Rally The Troops!!!

*Sinéad*

there'll be a protest outside the dáil this tuesday at 2, for decent grants an end to registration fees and reversal of the financial cuts. Buses will leave ucd from the number 10 bus stop near the quinn building.There will be more information at the stand opposite theatre L in the arts building on monday and tuesday morning. also more info on the campaign can be found at www.usi.ie .


Bí ann agus abair le bhur gcairde!!!
(be there and tell your friends)

OfflerCrocGod

Nope sorry but our colleges have to be funded somehow....where do you think the cash to run UCD comes from, the sky? What about R&D by the students this is expensive stuff but it's necessary for our education system to produce the best students. I'm sorry but all your asking for is a free lunch....someone has to pay. I'm already getting nearly €2K a year from the state - I don't bother getting a job because of that cash - I'm happy being a leach. We can't all be like that the system would collapse under it's own weight. *Sinéad* you are offering no alternative "Give me money" but your are not saying where that money will come from.

pigeonbutler

Well said Offlercrocgod, I'm only in UCD 4 weeks and I'm already getting very tired of the extreme left-wing tendancies of the SU. How the hell did these whingers ever get elected to high office? Don't they realise the Government isn't some body who prints money to give to people, it's just REDISTRIBUTING our money!!! These people should realise that it's not very fair for people who have no interest in going to 3rd level to be lumbered with massive taxes so as to give students massive grants and completely free education.

Definition of a socialist: Someone who has nothing and wants to take everything you have.

OfflerCrocGod

pigeonbutler wrote:

Well said Offlercrocgod, I'm only in UCD 4 weeks and I'm already getting very tired of the extreme left-wing tendancies of the SU. How the hell did these whingers ever get elected to high office?

Students are young and therefore tend to be idealistic, naive and lacking in experience as to how the big bad world really works Wait till they get a proper job, morgage and kids by then the idealism will have been blowtorched away by reality. I would never deny peoples right to protest though....but that doesn't mean I'll listen to them/agree with them.

Red Alert

The quick story is as follows:

2001/2002 - The SU was run by a right-wing bastard known coloquially as "Fungus Hourihane"

2002/2003 - My arrival in UCD! Fungus is in for a second term in office. He dismantles any campaigning that the union did, so much so that he said in our lectures "we;re not really here to represent you all, we're just here to provide services". Need I mention that he was an active member of the Fianna Fail KBC?

2003/2004 - The SU was run by a little known character called Paul Dillon - he did so little that only this morning I couldn't even remember who the SU president last year was. The election last year saw the rise of "Old Man Scully", along with the deputy president, a man known as Weafer. All of these had very strong socialist tendencies - although to be honest the rest of the line-up was worse. I personally voted for Richard Waghorne - at least he wouldn't be paying money to get an indymedia clone done as the website.

2004 onwards - hence we have the Socialist Republic of UCD.

Syth

The thing I find ironic is that normally those on the left support proper 3rd level fees. That way the rich pay for the education of the poor! Why should someone whose parents earn €120,000 a year get their education subsidised!? Fu¢k the rich, thwey should pay, not get everything for free.

Gaijin

"These people should realise that it's not very fair for people who have no interest in going to 3rd level to be lumbered with massive taxes so as to give students massive grants and completely free education."

Rates Non-Adjacent Rate Adjacent Rate
Full Maintenance 2,945 euro 1,180 euro
Part (75%) 2,210 euro 880 euro
Part (50%) 1,475 euro 590 euro
Part (25%) 735 euro 295 euro




Is this your idea of a massive grant? Keeping in mind those who are eligible for a grant are usually coming from a very low income family,this grant is probably the only financial assistence they get.

So lets say they get the maximum,€2,945 take transport,mine for example is €360 in a year.Books/materials absolute minimum €200, lots of everyday costs like say photocopying....are they allowed eat? Easy €30 a week(and thats skimping)
By the way Im assuming here that the person lives at home and doesnt encounter rent,bills,weekly shopping. For gods sake even living on campus for the year costs more than the maximum grant,just for the bloody room.

