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Creatine / Protein question

  • 14-10-2004 10:24am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39


    Hi,

    I've recently started back weight training after a break of a year during which I was playing football. My goals are to bulk up (strength and size) over the winter months, and I was thinking of taking Creatine along with a protein powder supplement I've used before.

    My question is - how should I use Creatine in conjunction with the protein shakes - ie: when should I take it, before or after training. Can they be mixed?

    I know there is a sticky on where to buy supplements but I can't see anything about when or how to take them.

    Any advice would be much appreciated.

    Thanks,
    M M M


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,352 ✭✭✭Ardent


    I don't want to sound like a smart arse or a knobhead but do absolutley need to take Creatine? Recent studies have found it to be hazardous to your long term health, e.g., all the top Premiership clubs have stopped their players using it. I thought about it myself when I was weight training a couple of years ago but figured it was not worth the bother.

    If you do still want to use it, I believe you have to take it at regular intervals on a daily basis, starting with a low intake during your first week and slowly working your way up in subsequent weeks. Whatever product you decide to go with, it should come with the necessary instructions.

    My two cents: if you want to bulk up, just make sure you're eating enough, with lots of protein.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Jak


    Do you have a link to the studies by any chance?

    Would be interesting to take a look.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Jak


    Oh as for Creatine,

    In simple terms ...

    It doesn't 'bulk you up' long term. It facilitates you in training at a higher level of intensity more often, thus letting you get better gains/growth. Think of it as fuel for muscles. If you expend it all, you can't train till it builds back up naturally from regular foods. Well you could train, but the intensity level would mean it is a a complete and utter waste of your time. Nothing new there for some folk.

    The only short term 'bulk' is associated with water bonding and hence a slightly fuller physique (nothing dramatic trust me).

    Anyhow, I used to take it when I was training 5-6 times a week - it had a significant effect on my training. Now I train 2-4 times a week, and it is not so necessary I find. Eating plenty and well keeps me ticking over just fine in sessions.

    As for dosage - this varies - from a teaspoon to 3 tablespoons depending on who you ask. One thing that does not vary is to have a loading period (higher dosage for say 10 days) followed by lower 'top-up' dosages over 3 weeks. Then 1 week break (never found that necessary).

    Also as a result of the water bonding mentioned above I suggest you up your daily water intake if you want to avoid cramps from dehydration effects.

    JAK.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39 mean mr mustard


    Thanks for the info. I'll probably keep going with my training as normal for the next few weeks and if all goes well and I feel I may benefit from Creatine I will seriously consider getting some.

    Just one more question: when is the best time to take it - before or after training, and can it be taken with a protein supplement?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,514 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    do absolutley need to take Creatine? Recent studies have found it to be hazardous to your long term health, e.g., all the top Premiership clubs have stopped their players using it.
    Hazardous in what way? Do you have a link to any studies or anything at all to back up your statements? If you have, then fair enough.

    If you haven't then all you're doing is spreading uninformed, anti-creatine hysteria.

    BrianD3


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,439 ✭✭✭ando


    as far as I know, you take a big amount when you first take it, to fill up. Then once your at a certain level you take a maintenance dose every day. All it does is give you some more energy when your at the extreme


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 White&Proud


    Description
    Creatine is an amino acid. It is normally produced in the body from arginine, glycine and methionine. Creatine plays a vital role in cellular energy production as creatine phosphate (phosphocreatine) in regenerating adenosine triphosphate (ATP) in skeletal muscle. Without ATP, muscle contraction is not possible. Oral administration of creatine increases muscle stores and may increase muscle strength and improve exercise performance. In the diet, creatine is found in meat and fish - although cooking destroys most of it.

    Claims
    Increased energy
    Enhances muscle size and strength
    Increased power output

    Theory
    Most of the creatine in the diet comes from meat (an 8-ounce steak might have a gram), but about half of the body’s supply is manufactured in the liver and kidneys. On average, your muscles require about 2 grams of creatine a day (somewhat more for muscular people, a bit less for skinny folks), but more or less depending on your activity level and degree of muscle mass.

