My Analysis of Irelands Railways.

netwhizkid

First off let me state that the purpose of this thread, is to try to discuss with others, the way Irish Rail runs our railways.

Now in my opinion, Ireland is heading towards disaster. Our Cities, towns and villages are choked with traffic and the resulting pollution, Rail is part of the solution to this menacing problem. Ireland only has a tiny rail network, in proportion to our EU counterparts, Trains outside of Dublin are basically once every 3-4hours or Daily, This doesn’t represent the sort of service that could and should be made available to members of the public. At present Irish Rails Inter City service, is slow, cumbersome usually overcrowded and is a complete and total rip-off for an adult return fare.
Take for instance other European countries like Switzerland, They have excellent services on all lines not just those between the Metropolises Like Cork and Dublin. Ireland could have a service 50% better than Switzerland as we don’t have the problem of flat ground being a rarity here. Basically what I’m trying to say is Irish Rail should scrap their express type trains, ie. those that must stop every where along the line, instead buy some new trains run 2 or 3 an hour and stop at every 2nd or 3rd station. Hey presto a better faster improved service. Now I will be chastised “why run so many, they are sure to be empty” they won’t be empty if ticket fares were slashed, and why do we need trains nearly a kilometre long ? run more trains about every 15 mins with between 3 and 6 carriages, less weight bearing down on the loco, less fuel would be used, faster speeds could be attained and with a smaller Train size, breakdowns would be less and maintenance costs would decrease.
Also another point I’d like to make is why don’t Irish Rail but in second tracks where they are needed like the Portarlington to Athlone line anyway should be doubled up, it would allow more services to Galway and the west.

About the western Rail corridor it is a disgrace to see it lying idle. I know it will cost up to €300 million to reopen, so here’s my plan let the Irish Government reopen it, but in place what needs to be done. Then let a private company like Connex operate the serivces, Irish rail could timetable it’s trains to match the connex trains at the interconnecting stations like Ennis and Athenry etc. So when an Ennis bound train would pull into Athenry station an Irish rail train bound for Galway or Dublin could pull in 5 or 10 mins Earlier/later to allow passengers to make use of the Services to the full extent and vice versa. Tickets could be purchased at any Irish Rail or WRC station for services across the Island North & South. A sample fare of say €20 adult return from Ennis to Galway could include a €5 tax on the fares to pay for the WRC reopening so €15 would got to connex and €5 to the Government. Irish Rail could also operate its trains on the WRC until this loan was repaid to the government. They could then compete with each other for passengers and freight on the line.

The same set-up could be applied and used to re-open lines closed like the West-Clare Narrow gauge and the Navan line as well as several others.

Such services on these new lines and revitalised service on existing line could help beat the gridlock on our roads would cut Co2 emissions big time and benefit everyone.

Such services won’t work without 3 things,
A) public- private partnership.
Reduced fares, which equals more passengers = more profit than with original sky high fare.
C) A will between trade unions and management to implement what is needed to make better changers for a brighter future for commuters and our rail network.

Other ways to improve capacity, safety and speed would be to bring in double-decker carraiges such as those Amtrak use in the states. Also scrap traditional signalling and introduce GPS tracking on all trains and remote control over them in Emergencies from a central control room for the entire network. Remove those stupid 20mph speed limits through stations and let trains speed through if not stopping, it can take up to 5mins to pass through some stations which would take about 45seconds if not for those speed limits. Just keep people clear of all platforms until about 5mins before a train due to stop at the station pulls in.

Well this is my analysis of the railways,
I hope it can stir up some could discussion on the subjects raised.

Regards netwhizkid.

John R

1. Your sig is too big http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=60479
2. while your analysis is terribly interesting it has one slight problem, you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Capt'n Midnight

netwhizkid wrote:

Ireland could have a service 50% better than Switzerland as we don’t have the problem of flat ground being a rarity here.
..
Tickets could be purchased at any Irish Rail or WRC station for services across the Island North & South. A sample fare of say €20 adult return from Ennis to Galway could include a €5 tax on the fares to pay for the WRC reopening so €15 would got to connex and €5 to the Government. Irish Rail could also operate its trains on the WRC until this loan was repaid to the government. They could then compete with each other for passengers and freight on the line.
...
Such services won’t work without 3 things,
A) public- private partnership.
...

Other ways to improve capacity, safety and speed would be to bring in double-decker carraiges such as those Amtrak use in the states.

Re Switzerland costs - due to political scams we have the highest cost for land for road building in the EU - that includes Holland who don't have any spare land and higher population density than we have.

Tickets purchased anywhere on the island - try buying through tickets in the UK - it's a nightmare

Private partnership - so far every PPP scheme I've seen in this country has involved a small private investment at a bottleneck, not the main scheme itself which carries you to the bottleneck. So in effect we the taxpayers subsidise the PPP shareholders, a case of the tail being able to wag the dog. It could work - but not unless we sort out the backhanders and imcompetance in contract negotiations.

