OT?Blowing for Columbine

Irishglockfan

Anti gun media darlings Micheal Moores film Bowling for Columbine is on RTE 2 [surprise,surprise]on Fri at 21;30.

Well what can I say about it.Moores "factual documentary" is riddled with lies,assumptions,half truths,clipped and edited films and sweeping generalisations.One that springs to mind is the Charlie Heston "from my cold dead hands" NRA speech that supposedly happened a week after Columbine. It was at the NRA convention in Boulder,Colorado a year BEFORE.

Strange thing about this film being shown here is;it was the least watched film in the cinemas this year,the least rented film this year,it takes RTE about three to four years to show a pouplar film.Yet this one is on within a year?? Hmmm... call me paranoid...but...is there a connection???.
Watch it and then have a look at two websites moorelies.com and moorewatch.com to get an alternative view on Michael Moore and his "documentary".

Why you should watch this tripe,is the fact that alot of people take this as gospel as to "what happens in gun nut america",and what goes there with guns must apply here as well.It is an exellent arguement destroyer if you can point out the glaring holes in the film by having both sides of the story.Remember this is also a man who stood up on a sinn fein platform in Belfast last year and declared it was OK for the IRA to keep their guns to drive the British out of Ireland. Double standards or what??

Wonder will RTE2 ever show "Innocence betrayed "a film made to show the pro gun side in the same style of Moores"wity&humourous" documentary.I dont think i'll hold my breath on that.

RuggieBear

my friend, while i don't agree with your position,it's yours to have, but a word of warning

i think you might get a lot of negative feedback and if you are not careful it will decend intoa flame war :eek:

Sparks

Okay. Brief moderator message on this one. The debate over the film's inaccuracies (and there are many) is fine, how target shooting and hunting is portrayed in the film is fine. But the whole topic of using firearms for self-defence (a major part of the film) is outside the charter of the forum, and as we all know, owning a firearm for self-defence in Ireland is not permitted with a very, very, very few exceptions, and actually using one for that purpose is at best a gray area, and more realistically it's just going to get you arrested for using unreasonable force. The forum's here for things related to target shooting of all kinds and hunting, so let's leave that particular can of worms well alone.

That said, I've never watched the film and I've got a mild interest in seeing it - but I don't think it's going to do my blood pressure much good. Not because of how it portrays target shooters, or firearms in general, but because I don't agree with how children were villianised by the US school system after Columbine, and from what I've heard, I don't think the film covers that in any great detail, by either side of the guns/no-guns divide. As is usually the case when confrontational tactics kick in, the real solution for a problem gets lost in the cross-divide rhetoric and aggression and manouevering.

As to the query as to whether there's a reason it's been shown so soon after release, well, popular films cost more to air on TV soon after release, unpopular ones don't. So yes, there's a connection - just not one that should inspire paranoia.

Davey Devil

Irishglockfan wrote:

Strange thing about this film being shown here is;it was the least watched film in the cinemas this year,the least rented film this year,it takes RTE about three to four years to show a pouplar film.Yet this one is on within a year?? Hmmm... call me paranoid...but...is there a connection???.

What are you talking about, a connection to what?? Furthermore the film was released in Ireland in late 2002 nearly a full 2 years ago and was one of the largest grossing documentaries ever shown in Irish cinemas.

Of course it was one of the least watched films in Irish cinemas this year, I doubt it was on in any of them. You might have heard of a film called Fahrenheit 9/11? I'd say people were probably busy watching that instead.

Call you paranoid?? How could anyone not with your crazy agruement or lack there of. If it's people like you who represent pro-gun culture in Ireland then I'm glad there's people like Micheal Moore to highlight what harm guns can do in the wrong hands.

Sparks

Four posts in and we're already standing on the line dividing debate and discussion from ad hominem and flamewars. Let's take a big step back please...

