Should "Vodka in a Sachet" be banned?

vinnyfitz

What do people think about this way of packaging and selling booze?

I can see advantages and disadvantages but I'm instinctively suspicious of the motives of those who have rushed out to oppose it (Publicans, PDs etc.).

Sleipnir

This is far more advantageous for the publicans then for the public.
Imagine drunken-assed teens going up to the bar at closing and then sticking
20 sachets into their jackets before they go.

Imposter

Sleipnir wrote:

This is far more advantageous for the publicans then for the public.
Imagine drunken-assed teens going up to the bar at closing and then sticking
20 sachets into their jackets before they go.

Or bringing it in with them in the first place.

Sleipnir

yeah even better. who's going to notice you're filling your glass with sachets you bought earlier in the off license.

vibe666

not to mention that it'd cut down on injuries. can't see anyone in casulty after been hit over the head with a sachet of vodka. ;-)

all we need now is sachet's of redbull and I'm set.

Sparks

Seems like a bad idea to me. Vodka should come in bottles marked "Stolichnaya Gold", not nameless sachets. But I suppose if you want to precisely measure out how many units you're drinking, it'd be quite useful since the baggies are measured out quite carefully so one baggie is precisely one unit.

seamus

Never heard of it.
Link?

MucFluck

I was listening to the muppets on Jerry Ryan crying about this. It's just vodka in a bag, it's a stupid yuppie product but it's not evil and the parents against everything can't prove that it is.

If the kiddies start buying this, it would really surprise me as it's more or less out of the price range of the young drunkerd who wants value for money. Unless their all idiots, ether they buy it and get less drink for their money or they avoid it because it's too expensive.

The thing is if they get this drink someones helping them break the law, and thats got nothing to do with a crappy product that will probably fall on it ass because it's stupid. Not evil.

Hobbes

TBH it sounds like a good idea.

1) Can't be watered down or short not put into the drink late at night (which does happen).

2) Easier to carry, and to know how many shots you have.

3) Less chance of getting a sachet over the head at the end of the night. Removes a basic weapon.

Sleipnir

from rte.ie


VFI urges members to snub new drink

02 September 2004 12:37
The Health Minister Micheál Martin has said he is also concerned about the launch of the controversial new 'vodka in a sachet' drink, and will be having discussions with the Justice Minister to see if its sale can be regulated.

Mr Martin said he was particularly concerned because it could encourage more young people to drink sprits and could be used at any number of locations from the home to other venues.

He said its design and price could add to the worrying culture of youth drinking.



Earlier the Vintners Federation of Ireland urged its members not to stock the new low cost drink.

The chairman of the Vintners Federation in Galway, Paul O'Grady, called on the Justice Minister, Michael McDowell, to make an immediate order banning its sale before it gets into off licences around the country.

He told RTÉ News the easy to conceal sachets would certainly encourage under age drinking and he rejected claims by the company behind the new product that it would lead to more responsible drinking.

He said he would not stock the sachets in his own off licence and would be encouraging all other publicans and off licence outlets to do the same.

Mr McDowell has already said he has 'serious concerns' about the introduction of such a drink to the market.

A spokeswoman for the minister told RTÉ News he is to have discussions with the Health Minister, and with representatives of the Licensed Vintners to discuss ways of controlling and regulating the sale of the drink.

The new easy to carry, easy to conceal sachets of vodka are being produced by a Dublin-based company which insists they are aimed at adult drinkers and not at teenagers.

The Little Drinks Company says it is targeting women in their 20s and 30s who might like to use them for home entertainment.

It has been claimed the 30 ml sachets, which will sell for €1.50, are cheap, dangerous and are designed to encourage underage drinking.

It is understood, however, that it may be difficult to legally ban the sale of the new one shot in a sachet drink.

Sleipnir

Hobbes wrote:

3) Less chance of getting a sachet over the head at the end of the night. Removes a basic weapon.

Rofl!

"GET BACK, I'VE GOT A SMALL SACHET OF LIQUID!"

Hobbes

I think if you have to worry about a kid drinking from a sachet, you may as well ban all drink. As they have to buy it anyway.

It sounds more there is more to it then that.

vinnyfitz

Not sure if this qualifies but its all Google offered me:

http://www.anewdrink.com/

sort of wierd....

Scruff

been listening to this on the radio for the last few days. dont buy the "its so you will be able to quantify how much you drank by holding on to the sachets" line thought. why would you stink them back in your pocket\purse\bag? they'ed leak the remaining bits all over yer pocket\bag etc for one.

one thing they would be great for is gig's though, stash a few of them on yer person in yer bag no problem and ye wouldnt have to be paying €5 a pint.