Reduced fares , yeah Dublin bus is about the only profit making social Bus service in the EU and most of the others get real subsidies. So if they won't support public transport in the capital city and spend 100's of millions on roads instead, what makes you think they'll support the railways.


double decker carriges -bridges etc.

andyhunt

It will not make money. Efficient transport must be seen as an essential public service and increasingly is so in more enlightened countries. Unfortunately the government here seem to think the opposite and therefore the likelihood of WRC (in full from Sligo to Cork) being implimented by them is virtually nil despite the wideranging benefits that would be achieved. Until the unpalatable truth that efficient rail must be subsidised is swallowed we are unlikely to see the development of an even half-decent rail service. Although the cost of the investment would be high the benefits in kind would outweigh the cost in the long-run.

Genghis

I've been using the train daily to make a 45 mile commute each way, and (while certain improvements could be made) I have got to say that Irish Rail offer an overall good service:

Park and Ride - Check
Punctuality, Departing - over 90%
Punctuality, Arriving - approx 60% (:()
Schedule to my station - five trains in 2 hrs out, five trains in 2 hrs back
Cleanliness, etc - Usually excellent
Breakdowns, etc, etc - probably twice in the last year
Cancellations - maybe 4 times in the last year

IMHO the Irish Rail service needs infrastructural investment - join the dots in Dublin; double rail capacity as far as Kildare, Maynooth, Arklow and Drogheda; remove all single lines where they exist; speed up intercity, and add more frequency to key destinations - Cork, Limerick, Waterford / Kilkenny, Galway and Belfast; better integration between Dart / Arrow, so that Intercitys do not need to stop anywhere inside Greater Dublin en route to their destinations.

dmeehan

Why do "InterCity" trains to Kerry stop at the sprawling metropolises of the likes of Banteer?

dowlingm

the same reason "intercity" trains go to Kerry at all (pop. 132,527, 2002, CSO).

By comparison Cork City census area alone is 123,062.

That line should have shuttle service from Tralee to Mallow and Tralee-Farranfore Airport-Killarney and no more, but politics will keep the locos rolling...

dmeehan

the shuttle service might actually be a better service than whats currently available

god forbid people might have to change trains in mallow :rolleyes:

enterprise

dmeehan wrote:

Why do "InterCity" trains to Kerry stop at the sprawling metropolises of the likes of Banteer?

Because Banteer is ONLY served by Heuston - Tralee and Cork - Tralee trains. Considering its on the Mallow - Tralee line WHAT ELSE IS GOING TO SERVE IT? (What a dumb question!)

Plus Banteer offers a wide catchment area to the likes of Kanturk & Newmarket.

enterprise

dmeehan wrote:

the shuttle service might actually be a better service than whats currently available

god forbid people might have to change trains in mallow :rolleyes:

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/general_news.asp?action=view&news_id=46

Dublin – Tralee
Existing through services PLUS shuttle service every two hours Mallow-Tralee connecting with Cork service.

IE do have major plans to upgrade the Kerry line in the coming years. Also I believe that the existing through services SHOULD BE RETAINED.

dmeehan

enterprise wrote:

Because Banteer is ONLY served by Heuston - Tralee and Cork - Tralee trains. Considering its on the Mallow - Tralee line WHAT ELSE IS GOING TO SERVE IT? (What a dumb question!)

Plus Banteer offers a wide catchment area to the likes of Kanturk & Newmarket.

why cant a mallow - tralee shuttle serve it

It was not a dumb question as others have thought it good enough to give good answers. The question I as asking was why do these kerry - dublin/cork trains have to stop in the middle of nowhere. surely this could be better served by a local service with connections at the main stations

Also no need to shout!

P11 Comms

Very Interesting. The Ali G approach to Irish rail transport development.

Connex run the Western Rail Corridor! Sure, there is millions to be made on grannies with free travel passes refilling their holy water bottles at Knock once every six months.

Cheers, best laugh I have had in ages.

enterprise

dmeehan wrote:

why cant a mallow - tralee shuttle serve it

It was not a dumb question as others have thought it good enough to give good answers. The question I as asking was why do these kerry - dublin/cork trains have to stop in the middle of nowhere. surely this could be better served by a local service with connections at the main stations

Also no need to shout!

Just in case you dont know; considering that there is only 4 trains to dublin / cork and 5 from the Mallow / Tralee line aint exactly blessed with a train every 30 minutes.

Also if you were to take out these stops you would save very little time - 5 minutes at most. As I said before these stations just dont serve the village - they have a wide catchment area therefore it is only right that all services stop at the likes of Banteer, Millstreet, Rathmore & Farranfore.

loyatemu

Very Interesting. The Ali G approach to Irish rail transport development.

Connex run the Western Rail Corridor! Sure, there is millions to be made on grannies with free travel passes refilling their holy water bottles at Knock once every six months.

Cheers, best laugh I have had in ages.

are you really the communications officer for P11?
you seem to go out of your way to make sure you're not taken seriously.

I largely agree with P11's objective's but you won't win many more converts with snide comments like this.

MG

That type of thing seems to be P11's style, for some reason. It's very unprofessional, undermines their objectives and loses them a lot of credibility.

netwhizkid

Originally posted by dmeehan
The question I as asking was why do these kerry - dublin/cork trains have to stop in the middle of nowhere. surely this could be better served by a local service with connections at the main stations

Yes i agree, this was one of the points i was trying to make in my first post, These small stations slow down the long distance trains, Eg. trains from kerry to dublin and mayo to dublin, These small stations would be better off with a few diesel commuter cars "the ones without the locos" afaik the arrow runs along similiar lines. These could be timetabled to connect with the express's to the likes of dublin - westport - belfast etc.