Irishglockfan

Dont worry Sparks
this will be my last comment on this;sorry I brought it up.It seems to be too much for some of our more juvenile members to handle in a rational arguement or discussion,without going down to casting asperations on ones competance with firearms.
But I will try to explain the point to those who might not have read the other arguements .
I belive RTE 2 and 2FM is not very pro gun going by it's slant on covering gun issues.It is mostly the liberal US media anti gun type reporting.And I think it is unusual that RTE who is usually four years behind the times with films,can suddenly pull this out of the hat within a year or two of general relase,and Most importantly just when handguns and large calibre stuff is making a comeback.
Does that not seem a bit coincedental???
Bowling was rated as the biggest loss in Limerick when it was shown.so I doubt it did any better anywhere else.
Just what has Moores fareheint 9/11 got to do with this debate anyway.?A straw arguement
Anyway i'll shut up now. Sorry for upsetting anyones comfort zones.

Davey Devil

Why do you doubt that it did better anywhere else? As I said in my previous post it's one of the highest grossing documentries ever shown in Ireland, that is fact.

I was making the point about Fahrenheit 9/11 because you said that Bowling had done poorly in the cineams this year. I was pointing out the Bowling wasn't on Irish screens this year Moore's new film Fahrenheit 9/11 was.

Why are you so afraid of people seeing this film, can't they make up their own minds for themselves?

Irishglockfan

Not afraid of anyone watching it.Pointing out that it is anti gun and that there is a hidden agenda behind it ,and that there is a alternative of information to it and that it will be taken by the uninformed about guns as the gospel about the gun situation in the USa and therefore here by default.
Have you any verifiable proof to counter my claim about it being a flop??
Why are you so supportive of this film???You got a financial intrest in it?Or is it your idea of the truth about gun ownership?? and do you generally post insulting/abuseive comments on things or people you dont agree on?

FX Meister

Maybe it's the least watched film in the cinema this year because it was in the cinema two years ago?

²°°³webkev²°°³

everything in the movie is true
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

Irishglockfan

And heres two that says it is all Bullmanure
www.moorelies.com
www.moorewatch.com

Davey Devil

Irishglockfan wrote:

that it will be taken by the uninformed about guns as the gospel about the gun situation in the USa and therefore here by default.

Everything that happens in the USA happens here by default?? I think Irish people are clever enough to make their own minds up.

Have you any verifiable proof to counter my claim about it being a flop??.

It is indisputable. A quote from rte after a quick search: "Moore's last feature 'Bowling for Columbine' was also a huge commercial success in Ireland, which was unprecedented for a documentary theatrical release."

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2004/0716/moorem.html

Why are you so supportive of this film???You got a financial intrest in it?Or is it your idea of the truth about gun ownership?? and do you generally post insulting/abuseive comments on things or people you dont agree on

Do you really think I have financial interest?? RTE is a business. They show films they think will be popular and in turn they get advertising revenue. There is no conspiracy theory. Furthermore I'd like you point out where I have made insulting/abusive comments.

FX Meister

Ahh they are the sights of gun lovers, I wouldn't believe their tripe, I'm sure they feel it was just to invade Iraq and take over. American=21st Century Nazis.

RuggieBear

is there any such thing as a non biased website/movie/article/etc when it comes to guns? it's one of those wedge type issues, innit?


Personally, i dont think this is the right forum for this argument, altho i'll assume most regulars here will be gun users. I don't like the idea of handguns and i don't believe everybody has the right to bear arms but id accept that guns are a very neccessary tool for many people.

Why are you a fan of Glocks, Irishglockfan?

FX Meister

I know if I had a gun for home protection I think I'd prefer a hand gun.

RuggieBear

FX Meister wrote:

I know if I had a gun for home protection I think I'd prefer a hand gun.

Shouldn't need one for home protection tho....

FX Meister

I know I shouldn't need one, but if I lived in the states I would probably own one.

RuggieBear

would that be the climate of fear that Moore was on about....?

