSat comes at a time when ITV is renegotiating the £17m annual payment to have its satellite broadcasts encrypted by Sky. Encryption gives Sky the ability to stop the ITV signal bleeding over into other countries and ensures the right regional programmes reach the right homes.

However, the BBC went "in the clear" - unencrypted - two years ago and it believes other public service broadcasters should follow. The channels are still available to Sky users. It is understood that ITV is carefully examining this possibility, attracted by the prospect of a £17m saving which would boost profits by 5 per cent.

Sky had hoped that by providing its own free satellite product - which costs £150, including installation - it would stop the BBC or other broadcasters moving into the satellite territory. Mr Murdoch has set an ambitious target of 10 million subscribers by 2010, from the current 7.4 million. Attracting customers with a free service could be a useful stepping stone from which to persuade them to pay for subscription channels.

The BBC-backed satellite offer would seek to undercut Sky on price and would involve a one-off payment. It would endorse cheaper decoder boxes which do not have a smart-card slot for conversion to pay-TV.

Carolyn Fairbairn, the BBC's director of strategy, said: "A plurality of distribution systems is better. It's about consumer choice. Outside Freeview and cable areas, at the moment the only choice consumers have [for digital TV] is Sky."

The analogue television signal will be switched off altogether by 2012, leaving only digital broadcasting. Some areas of the country will go digital-only from 2007. Freeview, the free digital terrestrial service, does not reach 25 per cent of the country - more than 6 million households.

Ms Fairbairn said it was unlikely that the BBC could launch its FreeSat until early next year. She said if ITV also broadcast unencrypted, it would make it a "much better" proposition - otherwise households taking the BBC-endorsed FreeSat would not be able to receive ITV.

PacMan

E X C E L L E N T !
Pity Channel 4 wont do the same.

DMC

Not only will Sky be slightly bricking it at this news..... NTL and Chorus could be seriously wounded.... One of their trump cards being taken...

Charles Slane

And TV3 might not be too pleased. Although if ITV is only available on a Sky box through "Other Channels", most people won't bother to change.

Tony

DMC wrote:

Not only will Sky be slightly bricking it at this news..... NTL and Chorus could be seriously wounded.... One of their trump cards being taken...

how terrible standby for calls for the goverment to intervene to stop this travesty which will cause hundreds of job losses (this is what some industry people said when BBC planned to go FTA)

Thanks for the info Damo

JTMan

It is less than a month now before ITV have to make a decision (sometime around nov 20 the contract for encryption expires). An increase of 5% in the their profits as a result is obviously a huge factor. UTV is likely to be on our screens by christmas

channelsurfer

yep tony what is the this poor little country gonna do if itv go fta. I think a major petition is in order.. he..he... laffs.just think it will set this country back 20 years .We are so advancded now with our own free to view rte tv3 etc channels fully digital and digital text on them.. We cant surely go back to the days when rte was not available to free to air on digital..
seriously though the government can moan all they like. they cannot possibley block it. but dont be surpised if itv do a last minute deal with sky on the 19th november.

djpaul

Would love to have itv fta. ch4 will be encrypted until 2008.
Five have no interest in becoming fta (pity) TV 3 have been keeping UTV
from going free to air in the republic (F**k u tv3) Hope this happens.

Tony

channelsurfer wrote:

yep tony what is the this poor little country gonna do if itv go fta. I think a major petition is in order.. he..he... laffs.just think it will set this country back 20 years .We are so advancded now with our own free to view rte tv3 etc channels fully digital and digital text on them.. We cant surely go back to the days when rte was not available to free to air on digital..
seriously though the government can moan all they like. they cannot possibley block it. but dont be surpised if itv do a last minute deal with sky on the 19th november.

To be fair it was not the government moaning but vested interests. David Murphy a well respected journalist who sometime frequents this forum wrote a piece about the BBC situation where irrational views were put forward by industry sources, to date none of these predictions have come to pass.

daveg

Can someone tell me why ITV wouldn't go FTA? They pay sky £17million to encryption so what do they get for that £17m?

Tom Dunne

daveg wrote:

Can someone tell me why ITV wouldn't go FTA? They pay sky £17million to encryption so what do they get for that £17m?

Advertising - a major selling point for ITV is the regional advertising. People in the southwest of London don't get to see ads for car dealers in Northern Ireland, for example, they get to see only ads for local stuff.

