School taken Hostage by Chechen Terrorists

mike65

This from aljazzera.net

A school in southern Russia has been seized by an armed group holding up to 400 hostages including 200 school children.

The siege comes on the first day of the Russian school year, when it is likely that a large number of parents had accompanied their children to class.

A spokeswoman for President Vladimir Putin, Irina Terkina, said on Wednesday: "There could be up to 400 children and teachers held hostage."

A Russian news agency said the group, who have seized the school in the town of Beslan, in North Ossetia near Chechnya, were refusing to negotiate with the authorities.

Local authorities have said the kidnappers were bearing guns and were wrapped in suicide-bomb belts.

Shootings

Reports say three people have died in initial shootings as children were made to stand at the windows of the school to prevent security forces mounting a storming operation.

The hostage takers have threatened to blow up the building if police storm it, the Interfax news agency said.

Interior Ministry troops and police poured into the area around the school and officials reported an exchange of fire with the group, the latest in a wave of violence to hit Russia in recent days.

"One of the attackers was killed. We have no information about casualties among the civilians," Itar-Tass news agency said, quoting local police.

In a separate report, Itar - Tass said, without giving a source, that some teachers may have been killed.

An initial report had said a second school may also have been seized but this turned out not to be correct.

The Interfax news agency, citing Ismel Shaov, a regional spokesman for the Federal Security Service, said there were 17 attackers, both male and female.

There were no immediate reports of whether the assailants were making demands or indications of who they were.

Are there no depths to which radical Islamic Chechens won't go? Sadly this is certain to end in a blood-bath as "black widows" are reportedly part of the hostage taking group.

Mike.

arcadegame2004

What about the massacres of innocent civilians by the Russian Army?

We should condemn all atrocities in Chechnya - not just those the Russians allow us to see!

I obviously condemn this evil attack on innocent civilians by Chechen rebels - or a faction of them. Experience in NI has shown that splinter groups like the Real IRA, exist independently of the Provisional IRA. Given President Aslan Maskhadov's condemnation of similar kidnappings and hostage-takings in the past, this act today is probably the work of his rival during the autonomous years Shamil Basayev, who invaded Dagestan to unite it with Chechnya against Maskhadov's wishes in 1999.

Russia's behaviour in Chechnya is truly Nazi and Putin deserves to be brought before the ICC in the Hague. He is truly a monster.

Russia brought this on themselves by invading Chechya. The Russian's brutal treatment of their ethnic-minorities under Putin (including in Inguihetia where people are mysterious disappearing) has reaped a harvest of their own making.

flogen

It looks like Russia is going to have to do something serious very soon, 2 planes down, a suicide bombing and now this, all in the space of a week...

I dont know the conflict all that well, so I can't say what, but I can see Russia making the wrong move of armed force rather than dealing with it rationally and with a clear head.

flogen

Redleslie2

Will they remember to bring gas masks this time?

magick

Taking school kids hostage while the world is watching wont help their cause one bit, it will polarise the opinion of western goverenments/people to take a less tolerant stand against terrorism.

Redleslie2

magick wrote:

Taking school kids hostage while the world is watching wont help their cause one bit, it will polarise the opinion of western goverenments/people to take a less tolerant stand against terrorism.

Why should they care what the rest of the world thinks when nobody's done much of anything to stop Russian "excesses" in 10 years?

arcadegame2004

Taking school kids hostage while the world is watching wont help their cause one bit, it will polarise the opinion of western goverenments/people to take a less tolerant stand against terrorism.

So you call the hostage-takers "them", i.e. the Chechen separatists? That is to tar everyone with the same brush, like calling the Real IRA "those Irish Republicans". That is most unfair.