    Creatine is stored in muscle cells as phosphocreatine and is used to help generate cellular energy for muscle contractions. It also may increase the amount of water that each muscle cell holds - thus increasing the size of the muscle (and possibly its function as well). Creatine is used in the body to produce creatine phosphate or CP, which can be thought of as a storage form of quick energy. The function of CP is to regenerate the primary supply of cellular energy - which comes from adenosine triphosphate (ATP). ATP supplies energy for all cells in your body. Upon giving up some of its energy, ATP becomes ADP (diphosphate) and needs to be regenerated back to ATP to do it all over again. CP performs this crucial ATP regeneration step by donating a phosphate group to ADP.

    Under conditions where rapid resynthesis of ATP is important - such as during repeated bouts of high intensity exercise - a higher muscle concentration of CP may serve as a reservoir of stored energy and, therefore, enhance performance. Although it has not been studied extensively, there may also be a role for creatine in maintaining muscle mass and preventing the muscle wasting that occurs as a result of old age and in chronic conditions such as AIDS and heart failure.


    Scientific Support
    Creatine is one of the new breed of dietary supplements - those based on sound scientific theory and backed up by well-controlled studies. At this writing, at least 20 published articles exist to support the efficacy of creatine supplements in improving performance in high intensity, repeated bout activities. Creatine supplements do not appear to enhance physical performance, however, among subjects performing lower intensity endurance activity such as cycling or running

    A number of studies on creatine and athletic performance have clearly shown that its benefits are limited to anaerobic sports such as like weight lifting, sprinting and jumping. No direct performance benefit of creatine has been shown for endurance athletes. Although increased muscle mass could conceivably enhance endurance performance, the weight gain from water and muscle weight may even result in a decline in performance.

    The benefits of creatine are likely to be due to an increased ability to train harder - thus increasing strength. This might be good news to athletes who are training intensely, but it means that creatine alone would probably have very little effect on the muscle mass of sedentary individuals.

    A significant gain in physical performance in high-intensity exercise has been shown with creatine doses of 20 to 30 g/day, but more recent research is indicating that similar performance benefits are possible with much lower doses in the range of 2-5 grams/day (though benefits may take longer to be noticed).

    Taking very large doses of creatine daily seemed to increase the strength of muscular dystrophy patients' muscles by about 10 percent. Although that may be considered a relatively small gain it may be very important to that person who can now pick up a glass of water. Ten grams of creatine per day for 5 days followed by 5 grams per day for another week have produced increases in muscle strength in the legs, hands and feet of patients with muscular dystrophy. Such patients usually have lower creatine levels than healthy people, so boosting muscle stores may help augment cellular energy production and support muscular contraction.


    Safety
    Because of its effects on muscle strength and size, creatine is often confused with anabolic steroids. Steroids, which mimic the effects of the male sex hormone testosterone, can result in a wide variety of adverse side effects such as acne, hair loss, testicular shrinkage and psychological problems. Although the long-term effects of prolonged creatine use has not been examined, no obvious adverse effects have been linked to use of creatine as a dietary supplement. Side effects reported anecdotally include gastrointestinal distress, nausea, dehydration and muscle cramping - but none of these effects have been documented in scientific studies

    Although no serious side effects have been scientifically verified in subjects using relatively brief (less than 4 weeks) creatine regimens, there are anecdotal reports of muscle cramping associated with the creatine supplements. Some athletes have reported muscle cramps, muscle tears and dehydration. A cautionary note is also advised, for people with kidney disorders and for those at risk for dehydration (such as exercise in extreme heat or during cutting weight for wrestling or lightweight crew).


    Value

    Consumers spent well over $200 million on creatine supplements last year. Creatine has become one of the hottest sports supplements for one major reason - it works. Creatine appears to be effective in specific situations - those activities which are high-intensity and require short bouts of repeated activity (e.g. weight lifting and football). Athletes in other sports may achieve a significant indirect benefit, as creatine supplements may allow more intense levels of weight training, with strength and power benefits transferring to the sport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 White&Proud


    Description
    There is no denying that protein is a vitally important nutrient for general health and hundreds of specific functions in the body. There’s an old saying in nutrition research, that the body contains no "extra" protein – which is meant to convey the idea that every single protein in the body was assembled to carry out a specific function – there is no storage form of protein in the body. The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for protein is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight for adults (0.36 grams per pound) – with growing kids, adolescents and both power and endurance needing slightly more (see below). A 70 kg adult (154 lbs) would need about 56 grams per day (about the amount provided in 8 ounces of lean meat).

