"Kids could Sue schools in the future"

omnicorp

The Irish times has a front page article stating that kids could sue the schools and government in the future for failing to provide proper educational facilities such as PE halls, proper heating &Lightung, plumbing, working sanitation, non-leaky ceilings and outdoor facilities.

I say, (And we all know what I say) About f****** time.
No longer are the Children the overlooked non-voting pawns they once were.
I am curreently involved in a campaign to get proper seating facilities for my school and I found by surveying all of 1st, 2nd and 3rd years that 72% of students DON'T trust the Dep. of Education to fund schools properly.

The government wastes money on electronic voting, red-tape and decentralisation and can't even provide funding for proper educational facilities.

I lost my last shred of hope for this present government whan they and Labour and Fine Gael were involved in purposeful derailing of a democratic election by TELLING their ministers to vote against Dana Rosemary Scallon.

I was wondering are any other people in agreement with me that the Government is treating schools and children badly since they can't vote?

omnicorp

And a link may be useful
www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2004/1004/1457490187HM1STUDENTSUE.html

ishmael whale

omnicorp wrote:

........The government wastes money on electronic voting, red-tape and decentralisation and can't even provide funding for proper educational facilities.........I was wondering are any other people in agreement with me that the Government is treating schools and children badly since they can't vote?

No, I don’t think that’s the reason. Children may not vote but their parents do, and generally they have a close interest in their offsprings’ education.

There’s simply a lack of strategic direction to the country. Why? One reason is possibly governments don’t see the point in investing in something where the benefits will not be felt until long after the next election. So they throw money at things like e-voting and decentralisation on the basis that if they make enough noise they might be able to create an appearance of having achieved something.

Re. The aspect of children suing the schools.

The Primary school that I went to is being sued by the parents of a child who broke her wrist helping a teacher to lift a school bench. Now the child hurt (sprained) her wrist in the school. Thats accepted. What came out later in court was that the child broke her wrist at home, and the parents blamed it on the school. The first court case was ruled in favour of the school, and then the parents appealed, and the second court also ruled against the family.

This is the problem. Schools are becoming weak against legal cases made by families. This school was lucky, since the child under questioning told the court that the wrist broke at home (much to the anger of the parents). Other schools won't be so lucky. And lets face it, theres a fair number of poorer families that will sieze the chance to make some money this way, even to the point of injuring their own children, and blaming the school.

And before anyone asks for links. I'm not going to. My family works at the school, and this is shown as a real life example.

omnicorp

Ithink people should sue the government if they want to sue over poor facilities.

My school lacks:
proper seating facilities for 1st - 3rd years
PE
Music
money for heating
among others...

Ithink people should sue the government if they want to sue over poor facilities.

It strikes me that nowadays when people have so much more tangible cash in their pockets, they'd be willing to pay something towards the running of the school. A voluntary cash supplem,ent to schools resources, rather than complaining about the facilities. I've seen the facilities for those given to Travellers, and they're not great. However, by suing the school you make life harder for everyone else, since theres even less money in the budget next year around.

The other side is that its hard to find staff willing to work on the maintenance side for schools. FAS supply a fair amount of staff to schools, but they're lacking a certain drive or desire to work there.

omnicorp, you mentioned Music and PE. Your school doesn't provide the subjects or you don't have the facilities needed for them? Regardless its not really something to sue about. Its something you speak to your educational board or local TD.

seamus

It won't happen, as I will have made solicitors illegal by then, and anyone attempting to bring frivilous lawsuits for things that they're not entitled to, wasting our money, will be chained to the spire on O'Connell St and pissed on by drunks.

Seriously. Perhaps they can sue their parents too for not indentifying that the school was a shambles and aiding towards its development or moving their child to a better school. You cannot (or at least should not be allowed to) sue for something when you have done nothing to rectify the situation. If your school has poor facilities, it's your civic duty to point it out and to hound a public servant until it gets sorted. The Irish all too often bitch and moan about things, do nothing to fix them, then expect compensation or concessions after the fact.