The Russian soldiers in Chechnya don't take prisoners that's for sure,

flogen

magick wrote:

Taking school kids hostage while the world is watching wont help their cause one bit, it will polarise the opinion of western goverenments/people to take a less tolerant stand against terrorism.

the point isn't to gain international support, its for the government they attack to gain national criticism.
After 3 terrorist attacks in a week, the Russian people are going to want answers from Putin, and they'll want him to do something. If he stages a big attack, he will stand to alienate himself from the rest of the world, and so he should be looking to deal with this peacefully. The rebels will hope he will just give up and let them have what they want for the sake of his public support. I'm not saying that would happen, but its probably the wishes of these attackers.

(also bear in mind that when you are dealing with fanatics who are willing to die for their cause, they are looking for nothing, in reality. They see this as a war, and they are just fighting back)

flogen

Hobart

arcadegame2004 wrote:

So you call the hostage-takers "them", i.e. the Chechen separatists? That is to tar everyone with the same brush, like calling the Real IRA "those Irish Republicans". That is most unfair.

The Russian soldiers in Chechnya don't take prisoners that's for sure,

You have been there so? Or maybe your basing your "factual statement" on what the 'russians' allow us to see?

arcadegame2004

After 3 terrorist attacks in a week, the Russian people are going to want answers from Putin, and they'll want him to do something. If he stages a big attack, he will stand to alienate himself from the rest of the world, and so he should be looking to deal with this peacefully. The rebels will hope he will just give up and let them have what they want for the sake of his public support. I'm not saying that would happen, but its probably the wishes of these attackers.

The Russian state-control of the media ensures that most Russians don't even know that fighting in Chechnya has been going on for years. They are being told that the fighting there ended years ago, apart from one or two terrorist incidents.

Having already rolled back democratic-hallmarks such as freedom of the media and freedom of assembly, I doubt that Putin will allow anything to stand in the way of his continuance in office and that of his lieutenants who he will aonoint to succeed him. I wouldn't be surprised if, having probably rigged the recent Chechen referendum and elections, if he were to do the same at national level.

Redleslie2

flogen wrote:

(also bear in mind that when you are dealing with fanatics who are willing to die for their cause, they are looking for nothing, in reality. They see this as a war, and they are just fighting back)

flogen

Who would you define a fanatic?

Sleipnir

Dear God, for once I actually find myself agreeing with ArcadeGame.

Russia have behaved dispicably in Chechnya. Without a doubt all reports on the atrocities that go on there are controlled by the russian media which is why you only ever hear of "Chechen rebels" attacking russian civilian targets not russia attacking Chechnyan targets (unless it's a 'pinpoint' strike on a known training ground)

You won't hear of Russian tanks rolling though towns and soldiers executing people.

Sleipnir

Of course there is the auld
"If you let use use airfields in the Caucasus, we'll keep quiet about what you do in Chechnya"


Agreements are in place to use airfields in Tajikistan. An air base is being built in Kyrgyzstan to hold 3000 troops. Gen. Tommy Franks vows to crush the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. Assistant Secretary of State Elizabeth Jones promises $160 million in aid. Some 1500 U.S. servicemen are already stationed there; 3000 American troops are in Kyrgyzstan. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz says the bases will serve to facilitate cooperation and training with the local military.

flogen

Redleslie2 wrote:

Who would you define a fanatic?

well, probably someone who believed in their cause so much that they were willing to blow themselves up, (and more importantly dozens of innocent people whom are unlikely to have anything to do with said cause) just to get their point into the public domain

In this situation, I would consider them fanatical.

flogen

arcadegame2004

Today in Russia, the Russian military tries to protect Russian children caught up in the hostage-crisis.

While in Chechnya, they slaughter children.

Shades of Hitler and the Nazis and the "Master Race" mentality.

Hobbes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

While in Chechnya, they slaughter children.

Hows about backing that up with a few news stories.

arcadegame2004

As you wish Hobbes.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3611629.stm

Rights groups condemn Chechen abuses
By Steve Rosenberg
BBC Moscow correspondent

Human rights organisations have issued a joint statement condemning what they say are widespread abuses in the Russian republics of Chechnya and Ingushetia.

The groups - including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch - say that despite Moscow's claims to have normalised the situation in the north Caucasus, the cycle of violence there continues.