Orginally posted by P11 Comms
Connex run the Western Rail Corridor! Sure, there is millions to be made on grannies with free travel passes refilling their holy water bottles at Knock once every six months.

What sort of an attitude is this to take ? Surely would it not be our senior citizens many of whom cannot drive, they are the people along side students & buisness people who would benefit from the WRC re-opening. Any way P11's approach to Lobbying for ireland's railways seems pathetic with those sort of comments, Only a few weeks ago i remember some one claiming to represent P11 saying that the Limerick Junction to Rosslare line should be cut to Clonmel only.

Regards netwhizkid

P11 Comms

"What sort of an attitude is this to take ? Surely would it not be our senior citizens many of whom cannot drive, they are the people along side students & buisness people who would benefit from the WRC re-opening."

I am only telling you to your face what Connex would be thinking. The Western Rail Corridor would be a disaster for rail transport in Ireland if the Coolooney to Limerick version was opened with a branch to Knock Airport. It would not only be astronomical in cost to build, but the massive annual subvention to keep it opened would be the perfect ammo the anti-rail crowd would need as proof that railways should not be invested in.

Same thing for Limerick-Rosslare - this is why we must focus on what will generate traffic and that is Clonmel - everybody agree that half that route is pointless and generates almost no passengers. The very idea of reopening the West Clare is laughable. Maybe not to you, but it's a joke. Apart from Cork-Midleton, Navan, Athenry-Ennis there are no other railway lines in the Republic of Ireland that can be realistically reopened to passenger traffic. In fact, the most viable closed rail route is actually in NI Portadown-Armagh.

Read back your posts on comparing Switzwerland tio Ireland. Railways are not just tracks you take out of a box and lay along the ground like a Horby railway. They are more complex to build from scratch than any motorway. I am telling you the truth. If this is being unprofessional, then I am sorry - but you cannot get away from fact. The West Clare will never be opened because it like the Western Rail Corridor was built on the cheap, was never really upgraded/maintained and was the track was rotting away long before CIE pulled the plug. They may have invested in new trains and locomotives, but most of the rail lines had crumbling embankments and bridges that were never properly maintained.

We would all like to see railway expansion in Ireland - but it would be foolish to build them to anywhere other than populated centres and Sligo is medium sized regional town and not a large city and they already have a rail service.

GB Railfreight did not even wat to run freight trains in this country because the market was tiny and the piopulation base too small. The only way forward for our railways in Ireland is to develop the system on the exsisting lines around Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway and go from there. This way railways will be a success and the sucess can be developed out into the rest of the country. Strategic planning is so utterly vital in this respect.

I will let you into a secret which Platform11 has discovered. Nobody in Ireland cares about railways and railway development, not the Government, nor the media. We the pro-rail people, are tiny minority.

Wishful thinking and comparisons to Switzerland are pointless as is putting up old maps of Ireland with all the closed lines on them becuase they were mainly built as a form of welfare in the post famine years by the British government and most of them were crap and failed from day one and this was at a time there was no competition from the car. They survived as they were used to get emmigrants to the ports. Apart from that they were miserable commercial and social failures. They did nothing to open up rural Ireland to industry. They were not real railways, they were welfare.

These are the fundiemental truths about railways in Ireland and there is no getting away from this.

Victor

dmeehan wrote:

Why do "InterCity" trains to Kerry stop at the sprawling metropolises of the likes of Banteer?

Now, would it be because there are no metropolises in Kerry?

Optikus

irish trains are bull crap FULL STOP

Crossley

GB Railfreight did not even wat to run freight trains in this country because the market was tiny and the piopulation base too small.

This is factually incorrect. GBRf is a very successful company and one of the fastest and most proactive freight operators around. They would not have looked at Ireland without doing its homework first. The company identified several business opportunities here and were keen to act on those opportunities. At that time Coillte were looking to return to rail having had their business refused a year earlier by IE. GBRf had serious discussions with Coillte and a number of other companies as well as a number of port operators which reached an advanced stage. Senior GBRf management made several trips to Dublin and had a number of meetings with the Minister and senior Department of Transport officals in an attempt to develop this further. However they were stymied in their attempts by the fact that they were required to deal directly with CIE/IE. You can imagine how helpful the monopoly operator was ! Funnily enough after GBRf threw up its hands in despair IE were once again interested in the Coillte and Norfolkline business and deals were done.

P11 Comms

Crossley wrote:

This is factually incorrect. GBRf is a very successful company and one of the fastest and most proactive freight operators around. They would not have looked at Ireland without doing its homework first. The company identified several business opportunities here and were keen to act on those opportunities. At that time Coillte were looking to return to rail having had their business refused a year earlier by IE. GBRf had serious discussions with Coillte and a number of other companies as well as a number of port operators which reached an advanced stage. Senior GBRf management made several trips to Dublin and had a number of meetings with the Minister and senior Department of Transport officals in an attempt to develop this further. However they were stymied in their attempts by the fact that they were required to deal directly with CIE/IE. You can imagine how helpful the monopoly operator was ! Funnily enough after GBRf threw up its hands in despair IE were once again interested in the Coillte and Norfolkline business and deals were done.