It has to stop.

mycroft

omnicorp wrote:

Ithink people should sue the government if they want to sue over poor facilities.

My school lacks:
proper seating facilities for 1st - 3rd years
PE
Music
money for heating
among others...

I'm trying to figure out Omnicorps funny little world.

An avowed "socialist" who's outraged that a woman who doesn't know the meaning of the word "secular" isn't allowed stand for government.

And someone who feels the best approach to figuring out our school underfunding is to sue the education board.

Kid the only people who will win in your ideal situation are the solicitors. Your education authority will just be forced to build up a legal warchest to defend againist spurious court cases.

omnicorp

No, I think the best option would be at, first a letter to the dep. of Education.
If nothing happens, Send another and if again nothing happens maybe a couple of flyers, then maybe, if nothing happens, approach the local TD in an election year and again if nothing happens, an all-out strike would be neccesary.

Sadly, we have tried all of the above bar the last one over the last 30 years to get a sports hall.

mycroft

omnicorp wrote:

No, I think the best option would be at, first a letter to the dep. of Education.
If nothing happens, Send another and if again nothing happens maybe a couple of flyers, then maybe, if nothing happens, approach the local TD in an election year and again if nothing happens, an all-out strike would be neccesary.

Sadly, we have tried all of the above bar the last one over the last 30 years to get a sports hall.

Okay change your opinion again why don't you. First you say sue now strike? :rolleyes:

omnicorp

well, i'd rather strike... so forget suing.

mycroft

Yes yes they're quaking in their boots.

Do you know what we called "striking" students in my day "mitching"

Thank you for once again posted something utterly irrelevant and then reversing your position after several posts.

Seem to me to be pretty trivial things to be considering suing a school over.

Much more interesting was an article I saw some time ago about a woman from Cork who was attempting to sue a school over extreme bullying she suffered.

I havent seen anything else regarding it. While not bullied heavily myself there were still some uncomfortable moments.

Looking back I feel the school was desperately poor in some respects. One person in my class was badly bullied by a small gang and most of the rest of us did nothing probably because we were just glad it wasnt us....

omnicorp

I think the notion of sueing a school over bullying is stupid, it's the bully's fault. But, granted, the school should do something.

I saw an interesting play in school a couple of days ago...
[Northern Accent] "This is a good school, there's no bullying going on here, it's just some playground rough and tumble..."

Some schools might just be in denial.
Just a thought

what if an assault takes place during a time when a teacher should be present but isn't ....i.e a teacher is absent and the class is left unsupervised?

Surely in this regard the school is clearly negligent and at fault

I think the notion of sueing a school over bullying is stupid, it's the bully's fault. But, granted, the school should do something.

What exactly? teachers can't touch students for fear of being sued or charged with some sexual charge. So that marks teacher intervention out. And the parents aren't the most helpful in the world."" My poor "insert name" would never hurt anyone. ""

So in this nanny state of ours, where any violence or discipline is marked as being unsuitable how do you prevent bullying?

well, i'd rather strike... so forget suing

Funny. Very funny. Thing is..... You're availing of a service. You're not producing anything. So you strike. So what? All you're doing is leaving the one place where you can learn. Whoopee!!!

Swarfboy

Seems to be more personal points being made here than any logical sense...
Yes the article is correct in the "future possibility" fo children suing the state especially for the lack of PE facilities.... Play and exercise are vital parts of physical and emotive growth as set out in the UN's Childs Charter for human rights ... Childrens rights are only just beginning to be recognised globally and it is a trend set to continue..

omnicorp

The fact that they [the Govt.] are whinging about obesity and lack of fitness and why are young people drinking too much and etc, etc., etc...