Heres where i got hose figures by the way,
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/third_level_education/maintenance_grant_schemes_for_students_on_third_level_courses.html

You might have to copy & paste if the link doesn't work.
Its worth taking a look at the family income limits for eligibility. I challange you to look at it and tell me honestly you think they are fair given the cost of living today. Not to mention there are some parents who wouldn't give their kids a cent.

Ok there are part time jobs, and the majority of students support themselves through these. How many hours on minimum wage,on top of study do you think students have to work to just level out?

And free education,since when is €800 registration fee free? Fair enough those on grants dont have to pay and its a hell of a lot better than paying the full wack

So it seems to me your mentality is if you cant pay for education tough **** on you. Off to the coal mines is it? That sounds a tad elitist to me.

Im not saying I have any answers to the obvious funding problems nor am I saying "gimie,gimie,gimie", Im just trying to point out its not as simple as you seem to have labeled it up to be.

The government are screwing universities over and we are sitting here taking it,they could spend more on education,they are just trying to cut corners and take the easy way out.

By the way, I don't nor have I ever recieved a grant...I could just sense the smartass post coming...

Syth

Don't forget that the in order to get the non-adjacent rate grant you must live more than 15 miles from the college, so for a lot of people living at home means withing the 15 mile limit, so you only get an adjacent rate grant of which the maximum is €1180.

That's one reason why I think we should have proper fees. What I would like to see ideally is for the rich to pay fees for college, all that money be redistributed to poorer students as grants. There should be many levels depending on your income and personal circumstances. That's what I think should happen. However I don't really trust the current government that much.

Gaijin

I see where you're coming from but I cant see that working. This government particularly wants to keep the rich business types happy, and I dont think that they would be very happy when slapped with a large tax bill!

Plus how democratic is it to say "hey you,pay this and shut up!"

I think they need to sort out the tax system. Stop charging people on lower wages 42%, effectively taking half of their money,meanwhille the business types find themselves exempt or can claim a load back off the state!!

They should pay for it that way.Tax the rich appropriately.

Also those who suggest privatisation of eduation should have their mental health checked!

Stabshauptmann

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Nope sorry but our colleges have to be funded somehow

Education is a basic right and thus should be provided by the state. Where the state could get that funding: Public-Pivate Prtnerships (after all R&D greatly benifits the business world), revenue for Semi State Bodies, revenue from taxation.

....where do you think the cash to run UCD comes from, the sky?

This government seems to find cash for funding its priorities, there has been no shortage of inflow during their term in office, they have had more resources than any other government. Yes money doesnt grow on trees or fall from the sky, but there is enough of it at present to provide a better level of education or even a free version of the present system.

What about R&D by the students this is expensive stuff but it's necessary for our education system to produce the best students.

And to progress society and create new business opportunities. Why should those who benifit from said R&D not have to contribute towards it? Sounds a bit like a free luch if you ask me...

I'm sorry but all your asking for is a free lunch....someone has to pay. I'm already getting nearly €2K a year from the state - I don't bother getting a job because of that cash - I'm happy being a leach. We can't all be like that the system would collapse under it's own weight.

DFT

*Sinéad* you are offering no alternative "Give me money" but your are not saying where that money will come from.

Because its so obvious to anyone who has paid attention in the past few years that Ireland has become an extremly rich country and that its time to stop "tightening our belts". We were asked by successive governments to make many sacrifices "to make the country great" and that when that day came we would get the services we as citizens deserve. This time has come.

Syth wrote:

The thing I find ironic is that normally those on the left support proper 3rd level fees. That way the rich pay for the education of the poor! Why should someone whose parents earn €120,000 a year get their education subsidised!? Fu¢k the rich, thwey should pay, not get everything for free.

You cant charge some and not others to avail of their basic rights. Fee education for all I say. If there was a equitable tax system in this country however the rich would be paying more towards the provision of this education than the poor.
If you look at the current requirments for a grant (or our current tax bands) and imagine then that "only the rich pay fees". Nearly everybody would have to fork out for fees!

It is my belief that it is the responsibility of the state to provide its citizens with the services and security it can.
That put simply means that I believe that there should be a high quality of Public transport, education and health care affordable to all. Yes some can afford to pay more for these than others but I dont think it wise to charge ppl more for the use of them. Is a super rich person likely to use dublin bus? Not really.

