Bloody end to Russia school siege

Nuttzz

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm

Russian troops have stormed the school in North Ossetia where hundreds of children and adults have been held hostage since Wednesday.
A Russian commander said troops had almost gained full control, but since then, more heavy gunfire and loud explosions have been heard.

Ambulances have been seen carrying scores of casualties from the scene.

Unconfirmed reports say that at least 10 people have been killed and up to 200 wounded.

Several of the hostage takers are also reported to have died in exchanges of fire with troops as they tried to escape, Reuters reports.

Some have blown themselves up, but others appear to have got away, says the BBC's Jonathan Charles.

Reuters reports that all hostages have now been brought out of the school.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford said at least 150 children have been taken to hospital.

A large number of people had earlier been seen fleeing the premises, many of them covered in blood.

Helicopters hovered overhead and there were troops everywhere.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford says a man who had been inside the building told her there had been an explosion and a wall had collapsed. This had been followed by gunfire and many more explosions.

It is unclear what caused the initial explosion.


Pandemonium

There is pandemonium in the streets surrounding the school, says the BBC's Damian Grammaticas, who is also at the scene.


The armed group holding the hostages were earlier reported to have demanded independence for neighbouring Chechnya.

On Thursday, 26 women and young children were released, and some of them provided the first details of conditions inside the school.

"You know there are not 300 people in there, but altogether 1,500. People are lying on top of each other," 27-year-old teacher Zalina Dzandarova told the Kommersant newspaper.

Officials put the number of hostages at 354 before Thursday's release, although the school has more than 1,000 pupils.


Click here to see the layout of the school
Trip wires were believed to have been laid around the school, with the attackers threatening to blow it up if it was stormed by police.

Hundreds of relatives of those being held inside the school who had been waiting anxiously outside the security cordon reacted in panic to the outbreak of fighting.

Officials said the release of the 26 people on Thursday came after mediation efforts by the former President of the neighbouring region of Ingushetia, Ruslan Aushev.

The attackers - both men and women, some wearing bomb belts - struck on Wednesday, the first day of the new school year in Russia.


Many parents and other relatives were inside the school, helping their children celebrate the new year, when the assault began.

The hostage-takers are Chechen and they were demanding full independence for their republic, says the BBC's Sarah Rainsford.

The rooskies dont mess around do they... they are really sending a message to the Chechen's, do what you want, we will still go in. This is the thrid one, firstly there was the materity hospital, then the therate and now this.

Batbat

Its live on bbc website now

arcadegame2004

This is the thrid one, firstly there was the materity hospital, then the therate and now this.

There have been a LOT more than 3 "incidents" in Chechnya, and a HELL of a lot more more Chechens killed as a result of such "incidents" by the Russians. While I condemn totally the hostage-taking and killing of innocent civilians, Russia is just getting a small taste of what it has been dishing out for the past 5 years.

It is a shame that the Russian public are being punished for the crimes of their leaders. They are not even aware of those crimes, because of the dictatorial control Putin has established over the media.

Nuttzz

its the third time they have stormed a siege :rolleyes: *sigh*

Hobbes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It is a shame that the Russian public are being punished for the crimes of their leaders. They are not even aware of those crimes, because of the dictatorial control Putin has established over the media.

It isn't communist Russia anymore. Information is freely available over there.

.-=MR. JOE=-.

ITV reporter got into the main gym a few minutes ago and says there's about 100 dead bodies lying in the ashes.

mycroft

Hobbes wrote:

It isn't communist Russia anymore. Information is freely available over there.

While I'm loath to agree with arcadegame hobbes he has a point,

from the guardian

It's gone subscription so here's a quote

"TVS was not a serious critic of the government, being sub ject to the self-censorship that inflicts Russian media in general - yet it was the only TV outlet that might have caused trouble in the presidential election next year. "

Also here

"The Kremlin, dogged by criticism of putting pressure on the Russian media, maintains that any such pressure is because it cannot operate without corporate funding. "It has a long way to go before it becomes independent," says a senior presidential press service source, who asked not to be named. "If you imagine a newspaper and a TV channel owned by somebody who is trying to use this media as a means for his political causes - this media cannot be considered as a free one." "