Then, of course, 80% (also reported in another article in the Irish Times) of rural schools don't have PE facilities not to mention many Urban ones...
They aren't exactly teaching kids that drinking too much is wrong either but that's another story... and harder to deal with.

cleansingfire

To sue a school you have to have suffered some loss as a result of the actions or inactions of the school. That loss must be established clearly as must the responsibility of the school for action or inaction.
Former students of schools can sue now, not in the future, if they feel they have suffered said loss. The action would be taken against the board of management or the VEC or the Dept. of Ed and Science depending on the type of school.
Now to the real issue: why have Irish schools such sad facilities? Because parents and teachers fundraise voluntarily and tolerate the funding they get. If parents groups motivated every parent in school to say their votes go to the party who funds ed. as the number 1 priority then the issue would be resolved. Mind you, it would be wise to get the foreign companies who build roads on time and budget (I think!) rather than the rip off merchants we are familiar with.

Victor

cleansingfire wrote:

Mind you, it would be wise to get the foreign companies who build roads on time and budget (I think!) rather than the rip off merchants we are familiar with.

Actually, the PPP schools (about 5? so far) that exist are more expensive to run (by about ~6%) and take up more of the principal's time.....

omnicorp

I think if the people in Ireland in general pressured the government to spend time and money looking after schools instead of E-Voting and a useless metro we could have a better school system.

gandalf

Am actually a metro and proper transport infrastucture is badly needed. E-Voting is also a good idea. The problem has been the inplimentation of both in this country. No proper planning and not enough sound advice taken on the paths they decided to go.

The issue here is co-ordinated planning, there is no point spending money on education if when the young people have finished their studies to realise that there are no jobs because the transport system in the country is one from the 19th century. Surely if obesity is such a problem the government can integrate the money they give to sporting organisations with proviso's that they work hand in hand with schools to help provide their facilities to them for students use as well (which they do to a limited degree already).

The actual thing that makes me laugh about this is the fact if students start sueing the department who do you think suffers in the long run. The Students do :rolleyes:, As for student strikes the only people who benefit from those are the teachers who will have a few easy days.

ArthurDent

Yeah suing the goverment would be such a constructive thing to do :eek: and then when the case is lost we can make another couple of barristers and solicitors even richer when the state sues for costs - like it did in the case where the parents lost their high court action re their ADHD son.

omnicorp

I do agree with you and I do think there is little point suenig the state or non-profit organisations BUT, I ask, who votes in these people?

Good Citizens who don't vote?
or good but misinformed citizens?

And as an after thought, why are all the people who know how to run the country driving taxis or cutting hair?
[joke!]

I do agree with you and I do think there is little point suenig the state or non-profit organisations BUT, I ask, who votes in these people?

Which people? The ones that create the educational budget for the year, the people who actually spend that budget, or the politicians themselves?

cleansingfire

Victor wrote:

Actually, the PPP schools (about 5? so far) that exist are more expensive to run (by about ~6%) and take up more of the principal's time.....

Actually I wasn't referring to PPP at all. I was referring to the building and design costs of Irish schools under the current system. PPP has been frozen since EU investigation into it and has recently received the go ahead. It is a daft idea and one which the English system has begun to realise is daft.

omnicorp

the Politicisns.
People are complaining about them yet they are somehow getting voted in again.

People are complaining about them yet they are somehow getting voted in again

because there is no alternative. They're all pretty much the same. I don't really complain abt the politicians in Ireland anymore. I'm resigned to the fact that they'll act in their own interests every time. Just as I'm resigned that Irish people as a whole are just too lazy to make the politicians change.

omnicorp

I'm not... if it weren't for age restrictions I'd run for Govt.
Oh. And I succesfully helped replace the health-risky chairs in my classroom.
Not much, but it's a start.

I'm not... if it weren't for age restrictions I'd run for Govt.

Fair enough. Do you aim to do so, when you get to that age, and then be amalgamated into some existing party with its own agenda and internal politics?

Oh. And I succesfully helped replace the health-risky chairs in my classroom.

Good Man.

omnicorp

thank you,
I plan to join a party (Not Fianna Fail or Fine Gael)
And when I learn the ropes, maybe start my own.

luckat

Kids can sue schools now - and proper order, they should be able to have a safe workplace the same way as anyone else. A worker who breaks a wrist or is bullied can sue the employer - why shouldn't a schoolgoer be able to do so?