So we should deduct the costs of these services at source, tax! But we do that already and if you ask me, tax is too high
WE have a relativly low level of tax compared to France or scandanavia and yet it is these counties we constantly benchmark our services against.
Secondly we have one of the largest divides between rich and poor in the world due to very questionable taxation policies.

AngelofFire

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Nope sorry but our colleges have to be funded somehow....where do you think the cash to run UCD comes from, the sky? What about R&D by the students this is expensive stuff but it's necessary for our education system to produce the best students. I'm sorry but all your asking for is a free lunch....someone has to pay. I'm already getting nearly €2K a year from the state - I don't bother getting a job because of that cash - I'm happy being a leach. We can't all be like that the system would collapse under it's own weight. *Sinéad* you are offering no alternative "Give me money" but your are not saying where that money will come from.

Since you have started to politicise this argument, i will do so aswell. There is 2.5 billion budget surplus forcast. Irelands spending on education as percentage of GDP is below European levels. 1/5th of the 2.5 billion would easily: bring ireland up to EU levels, alleviate reg fees, provide grants and accomadation for all students and pay for school builidngs to be refurbished.

The Money is there the political will, clearly isn`t.

rainbow kirby

Syth wrote:

That's one reason why I think we should have proper fees. What I would like to see ideally is for the rich to pay fees for college, all that money be redistributed to poorer students as grants. There should be many levels depending on your income and personal circumstances.

This is something I agree with. I get no money from my family towards college at all, and my grant applications have been rejected every time I've applied. I've had to work in part time jobs all the way through college, and over the last year that started to really hurt my grades in college.

Mutant_Fruit

AngelofFire wrote:

1/5th of the 2.5 billion would easily: bring ireland up to EU levels, alleviate reg fees, provide grants and accomadation for all students and pay for school builidngs to be refurbished.

The Money is there the political will, clearly isn`t.

So, supposing they decide to spend 20% of the surplus on colleges etc. What else has to suffer? So we pay less off the national debt? Do they have to cut back elsewhere? Where does that 20% get taken from?

Stabshauptmann

Mutant_Fruit wrote:

So, supposing they decide to spend 20% of the surplus on colleges etc. What else has to suffer? So we pay less off the national debt? Do they have to cut back elsewhere? Where does that 20% get taken from?

Well I would like to see some government jobs getting a pay cut, I feel the spending on the government jet and car parks was frivolous as was unneccessary the number of times gov ministers used air transport to get around IRELAND.
How much money was squandered on the bertie bowl that wasnt built, tax exemptions for property investment are an evil, theres another few euro. It all adds up.

What deserves more spending than education, health, transport and security?

snickerpuss

Talking about grants though, it doesnt mean you'll just be getting one, most of my friends have 3 or 4. They ahve bucketloads of money, and their parents only earn marginally less then mine, and ive been paying huge amounts of money all flippin month. (just cos my parents have it, doesnt mean they're giving it to me, i dont think thats recognised)
(yes i am bitter)
I do think that people should get grants if they need them but 3 and 4 is a bit excessive.

AngelofFire

Where does that 20% get taken from?

The surplus, there will be 2 billion left over to clear the national debt and to spend on other sectors. Its also worth noting that we have one of the lowest national debts in the EU15.

Syth

3 or 4 grants? That's lots, how did they manage that? (Starts taking notes) I only got 2 grants last year Another thing that's ridiculus is that some people have well off parents who don't give them a penny, so they get no grant. Those kinda people should be able to get a grant. Then again everyone would be saying that they get no money from their parents, so the best way is to do huge audits of a random set of people who say they are getting no parental money, and if they are caught significantly lying, then come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Necromancer wrote:

You cant charge some and not others to avail of their basic rights

I think you should be able to, on the condition that you can only charge the rich, not the poor. You shouldn't be able to charge someone jsut cause you don't like them. To give an example, medical care is a human right, yet only the poor get (and should get) medical cards. Same for other things like the dole, or council houses. I think the idea should be "If you can't afford this, then we'll give it to you because it's a human right. If you can afford this, then buy it yourself."