And finally here

"To sum up quickly: since he rose to power in 2000, the majority of newspapers have become state owned, or controlled, or have been closed, as have all independent TV channels; political reporting is effectively outlawed during election campaigns; and journalists have been jailed for libel and espionage. Reporters without Borders puts Russia 121st out of 139 countries on its index of free press. "

bizmark

Nuttzz wrote:

its the third time they have stormed a siege :rolleyes: *sigh*

Apperently it was one of the female hostage takers that blew her self up by mistake which blew a hole in the school wall then a few kids tryed to escape through that hole after this the hostage takers/rebels/scum bags started shooting to kill the hostages russia didnt want to siege the building they where forced into action (badly badly orginized action)

arcadegame2004

It isn't communist Russia anymore. Information is freely available over there.

Nonsense! There has been widespread reporting of the heavy censorship of news coming from Chechnya. NTV used to be very critical of the war in Chechnya and look what happened - the Russian State took it over in 2000 and now it's gone very docile. See here http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_744000/744620.stm

Also an article about the closing down by Putin of the last Russian national independent radio-station:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1755000/1755110.stm

More articles about Putin's censorship of the media, including harrassment of journalists who try to get around the censorship of the war in Chechnya:

http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=396&issue_id=2936&article_id=236621

http://www.indexonline.org/indexindex/misc/20010911_chechnya.shtml

http://www.rferl.org/specials/russia/babitsky/

So please research your facts in future.

Redleslie2

arcadegame2004 wrote:

So please research your facts in future.

Sound advice from the bestest fact researcher in the country.

oscarBravo

What amazes me about these nutters - and indeed about terrorist nutters the world over - is the sort of demented reasoning that allows them to believe their cause is more important than a child's life. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the Chechen issue is basically about nationality, self-determination, call it what you will. How can any human being put a gun to a child's head over the colour of a flag?

arcadegame2004

How can any human being put a gun to a child's head over the colour of a flag?

Ask the Russian Army that.

oscarBravo

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Ask the Russian Army that.

Oh. Well, that's alright then. :rolleyes:

Hobbes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

So please research your facts in future.

ROFLMAO... Russians have access to foriegn media just fine.

DadaKopf

Hobbes wrote:

ROFLMAO... Russians have access to foriegn media just fine.

Got any sources for that?

ary

DadaKopf wrote:

Got any sources for that?

Some russians even read these boards

http://www.livejournal.com/users/drugoi/928748.html

Redleslie2

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Ask the Russian Army that.

Yes but they're muslim heads...

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I was not aiming my remarks at ALL Muslims. But there is clearly a significant minority who sympathises with Al-Qaeda and we are entitled to reflect on this as a factual matter, without fear of being smeared as neo-Nazis.

...so at least the Russians have a good chance of bagging a terrorist and saving innocent lives somewhere.

Tbh I'm surprised that no idiot has popped up yet and said that the hostage taking thing just illustrates why we shouldn't let muslims into the country.

Captain Trips

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Nonsense! There has been widespread reporting of the heavy censorship of news coming from Chechnya. NTV used to be very critical of the war in Chechnya and look what happened - the Russian State took it over in 2000 and now it's gone very docile. See here http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_744000/744620.stm

Also an article about the closing down by Putin of the last Russian national independent radio-station:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1755000/1755110.stm

More articles about Putin's censorship of the media, including harrassment of journalists who try to get around the censorship of the war in Chechnya:

http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=396&issue_id=2936&article_id=236621

http://www.indexonline.org/indexindex/misc/20010911_chechnya.shtml

http://www.rferl.org/specials/russia/babitsky/

So please research your facts in future.

THat's all very true. However, I was reading I think the July/August of Foreign Affairs and they had a very iteresting essay on the new Russian Federation; it trasnpires that by and large, the average person would prefer a strong State than western "democracy". More people are probably suffering now from corrupt companies and unemployment than when the the Red Guard marched through Red Square. Foreign Affairs is of course ultra right-wing for the most part (it is the journal of the NY-CFR) so credibility is an issue but most of the articles are basically "How can we control this country".

WOuld it be that bad if the people over there *wanted* Putin to be a hard assed mofo?