(Unfortunately, as the cases of children raped by their teachers show, when they sue the schools or the church authorities that run those schools, the people who end up paying are not those responsible, but the taxpayers. This is because the government - and this is true of both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael governments - is under the thumb of the Catholic church. And until the church and the state are decisively separated, you'd have to say that those mad Northerners have a point when they talk about "Rome rule". But this important matter - having a government responsible only to those who vote it in, not to any other body or interest - is unimportant here, it seems, whereas it's a central tenet in Catholic France.)

omnicorp

I think, when a student sues a teacher (or other educator), the educator should pay the costs not the govt. or the school.

Victor

omnicorp wrote:

I think, when a student sues a teacher (or other educator), the educator should pay the costs not the govt. or the school.

What if the educator doesn't have enough money to pay? Is the child with the brain damage after being smacked about by a stressed out teacher meant to go without?

Look up Vicarious liability

omnicorp

well, a jail sentence.... or um... well then I don't know.

Paddyo

I am on the board of management of a small primary school. In fact I am the treasurer. If the school or teacher were to be sued, insurance will cover the costs, once the person being sued has acted in good faith.

What I have found over the years is that the parents who complain loudest are the ones who never involve themselves in any of the activities of the school. They leave little Johnny or Mary at the school gate and try to hive off the complete responsibilty for their child's education to the school.

Of course people have the right to sue. I would hope that it would only happen where real suffering could be shown.


Thank God we have not had any issues with either the school or teacher being sued for anything.

Paddyo

omnicorp

yes. As a matter of interest, does your school have adaquete (damn spelling lessons) PE facilities?
And healthy chairs? (You would be VERY suprised that 71 PERCENT of students at my school complain of back pain from overweight bags and poor seating facilities!

Paddyo

My school has no PE facilities other than an open air basketball court and a fairly large grass playing area. All of the buildings are prefabs.

As regards seating - I have not heard any compaints regarding the seats - we have different sizes for different classes - age groups.

It is a disgrace that some children have to carry such heavy bags. it should be a case of only carrying what is necessary - not all books at all times. If the bag has to be heavy why not get a trolley bag - I know it looks naf, but it might save problems later in life.

Paddyo

It is a disgrace that some children have to carry such heavy bags. it should be a case of only carrying what is necessary - not all books at all times. If the bag has to be heavy why not get a trolley bag - I know it looks naf, but it might save problems later in life.

Oh come on! Thats the responsibility of the parents and the kids involved. Its no way the responsibility of the school.

Paddyo

Hi Klaz

I suppose it depends on what age the child is and if its primary or secondary.
In secondary the pupil knows what subject is going to be taught when. So yes it is there responsibility to only have the required books.

In primary schools, the teacher decides when a particular subject is going to be taught. Usually all of the school books stay in the classroom and only the ones required for home work are brought home. Remember we are also talking about kids from 5 to 11/12 years old and what their teacher says must be done. So I think the school - in this case the teacher - has some responsibility.

Paddyo

Hi Klaz

Wassup, Dog

So I think the school - in this case the teacher - has some responsibility.

Not really. Thats taking the nanny state a bit far. It remains the responsibility of the family to supply anything to help the kids with their books or such. The school/teacher have enough responsibilities without being loaded with that aswell. Regardless, kids aged 5 up to 9 or 10, don't really have that much in the way of books to carry. I know I've seen the books they use. And kids in primary school, can take the weight, and they should.

Personally, I think its mothering kids too much. Sure, after the junior cert or in college when you have 5-6 hardback books, its a pain, and should be helped by lockers on school/college grounds. But anything else apart from that? Nope. Nada.

Victor

Paddyo wrote:

As regards seating - I have not heard any compaints regarding the seats - we have different sizes for different classes - age groups.

The western concept of a flat seat is not anatomically correct (the natural way for "wild" humans to rest is to squat), it should be sloped forward - this is why some people sit on the very edge of the seat.

bonkey

Deleted User wrote:

...Thats taking the nanny state a bit far. It remains the responsibility of the family to supply anything to help the kids with their books or such. ...
Personally, I think its mothering kids too much.