MucFluck

The previous generation always said they wanted a happier life for their kids, now that it's here and everyones living it up and able to go out and enjoy themselfs every weekend they changed their minds. Jelous?

koneko

I don't see how it encourages underage drinking, personally. It's still alcohol.

If a 14 year old can buy a sachet of vodka he can buy a bottle of vodka. It's not like it's being sold as candy, it's still alcohol.

Stark

The Little Drinks Company says it is targeting women in their 20s and 30s who might like to use them for home entertainment.

Eh? How would you use vodka sachets for home entertainment? Wouldn't those women be better off buying a large bottle in the off licence?

Sparks

Scruff, I think the idea is more that you know how many unit's you're getting before you drink them, rather than making it easier to tot up the total the morning after as you crawl from the bath to the toilet to finish throwing up...
(As the number of units in a glass of vodka is dependent not only on the volume of liquid but on what proof it is as well).

Meh

It has been claimed the 30 ml sachets, which will sell for €1.50, are cheap

I'm pretty sure that's what the publicans really object to. And of course the moral-majority please-think-of-the-children ban-this-filth brigade are there to back them up.

sovtek

"Earlier the Vintners Federation of Ireland urged its members not to stock the new low cost drink."

'nuff said.....

seamus

Meh wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's what the publicans really object to. And of course the moral-majority please-think-of-the-children ban-this-filth brigade are there to back them up.

Indeed. I was thinking, "no feckin way am I drinking my vodka from a sachet", but at €1.50 a sachet, I would strongly consider it when I'm out.

Redleslie2

seamus wrote:

Indeed. I was thinking, "no feckin way am I drinking my vodka from a sachet", but at €1.50 a sachet, I would strongly consider it when I'm out.

I've drunk vodka from far far more unorthodox receptacles. It's not a problem. David McWilliams has an article on his site here about the PDs' (or McDowell's at least) obsession with telling us what where and with whom we can consume.

GuanYin

The guys behind this is an ex casualty doctor and to be fair I think his reasoning behind the product is sound, if a little optimistic.

There is a huge problem with people coming into casualty on mixes of drugs and alcohol and not being able to quantify how much of what they have had. This is mainly because they are trying to piece together actions performed while drunk (how much of 2 bottles did each of 3 people have etc etc).

If people have a set number of sachets, at least they will have done the maths before they become inebriated and as such it give the doctors a better estimate of how much has been consumed. This is actually pretty important in cases where drugs/medication and alcohol have been mixed.

As for the negative points, I agree that spiking drinks is a possability, but I think that spiking a drink with 30ml of vodka will have little effect compared with date rape drugs and I can't see it becoming a problem.

I think the main issue here is the price. The issue of making drink affordable to kids is the problem for the government while the vintners don't like cheap drink full stop along with the fact they will need to do extra policing to stop people bringing them into pubs.

As for the issue of kids getting hold of the sachets? Well if you ask me thats a matter for the Gardai and Off Licences to deal with and also, to no small degree, the parents.
I love the way this countries answer to avoiding extra responsability to key groups is to ban something.

vinnyfitz

There is a wonderfully hypocritical interview on the RTE 1 o'clock news with Paul O'Grady an off licence operator in Tuam who represents the vintners in the Wesht. RTE show him stacking bottles on the shelves of his shop and then let him wrap himself up in anxiety about these baggies turning up in the school bags of fifth year school children.

Cue the question from the dilligent RTE reporter - something like: "But you own a pub as well. Are you not really just worried that it will be too easy for adults to smuggle these baggies into your pub thereby maybe halving the price of their vodkas?"

No? Damn! That bit must have been edited out of the interview! Come on RTE at least try to challenge vested interests from time to time.

AngelofFire

Again the self labelled "Liberterian" PDs show just how Illiberal they really are. So what if the sachet makes it easier for young people to smuggle drink into discos?.Ive never head the PDs ramble on about how Coccaine,Ecstasy and Speed can be smuggled into discos just as easy if not easier.

This politically correct nanny statism is rediculous,we`re now the biggest nanny state in europe next they`ll be calling for pubs to shut at 8:30 every night.

Danni

syke wrote:

As for the issue of kids getting hold of the sachets? Well if you ask me thats a matter for the Gardai and Off Licences to deal with and also, to no small degree, the parents.
I love the way this countries answer to avoiding extra responsability to key groups is to ban something.