ITV use Sky's system to deliver the regional ITV's to a user based on their postcode (which they provide when they apply for the Sky card).

daveg

Thanks Tom. Obviously that equates to greater revenue than £17m.

Macy

daveg wrote:

Thanks Tom. Obviously that equates to greater revenue than £17m.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how much they get from regional advertising. I'd say the bulk of their advertising comes from UK wide branches. From my experience, if you're judging it based on UTV, it has far more regional advertising than I remember from Granada (for example).

DMC

Up until now, ITV have had to use Sky's Postcode database in order to get the right ITV region on each viewers digibox. But since the BBC have all their regional varients on the Sky EPG, but more importantly, they have the right region on 101 and 102 while FTA, ITV are asking themselves "we can save 17 million here".

IF ITV GO FTA: I dont think all ITV regions will appear on the UK Sky EPG as explained by Tom Dunne, but of course they can be picked up via other channels, so that wont wont change. It will change for us here in Ireland without an FTV card... as we will get to see ITV exactly like we can see BBC NEWS 24, BBC THREE and BBC FOUR.

Mossy Monk

there should be no change but what of programming rights like Champions League. maybe it will be ok seeing as the germans can beam it all around Europe

Drag00n79

Mossy Monk wrote:

there should be no change but what of programming rights like Champions League. maybe it will be ok seeing as the germans can beam it all around Europe

Mossy, don't forget too that while the Beeb block some live footy matches (mainly from Scottish Premier League), nearly all the rest of their live footy is in the clear (UEFA Cup, International matches etc). I imagine ITV would be the same.

Capt'n Midnight

£17m - 5% of profits, it would take a lot of turnover to generate that profit. (that's a lot more in Euro !)

Do the BBC pay 38K per EPG entry - if so then ITV could go the same way for the most popular regions.

Would the FTV scheme or replacement be viable if you only needed it for C4 and C5 ?

And if not viable, would it have to be scrapped and if so would Channel 4 have to go FTA since Channel 4 have a public service obligation for minorities (IIRC they can't show stuff if more than 7% of the viewers watch it)

Probably just wishful thinking - but ITV FTA would make a nice christmas pressie.

doh.ie

DMC wrote:

Up until now, ITV have had to use Sky's Postcode database in order to get the right ITV region on each viewers digibox. But since the BBC have all their regional varients on the Sky EPG, but more importantly, they have the right region on 101 and 102 while FTA, ITV are asking themselves "we can save 17 million here".

IF ITV GO FTA: I dont think all ITV regions will appear on the UK Sky EPG as explained by Tom Dunne, but of course they can be picked up via other channels, so that wont wont change. It will change for us here in Ireland without an FTV card... as we will get to see ITV exactly like we can see BBC NEWS 24, BBC THREE and BBC FOUR.

If ITV do want to go FTA and join the BBC in its satellite venture, then I think it is likely a 103 will default to ITV1 London and Freesat viewers will just select their own - and they likely will - from a further set of numbers in the EPG (like the BBCs varients).

I doubt they will add those same channels on an Irish EPG (just as they currently don't appear with an Irish card in - we'll have to do Other Channels if we keep cards in), but the system that works for the Beeb is as likely to work for ITV, and UK viewers will still want their local region for news and other regional programming.

For ITV, the saving of the encryption and conditional access monies should be more than enough to persuade them that this is a sensible course of action. And with fewer imports than even the BBC, I can't see the weak Hollywood argument affecting their decision much either.

doh.ie

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Would the FTV scheme or replacement be viable if you only needed it for C4 and C5 ?

I don't believe so. I think if ITV went FTA, it would just encourage C4 and C5 to move to 2D (C4 is anyway) and go FTA as well.

You simply won't be able to have a system where a £20 card is needed for just two remaining terrestrial channels.

DMC

doh.ie wrote:

If ITV do want to go FTA and join the BBC in its satellite venture, then I think it is likely a 103 will default to ITV1 London and Freesat viewers will just select their own - and they likely will - from a further set of numbers in the EPG (like the BBCs varients).

I doubt they will add those same channels on an Irish EPG (just as they currently don't appear with an Irish card in - we'll have to do Other Channels if we keep cards in), but the system that works for the Beeb is as likely to work for ITV, and UK viewers will still want their local region for news and other regional programming.