That's the standard rumour on the trainspotter grapevine which is just a combination of paranioa, hysteria and wishful thinking. The story I posted was the CIE version - which I fully accept, is probably just as selective with the truth.

I imagine the real story of what happened in the CIE boardroom is somewhere in the middle.

I cannot honestly see railfreight being expanded in Ireland until road tolling makes it more feasable for large logistics companies or some new mining operation opens somewhere. The Irish Examiner is going to have a feature on railfreight tomorrow from the EU angle I have been told - column space permitting.

Victor

P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up.

P11 Comms

Victor wrote:

P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up.

The thousands of real people outside the trainsspotter specturm who are scaring the bejabers off the polticans with our Extend the DART campaign are the ones that matter in all this.

Trainspotters who stand on Sherriff Street Bridge fluttering their eyelashes at train drivers while slagging off P11 don't matter.

BTW, I hope you signed the petition Victor.

John R

P11 Comms wrote:

The thousands of real people outside the trainsspotter specturm who are scaring the bejabers off the polticans with our Extend the DART campaign are the ones that matter in all this.

Trainspotters who stand on Sherriff Street Bridge fluttering their eyelashes at train drivers while slagging off P11 don't matter.

BTW, I hope you signed the petition Victor.

Your sneering unpleasant attitude towards trainspotters* reflects badly upon you and your organisation not the people you are trying so hard to belittle.

Whether Victor or anyone else has signed or not signed your petition is irrelevant and none of your business.


*Trainspotters appears to be a catch-all term applied to anyone that disagrees with your opinions in order to disparage the person without having to address the arguement.


"You are a trainspotter"
"No YOU are a trainspotter"
"No YOU are"
"No YOU are"
etc.

fozzle

I agree that the rail system in this country is a joke, but I don't think that getting rid of stops along lines is going to improve it.

Trying to get around this country by train is a nightmare, I lived in Galway for 4years yet, despite the fact that there is a line from Galway to Waterford via Limerick, I never once managed to get the train home. Why? because it wasn't possible to connect from the GAlway-Limerick line to the Limerick-Waterford line, instead you're supposed to go Galway-Portlaoise-Kildare-Waterford :rolleyes:

Or how about getting from Waterford to Cork? Most of my college-going classmates went to Cork, there are dozens of buses doing the run every day, yet the train line is sitting idle, and commuters are sent Waterfor-Limerick Junction-Cork, doubling the distance travelled.

I now live on the Dublin-Cork line. Despite the high prices these trains are always packed, a sure sign that the Irish public do in fact want a rail network, if given the opertunity.

Re rail freight, I'm convinced the government are doing their best to destroy this utterly. I'm sure most of you have heard of the wonderful new Dublin Docklands developments? Great, new apartments and offices are needed alraight, but did they have to be built on the rail yard for freight coming from Waterford Port? All the containers coming into Waterford for Dublin every day now have to be sent by road, leading to more conjestion, wear and tear, and more chances of accidents on the DUblin-Waterford road. Where's the logic in that?

Genghis

P11Comms, with respect:

As one of the "thousands of real people outside the trainsspotter specturm who are scaring the bejabers off the polticans with our Extend the DART campaign" I fail to see the need for you or the rail lobby to attack anyone other than the policymakers that are blocking the campaign.

Making snide comments and insinuations about people who contribute to the debate does nothing for the cause you are supposed to be advancing.

If you want to do that, then perhaps register as a private person, not the leader of a lobby group that represents my interests.

P.S. I signed your petition, I even dealt with the spam as a result.

John R

fozzle wrote:

Trying to get around this country by train is a nightmare, I lived in Galway for 4years yet, despite the fact that there is a line from Galway to Waterford via Limerick, I never once managed to get the train home. Why? because it wasn't possible to connect from the GAlway-Limerick line to the Limerick-Waterford line, instead you're supposed to go Galway-Portlaoise-Kildare-Waterford :rolleyes:

I am not surprised you didn't manage to get that train home, it hasn't run in over 40 years. There is no open rail line from Galway to Limerick other than via Portarlington.

fozzle wrote:

Or how about getting from Waterford to Cork? Most of my college-going classmates went to Cork, there are dozens of buses doing the run every day, yet the train line is sitting idle, and commuters are sent Waterfor-Limerick Junction-Cork, doubling the distance travelled.

Again that is the most direct rail route from Waterford - Cork. There is no direct line.


Look at a rail map or timetable and try again.

sceptre

Victor wrote:

Now, would it be because there are no metropolises in Kerry?

Ah now, at least they finally raised the platform in Banteer so you don't need a mini stairs to get out of the train.

sceptre

P11 Comms wrote:

BTW, I hope you signed the petition Victor.

I hope it isn't an internet petition - I've never met anyone except the creators who half-take one seriously.