Well said, i enjoyed your post Syke

Imposter

You can already buy little bottles of vodka (I think they are 50ml). If most of the excuses by the publicans (and others) are viewed while considering this, then I think it's the cost of this that they really don't like.

Boggle

Publicans problem: Why spend E3+ on a shot when you can bring these in easily and drink for E1.50.

Parents problem: They are worried little jimmy will drink these instead of naggins or be able to smuggle them into school in their bags. Someone should tell them that 15-20 of these would be alot mor awkward to carry to a ditch drinking session than a single bottle - and a lot more conspicuous. Not to mention that when they're drunk they'll end up spilling them anyway. And besides its no more difficult to carry these in your bag than a 50ml bottle/shoulder or the traditional coke bottle.


Conclusion: publicans are greedy ba$tards and parents council needs to get a hobby (or take responsibility for their own kids). Oh and Michael Martin see's an opportunity for an extra tax. Welcome to Rip-Off Ireland at its very best!!

Flukey

This is a dangerous development. It would be much easier for teenagers to conceal these and bring them into discos and nightclubs. They could also be used to spike drinks. The man launching it has said it will lead to more responsible drinking and enable people to measure how much they are drinking. He said that having worked in the A+E unit of a hospital he saw many people coming in not knowing how much they have drunk. This of course would not help that. You are no more likely to remember how many of these that you have drunk than you are any form of drink. It would be harder to keep count of how many of these you have taken. Wehn people are out on the piss they don't keep a record of how many drinks they have had. If anything they are more likely to lead to more dangerous drinking than his claims. This is all to do with profit and nothing to do with safety. It may appeal to teenagers, who haven't yet learned how to drink properly, but anyone with a bit of sense can see the dangers of this.

Winters

The whole arguement is stupid.

Parents and a lot of the media are making it out as if these things can be sold in a local shop or from a vending machine or something. They are al alcoholic beverage and therefor can only be sold to over 18's. The Parents Council of ireland really need to shut up, the problem is not with these sachets but with their kids and also off licences selling them to underage teenagers.

Why should I be stopped from purchasing one of these sachets just because there is a fear that someone who, legally should not be drinking alcohol, may get drunk on them. Its up to the parents to stop their kids drinking and start taking responsibility for their childrens actions then the Government having to do it for them.

Pubs are really the ones that dont want this product to be brought in. Although, if they did maybe they would in turn be forced to lower their prices to try and combat people bringing them in. However, its not that hard to make a home made sacht of vodka or to concil it in other ways if you really want to.

GuanYin

Flukey wrote:

This is a dangerous development..

The sachet'd vodka or people posting uninformed nonsense?

Flukey wrote:

It would be much easier for teenagers to conceal these and bring them into discos and nightclubs. They could also be used to spike drinks..

Why does noone seem worried about how the kids will acquire these sachets in the first place?

All I've seen/heard (outside of this thread) so far is tripe about smuggling and drink spiking being carried out by all these uncouth youths, yet noone seems bothered by the fact that, apparently, these kids are going to be able to get their hands on alcohol so easily (or so all the scaremongering is suggesting).
*boggle*

Oh, and how much spiking are you honestly gonna do with one vodka? Why use that when there are plenty more readily available substances out there that are more effective.

Flukey wrote:

You are no more likely to remember how many of these that you have drunk than you are any form of drink. It would be harder to keep count of how many of these you have taken. Wehn people are out on the piss they don't keep a record of how many drinks they have had. .

The vast majority of casualty dept alcohol cases are not people drinking in pubs or clubs. They're people who buy 2 bottles of vodka and 12 cans betweeen three of them and then sit in a house or a field drinking. As they all drink at different rates and are getting pissed as they pour, trying to get one of them to tell you how much vodka they've actually had after they're admitted is akin to getting Ian Paisley to sing "A Soldiers Song", in Irish, in Croke Park. With these sachets, if they buy 20 between them, at least you have a better idea of the actually quantity of alcohol being consumed (because the kid will only have how many he/she bought). Its not a perfect system, buts it much better than the former scenario.

Flukey wrote:

If anything they are more likely to lead to more dangerous drinking than his claims. This is all to do with profit and nothing to do with safety. It may appeal to teenagers, who haven't yet learned how to drink properly, but anyone with a bit of sense can see the dangers of this.

How is this? Why would a teenager not drink from a bottle but from a sachet? Why might it appeal to them? Can you actually give any reasoning behind your claims or are you just standing on a soapbox scaremongering?