PLus, I heard on the radio in the evening that one of the journalists saw something like 100 dead bodies in the gym of the school or something.

ionapaul

He did win the last presidential election very convincingly, lack of media opposition not withstanding. Captain Trips I think you are correct in stating that the Russian public want a 'hard assed mofo', and in fact approve of his hard man image.
Just watched the C4 news - sweet jebus. Those sick bastards - several terrorists are reported to be 'foreign fighters' with heavy accents. AQ again? Children reported had to drink urine as the terrorists did not allow any water in.
Some have said that the Russians are merely being repaid what they have visited on the Chechens over the past decade, but this incident is just going to harden Russian hearts against their enemies.

arcadegame2004

WOuld it be that bad if the people over there *wanted* Putin to be a hard assed mofo?

So they elected him to commit genocide in Chechnya? I heard on ITN news today that 70% of Chechen women are widows. Sounds like a bit more than "hard man" antics to me. Sounds like Hitler and the Nazis.

Those sick bastards - several terrorists are reported to be 'foreign fighters' with heavy accents. AQ again?

Do you also consider the Russian soldiers in Chechnya massacring hundreds of thousands of people to be "sick bastards"? I should think so. Or are Russian lives worth more?

The Chechen separatist movement is not uniform. The two main factions are led by the elected President before 1999, Aslan Maskhadov, and has condemned this kidnapping and all the previous ones in Russia. It is the faction of Shamil Basayev that has been implicated in ALL of those kidnappings, including the Moscow theatre siege. So can we please stop generalising.

I recall the Unionists always trying to blame the Provos whenever one of the splinter-groups like the INLA/CIRA/Real IRA killed someone. Generalising by calling the kidnappers "the Chechens" is just more of that.

ionapaul

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Do you also consider the Russian soldiers in Chechnya massacring hundreds of thousands of people to be "sick bastards"? I should think so. Or are Russian lives worth more?

Is the Russian army holding Chechen children hostage en masse? Or are the atrocities commited in Chechyna by Russian soldiers sanctioned by official policy or the acts of twisted individuals? Atrocities on either side are deplorable...however it seems to me that the average Chechen terrorists/seperatists/freedom fighters has a greater disregard for life than the average Russian conscript.

bugler

Most people are completely ignorant of what has happened in Checnya over the past decade. If you had a reasonable grasp of the situation, you'd understand that what has been visited upon Chechnya by Russia has contributed to it's descent into utter lawlessness. Torture, rape, and executions are rife. In both there assaults on Grozny the Russians have used overwhelming force, preferring to level the entire city rather than risk conventional combat. They have used thermobaric weapons, and there are strong reports they have also used chemical weapons.

Their troops are engaged (at all levels), in kidnapping for ransom, holding corpses for ransom and illicit smuggling. The Russian military is in such a sorry state that it often sells its arms to the Chechens, accepts bribes from the Chechens to allow them pass freely, and is generally incapable of securing Chechnya.

In response to your questions:

Is the Russian army holding Chechen children hostage en masse?

Maybe not a huge number at any one time, but as I have already said kidnapping for ransom of both live people and those killed is rampant in the region. Disappearances are the norm. If you're lucky you might be bought out by your family, if they can afford it.


Or are the atrocities commited in Chechyna by Russian soldiers sanctioned by official policy or the acts of twisted individuals?

Official policy has been utterly unsuccessful in its attempts to improve the military's conduct. Recent efforts to ensure military prosecutors were involved in mopping up operations descended into farce when the prosescutors were either locked up in barracks or intimidated into filing bogus reports about what went on in such operations. There is almost no discipline in Russia's army. Responsibility for this must lie with the Russian government.

Atrocities on either side are deplorable...however it seems to me that the average Chechen terrorists/seperatists/freedom fighters has a greater disregard for life than the average Russian conscript.

The average Russian conscript is arguably not the problem. More worrying are the 'kontraktniki', essentially mercenaries or hardened criminals who come to Chechnya to steal, extort or rape with impunity. You might say it seems to you that the Chechens have a greater disregard for life, but honestly, how much do you know of Chechnya?