Victor's got a point to be honest. Your aim is worthy of being taken seriously but as the representatives of an organisation that seeks to be taken seriously you could do better than to slag people off for what seems the sake of it. You've got a long reply above that answers a question in a rational way - do that with most of the replies and you might find more people willing to give something to your cause. Snide comments may make people think that it's a waste of time engaging with you. Up to you I suppose.

P11 Comms

That's not a picture of a trainspotter at all. Where is the smug, self-satisfied halfwit grin than only 40 plus years of your mammy making your dinner can produce? Where is the cradle-to-grave semi-state job that his father got for him as he would never be capable of dressing up for an interview? Where is the anorak with the strings hanging off the sleeves and the 3 week old baked beans dried onto the front? The dead uncle's trousers from 1974? Where is the attention-seeking limp coupled with the hair pushed over to one side instead of being washed while smugly announcing that Seamus Brennan is evil becuase he did not save the Class 140 locomotives from being scrapped? The obsessive compulsive disorder to jot down the most pointless details regarding the dates of when a wheel was replaced on a timber wagon while declaring that "Platform11 are discredited!"?

That guy looks like he at least has half a chance of getting a woman. His fly is even zipped up for God sake!

Alright, so maybe they are not all like that. But the ones who are the most anti-P11 nearly always are and they were from day one even when we tried to reach out to them.

The normal ones (people interested in railways, rather than trainspotters) tend to support us as they realise that the purpose of a rail lobby is not to save the steam train turntable at Galway, keep the 171 Locomotive class going or writing love letters to trains drivers on the Internet. These lads are grand, the rest deserve all the contempt which the greater society has for them because you cannot get away from evolution and natural selection no matter how hard you try.

Thanks for signing the petiton thoes who have and for the rest of you could please do so if you have not already: www.extendthedart.com

sorry about the spam - I'll get the webmaster to check that out.

Crossley

That's the standard rumour on the trainspotter grapevine which is just a combination of paranioa, hysteria and wishful thinking. The story I posted was the CIE version - which I fully accept, is probably just as selective with the truth.

Believe what you want but the information comes from an industry insider who was directly involved in the meetings both with the Department of Transport, GBRf and Coillte. P11 may want to believe the suggested IE/CIE version given their close relationship with those organisations and that's fine. However not everything in this world is as P11 would want us to believe or a trainspotter fantasy. P11 and in particular their PRO seems to like labeling everyone who does not agree with or toe the P11 line as trainspotters or British (as if either was a crime) which is a pity.

Re your picture of a trainspotter, isn't that the common view of a railway modeller as well? I'm sure you don't fit that description though.

sliabh

Victor wrote:

P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up.

It's about time someone said this. While I disagree with the P11 position I respect their views and rights to argue their case. But what bothers me is the way it is put across on boards and elsewhere. I think "shrill" is the way I would describe it.

And some of the slogans/tactics are more reminiscent of religious organisations. I think one I saw recently said we should "Believe" in the Interconnector. An appeal to faith in what should be a technical argument?

MG

Originally Posted by Victor
"P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up."

That badly needed to be said but just when you think P11 might take the opportunity to brush up their public relations, they dig themselves in deeper. The issue is whether, based on the perceptions generated by their PR, one feels that P11 and its principals have the abilities to advance the cause of rail in Ireland. I’ve made up my mind on that question and it sound like others have too………..

P11 Comms

sceptre wrote:

You've got a long reply above that answers a question in a rational way - do that with most of the replies and you might find more people willing to give something to your cause. Snide comments may make people think that it's a waste of time engaging with you. Up to you I suppose.

Fair enough, I assumed that the original post about the railways was a wind up and the guy was having a laugh. That was my mistake. It was only later I realised that he was serious and was just ignorant of rail transport (ignorant is not the same as stupid). That was a mistake and I am sorry for making that assumption. This is why I gave the more eh "prosaic" response in the follow-up when I relaised he was sincere.

The problem is that people say things like "the Western Rail Corridor should be reopened" and they are just repeating what they heard from somebody else. They do not know that there is nothing to reopen as there never was a WRC as such, just a collection of ramshakled, rural lines some most of them built to dreadful engineering standards that today is just mile after mile of crumbling embankments, collasping bridges thorugh the land of one-off houses and would not do anything to help transport if it was opened.

I know, I live next door to the WRC and the number of level crossings on it would make any kind of reasonble passenger service, both highly expensive to operate, reduce train speeds and actually increase traffic congestion at the level crossings in the West of Ireland. None of these things will do the overall image of rail transport any favours - certainly not for a minumum cost of €300 million. That would keep the next several generation of anti-rail heads going strong and they would be 100% right for a change.

The reason for this is that too many people do not make the distinction between the tracks and the services. A rail line with one or two trains a day is not a rail service - it is running a train for the sake of it and this is simply madness unless you are trainpotters who likes travelling over from the UK to take photos of empty trains against nice scenery. This is what is going on the Limerick - Rosslare line.

By cutting back the service to Clonmel on that you reduce the train traveling distance and in turn increase the train frequency and you develop a "service" which people will want to use because it is useful. This is why Platform11 asked that services on that line be reduced and reconfigured to a certain geographical region with a decent population base - because it would SAVE the line. The Strategic Rail Review suggested the entire line be closed down - Platform11 produced a compromise which could be sold to polticians and it is working. This is not "a pathetic approach to rail transport" as the poster said - this is the only realistic apporoch in this car obsessed, anti-public transport nation for saving regional rail lines as the NRA tarmacs the land.