Will the laws on the sale of alcohol be more relaxed now that vodka is available in sachets? Will publicans be more lax in upholding the laws? Because unless the answer to both of these is "YES" then the sale of vodka sachets shouldn't effect teenage drinking at all.

shurl

vinnyfitz wrote:

Not sure if this qualifies but its all Google offered me:

http://www.anewdrink.com/

sort of wierd....

SORT of wierd? :eek:

If that is the company, whoever wrote that was "sampling the merchandise".
:-)

seamus

Flukey wrote:

This is a dangerous development. It would be much easier for teenagers to conceal these and bring them into discos and nightclubs. They could also be used to spike drinks.

If people are running nightclubs, there are 3 groups with responsibility for ensuring that they do not bring them in - The Off-Licence Owner, The nightclub, and the parents. By the same logic, we should ban naggins of vodka, since they're easily concealed in a purse, or a big jacket. It would also be way way way way easier to buy a shot of vodka at a bar, and plop into into someone's drink, than carefully manouver a sachet into position inconspicuously and drop it cleanly into a drink, with no spillage.

This of course would not help that. You are no more likely to remember how many of these that you have drunk than you are any form of drink. It would be harder to keep count of how many of these you have taken. Wehn people are out on the piss they don't keep a record of how many drinks they have had.

I disagree, but I don't think it will make it any easier to count. Excepting that someone might buy 8, and go to a house party, they can say they drank 5 of them, rather than making a vague measurment with two fingers and saying "I drank this much of a bottle".

If anything they are more likely to lead to more dangerous drinking than his claims. This is all to do with profit and nothing to do with safety.

Yep, all to do with profit. The VFI's profit. If these things actually take off, the VFI will be out of all that massive markup they stick on spirits, so they've taken to bullying our Government in the interests of "public order". It's a disgrace.

If they even attempt to ban these, then they'll have to ban all alcoholic drinks.

Gurgle

Its a non-issue.
Back in my day*, boys drank beer, girls drank ritz. If you didn't like beer or ritz, there was vodka & orange or cider. I've never heard anyone suggesting that these be banned.

If it means less broken glass on the street, thats good enough for me.
Actually, if the vinters cartel is against it, I'm for it.

*Not really all that long ago.

joe_chicken

syke wrote:

As for the issue of kids getting hold of the sachets? Well if you ask me thats a matter for the Gardai and Off Licences to deal with and also, to no small degree, the parents.
I love the way this countries answer to avoiding extra responsability to key groups is to ban something.

agreed!

we should give them all guns too and when kids start shooting themselves we can blame the gardai.. o yeah and the parents too!

(p.s. im not against the sachets, i just think thats a stupid argument)

Hagar

Cheap? At €1.50 for 30ml thats 25 measures per standard bottle.
That puts the bottle at €37.50 !!!
Shag that, I'm off to LIDL for a bottle of their best p!ss at about 12 eurons a lash.

seamus

joe_chicken wrote:

agreed!

we should give them all guns too and when kids start shooting themselves we can blame the gardai.. o yeah and the parents too!

(p.s. im not against the sachets, i just think thats a stupid argument)

Um, how is that relevant. If guns were sold like alcohol was, then yes it would be an issue for Gardai and parents....

Hagar wrote:

Cheap? At €1.50 for 30ml thats 25 measures per standard bottle.
That puts the bottle at €37.50 !!!
Shag that, I'm off to LIDL for a bottle of their best p!ss at about 12 eurons a lash.

More cheap from the POV of bars. If they were sold over the bar, they work out €3 cheaper than a normal shot.

GuanYin

joe_chicken wrote:

agreed!

we should give them all guns too and when kids start shooting themselves we can blame the gardai.. o yeah and the parents too!

(p.s. im not against the sachets, i just think thats a stupid argument)

I see Seamus got my answer in ahead of me so I'll ask you this...

Who exactly is "giving" kids alcohol? (seeing as your analogy has people "giving" kids guns).

Who is responsible for the behaviour of the kids and ensuring that alcohol (or indeed guns, as both are illegal for distribution to minors) isn't "given" (or even "sold") to kids.

Lemme see, that'd be the drinks company?...No...who could it be? Hrmmm

Oh wait, its the Off Licence's...... the Gardai and ...... the parents.....

:rolleyes:

joe_chicken

seamus wrote:

Um, how is that relevant. If guns were sold like alcohol was, then yes it would be an issue for Gardai and parents....

so what your sayin is: if something is dangerous to children let the parents or the gardai worry about it!

bullsh1t!

seamus

joe_chicken wrote:

so what your sayin is: if something is dangerous to children let the parents or the gardai worry about it!

bullsh1t!