The thing you have to remember, klaz, is that while you are in school, the school have certain legal liabilities concerning you, in the sense that - to some extent - they are considered your gaurdians. (I could be wrong on this, but it was always my understanding).

It is as a direct result of this burden of responsibilty that we see the legal cases that we do - that teachers/schools are found to be remiss in the care of those they are responsible for.

Now, if they have this reponsibility, then it is not simply a case of saying that the parents are the ones responsible, so let them deal with it, or that its a nanny-state question where the state is taking a burden that should be left up to the parents. Of course, by parents, we really mean "those who actually have a direct legal responsibility for the welfare of the child".....

The school has some degree of that legal responsibility, and while it is not a surrogate parent, it is capable of being found wanting in the care that it provides.

Of course, you could remove the legal responsibility from the school, but then that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms as parents would now be leaving children in the care of someone who is no longer legally responsible for them.....so while you might prevent the prosecution the school over something that you consider to the parent's lookout, you could also protect the school from prosecution on far more serious issues given that the parents signed over the care of the child without signing over responsibility..

Maybe I'm wrong in my understanding of the school's responsibility, but if I'm not, then it is not simply a case of saying that looking after those you are responsible for is someone else's responsibility.

jc

omnicorp

Paddyo wrote:

My school has no PE facilities other than an open air basketball court and a fairly large grass playing area. All of the buildings are prefabs.

As regards seating - I have not heard any compaints regarding the seats - we have different sizes for different classes - age groups.

It is a disgrace that some children have to carry such heavy bags. it should be a case of only carrying what is necessary - not all books at all times. If the bag has to be heavy why not get a trolley bag - I know it looks naf, but it might save problems later in life.

Paddyo

First of all, if you sit in one crappy chair for 7 hours, 5 days a week it's going to cause problems.
Secondly, Many of the books are VERY unnescassery, SIX books, BIG BOOKS, for science. why is it not possible to divide many of the bigger books, such as History and geography into smaller volumes?
Thirdly, PE is MORE important than geography, What use is knowing the difference between incline and anticline if you've never gotten to do sports.
Fourthly, IT IS A F******* DISGRACE IF IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT A SCHOOL HAS PREFABS AND NO PE FACILITIES WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WASTES MONEY ON E-VOTING.
Fifthly, People don't complain about seats because we've never beenm thought that it's a serious issue that could lead to problems in later life.

bonkey

omnicorp wrote:

First of all, if you sit in one crappy chair for 7 hours, 5 days a week it's going to cause problems.

You seem to forget that this is what an awful lot of people have done before you, and we don't have an epidemic of bad backs etc. from it. Not only that, but many people continue the practice, and get to sit in crappy chairs for most of their white-collar lives too.

Going one step further, you do not sit in that chair for 7 hours. You have breaks etc. who's whole purpose is to allow you to refresh both body and mind.

I wonder...have you made your parents replace every chair in your house with "proper" ones? No ordinary chairs at the table? No ordinary sofa's or armchairs for watching tv in your house, I hope? And I trust they've also bought you an orthopedic bed. If not, then what in the name of whatever you believe in makes you think that its a school's responsibility to do what your own family won't?

Secondly, Many of the books are VERY unnescassery, SIX books, BIG BOOKS, for science.

All of which are needed every day?

why is it not possible to divide many of the bigger books, such as History and geography into smaller volumes?

Why is it not possible to ask your teacher which science books he/she will use in the next class at the end of each one, so that you immediately get to cut your bookload by FIVE BIG BOOKS!!!

Thirdly, PE is MORE important than geography, What use is knowing the difference between incline and anticline if you've never gotten to do sports.

Because, as we all also know, children do not engage in any physical activity after school, but rather stay home studying geography etc. So if htey don't do PE at school, they'll never get any exercise, but if they don't do geography...its no biggie....they'll learn the same stuff in that free time they spend studying in. :frown:

Fourthly, IT IS A F******* DISGRACE IF IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT A SCHOOL HAS PREFABS AND NO PE FACILITIES WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WASTES MONEY ON E-VOTING.