On the subject of snide comments, Platform11 got that from day one from a huge percentage of the trainspotter community. Even when we tried to get them on board they had nothing good to say about us. I am not sure why, but that's is how they were - absolutely vicious towards us at times. And why? Because have worked our asses off for no money because we saw an under utilised infrastructure sitting idle next to congested roads and all we ever wanted to do was highlight this and have that fully utilised if possible?

We have a right wing Government in Ireland (and a very right wing media) who does not want to spend money on public transport except for brouchures and glossly election pamphlets and I believed that if we could make it seem like they were gettting a bargin by upgrading an exsisting infrastrcture for a few hundred million, they might invest in some public transport rather than looking for ways to not spend several billion on Metros which would be put off forever. We are 15 years behind on Platform for Change becuase the government does not want to something more than pay for maps and graphics and consultants reports. How many times have were been told "Metro to be announced next week" in the last 5 years. The fact is that they do not want to spend any money on rail unless they are forced into doing so by disgruntled communters on packed trains. DASH, Manooth Line upgrade etc.

The station being built at Spencer Dock and the refurbishment of the Phoenix Park tunnel route is due a lot to P11 - I had top polticians tell me so to my face. This will make life easier for thousands of commuters in Kildare. The Government were so impressed with us that they asked us to make a formal submission to the Airport Metro feasability study. We did, and they were very positive towards our suggestion on integrating the Metro with a DART extention at Glansevin Junction. They trainspotters continued to claim we were "discredited".

Until we have a Government which moves towards a more socially enlighted model and who is more public transport friendly, then this compromise angle is the only game you can play in this country were there is little money for public transport, and even less for rail. Bertie said "no Metro" a few weeks back. Nothing to do with us. But he might say "yes" to an expanded DART. This is were Platform11 comes in. Instead of nothing - we get something.

We made a few mistakes along the way sure, nobody in the history of Ireland had ever tried anything like this until P11 came along and there was, and is a learning curve, but I do believe that we are essentially doing the right thing for our country and the people who live in it. That does not include having rail investment channelled away from Dublin where is vitally needed and into Mayo where it would be "nice to have" as some people believe we shoud be doing.

highdef

I've done the "Extend the Dart" vote and have already got back over a dozen responses from various prominent politians. Some of them are quite lengthy, some are obviously pre-made templates and some are quite short but appear to have been written on the spot. I have forwarded the Extend the Dart vote page to over a dozen other people so if they also vote and pass the vote page on also, the politians will getting rather peeved off, if they aren't already!

P11 Comms

MG wrote:

Originally Posted by Victor
"P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up."

That badly needed to be said but just when you think P11 might take the opportunity to brush up their public relations, they dig themselves in deeper. The issue is whether, based on the perceptions generated by their PR, one feels that P11 and its principals have the abilities to advance the cause of rail in Ireland. I’ve made up my mind on that question and it sound like others have too………..

What I find amazing about trainspotter is that they will have no problem slagging off Platform11, but they go nuts if you mentioned to them that the ILDA strike a few years back was the main reason that railfreight in this country collasped and was the primary reason that Kingscourt and Foynes branches closed. Oh no, BAD BAD P11, putting down their heroes.

The rail unions themselves, or an element within the rail unions fatally damaged a real sector of the railways in this country by a summer of strikes. NEVER, will the trainspotters point the finger at the IE empolyees who did this. But they have no issue with having a go a P11 and CIE management and Seamus Brennan.

The last time a rail line was closed in Ireland was beaucse of the CIE unions - not P11, not Seamus Brennan and not CIE managment. Somebody tell that to the trainspotters who have decided that P11 is their anti-christ. The Foynes and Kingscourt lines were closed directly by the actions of ILDA which also resulted n a situation were companies dependent on the railfreight had to lay off workers. So much for worker solidarity! If anybody at the time was to dare say that is was some rail workers doing this, the Trainspotters would go mental. How dare anybody say a bad word about blessed train drivers.

When was the last time you heard of a rail union going on strike to save a railway line or sevice in Ireland like their counterparts have done in Poland and Bulgaria. And yet I have been scremed at by trainpotters for stating this fact and as if the CIE Unions are not to be critised as they are great guys, even when some of them go on strike at the drop of hat.

That also needs to be badly said as well.

sceptre

P11 Comms wrote:

What I find amazing about trainspotter is that they will have no problem slagging off Platform11, but they go nuts if you mentioned to them that the ILDA strike a few years back was the main reason that railfreight in this country collasped and was the primary reason that Kingscourt and Foynes branches closed. Oh no, BAD BAD P11, putting down their heroes.

I'm not a trainspotter but I'm telling you that you have a PR problem with aggression and snideness that's losing you support among sane people. People who might be on your side or might even be prepared to make more of an effort than signing an unverifiable petition on the internet. I wasn't talking about your fetish for slagging off trainspotters but now that you mention it, it's hardly a good use of your internet time either and nothing to do with commuting, transport or the state of Ireland's railways.