103 wont be ITV1 London (except in London, of course!) The BBC have in place regional BBC 1 and BBC 2 at 101 and 102, plus all other regions in the 940-960 range. It was important to the BBC that your region of BBC 1 was kept at 101. If you remember back, the BBC continued on encryption while this was sorted out with Sky and even at that, it didnt occur from Day 1 of BBC FTA.

doh.ie

DMC wrote:

103 wont be ITV1 London (except in London, of course!) The BBC have in place regional BBC 1 and BBC 2 at 101 and 102, plus all other regions in the 940-960 range. It was important to the BBC that your region of BBC 1 was kept at 101. If you remember back, the BBC continued on encryption while this was sorted out with Sky and even at that, it didnt occur from Day 1 of BBC FTA.

I'm not talking about the FTV side of things (where the cards localise to region), but a box with *no* card in, which would load a default EPG which would in a potentially new version go as 101 BBC1 London 102 BBC2 England 103 ITV1 London... with the other regions in the 900s.

DMC

I get what you are saying, but nearly all Sky Digiboxes have had a card in them at some stage, so there is some user locale information in them. Even if the card is out for a long time, Sky Digiboxes are like elephants, they never forget a card. A virgin digibox without a card would be 101 BBC 1 London etc. The BBC agreed a system with Sky that while FTA, the user would still see their local BBC 1 even without a Sky card.

FTA receivers are a different kettle of fish.

doh.ie

DMC wrote:

I get what you are saying, but nearly all Sky Digiboxes have had a card in them at some stage, so there is some user locale information in them. Even if the card is out for a long time, Sky Digiboxes are like elephants, they never forget a card. A virgin digibox without a card would be 101 BBC 1 London etc. The BBC agreed a system with Sky that while FTA, the user would still see their local BBC 1 even without a Sky card.

FTA receivers are a different kettle of fish.

True. I agree that most Sky Digiboxes have cards in them, but I'm suggesting that the beauty of this potential FTA issue with ITV would be that any digibox could receive BBC channels and now ITV as well without the need for an FTV card (and any of those of us who have picked up those from the UK know that while they may be cheap, the hassle of getting on and the annoying at *having to get one* still irks).

There's also the limited duration issue with FTV cards in that while the first ones lasted years, if Sky wanted a quick couple of bucks, it seems to me they could discontinue the FTV P2s and charge FTV viewers for a new one.
Ideally, any FTV system should be completely and wholly independent of Sky, which is why I'd have no problem with a cardless system whereby you select your region by number and the defaults are as I described for 101-103.

Still have the Ch4/Five issue, but this isn't bad progress, assuming it alll goes to plan.

DMC

doh.ie wrote:

True. I agree that most Sky Digiboxes have cards in them, but I'm suggesting that the beauty of this potential FTA issue with ITV would be that any digibox could receive BBC channels and now ITV as well without the need for an FTV card (and any of those of us who have picked up those from the UK know that while they may be cheap, the hassle of getting on and the annoying at *having to get one* still irks).

Indeed it is beautiful. Even here in Ireland, on any Digibox, you can get all the BBC channels by adding them into the Other Channels function (for new readers, check out the BBC sticky here ).
With a FTV card or UK Sky sub card, you could even watch other ITV regions through other channels. And remember, we used to be able to as well for a few glorious months in 2001/2 before someone remembered we shouldnt be watching ITV. Now (again, hopefully ) ITV will be exactly the same as the BBC, free to air and without the need to subscribe to Sky, and for us down here in the Republic of Ireland, at the very least, tunable via Other Channels.

Still have the Ch4/Five issue, but this isn't bad progress, assuming it alll goes to plan.

Yes, emphasis on PLAN. ITV have said confirmed nothing yet, and it is over 3 weeks to go.

Fingers crossed everyone.

channelsurfer

yes indeed I hope it comes to more than a plan it could be itv putting out rumours to negotiate with sky and then do a last minute deal. the worst thing that could happen for sky is itv going fta that would write off murdocks free satellite offer.

robert muldoon

Fungus wrote:

It is less than a month now before ITV have to make a decision (sometime around nov 20 the contract for encryption expires). An increase of 5% in the their profits as a result is obviously a huge factor. UTV is likely to be on our screens by christmas

Surely if this happens, it cant be very good news for UTV as viewers in the South would have a choice of what region they would put in their 'other channel' list. I am sorry but the Ulster version of ITV just dos'nt appeal to me. They would have preferred ITV to put Ulster on the Irish epg but we know what the problem there is. Also I would still like to know ITV gets over its arrangement with TV3 if they go FTA

PacMan

Hopefully, and remember it hasnt been confirmed yet, that ITV will become available .
Remember the past few years in the run up to Christmas ?? We always seem to have a discussion on "ITV in the Republic"... on ICDG forums !!!