Residents in Grozny, Chechnya
Human rights groups say there have been attacks against civilians
The Kremlin says that life in Chechnya is gradually returning to normal, but human rights organisations tell a very different story.

They have provided new evidence of rape, torture and summary execution of Chechen civilians by Russian troops and an increasingly powerful militia commanded by the son of Chechnya's pro-Moscow president, Ahmad Kadyrov.

And the violence is now reported to be spreading from Chechnya to neighbouring Ingushetia.

Anna Neistat, from Human Rights Watch said: "Over the last three months, we've documented a number of abductions and disappearances on the territory of Ingushetia as well as several attacks against civilians resulting in either deaths or serious injuries.

"Just like in Chechnya, the perpetrators of these abuses go unpunished and there is no accountability whatsoever."

Bomber

There is concern too that Chechen refugees in Ingushetia have come under strong pressure from the Russian authorities to return home.

That is something which Moscow denies, although it admits it intends to shut down all the refugee camps by the end of the month.

The report was published as a Chechen woman was sentenced to 20 years in prison for attempting to detonate a bomb in a Moscow restaurant last summer.

One bomb-disposal expert was killed when he tried to make the device safe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3831913.stm

Human rights violations continue to go unpunished in Chechnya, rights group Amnesty International says in a report.

The group says Russian security services in the republic are responsible for extrajudicial killings, "disappearances", torture and rape.

The report says the great majority of such crimes are carried out with impunity, and abuses are now spreading across the border to Ingushetia.

On Monday, attacks by Chechen rebels in Ingushetia left some 60 people dead.

Amnesty international has accused the international community for failing to address the problem.

'Normalisation'

In its title, the report picks up on a word used by Russian authorities to describe the situation in the republic: "Normalisation" In Whose Eyes?

The report says the situation is "far from normal", with "no end in sight to the conflict itself or accompanying human rights abuses".


There are certainly stories on both sides but what we see is that the ordinary people of Chechnya and now of Ingushetia have been caught in this
Kate Allen
Director, Amnesty International UK
Though the report condemns armed Chechen opposition groups for attacks on civilians, it reserves most of its fire for Russian and Russian-backed Chechen security services.

It says few families have remained unaffected by human rights abuses five years after the second armed conflict broke out in the Chechen Republic.

Despite orders from Russian President Vladimir Putin that raids by soldiers on civilian homes be reduced, the practice is still widespread, the report says.

Such raids often result in Chechens being taken away. Many do not return; they simply "disappear", the report says. Those that do make it home often speak of torture, rape and death threats.

Mute response

The report also documents an increase in the number of women being targeted since the Moscow theatre siege in October 2002, where many of the hostage-takers were female.

The report was published just 36 hours after attacks by rebels in neighbouring Ingushetia left some 60 people dead, and the report also documents a spread of abuses by security services there.

Amnesty concludes that the international community - notably the United Nations Commission on Human Rights - has been decidedly muted about the crisis in Chechnya, especially after the attacks on the US on 11 September 2001.

As a result of this, it says, Russia is failing to live up to its human rights obligations.

Hobbes

Ok I missed the bit where "Russians slaughter children". Prehaps you could post that, or did you pick the wrong term?

Redleslie2

Some photos of some massacre or other here.

marco murphy

Gimme time and ill show you links to pictures of what the russian army done to women over there.

Sand

This is only going to end in bloodshed. What can the Russians offer the terrorists? That theyll withdraw all their troops from Chechnya and safe passage for the terrorists? The Chechens would be extremely foolish to trust the Russians, and the Russians will never allow the Chechens to "vanish" with children or parents as hostages. The terrorists have refused to speak with local Muslim negotiators and last I heard they were disowned by the Chechen rebel command.