MG

“just when you think P11 might take the opportunity to brush up their public relations, they dig themselves in deeper.”

See above two P11 posts for classic examples – first a reasoned post which gives reason for hope, second an aggressive rant against the evil trainspotters.

Crossley

So that's Trainspotters, Union members and Brits on the hate list. Any others?

enterprise

P11 are a complete and utter joke of a group.

I have no respect for them.

P11 Comms

This is turning into a very interesting thread. But there is a sociological aspect to all this well which I feel is rather unique to how different people view rail trainport from differnt angles, not just here in Ireland.

On the concept of the evil trainspotter (I never said they were evil - Osama Bin Laden is evil) There is nothing wrong with people having a hobby at all. If it is spotting trains or collecting stamps.

However, I was told once that Irish Rail was “evil” because they were concentrating the investment in Dublin and not on the Western Rail Corridor by a trainspotter. This bloke was living in the UK and paying taxes over there and at the same token demanding that Irish taxpayers fund his holiday hobby. Eventually Platform11 were just as bad for agreeing with IE and the Strategic Rail Review that the Greater Dublin Region is were the demand for rail transport is for the next 10-15 years and this is were the money needs to be spent.

I was talking recently to another transport lobbyist and he stated that if Platform11 weren't around and somebody else managed to get a rail lobby group going it would still be disliked by the trainsportters. What they haven't grasped is that this P11 is a typical lobby group not some awful yoke dreamed up by horrid people that is doomed to failure.

What is strange and what we (P11) have finally managed to come to terms with is that no other transport or environmental issue contains trainspotter type folks. Think about it. Cycling campaigning doesn't have a problem with the people who do up messenger boy bikes. It doesn’t have bike spotters who don't want more cycle lanes in Dublin. What about the SIMI or Irish Road Hauliers Association. Do they suffer from car and truck spotters who don't want new roads and instead want the Boreens in Mayo to be the backbone of our national road network and forget the M50 because it is “PaleRoad” and anti-West of Ireland?

What disappointed us the most was that Platform11 as rail users coming to railways knowing little about working timetables distances between signals on the DART etc. was we got little or no help from those who knew it inside out. It doesn't matter now because we learnt it ourselves and we managed to pick up a few members who do seem to know a great deal of modern rail transport technology and we have the funds now to hire qualified professionals when we need them

I have to say that too many the trainsportters I have had the displeasure to deal with are truly some of the most bizarre individuals I have ever encountered. Many of them just lack basic behavioural and social skills and seem to possess an infantile in-built victim complex in that if somebody disagrees with them on a rail transport matter, they instantly brand that person a Nazi or a control freak or out to wreck railways. They also seem to be very negative mindset and constantly complain - but will never do anything to help things either.

Even when you are trying to explain to them that dealing with the serious overcrowding issues on the Dublin suburban network is more important than reopening rural branch lines in the West of Ireland which were closed in the 1950's. They don't "get it" - the rural branch line even if it carries no passengers is just as important to them (if not more so) as the busy suburban network which carries thousands.

They seem to also have no understanding of the economic factors which impact on rail transport systems and how much money this stuff costs to operate. You cannot explain to them the realities of public subvention and that politicians do not care about reopening rural railways with the same level of passion they do.

This is not the full story among trainsportters I have met, but this is not an unusual personality type either among that group of people. I think that railfans/railfans should stick with their hobby and not get involved in lobbying for rail transport issues/projects as they generally the efforts do no good.

They have a tendency to view rail systems as just track, stations, rolling stock and seem utterly divorced from the passengers who may want or not want to use a particular rail service. Too many of them think that the rural branch line is the ultimate expression of a rail transport network and this overrides real needs to develop rail transport systems that serve the most good.

There is nothing wrong with liking trains at all, but some seem to get out and see the real world now and again and stop blaming the wrong people for realities that we all have to live with.

highdef

I think it's fantastic that P11 speak out in the way they do instead of acting like politians always pretending to be our friends.

aliveandkicking

What is wrong with some of the people on this thread? how can you label P11 as "pathetic", "snide" and a "joke of an organisation". The government obviously doesn't think they are a joke. Are you all so wrapped up in cotton wool and used to polite political language and spin that you are incapable of recognising everyday speak? P11 are not a PR firm, they don't use political spin, they don't bull****, they tell things how it is even if it means some people are offended. P11 Comms has talked more sense in this thread than the rest of us put together.

highdef

aliveandkicking. I couln't agree more. Indeed, a lot of people on this thread to think that the people with P11 are politian types but they're not. THey are just like you and me. The average Joe. So P11, bring it on.

P11 Comms

Thanks NTL (and everybody else) - and for signing the petition. Might not work, but you have try.

As long as the rail transport pot is boiling and this stuff is "out there" and in the people's faces, we can avoid a future where another Jim Mitchell announces "no further investment in the railways" .

www.platform11.org

www.extendthedart.com

Genghis

ntl Technical wrote:

I think it's fantastic that P11 speak out in the way they do instead of acting like politians always pretending to be our friends.

That is not the issue. By all means be upfront, in-your-face and insulting - but confine it to the people you trying to impact upon, not individuals whose opinion you disagree with.