I own most books ever printed on Chechnya. It's been an exhausting and interesting hobby of mine for some years. It's really tragic, seeing a people reduced to savagery. But having neglected the cruel abuse of the Chechen people for a decade, I don't believe the West is in any position to hold forth on morality. They don't care anymore, and why should they? They've been given nothing left to hope for, their society more or less destroyed. They've been forced to choose between an oafish and callous Russian military or Wahhabism, and it's ruined their country. Expect more of the same.

arcadegame2004

Is the Russian army holding Chechen children hostage en masse? Or are the atrocities commited in Chechyna by Russian soldiers sanctioned by official policy or the acts of twisted individuals? Atrocities on either side are deplorable...however it seems to me that the average Chechen terrorists/seperatists/freedom fighters has a greater disregard for life than the average Russian conscript.

I consider Putin to be well aware of what is going on. In fact, I suspect he is personally behind it. Russia has never been through the kind of historical influences (especially the Enlightenment) that led, in the West, to the development of proper parliamentary democracy, with entrenched beliefs in the freedom of the press. Russia has always been an autocracy, which has treated its minorities in a manner that can only be rightly described as sickening.

Putin brought all this on the Russian people in the name of his own political popularity. He was initially unpopular after his appointment by Yeltsin. He started the war in Chechnya in order to make himself electable. Back then we weren't seeing theatre/school sieges. On the ITV news this evening, it was estimated that up to 70% (!) of Chechen women are now widows. If that is true, then I can well understand what is driving many Chechens to desperate, even insane tactics.

Russia's treatment of the Chechens exceeds in brutality even Cromwell's treatment of the Irish. Putin and Stalin are the Oliver Cromwell's of Chechnya, with an insatiable bloodthirst of Hitlerian proportions. To the Hague with you Putin!

D-Generate

arcadegame2004 wrote:

On the ITV news this evening, it was estimated that up to 70% (!) of Chechen women are now widows.

Actually what they said was that up to 70% of Chechen women have lost a relative in the war. I think that if 70% were widows then the birth rate would drop so significantly over the next generation that the conflict would all but be over in another 30 years time however it won't be because not that many are widows.

Research your facts correctly in future

marco murphy

From looking at TV,the Russians had no control of the scene did they?

elivsvonchiaing

D-Generate wrote:

Actually what they said was that up to 70% of Chechen women have lost a relative in the war. I think that if 70% were widows then the birth rate would drop so significantly over the next generation that the conflict would all but be over in another 30 years time however it won't be because not that many are widows.

Research your facts correctly in future

In the meantime there are the "Black Widows". These are Chechen women belonging to this group who are willing to do suicide bombings the works... I really can see another 30 years of this ...

LegacyUser

arcadegame, take a trip to evil Russia, you will have a nice time, take a trip to your poor downtroddin friends in chechnya and you will have your head sliced off cause your mommy isnt rich enough, Stalin had the right idea with these ppl, and another Stalin is required, someone with the balls to put an end to this nonsense, they should send an army into that ****hole with the simple order of end it, no repercussions, no court martials, nothing, just put them down

arcadegame2004

arcadegame, take a trip to evil Russia, you will have a nice time, take a trip to your poor downtroddin friends in chechnya and you will have your head sliced off cause your mommy isnt rich enough, Stalin had the right idea with these ppl, and another Stalin is required, someone with the balls to put an end to this nonsense, they should send an army into that ****hole with the simple order of end it, no repercussions, no court martials, nothing, just put them down

Moderators, if the above is not the manifestation of the most extreme form of racism then I don't know what it is. I strongly suggest you discipline banayoghurt because he has posted those comments which seem - on the face of it at least - to endorse genocide.

The problems of Chechnya and terrorism from it stem from the barbaric fascist Russian campaign to occupy Chechnya with their version of the ainzat grupen.

Redleslie2

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Moderators, if the above is not the manifestation of the most extreme form of racism then I don't know what it is. I strongly suggest you discipline banayoghurt because he has posted those comments which seem - on the face of it at least - to endorse genocide.

I don't think he's being racist, sort of fascist maybe, but condoning fascism is acceptable I was informed. I dunno why making a racist comment is not deemed to be acceptable while condoning fascism, which incorporates murder torture and rape, is.