Bogger77

DMC wrote:

I get what you are saying, but nearly all Sky Digiboxes have had a card in them at some stage, so there is some user locale information in them. Even if the card is out for a long time, Sky Digiboxes are like elephants, they never forget a card. A virgin digibox without a card would be 101 BBC 1 London etc. The BBC agreed a system with Sky that while FTA, the user would still see their local BBC 1 even without a Sky card.

FTA receivers are a different kettle of fish.

I've an older grundig box, bout 3 yrs old, that still has an expired Irish card in the slot, but's forgotten it was irish and now I get the default epg, 101 BBC 1 London, no 103-105, 106 is sky but blocked of course. Have the full Irish Epg on another box so I'm not complaining.

DMC

Hmm, actually, IIRC, its quite possible the last software update caused that.

toonarmy

am i jumping the gun here ..but say we do get itv in november..thru 'other channels tuning' would itv2 be a possibility .....?

DMC

Very much so.

toonarmy

nice one...and here i was thinking of moving ship to ntl..

Drag00n79

Do NTL carry ITV2?

doh.ie

toonarmy wrote:

am i jumping the gun here ..but say we do get itv in november..thru 'other channels tuning' would itv2 be a possibility .....?

I hope this includes the new ITV3 as well. It's great to think that after eons of fussing with FTV cards, that hurdle is getting close to being no longer a problem. Sure, then Ch4 and Five will have an issue over what to do, but my hope is that both of them will (eventually) realise that they're wasting money on encryption.

Hard to believe that Ch4 have set up a sales office for ROI advertising in Dublin (for E4 ROI *and* C4 ads via the NI version) and yet they cannot arrange to put themselves on the ROI Sky system...

Round Cable

No but it's suppose to be added 'NTL' soon

toonarmy

Shamrok wrote:

Do NTL carry ITV2?

they do not but my wife wants itv1 and i itv2 for the uefa footy

Amnesiac_ie

I've been disappointed on this issue so many time sin the past that I'll "believe it when I see it."

Mossy Monk

Amnesiac_ie wrote:

I've been disappointed on this issue so many time sin the past that I'll "believe it when I see it."

indeed

i'm taking this stance aswell

eigrod

Can I just act dumb on this issue for a minute [ not hard, believe me ] :-

If ITV1 goes FTA, does this automatically mean that Irish SKY subscribers will be able to tune in straight away using similar methods as we tuned in the BBC channels ?

If ITV1 goes FTA, is there any scenario where Irish SKY subscribers will not be able to tune it in ?

Thanks.

Capt'n Midnight

eigrod wrote:

Can I just act dumb on this issue for a minute [ not hard, believe me ] :-

If ITV1 goes FTA, does this automatically mean that Irish SKY subscribers will be able to tune in straight away using similar methods as we tuned in the BBC channels ?

If ITV1 goes FTA, is there any scenario where Irish SKY subscribers will not be able to tune it in ?

Thanks.

If ITV pay sky about 38K then they can get the channel displayed on the EPG as a number (103). Otherwise it's Services, Other channels.

Irish Subscribers - red herring - if you have an Irish card it AUTOMATICALLY BLOCKS BBC and so I assume would also BLOCK ITV. you'd almost certainly have to remove the card (pop it back in upside down so as not to loose it)

so to answer your question the only scenario where Irish SKY Subscribers will not be able to tune in a FTA channel that a Digibox is physically capable of recieving is if they use the SKY CARD.

DMC

Mossy Monk wrote:

indeed

i'm taking this stance aswell

A good position to be in, but, I have to say, its now or never. I'm more positive about this now than any other story that has done the rounds since ITV came on satellite.

DMC

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Irish Subscribers - red herring - if you have an Irish card it AUTOMATICALLY BLOCKS BBC and so I assume would also BLOCK ITV. you'd almost certainly have to remove the card (pop it back in upside down so as not to loose it)

so to answer your question the only scenario where Irish SKY Subscribers will not be able to tune in a FTA channel that a Digibox is physically capable of recieving is if they use the SKY CARD.