AngelofFire

I do think that people should get grants if they need them but 3 and 4 is a bit excessive

I think that every college student should get some form of grant. Judging them by their parents income is an inadequade way of assessing their need for one. For example when i was promoting a campaign in the arts block and i was talkin to this student who was a single mother. she wasn`t entitled to a grant because she was assesed on her parents income, i thought that was very unfair, this girl is struggling to bring a child up at the same time she has to study for her degree and avail of childcare facilities. Last year the number of childcare places was slashed due to cutbacks.

In this context President Brady spends 1.5 million of college money on his own personal gym in his on campus home, this is completely scanadalous, there is already a gym 2 mins up the road from his house, can he not use it like all the other plebs.This is a man who is on 150,000 per year, on top of that he gets a free credit card so effectively he can bank most of his money and use the credit card to buy groceries, fuel, lunch etc. If he wanted his own personal gym so badly then he could have financed it himself. So instead of attacking your fellow students who need to avail of a grant to get through their college years, sign the hugh brady position in the arts block, make him accountable for wasting college resources, whats done is done but he should be made to pay back the college money that was spent on the gym.

statement by

Chris Bond,Vice Chair-UCD Pat Upton Branch - Labour youth

OfflerCrocGod

Necromancer wrote:

Education is a basic right and thus should be provided by the state. Where the state could get that funding: Public-Pivate Prtnerships (after all R&D greatly benifits the business world), revenue for Semi State Bodies, revenue from taxation.

All Primary and Secondary education is 100% free. Third level is massively subsidized and for most people it's free, the fact that not everyone is getting a grant to spend during the year on various expenses is not something that's causing concern at Secondary and Primary level. Of course at that age you have your parents to take care of you....by Third level you should be an adult therefore capable of taking care of yourself. I'm not saying that grants are wrong I do want free access to Third level education to all capable students I just don't think everyone should have cheques written out to them when the money could be spent on more important things.

Necromancer wrote:

This government seems to find cash for funding its priorities, there has been no shortage of inflow during their term in office, they have had more resources than any other government. Yes money doesnt grow on trees or fall from the sky, but there is enough of it at present to provide a better level of education or even a free version of the present system.

I'm not disputing that fact it's just that the money could also be spend on other things like our Health system or Pensions or improving our terrible road system or building proper schools for Primary school kids who are still being taught in pre-fab buildings or a million other projects. Why should we the healthiest, fittest, most employable people in the state get funds above the rest? Oh and funding everything is a pipedream, some people will complain about the 99% tax rates.

Necromancer wrote:

And to progress society and create new business opportunities. Why should those who benifit from said R&D not have to contribute towards it? Sounds a bit like a free luch if you ask me...

Universities are not in the business of being businesses. Some R&D can have commercial applications a lot on the other hand is rubbish - it just acts as teaching material. Most funding in Ireland for major Post-Grad/Lecturer projects comes from SFI not companies. When companies see the level of investment being put in to our education system they see Ireland as a good country to work in, creating jobs and wealth for the population when they move here. The money being invested into R&D is valuable as a tool to attract foreign investment.

Necromancer wrote:

DFT

Discrete Fourier Transformations? The fact I was trying to get across was that students in certain cases don't really need these grants - I don't need all of what I'm getting. I live on €35 a week easily. Many people who go to UCD don't need grants ( 60% came from private schools ) the fact that people who can easily afford to pay for college get it for free is a great waste. People whose family can easily afford it should pay. As Syth said the rich should pay, they don't need the free ride. This was about to happen last year but it was protested againts by lots of well of kids in UCD ( remember that? ) so the goverment shot that reform down.

Necromancer wrote:

Because its so obvious to anyone who has paid attention in the past few years that Ireland has become an extremly rich country and that its time to stop "tightening our belts". We were asked by successive governments to make many sacrifices "to make the country great" and that when that day came we would get the services we as citizens deserve. This time has come.

There are an awful amount of problems still to address, Health and Secondary/Primary education should be brought up to Northen-European levels. Our wealth is new to us so we have some work to do before we reach the levels of progress seen in other EU states, but I do believe that for our size and history we are doing well and that we will eventually get there.