LegacyUser

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Moderators, if the above is not the manifestation of the most extreme form of racism then I don't know what it is. I strongly suggest you discipline banayoghurt because he has posted those comments which seem - on the face of it at least - to endorse genocide.

indeed, very racist, in fact there is nothing racist in what i posted, and to suggest it is ridiculous, i endorse any action to put an end to the premeditated and targeted murder of children which you appear to attempt to justify, funny thing is, you are as left as they come, oh the irony

arcadegame2004

they should send an army into that ****hole with the simple order of end it, no repercussions, no court martials, nothing, just put them down

Okay then. Can you explain what you mean by "ending it"? Sounds kinda sinister.

Redleslie2

bananayoghurt wrote:

i endorse any action to put an end to the premeditated and targeted murder of children which you appear to attempt to justify,

Would a few more operations like the one in some place called Katyr Yurt do the trick? Should the females be raped before being liquidated, in order to, I dunno, send a message to the rest of them or something?

You did say any action.

LegacyUser

Redleslie2 wrote:

Would a few more operations like the one in some place called Katyr Yurt do the trick? Should the females be raped before being liquidated, in order to, I dunno, send a message to the rest of them or something?

You did say any action.

hmm, i wonder why they would do something like that, it's not like 200 kids just got butchered by these guys ?

LegacyUser

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Okay then. Can you explain what you mean by "ending it"? Sounds kinda sinister.

ending the murder of kids sounds sinister, indeed

Rew

Poblachtach wrote:

From looking at TV,the Russians had no control of the scene did they?

It was a mess. Pretty much how not to run a counter terror operation like that. They didnt have a contingency plan to storm the building, no proper secrity cordon around the area, not enough medical staff on site to do triage, not enough ambulances, hostages wernt contaied as they came out and the soldiers were treating the whole thing like a regular military operation instead of a hostage rescue.

elivsvonchiaing

Putin has been getting a hammering here from many. Just one thought that has occured to me is how worse it would be if Zhirinovski was in charge - or worse takes charge (though highly unlikely).

We would be looking at lake Chechnya imho

LegacyUser

Redleslie2 wrote:

I don't think he's being racist, sort of fascist maybe, but condoning fascism is acceptable I was informed. I dunno why making a racist comment is not deemed to be acceptable while condoning fascism, which incorporates murder torture and rape, is.

by the way, though i don't in any way condone fascism, it does not incorporate murder torture and rape

chewy

it was strange how the news kept saying they have their top men from moscow on this... and then the commander explain how things started/ended said well we heard explosions then hostages started running out so we and "locals with firearms" started shooting back?

locals with firearms wtf?

i wonder how many regions are that want indepedence from old russia?

how many new countries di russia spurt out over the last few years?

arcadegame2004

hmm, i wonder why they would do something like that, it's not like 200 kids just got butchered by these guys ?

By "these guys" do you mean the hostage-takers or the Russian military? I think both qualify for that categorisation, except that maybe the number "200" should be replaced with "tens of thousands" in the latter case.

You seem to be implying that a Russian life is of greater value to a Chechen life. Is that your meaning? It sounds like it, and that IS fascism.

elivsvonchiaing

Redleslie2 wrote:

I don't think he's being racist, sort of fascist maybe, but condoning fascism is acceptable I was informed. I dunno why making a racist comment is not deemed to be acceptable while condoning fascism, which incorporates murder torture and rape, is.

There was an an Italian fascist who featured on rightious among the nations here: www.yad-vashem.org.il. Can't find the link anymore probably because of irresponisble posts such as forums like this. Will say no more - apart from fascism is different from racism.

PS. don't even dream of posting it if you found it. It used to be (well one of them) yadvashem.com - (to prevent the nazis from registering it - and to create awareness).

Yes Racist is not the same as Fascist.

{Edit} I really liked the visual art they used to explain themselves in 1996 (Could be early/mid 1997). Can only guess why they dropped it - too religious - not so imho - that was stunning stuff. I concede survivors have the vote on this. Suspect that was what happened}

LegacyUser

arcadegame2004 wrote:

By "these guys" do you mean the hostage-takers or the Russian military? I think both qualify for that categorisation, except that maybe the number "200" should be replaced with "tens of thousands" in the latter case.