No, thats not right. Thats if you want it to appear on the EPG, (BBC 1 London on 101) but that method has not worked since the last software update on Sky boxes if you turn your card upside regularly.
Of course anyone with an Irish Sky sub can watch the BBC channels when their frequencies are added to Other Channels. The BBC is Free-to-air. And that what we think will happen to ITV in a few weeks.

eigrod wrote:

If ITV1 goes FTA, does this automatically mean that Irish SKY subscribers will be able to tune in straight away using similar methods as we tuned in the BBC channels ?

Yes, via adding the frequencies to Other Channels

If ITV1 goes FTA, is there any scenario where Irish SKY subscribers will not be able to tune it in ?

If its FTA, we'll get it in exactly the same way we get the BBC, which is mostly through the Other Channels function.

eigrod

Cheers DMC, that's clarified things for me....fingers crossed now eh !

doh.ie

DMC wrote:

No, thats not right. Thats if you want it to appear on the EPG, (BBC 1 London on 101) but that method has not worked since the last software update on Sky boxes if you turn your card upside regularly.

I thought this was the case too - that the latest update had caused a box to become "Irish" or "British", but pop in an FTV card and let it "initialise" (as in "Initialising New Sky Card") and you'll see the box becomes a British one again...! If the FTV card is then taken out of that box and the box is left on its own, it will continue to remain "British" (as in 101, 102 BBC1/2 without a card) rather than the Irish ones.

mickeyboymel

doh.ie wrote:

I thought this was the case too - that the latest update had caused a box to become "Irish" or "British", but pop in an FTV card and let it "initialise" (as in "Initialising New Sky Card") and you'll see the box becomes a British one again...! If the FTV card is then taken out of that box and the box is left on its own, it will continue to remain "British" (as in 101, 102 BBC1/2 without a card) rather than the Irish ones.

If you reboot a digibox which has previously been married to an Irish card,WITHOUT any card inserted,the default EPG with 101-BBC1 London,102-BBC2 England appears,while 103,104 &105 do not appear at all,and the regional BBCs variations and radio stations are down the bottom of the EPG in the 900s and radio sections respectively.

The upsidedown card is no longer relevant since the software update reffered to.

doh.ie

mickeyboymel wrote:

If you reboot a digibox which has previously been married to an Irish card,WITHOUT any card inserted,the default EPG with 101-BBC1 London,102-BBC2 England appears,while 103,104 &105 do not appear at all,and the regional BBCs variations and radio stations are down the bottom of the EPG in the 900s and radio sections respectively.

The upsidedown card is no longer relevant since the software update reffered to.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Still, one of my old Irish boxes was refusing to take the default EPG until I gave it an FTV card and then rebooted it with the card out. Up until then it seemed to insist on being an Irish box card or not, reboot or not...

channelsurfer

silly question I know but by reboot do you mean switchiing off the power taking out the irish card and then turning the digibox back on . If not how do you reboot it? the last time I tred the power off trick without a card it still had the irish epg on it and wanted the irish card .

Capt'n Midnight

The on/off button on the remote (or the box itself) does not power it down, it doesn't even put it a low power mode, since there will still be power going to the LNB. AFAIK it is still capable of sw updates even when "off"..

So switch off at the wall. leave off for a minute and then back on - flick on / off is bad for any electronic equipment as it is for light bulbs. I've heard of some people using remote control power sockets to reset digiboxes..

DMC

doh.ie wrote:

Yeah, that's what I thought. Still, one of my old Irish boxes was refusing to take the default EPG until I gave it an FTV card and then rebooted it with the card out. Up until then it seemed to insist on being an Irish box card or not, reboot or not...

TBH, I dunno why that is happening to you guys. I have a digibox without an Irish card for the last 6 months, and it will still load the Irish EPG, no matter how many times I reboot the box.

And thats what most people here get, from reports.

doh.ie

DMC wrote:

TBH, I dunno why that is happening to you guys. I have a digibox without an Irish card for the last 6 months, and it will still load the Irish EPG, no matter how many times I reboot the box.

And thats what most people here get, from reports.

Can I suggest you try one of the following things, cos you can *definitely* force an "Irish" box to become a 'default' or 'UK' one.

1) Put in an FTV card, leave this in - reboot with this card in - take it out, reboot again - should now be on UK (101 & 102, 106 etc) EPG.

2) Perform a software upgrade with no card in, or an Irish one upside down

3) Peform a software upgrade while an FTV card is in.

I was surprised too, to see mine return to a UK one, but one of those will work. (I'm just not sure which of those I did to get it to happen - bad memory!)

DMC

Aha! Pointless without an FTV card

Interesting quirk all the same, good find!