No....
What I'm saying is, if something is dangerous to kids, then we legislate to protect those children from obtaining it, but allowing adults to obtain it. At that point its up to the parents, retailers and Gardai to enforce the law and ensure the child cannot bypass the law.

Society should not be limited because some people fail in their duty of care.

GuanYin

joe_chicken wrote:

so what your sayin is: if something is dangerous to children let the parents or the gardai worry about it!

bullsh1t!

Just about everything could be dangerous to children if mis-used. Thats why we have laws restricting the sale of certain substances to minors.

Of course, is you are arguing that these laws don't or shouldn't be there to protects us, then the case you make applies to all alcohol, drugs, medications, weapons, cigarettes etc etc

Children being allowed to sit in a pub drinking all night is dangerous to children, but you don't ban alcohol? You ensure that the publicans, parents and gardai stop children drinking in pubs.

Off Sale alcohol is the same, only off licence holders replace publicans in the equation.

Unless you are suggesting we ban all alcohol, your argument makes no sense as it ignores th elaws in place to regulate the sale of alcohol to minors.

joe_chicken

syke wrote:

I see Seamus got my answer in ahead of me so I'll ask you this...

Who exactly is "giving" kids alcohol? (seeing as your analogy has people "giving" kids guns).

Who is responsible for the behaviour of the kids and ensuring that alcohol (or indeed guns, as both are illegal for distribution to minors) isn't "given" (or even "sold") to kids.

Lemme see, that'd be the drinks company?...No...who could it be? Hrmmm

Oh wait, its the Off Licence's...... the Gardai and ...... the parents.....

:rolleyes:

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

seamus

joe_chicken wrote:

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

The necessary controls are already in place. The. Sachets. Are. Alcoholic. Drinks. They. Will. Be. Sold. Only. In. Off-Licences. To. Adults.

What's the difference?

GuanYin

joe_chicken wrote:

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

Dammit, seamus is quicker than me again.

I'm not sure I can figure out which part of the legislation involving the prohibition of the sale of alcohol to minors that you don't understand.

Or to put a finer point on it, which part of the legislation you seem to think relates to the companies choice of packaging and its effect in allowing the sale of alcohol to minors.

Gurgle

joe_chicken wrote:

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

Are you worried that kids experimenting with alcohol are going to choke on the sachets ?

I think they come with instructions.

joe_chicken

syke wrote:

Dammit, seamus is quicker than me again.

I'm not sure I can figure out which part of the legislation involving the prohibition of the sale of alcohol to minors that you don't understand.

Or to put a finer point on it, which part of the legislation you seem to think relates to the companies choice of packaging and its effect in allowing the sale of alcohol to minors.

no no no...

you miss my point... so i'll repeat

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

Boggle

joe_chicken wrote:

so what your sayin is: if something is dangerous to children let the parents or the gardai worry about it!

This is a behavioural problem and should be treated as such. Changing the wrapper doesn't create the problem ... IT WAS ALREADY THERE!

Anyway these things would be bloody awkward to carry around in any large quantity and not to forget when you get too drunk they'll prob spill when opened. Unlike a bottle which they can share - ending up in a drinking competition and which can then be readily used as a weapon when pissed.

Which wraper is more dangerous: glass or plastic????

GuanYin

joe_chicken wrote:

no no no...

you miss my point... so i'll repeat

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

So you think over the counter medicines should be banned I take it.

If a child takes excessive amounts they are potentially dangerous and of course there is no prohibition on their purchase.

Sale of cigarettes should be banned too, prescription pharmaceuticals, solvent spray cans, glue, alco-pops, alcohol in containers less than 1 litre in size (also appealing to kids apparently). Maybe even soft drinks as kids use them as mixers so they encourage alcoholic consumption?

If you make tha arguement for vodka in a sachet it applies to all the other stuff too (except maybe the soft drinks, I was just taking the piss outta you there).

Or maybe, we can avoid imposing some drachonian prohibitionist state and just expect alcohol retailers, law enforcers and parents to do their jobs?

Corben Dallas

NO

these will still be sold in Offies and not to under 18's etc.

I think the VFI are against them because there no way in hell that u'll get it € 1.50 a shot (theres no mark up in them)

unless the publicans charge €1.50 for the sachet and €2 for the glass of water, Result!
(* Im assuming that u mix it with water or maybe u get a red lolly to dip it into?)
MMMmmmmm Vodka Shebert!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Stark

Back to Puritism I say. Out with stained glass windows in churches and what the hell are those tall thin things with the little flames on top and coloured to attract children doing there? Oh and prohibition too, for God's sake think of the children!!