    Claims
    Builds muscle
    Increases strength
    Controls appetite
    Aids weight loss
    Improves endurance
    Boosts energy levels
    Promotes immune function


    Theory
    Protein is one of the primary nutrients involved in growth, development and repair of virtually all tissues in the body. Through protein-based molecules called enzymes, protein plays a vital role in regulating many of the metabolic processes in the body. In some cases, such as extreme endurance exercise, protein can also serve as an important source of energy, particularly when energy stores of carbohydrates in muscle and liver become exhausted. Following strenuous exercise, protein supplements are theorized to help speed repair and regeneration of damaged tissues by providing an additional source of amino acids needed to synthesize tissue structures. As a weight loss aid, elevated protein intakes have been associated with a more gradual rise in blood sugar and a heightened sense of satiety compared to meals higher in carbohydrates.

    Scientific Support
    There is very good evidence that protein needs are elevated by exercise training, infection and other periods of acute and chronic stress. Some of the best evidence comes from studies of competitive athletes, in whom protein needs are nearly doubled during periods of intense training and competition. Athletes competing in power or strength sports probably require about 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, while endurance-trained athletes need about 1.3 grams per kg. For athletes, who also need to replenish bodily stores of carbohydrates and fluids in addition to protein, a post-exercise recovery drink is often the most convenient and effective form of supplement.

    Safety
    Although protein is a major dietary component, excess intakes could lead to imbalances in other aspects of the diet. Protein intakes should be kept below 2.0 grams per kilogram of body weight because no scientific evidence supports beneficial effects above this level. There have been concerns raised for several years regarding the possible "strain" put on the liver and kidneys by excessive protein intake. Although this may be a very real concern for individuals at risk for liver or kidney disease, (where high protein diets may accelerate tissue damage) there is no strong evidence indicating a safety concern for healthy individuals.

    Value
    A wide variety of protein supplements exist – complete with their own set of claims of superiority versus the competition. Various mixtures from protein sources such as milk, eggs and soy are among the most popular – but the cost varies considerably across the wide range of choices. In terms of convenience, isolated and/or concentrated protein mixtures make a lot of sense for many individuals.


    taken from: www.supplementwatch.com


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 White&Proud


    About protein supplementation, you should take it after training and before going to bed.

    - After training, because during training you fatigue and destroy much of your muscle, so your organism needs to build more muscle;

    - Before sleep, because it's during your sleep when your organism better builds up what was destroyed during the day.

    About the Creatine, just have a look in my post about it and think twice if you really want to take it. I'd only recommend Creatine to sport specific... because when you stop Creatine supplementation, you'll note the difference... I guarantee you that!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,483 ✭✭✭✭daveirl


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,352 ✭✭✭Ardent


    daveirl wrote:
    This post has been deleted.

    I don't have access to the studies done, just remember reading about them. Found this though:

    Arsene Wenger on Creatine, he knows more about it than me:

    He also confirmed that Arsenal did use the controversial dietary supplement Creatine for a while (although no-one was forced to take it). But that has stopped. "We did use it for two or three months....", he says, "but when we found out that it could have side effects, then we banned it completely."

    http://www.arseweb.org/www/newsreel/t8i505.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Jak


    No offence intended, but aside from Arsene Wenger not being my usual source of dietary information, the quote you gave states - "when we found out that it could have side effects".

    There have been people saying for years that it may have side effects or cause long term damage. As of yet I am aware of no rigorous scientific study to provide evidence of this. On the other hand, in the major post here on creatine a long while ago, links were provided showing numerous studies highlighting no negative effects recorded in the short or medium term (up to 10 years I believe).

    JAK.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭Genghis


    I am about to begin training for an Ironman event next year. Would Creatine be of any benefit to me. I will be training 11 times a week, apx 12-14 hours per week over 6 days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭adjodlo


    I recently started training again after a VERY long break. I went from a low of 10.5 stone to a high of 11.9 in just over roughly 3-4 weeks of training. I've been supplementing creatine, protein and carbs - all of which i bought from the ministry of fitness.

    I've never seen gains of this magnitude on myself, and thats despite the fact that I seem to be able to gain muscle quite easily. Good genetics I guess. Anyways I've read up a lot about creatine and I havn't seen ONE scientific report which pointed to negative side effects.

    And btw where do some of the people here get their crazy information:
    As for dosage - this varies - from a teaspoon to 3 tablespoons depending on who you ask. One thing that does not vary is to have a loading period (higher dosage for say 10 days) followed by lower 'top-up' dosages over 3 weeks. Then 1 week break (never found that necessary).