Michael O'Leary gets great coverage from straight talking and insulting politicians, but he is always careful to ensure that the people he targets are the people who can take the decisions he wants. You won't find him attacking, for example, housholders near the Airport, or at Baldonnell even though they may vociferously object to his ideas for their own reasons.

sceptre

aliveandkicking wrote:

What is wrong with some of the people on this thread? how can you label P11 as "pathetic", "snide" and a "joke of an organisation".

I only went for the middle one. And I didn't label P11 anything if you'll check back - I commented purely on the PR on the basis of what I can see here. Might go as far to say that the PRO appears to be snide when not dealing with those who like to be bowed to but that's as far as I went above. Never said anything more.

P11 Comms

"That is not the issue. By all means be upfront, in-your-face and insulting - but confine it to the people you trying to impact upon, not individuals whose opinion you disagree with."

I never got personal with anybody. There is no person called Mr Trainspotter. As for the lad that started this thread, I sincerly thought he was having a laugh, but I did not mean to slag him off for that at all, I complimented him for making me laugh. Ali-G is a comic genius. When I realised the man was serious I said I was sorry and gave him a proper answer. That was my mistake, not an attack on a person for having a different opinion.

As for what trainspotters think of Platform11, that not a issue to us. They were nowhere to be seen in the past when the Government shut down railway lines. Did they protest? Nah, they just saw it as an oppertunity to take photos on a farewell railfan trip. Then a group finally comes along who is determined to save rail and what do these people do, they either ignore, belittle, downplay our sucesses, or openly attack us. As yet, not one of the leading lights of the Irish trainspotter movement and many other I know by name have signed the petition to extend the Dart. But they have all the time in the world to criticise P11. Can anybody explain that one to me?

Right now, I am more upset by the the passing of Johnny Ramone. If he slagged off P11 on his deathbed I would be truly devastated.

BuffyBot

Victor's got a point to be honest. Your aim is worthy of being taken seriously but as the representatives of an organisation that seeks to be taken seriously you could do better than to slag people off for what seems the sake of it. You've got a long reply above that answers a question in a rational way - do that with most of the replies and you might find more people willing to give something to your cause. Snide comments may make people think that it's a waste of time engaging with you. Up to you I suppose.

Indeed. I can't take P11 seriously, as they seem to go about (certainly on boards) with an attitude highly unsuited to what is supposed to be a professional pressure group. Certainly if P11 Comms is supposed to be representative of their PR, they need to re-think their strategy.

The problem is, good points often get buried under the mounds of bile and ridiculous behavior. Lose that, and you might get taken a bit more seriously.

parsi

P11 Comms wrote:

That's not a picture of a trainspotter at all. Where is the smug, self-satisfied halfwit grin than only 40 plus years of your mammy making your dinner can produce? Where is the cradle-to-grave semi-state job that his father got for him as he would never be capable of dressing up for an interview? Where is the anorak with the strings hanging off the sleeves and the 3 week old baked beans dried onto the front? The dead uncle's trousers from 1974? Where is the attention-seeking limp coupled with the hair pushed over to one side instead of being washed while smugly announcing that Seamus Brennan is evil becuase he did not save the Class 140 locomotives from being scrapped? The obsessive compulsive disorder to jot down the most pointless details regarding the dates of when a wheel was replaced on a timber wagon while declaring that "Platform11 are discredited!"?

That guy looks like he at least has half a chance of getting a woman. His fly is even zipped up for God sake!

Alright, so maybe they are not all like that. But the ones who are the most anti-P11 nearly always are and they were from day one even when we tried to reach out to them.

The normal ones (people interested in railways, rather than trainspotters) tend to support us as they realise that the purpose of a rail lobby is not to save the steam train turntable at Galway, keep the 171 Locomotive class going or writing love letters to trains drivers on the Internet. These lads are grand, the rest deserve all the contempt which the greater society has for them because you cannot get away from evolution and natural selection no matter how hard you try.

Thanks for signing the petiton thoes who have and for the rest of you could please do so if you have not already: www.extendthedart.com

sorry about the spam - I'll get the webmaster to check that out.

Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the trainspotter image I think it is wrong to so vicously attack a group of people whilst posting under the identity of a PR person for a lobbying organisation. Generalised attacks on groupings who disagree with you but yet form no great obstruction to your work is at best a diversion of your energy and resources.

Of course some people would say everyone who uses boards is a nerd with social communciation problems who can only draft witty and cutting responses using the keyboard but cannot vocalise anything other than grunts or "I want a 14" Cajun-special-extra-mozarella".

But one question remains - every discussion on railways seems to degenerate into a fight between P11 types who have their vision of how railways should be run and the otehr types whose vision is different and who are labelled wreckers (oops... sorry thats what the Commies used say . .,. I meant evil vicious trainspotters). Perhaps everybody who posts to these debates should display their picture and if you have an anorak or lank hair your opinion will automatically be discounted :-)

Genghis

OK, you've convinced me! Give me a link to a petition, and by-God, I'll help you wipe out those trainspotters! Ireland's railways will never be free until their curse is removed! Our Government will never hear us until we drown out the sound of their protest!