Necromancer wrote:

You cant charge some and not others to avail of their basic rights. Fee education for all I say. If there was a equitable tax system in this country however the rich would be paying more towards the provision of this education than the poor.
If you look at the current requirments for a grant (or our current tax bands) and imagine then that "only the rich pay fees". Nearly everybody would have to fork out for fees!

Rich people will then leave the country and withdraw their funds from the Irish economy. Bono et all won't pay 90% tax. No the rich pay for education while the poor don't; I think that's a better system.

Necromancer wrote:

It is my belief that it is the responsibility of the state to provide its citizens with the services and security it can.
That put simply means that I believe that there should be a high quality of Public transport, education and health care affordable to all. Yes some can afford to pay more for these than others but I dont think it wise to charge ppl more for the use of them. Is a super rich person likely to use dublin bus? Not really.

It is my belief that you won't be paying for Paradise On Earth by cash, cheque Necromancer?

Necromancer wrote:

So we should deduct the costs of these services at source, tax! But we do that already and if you ask me, tax is too high
WE have a relativly low level of tax compared to France or scandanavia and yet it is these counties we constantly benchmark our services against.
Secondly we have one of the largest divides between rich and poor in the world due to very questionable taxation policies.

So you want free education for all and basically world class Health, Education, Public Transport for lower Tax rates then countries who are struggling to pay for their Welfare systems are paying? Well I've been won over Necromancer. You are obviously on the ball, wish you were running the country. It would be sunshine lollypops and other sweet things 24 hours around the clock and it would all be free...from the lollypop fairy :rolleyes:

Ste.phen

I always thought the best idea was to have students pay alarge yearly fee, and have that refunded (well, sans registration fees), at the end of the year if they passed the year.

One of the main points people raise when saying we should bring back college fees, is that people who drop out mid-year are not only taking up a place on a course that could be better used, but they just wasted a whole years worth of tuition fees.

*shrugs*

I may not be back here for a while to respond to this, but hey, thats my opinion, I dont think this "not paying anything but the 800" stuff is good, but i think my idea would do something towards stopping the very high dropout and failure rates in our colleges?

OfflerCrocGod

Igy wrote:

I always thought the best idea was to have students pay alarge yearly fee, and have that refunded (well, sans registration fees), at the end of the year if they passed the year.

I like that, that's a good idea. The only problem being people who can't pay for fees in the first place would never be able to pay this lump sum even if they were to get it back at the end of the year. The only people who could do this would be people who could afford Uni anyway.....actually I think your idea needs some work

Töpher

I think the basis for awarding grants is a bit ridiculous. For the last few years my folks business was losing money like water, but because there was no "fixed loss" per month, I was not entitled to a grant and required to pay the €700+ registration fees (as opposed to the €30 fees that comes with the grant!). Thankfully they're no longer running it, but now have no form of income whatsoever, and I'm still forking out truckloads of cash where people from the likes of Foxrock and Dundrum are being thrown money for no logical reason, w00t!

Ste.phen

Einst&#252 wrote: »

I think the basis for awarding grants is a bit ridiculous. For the last few years my folks business was losing money like water, but because there was no "fixed loss" per month, I was not entitled to a grant and required to pay the €700+ registration fees (as opposed to the €30 fees that comes with the grant!). Thankfully they're no longer running it, but now have no form of income whatsoever, and I'm still forking out truckloads of cash where people from the likes of Foxrock and Dundrum are being thrown money for no logical reason, w00t!

I notice you didnt say "ballsbridge" or "blackrock"
any particular reason?

Ste.phen

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

I like that, that's a good idea. The only problem being people who can't pay for fees in the first place would never be able to pay this lump sum even if they were to get it back at the end of the year. The only people who could do this would be people who could afford Uni anyway.....actually I think your idea needs some work

OK, OK, so i'll never be an economist, but it does piss me off how many people ahve their university paid for only to drop out halfway through their first year.
These people shouldnt have gone to college in the first place, and should have to damn well pay.

*angry face*

pretty*monster

Saying that university should be free just because it's a right is ridiculous. Food and shelter are rights but if you can afford them you have to cough up and people seem to think that that's fair enough. Obviously if you can't afford to pay fees the government should help you but I don't think the government has any responsibility to those who can afford it.