You seem to be implying that a Russian life is of greater value to a Chechen life. Is that your meaning? It sounds like it, and that IS fascism.

and why tens of thousands ?, how many countries have seceded from the former ussr without a bother ?,

chechnya was nothing but a warlord haven, and a real threat to surrounding countries, the place has to be sorted out, hopefully those kids won't have died in vain and it will let putin take the gloves off and go in HARD

arcadegame2004

chechnya was nothing but a warlord haven, and a real threat to surrounding countries, the place has to be sorted out, hopefully those kids won't have died in vain and it will let putin take the gloves off and go in HARD

What about the thousands of Chechen children killed in the past 5 years by Putin's army of psychopaths? Russia started this. It is ultimately they who will decide if this ends.

While I condemn the killing of the Russian children, it is dwarfed in scale by the slaughter instigated by the Russians in Chechnya. It's just that Putin won't let us see what his minions are up to in Chechnya. Western media-access to Chechnya is almost impossible outside of stage-managed broadcasts managed by the bloodthirsty Russian army.

The deliberate killing of innocent civilians is always terrorism, INCLUDING when national armies carry it out. I therefore consider the Russians to be engaged in terrorism.

and why tens of thousands ?, how many countries have seceded from the former ussr without a bother ?,

How many countries have secede from the British Empire without a bother? Are you saying we asked for it?

LegacyUser

arcadegame2004 wrote:

What about the thousands of Chechen children killed in the past 5 years by Putin's army of psychopaths? Russia started this. It is ultimately they who will decide if this ends.

While I condemn the killing of the Russian children, it is dwarfed in scale by the slaughter instigated by the Russians in Chechnya. It's just that Putin won't let us see what his minions are up to in Chechnya. Western media-access to Chechnya is almost impossible outside of stage-managed broadcasts managed by the bloodthirsty Russian army.

The deliberate killing of innocent civilians is always terrorism, INCLUDING when national armies carry it out. I therefore consider the Russians to be engaged in terrorism

well thats great so, I'm happy for you that you can choose one terrorist over another, happy terrorising :rolleyes:

chewy

one man terrorist is another mans freedon fighter!

LegacyUser

chewy wrote:

one man terrorist is another mans freedon fighter!

well any man who considers ppl who set out to kill hundred of children freedom fighters deserves one in the head himself

arcadegame2004

well any man who considers ppl who set out to kill hundred of children freedom fighters deserves one in the head himself

I heard on Newsnight yesterday that it is possible that NONE of the hostage-takers were actually Chechen, but rather were Russian Muslims, and Ingush. Hmmm. If that is true then some people will have apologies to make I think.

therecklessone

bananayoghurt wrote:

Stalin had the right idea with these ppl, and another Stalin is required,

Stalin perpetrated genocide against the Chechen people, so you're suggesting genocide as the answer to terrorism? When you do you sums, how many innocent chechens does it take to balance the books for a couple of hundred innocent Russian children?

bananayoghurt wrote:

someone with the balls to put an end to this nonsense, they should send an army into that ****hole with the simple order of end it, no repercussions, no court martials, nothing, just put them down

Just put them down? Will you draw the line anywhere? Carpet bombing? Chemical weapons? Hell, why not unleash a few nukes on the fuc*ers, eh?

therecklessone

bananayoghurt wrote:

i endorse any action to put an end to the premeditated and targeted murder of children

Again I ask, where do you draw the line (if at all)? What if the Russians act in a like manner, e.g. killing one Chechen child for every Russian child? Support that?

therecklessone

bananayoghurt wrote:

well any man who considers ppl who set out to kill hundred of children freedom fighters deserves one in the head himself

The same could be said for those who support genocide.

arcadegame2004

The silence of Western governments on Russia's barbarity in Chechnya is utterly outrageous.

BattleBoar

There's only one way I can think of to end the situtation without killing millions of Chechyns: Forced relocation of 90% or more of the Chechyn people to all the four corners of Russia. Scatter them out, separate them from each other, and ban them from travelling beyond a certain radius from that point without official permission.