Irishglockfan

Call you paranoid?? How could anyone not with your crazy agruement or lack there of. If it's people like you who represent pro-gun culture in Ireland then I'm glad there's people like Micheal Moore to highlight what harm guns can do in the wrong hands.[/QUOTE]

I would consider that abusive.
Do you know anything about me?Who I am?what I shoot?how good i am?
how bad I am?Where I have hunted or shot?Frankly I think if you dont know anything about me do you have a right to comment?

no I would think that most Irish people who dont know anything about guns would take this as gospel that most gun owners are the same anywhere.and especially that is how it is in America,when most are ignorant about the most basic matters of gun laws in the US.I dont know how many times I have heard that you can buy"machineguns" in a gun store in the USA.Oh !it was on TV and TV especially a liberal hollywood director wouldnt lie to us???? i mean he got an oscar for it[and was boooed off the stage as well]Righhhhtttt!!1

To answer your point.You seem to be such a fan of Mr Moore and his works I would assume you had an investment in his "productions" seeing that you get very het up if anyone critizes his films.

As I am Irish/American /German I would consider FX meisters abusive comment on americans =nazis downright insulting and racist,and I am calling on our moderator to demand a retraction and apology from FX for that.I would expect some sort of utterance like that on indymedia or some other board not on a board dealing with shooting.I would seriously question anyone who spews such racist garbage to be allowed to own anything more leathl than a feather duster.Do you know that to call somone nowadays in Germany a Nazi is a crime punishable by five years in jail.it is a highly racist and insulting term to anyone who is German
I would call on any other people on this board who are Irish,German or American to contact Sparks that this person is censured.

Ruggie
the reason i like Glocks ,is I own one ,I like it's ergonomics,its design seems suited to a left hooker .It is very rugged and reliable and shoots well straight out of it's box without hanging a ton of accessories onto it or needing the attention of a gunsmith.I have carried it in a "professional" capacity and so do alot of others.it is in a variety of calibres and sizes.All in all I find it an exellent pistol
my favs are glock 17 9mm, Para ordanance p13 45 Browning hi power P35 the last two i have had to customise with ambidexterous slide releases safties,etc
The glock makes that all unnecessary.It has its faults,heavy trigger,and somtimes if you grip it wrong you can release the mag catch . Sites are not target ,but can be replaced with what you fancy.

RuggieBear

Irishglockfan wrote:

I have carried it in a "professional" capacity and so do alot of others.

ahh...That's fair enough! Not many people in Ireland need to carry them to work....

heggie

I'm sure RTE showing the film has nothing to do with some uber liberal agenda (i mean cmon, RTE???) and more to do with aquiring rights to show it. You will find that the 'smaller' more independant films arrive on tv a lot quicker than your hollywood blockbuster.

And, why should RTE/2FM be pro gun? who should ever be pro gun? The law in this country does not allow personal firearms for the most part.

Whatever you think of Michael Moore, the film raised some interesting points (regardless of the box office results, and since when has Limerick become the centre of the universe ?. I'm sure it was a flop in Beijing too). The media in America do push FEAR FEAR FEAR over and over again, you just need to watch cbs or abc news some night, (something which I noticed before the film was made).

I think you need to respect other peoples opinions, instead of responding back with ignorant comments, WHat do you have a financial interest in the production of guns?? DO YOU ??? HUH ?

If you are going to make statements about an issue like this, you have to be open to read responces, otherwise whats the point? Remember you'll never get back the time of your life it took you to write that post and read these replies. Learn from it

Davey Devil

Sounds to me like your loosing your temper IrishGlockfan, not the type of person I'd like to see with the responsibilty of being in possession of a gun.

Irishglockfan

Errr No if you wanted a homedefence gun those in the know would recommend a short barrelled pump shotgun with no 7 load.A handgun takes alot of practise to be profiecent with especially in a HD life or death situation.However this is now totally OT this subject.
Yes you shouldnt need any home defence guns here or anywhere else.BUT that lays with our politicos and police forces to deal with,and they are under no obligation to protect you,just uphold the law.