Another thing, the government clearly have some crazy method of deciding who gets grants. I know a lot of people who are spending their grant money on cds, games etc cos mummy and daddy are covering their college expenses.

On a side note, anyone heard of NDA (north Dublin access) it's a scheme whereby people who didn't get the points are being given places just because they're from "disadvantaged backgrounds".

Syth

pretty*monster wrote:

Saying that university should be free just because it's a right is ridiculous. Food and shelter are rights but if you can afford them you have to cough up and people seem to think that that's fair enough.

The government gives you the dole if you don't have a job, so if you're stuck you're not totally cut off.

pretty*monster wrote:

Obviously if you can't afford to pay fees the government should help you but I don't think the government has any responsibility to those who can afford it.

Another thing, the government clearly have some crazy method of deciding who gets grants. I know a lot of people who are spending their grant money on cds, games etc cos mummy and daddy are covering their college expenses.

Agreed. But again everyone will say that their parents give them no money. How do you think that should be dealt with?

pretty*monster wrote:

On a side note, anyone heard of NDA (north Dublin access) it's a scheme whereby people who didn't get the points are being given places just because they're from "disadvantaged backgrounds".

That sounds like a bunch of bull. Don't forget that there is Howth on the northside and tallagh on the southside.

AngelofFire

Saying that university should be free just because it's a right is ridiculous

Free education adds to social mobility, allowing more people from all sorts of backgrounds to achieve their potential.Society benefits.

Another thing, the government clearly have some crazy method of deciding who gets grants. I know a lot of people who are spending their grant money on cds, games etc cos mummy and daddy are covering their college expenses.

Maybe some of them do, problem is the local authorities have a crap system of means testing, The system of allocating grants should really be transfered to the department of social and family affairs where they have a very well developed means testing system.Maybe the department of family affairs would pay them on time, having to wait until late october is rediculous.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

AngelofFire

I go to college for free, I'd prefer if we had fees, I don't think it makes sense nor is the current standard of education sustainable while 'free fees'

the reason why its not sustainable is because our spending on education as percentage of GDP is one of the lowest in the EU. Given the fact that we are looking at the prospect of a 2.5 billion surplus, increasing spending in all sectors of education is more than viable.

Again this statement doesn't make sense. Free education for people from disadvantaged backgrounds does make sense, free education for people who can afford it doesn't make sense.

,

it depends on whether you value education as a comoditte(like they do in america) or as a right.In my view education is not something that should be bought or sold, it should be provided. makes perfect sense to me.

I'd prefer if we had fees

Kinda strange coming from a college student why would you want to pay for something you can get for free.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Gaijin

How about with that idiotic statement? :eek:

I don't mean to get personal but for god's sake...

No one is suggesting that transport or such things should be free.

No-one in their right mind would(however if a student cant afford transport costs should they not be helped?, I've seen some scum get on buses with a free pass why not a student?)

That statement strikes me as over the top and purely argumentative

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Stabshauptmann

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

All Primary and Secondary education is 100% free. Third level is massively subsidized and for most people it's free, the fact that not everyone is getting a grant to spend during the year on various expenses is not something that's causing concern at Secondary and Primary level.

When calculating cost, the 2nd principal of economics springs to mind. The cost of soething is what you give up for it. There is direct costs such as fees (which one doesnt have to pay for primary and secondary) there are the indirect costs such as books, uniforms, transport etc. and there are opportunity costs, what else could you be doing with the time and effort you put into education.
Looking at education this way, primary and secondary education isnt free.

Yes third level is subsidized, not as much as secondary and primary but then again the costs are higher. No dispute there. But when you say not everyone gets the grant, very few ppl get the grant. And those who get the grant will tell you how useless it is. One of the things im disputing is the effectiveness of the current level of subsidization.

Of course at that age you have your parents to take care of you....by Third level you should be an adult therefore capable of taking care of yourself.

Perhaps somebody doing Arts with 15 hrs a week could get a part time job. Courses such as commerce or particularly engineering dont allow alot of free time.