    As far as I've seen, 20 grams a day for the first 5 days is the dose to start on, and then continueing with a 3-5 gram maintenance dose every day following. Some people talk about a need to cycle it (i.e. use it for a few months then stop), but from anyone I've talked to that actually USED creatine before I've been told that it's totally unnesessary.
    I measure my 5 gram dose as one slightly heaped teaspoon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭adjodlo


    btw its best taken post-workout. I take it in a shake filled with protein, carbs and 5 grams of creatine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Jak


    adjodlo wrote:
    And btw where do some of the people here get their crazy information:

    As far as I've seen, 20 grams a day for the first 5 days is the dose to start on, and then continueing with a 3-5 gram maintenance dose every day following. Some people talk about a need to cycle it (i.e. use it for a few months then stop), but from anyone I've talked to that actually USED creatine before I've been told that it's totally unnesessary.
    I measure my 5 gram dose as one slightly heaped teaspoon.

    My crazy information probably comes from about 10 years experience and at a guess a considerably more serious training history than yourself. Dosage for creatine does vary from individual to individual, 5g top ups may be the stated average, however, it is about finding the dosage that works best for you. This is likely related to the fact that a handfull of studies have highlighted that the body's capacity to store creatine is related to muscle mass, i.e. 5g per kilo of muscle. Hence, some people feel 5g is plenty as a top up, yet personally I always found 10g to be best in terms of recovery/results. Other than that I see little difference between your post and the crazy information I gave.

    JAK.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭adjodlo


    Jak wrote:
    As for dosage - this varies - from a teaspoon to 3 tablespoons depending on who you ask. One thing that does not vary is to have a loading period (higher dosage for say 10 days) followed by lower 'top-up' dosages over 3 weeks. Then 1 week break (never found that necessary).

    3 table spoons? And what are these "lower 'top up'" doses?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Jak


    Did you even read the post?

    The point is that people in a loading phase take a higher dosage, which very easily could be 3 tblspoons - again I found this to work well as what your body cannot store will pass through the system, thus the higher dosage in loading ensures you fully load your system. Again, as I said, then you find the right top up dosage that seems to deliver you the best results/recovery and stick with that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 618 ✭✭✭johnnyc


    creatine is brillant i am taking the supplement at the moment i started squats, deadlift couldn't lift much at the start 50kgs (woman) know i am up to 120kgs. I was stook at 90kgs(i know i am still a wimp)i on my 2nd day of the loading phase at the moment and i cannot believe what i am lifting. Thank god for creatine :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭Easygainer


    Both would be conducive to your goals.

    Creatine is best taken immediately post workout. Optimally, it will be taken with sugars and other absorption aids, so they don't go well with protein.

    To mix it well with protein buy plain micronized creatine monohydrate and take 5 or 6g with protein and a couple of tablespoons of glucose (baby section, tesco 99c/0.5kg), that'll overcome most of the absorption probs.

    Creatine has never been proven dangerous. It causes water retention, and excessive water drinking (as in +2gallons a day and more in a normal sized person with kidney problems) can be a problem... but not really. You get a bit of water weight while "on" that disappears after 3/4 days of stopping.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,394 ✭✭✭Transform


    I have had very good short term gains with creatine HOWEVER most people look for results in a tub or pill sooner than they will in proper orgainsed training and nutrition.

    My question would be how often are you NOW training and are you eating whole, unprocessed fresh food? Only after the basics are covered would i then look for the next step. Get some gains going first and establish some progress, once progress has dried up i.e. should take about 6-12 months THEN think about looking for that extra 5% improvement. Also if you are less than 25years old and have not trained in a while you will most likely have a better recovery ability than someone who is already at their limit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭joc_06


    Easygainer wrote:
    Creatine is best taken immediately post workout. Optimally, it will be taken with sugars and other absorption aids, so they don't go well with protein.

    I mix my ON protein with creatine in the mornin and post workout and drink with water. I drink it with cold water and i must say its delicious. thanks easygainer.

    the other 2 times i take my ON protein is with lunch and b4 bed again with water. Is this good/bad?

    I must get glucose to mix with it for my post workout drink. would you add glucose to your shake any other time. I presume not as these are simple sugars which are needed post workout to replenish carbs burnt in training and stop your body stripping the necessary from your muscles. is this correct?


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