Sure....but if you see your schooling problems (as opposed to many others like slipping standards of education) as the best use of that money....well....that would be a f******* disgrace as well to be honest.

Fifthly, People don't complain about seats because we've never beenm thought that it's a serious issue that could lead to problems in later life.

Errr....again....see the comments I started with. Where's this flood of problems that you can attribute to these chairs, seeing as every single school-leaver alive in this country today would have had what you would have to classify as sub-standard seating.....

I'd also point out that any study I've ever seen (no links handy...they were paper-based) all concluded that excepting in the most unusual cases, there was no effective risk from "conventional" seating until the mid/late twenties at the earliest.

jc

omnicorp

bonkey wrote:

Going one step further, you do not sit in that chair for 7 hours. You have breaks etc. who's whole purpose is to allow you to refresh both body and mind.
jc

Two, 11 and 1 No in between clkass breaks, the teachers come to us.

Actually the not bringing all the books thing makes sense but.... we HAVE to bring them all or risk essays.

And why shouldn't every school have PE facilities or proper classrooms or is E-Voting more important?

And Geography was an example.

Capt'n Midnight

omnicorp wrote:

I was wondering are any other people in agreement with me that the Government is treating schools and children badly since they can't vote?

Much research has shown that investment in education is most effective at Primary school level, the money goes further and the person can benefit for the rest of their time in the educational system. Compare the amount spent on primaries per student and the amount on third level students and on average the third level students will have left the educational in two years time.

Also not everyone goes on to third level so funding primary is a lot fairer to the taxpayers.

bonkey

omnicorp wrote:

And why shouldn't every school have PE facilities or proper classrooms or is E-Voting more important?

Huh? Maybe you didn't understand the point I made. Allow me to clarify:

E-voting is less important than what you are saying the money should be spent on. I agree. No question.

What you are saying the money should be spent on is, in turn, less important than many other key problems which need to be addressed with our education system.

In short, spending money on your chosen areas (PE and better chairs) would be as big a F***ing disgrace as spending it on evoting would be, if your criteria is that the money should be spent where it is most needed.

jc

omnicorp

well, we COULD spend the money on ALL problems. We are a Very rich country, many people can AFFORD slightly higher taxes. Raise taxes and budget a bit better and all problems could be addressed.

well, we COULD spend the money on ALL problems. We are a Very rich country, many people can AFFORD slightly higher taxes. Raise taxes and budget a bit better and all problems could be addressed.

Right. How much taxes are you paying already? I'm paying a fairly high amount already, and I don't really want to pay any more. This government of ours has a number of stealth taxes which are technically illegal as part of the EU, but they ignore it. Many people may be able to afford higher taxes, but there's just as many people that can't, or are taxed enough already.

Also this country of ours has a fairly high country debt, which doesn't really hold a wonderful insight into how rich we are. Lack of innovation, lowering company setups etc are all indicators that Ireland is not the successful country we all hoped it would be.

Budget better, yes. Raise taxes? Come back to me when you're actually paying them yourself. (not a dig against you personally.)

Paddyo

Deleted User wrote:

Not really. Thats taking the nanny state a bit far. It remains the responsibility of the family to supply anything to help the kids with their books or such. The school/teacher have enough responsibilities without being loaded with that aswell. Regardless, kids aged 5 up to 9 or 10, don't really have that much in the way of books to carry. I know I've seen the books they use. And kids in primary school, can take the weight, and they should.

QUOTE]

Speaking as a parent who sometime has to carry the school bags for 2 children aged 6 and 8 I can assure you that the weight of the bags can be excessive. Sure each book on its own may not amount to much, but put them altogether with copy books, lunch box etc and the weight soon mounts up.

I dont know if you have kids - but I dont want my kids struggling with heavy bags - can you explain why they should?


With regards to the prefabs - they are probably a lot better than some of the normal school buildings out there. They are well maintained and warm. It could be worse. Granted, it could be better and we have just started the procedure - once again - of putting the school on the list for a new school building.

Paddyo