I'm not saying that grants are wrong I do want free access to Third level education to all capable students I just don't think everyone should have cheques written out to them when the money could be spent on more important things.

No Im not advocating grants for all either nor do I get the feeling you oppose grants. I believe though that not enough get grants and that for those who do get it its not enough.

I'm not disputing that fact it's just that the money could also be spend on other things like our Health system or Pensions or improving our terrible road system or building proper schools for Primary school kids who are still being taught in pre-fab buildings or a million other projects.

I listed similar priorities Health, Education, Transport and security. While education may not deserve 100% of the state budget it desrves more than the 5.9 per cent of GNP it currently gets.

Why should we the healthiest, fittest, most employable people in the state get funds above the rest?

I would have thought a post grad has better employment prospects than an 18 year old fresher. The oppurtunitys should be open to all. College has a huge opportunity cost as regards to employment, reminds me of another of the 10 principals of economics, ppl respond to incentives. If college life is going to be too hard/expensive ppl wont do it.

Oh and funding everything is a pipedream, some people will complain about the 99% tax rates.

Im not suggesting funding the local cinema.

Universities are not in the business of being businesses. Some R&D can have commercial applications a lot on the other hand is rubbish - it just acts as teaching material. Most funding in Ireland for major Post-Grad/Lecturer projects comes from SFI not companies. When companies see the level of investment being put in to our education system they see Ireland as a good country to work in, creating jobs and wealth for the population when they move here. The money being invested into R&D is valuable as a tool to attract foreign investment.

What Im saying is that R&D is human capital, scientific discoveries and progress benifit society as a whole and thus society should pay=state funding.
I also said that companies often benifit from such R&D and thats why I sugested companies pay.

I live on €35 a week easily. Many people who go to UCD don't need grants ( 60% came from private schools ) the fact that people who can easily afford to pay for college get it for free is a great waste. People whose family can easily afford it should pay. As Syth said the rich should pay, they don't need the free ride.

It doesnt make economical sense to penalize wealth. Equity in society should be exacted as early as possible and in a uniform way, taxation, there are good reasons for this but I suggest you jst borrow my textbook because Id only be quoting huge chunks.

This was about to happen last year but it was protested againts by lots of well of kids in UCD ( remember that? ) so the goverment shot that reform down.

Like I said, this governments motives arn't in the public interest.

There are an awful amount of problems still to address, Health and Secondary/Primary education should be brought up to Northen-European levels. Our wealth is new to us so we have some work to do before we reach the levels of progress seen in other EU states, but I do believe that for our size and history we are doing well and that we will eventually get there.

I feel we are moving further to the right, that we are adopting a more capitalist system that a mixed economy. I dont believe things are about to get better re: our public services.

Rich people will then leave the country and withdraw their funds from the Irish economy. Bono et all won't pay 90% tax.

I didnt suggest 90%, somewhere around 60% like alot of us paid in the 80s should suffice.

No the rich pay for education while the poor don't;I think that's a better system.

I suggesting a more descrete way of doing this on sounder economic principals, easier to implement and with more all round benifits. Reform of the tax system is my agenda.

It is my belief that you won't be paying for Paradise On Earth by cash, cheque Necromancer? ;)So you want free education for all and basically world class Health, Education, Public Transport for lower Tax rates then countries who are struggling to pay for their Welfare systems are paying? Well I've been won over Necromancer. You are obviously on the ball, wish you were running the country. It would be sunshine lollypops and other sweet things 24 hours around the clock and it would all be free...from the lollypop fairy :rolleyes:

France isnt a scandanavian country, its beside germany, its hard to miss, its the largest counrty in western europe (just thought id return some of the sarcasm and helpfull comments that your summery had).
Whats interesting about France is that the right which is now in power is destroying a system which was implemented by the left and has been working fine for decades. Again I could talk about economics and altering the factors of "the invisible hand".
In scandanavia where political conditions have remained stable the system is still working fine.
Why should one of the wealthies countries in the world have anything less than world class Health care?

What exactly I said was "We have a relativly low level of tax compared to France or scandanavia and yet it is these counties we constantly benchmark our services against."