Yes you can live in the USA without any firearms,just move to NewYork city,Washington DC,or Chicago or San Fransisco and you will be living in cities that prohibit private gunownership even more than here.So you will just need to live in a secure neighbourhood, like where Clinton lives have private security,[armed] about 20 locks on your doors,and live in total fear.Needless to say the bad guys dont have this problem when they need firearms.

heggie

lol, have u ever been to America ???

Irishglockfan

Heggie
Yes I have.you ever been to Ireland???ROTFLAMO

Is it too much to ask for a neutral comment in RTE on news?They usually are on everything else.Apart from the Irish political scene.
well,it certainly got more airtime than most blockbusters European wide
Everyone even Americans will tell you the media over there is crap.Well considering that Murdoch ownes about one third of it and what could you expect?Whats new?
.I also didnt start off by calling anyones capability or implying their [in]competance into question ,and if you want to comment there is a more mature way than insulting people.Am always open to differing opinions and debate.I dont like being insulted,as I doubt anyone does.I dont expect everyone to be 100% in agreement with anything I say,but is it too much to ask for a politely worded arguement/discussion?
I would be perfectly entitled to comment on Mr devil,and his attitudes,but I wont drag myself down to his level.

Yes I would if i had the money buy stocks and shares in the arms industries.Second largest traded commodity on this planet. Your point being ???

Where is your centre of the universe BTW??

Ruggie,no thankfully we dont need to.Somtimes I wonder tho

heggie

1: i never insulted you

2: it is not the 2nd largest commodity

3: i never said dublin was

4: wtf?

Irishglockfan

Heggie
1]I never said that YOU did

2] last authenticated figs I have put it in 1985 on arms spending at $1TRILLION USD world wide.[US arms control and disarment agency] 20 years later est unconfirmed $18TRILLION USD
top three traded commodities Oil,wheat,arms[ok third you win] and illicitly drugs

3]Edited post,Dublin isnt[although i think it thinks it is]

4]wtf???
comment to huggie,scroll back

RuggieBear

Ruggie,no thankfully we dont need to.Somtimes I wonder tho

Still....it is Limerick you are in innit?!?

Irishglockfan

Hoi! You shlaggin us Limerick folk are ya Sham??

In reality it's not as bad as "Dooblin". It is a family drug related fued and has been going on since the eighties.Just got nastier when the money allowed the gurruriers to aquire illegal firepower,and move up from stanley blades and the bread knife.Most of the key players are now dead,in the nick or in England somwhere.It is mostly now just heads firing warning shots at each other.
Lived and worked in some nasty places in my time,and Limerick is a law abiding safe place compared to some.Yet now it has a perversely underserved dangerous reputation.Courtsey of Dublin media with that "stab city" comment all those years ago.[Another reason I mistrust the media]

RuggieBear

Irishglockfan wrote:

Hoi! You shlaggin us Limerick folk are ya Sham??

In reality it's not as bad as "Dooblin". It is a family drug related fued and has been going on since the .......

......Courtsey of Dublin media with that "stab city" comment all those years ago.[Another reason I mistrust the media]

Yea...i know but it's just too easy for a cheap rise!!!

Irishglockfan

Nahhh...wont respond.it will only cause more unpleasentness,ill feeling and generally put folks out of sorts even more.
And we all got work in the AM.

Sparks

Good grief. Guys'n'gals, I specifically asked people to step back from the line, not over it. And the firearms-for-self-defence stuff is right out - you simply cannot get a firearm in the Republic for that purpose, with very few exceptions (I believe there are less than a dozen Personal Protection Weapons in the Republic right now); and the self-defence aspect is outside the charter for this forum. So that can of worms shouldn't have been opened at all - in fact I specifically asked people not to. And I don't even know where to begin with the Nazi comment, since I can't even make out what the sentence is saying due to poor grammar.

In short, I don't think there's anything to be gained by continuing this thread, and I'd probably wind up having to ban people if it went on any longer. So thread closed.