Taxation in the Republic, as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), is 28 per cent, compared to an EU average of 40.5 per cent.
Europe has better public servies than Ireland. Even france on its down hill slump is providing better services. If raising our tax to the europeen average would give us services on the eurpeen average then that is what Id like to see happen.
Ive read papers by leading economists detailing how we could raise tax revenue by introducing more bands and we could infact reduce the tax liability of the majority of ppl with nobody paying more than 60%.
It had a very strong impression on me.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Gaijin

"No but the costs of Transport for a year getting to and from college for me are very comparable to the cost of the registration fee, so surely that's just as big a barrier to me going to college. Why shouldn't that be free? And free for all in fact"

Im assuming(from your previous posts) that you can afford the cost of going to college and that you could if fee's were re-introduced. If so, by your own standards then no you shouldn't get free transportation

Im fully aware that we are in fact agreeing on the point of helping those who cannot afford the cost of university. But the general consensus on this thread seems to be that it's not so clear cut as to who should be aided and who shouldn't. I do believe that the current system of means testing and grant entitlements is unfair and incorrect. That a lot more people should be entitled to grants and are not. Also there are people receiving grants who should not be.

As to "free transport for all", is that really feasible? It would be great but wouldn't really work out. Free for those who cannot afford it, sure, but not for everyone.

I don't believe that anyone here or indeed any student would say "I should get free transport,I should get free clothes, everything I need should be handed straight to me" (or along the lines of grandpa simpson only, "im young...gimie gimie gimie!)

I do however believe it is perfectly reasonable for students to expect that fee's should be free. There are those who can afford to pay, there are those who can just about afford to pay but its a struggle and there are those who could easily get mumsie to pay. The trouble is determining who can & can't.
A reorganisation of the tax system (i.e taxing people appropriately) could fund third level(fee's anyway)

Why should you pay for those free loading hippie students I hear you say?
Well because third level education IS a right not a privilage(i can't remember who said the opposite) There are plenty of other things that come out of your tax that don't directly benefit you. Besides people aren't living in retched poverty because they are part funding university fee's.

So in summary of a very long post... :eek:
Yes fee's should be free
But I would agree with you that there are certain limits to what can be provided to students...but I think common sense would tell you that the state isn't going to provide students with the latest o'neills tracksuit bottoms

AngelofFire

The difference is that I realise (unlike most students) that nothing comes for free. The money to fund the colleges has to come from somewhere, and I'd rather have the people going to college spend the money rather than every taxpayer contribute.

In a cohesive society certain things must be paid for collectively. It is in everyones interest that education is well funded by the exchequer, it gaurantees that society can continue to function and that everybody can achieve their human potential. If you dont want your taxes going towards paying for education then you dont want a future for your children.

The money to fund the colleges has to come from somewhere

So does the 400 million earmarked for the greyhound and bloodstock industry, but i dont hear you complaining about that.

How about Transport to and from college, should the government pay for that too?

Its already well subsidised, i pay 12euro per week for unlimted travel on dublin bus. Im not arguing extreme collectivisation here, but its also interesting that you`re arguing an extreme free market as a mechanism of countering any form of collectivisation.

OK, so you oppose Fees, but what's so abhorrent about Government backed student loans, or a Graduate Tax?

Since introduced in australia, it has detered people from going to university. Graduate students are faced with the prospect of being Aus$10,000 in debt. In ireland the levels of debt are high enough as it is, most first time buyers need a combined income of €90,000 to be able to afford a shack in dublin, imagine if added to that they had to pay 10,000 euro of a student loan.The best way for the rich to pay for college is to introduce higher bands for those earning >€150,000, they`re hardly going to notice the extra 4 or 5 percentage points.

Syth

Necromancer wrote:

Ive read papers by leading economists detailing how we could raise tax revenue by introducing more bands and we could infact reduce the tax liability of the majority of ppl with nobody paying more than 60%.
It had a very strong impression on me.

Interesting. How could one get said papers and/or find out more information about that theory?

As for the free transport thing, I think that should be part of your grant application. That way of you need it, it should make you more likely of getting a grant, or if like me, you cycle in, and hence have no transport costs, then it shouldn't matter.

OfflerCrocGod

Rally The Troops was taken literally I see