And on the other hand Putin has built his reputation on the hard man who can deal with Chechnya. You think hes going to humiliate himself and Russia by pulling out and escorting the hostage takers to the border? If anything theyll try and sieze on the vulnerability of the any hostages being moved to stage an assault - and the terrorists no doubt expect this too. Putin will get more out of a botched Russian attack than a surrender to a force so despicable as to butcher children - General Russian opinion regarding Chechens is extremely low and the 2002 theatre debacle didnt do Putin much harm afterall.

All the signs are this is going to be a massive bloodbath , a terrorist spectacular to punish Russians for their armies atrocities in Chechnya - to make them suffer, whether it is postive or negative to Chechnya.

The Russian army is going to go in eventually - either when they think theyve got an opportunity, or when the Chechnes start executing hostages. Only thing to hope for is that they make a better job of it than they did with the theatre.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Russia brought this on themselves by invading Chechya.

Chechnya is part of Russia.

flogen wrote:

I can see Russia making the wrong move of armed force rather than dealing with it rationally and with a clear head.

I can only see armed force ending this (not that I want it that way).

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0901/chechnya.html

Russian officials have said the gang has threatened to kill 50 schoolchildren for every one of their number killed by security forces.

They are all dead already and they know it.

pork99

The Chechens drove out the Russians in 1995. Then what happened? What did the Chechens do with their new-found independence? Checnya became a hotspot for terrorism, kidnapping, smuggling etc. Russia was faced with a rogue state within it's own borders, consequently they invaded in 2000.

I can see that at the time they had to do something about that. Unfortunately the Russian "kill them all and let God sort them out" appproach has not solved the problem, arguably made things worse. How do you exterminate the terrorists without turning the rest of the population into terrorists?

arcadegame2004

Chechnya is part of Russia.

Only in the colonial sense, whatever the legalistic minutia. Britain argued against the admission of the Irish representatives who attempted to gain entry to the Versailles peace-talks after WW1 on the grounds that we were "a solely British internal affair". Russia uses the same language.

"Internal affairs" is the age-old cry of the oppressor.

Lemming

I have to say ...

I am absolutely f*cking repulsed by some of the commentary being brought forth here, by the likes of ArcadeGame et al.

Whether or not Russia has "brought this upon itself" aside, this is just .... wrong. It's beyond wrong. "Abhorrent" would be the term I'd use.

Just like 9/11 may or may not have been brought upon the US by it's own foreign policy, it was a vile act against humanity. The fact that their own rebel command has disowned them perhaps speaks volumes .....

arcadegame2004

pork99 wrote:

The Chechens drove out the Russians in 1995. Then what happened? What did the Chechens do with their new-found independence? Checnya became a hotspot for terrorism, kidnapping, smuggling etc. Russia was faced with a rogue state within it's own borders, consequently they invaded in 2000.

I can see that at the time they had to do something about that. Unfortunately the Russian "kill them all and let God sort them out" appproach has not solved the problem, arguably made things worse. How do you exterminate the terrorists without turning the rest of the population into terrorists?

Well we too had a period of instability after we became independent, and Russia never actually recognised Chechnya as independent. The apartment-block bombings that were used as justification for the Russian invasion in 1999 were never claimed by the Chechens, but rather by a revolutionary-writers' organisation. Like ETA, the Chechens could be expected to admit responsibility if they had done it. Otherwise, what would have been the point, from their point of view?

Interestingly, copies of a book by a former FSB operative claiming that the Russian security-services were behind the bombings in order to give Putin a pretext to attack Chechnya were seized on the way into Russia from the Baltic states, with security forces citing that it was "anti-Government propaganda" as grounds for the seizures. Seems to me the authorities had something to hide - and have a HELL of a lot more to hide now.

mike65

Lemming wrote:

I have to say ...

I am absolutely f*cking repulsed by some of the commentary being brought forth here, by the likes of ArcadeGame et al.

Notice those two red squares.. its a win-win for the terrorists if they are blown to kingdom come they'll have suceeded in thier main aims. In fact its when not if, they did'nt go in to get back out alive with thier comrades freed
from jail. Thats not important nor is the fate of the average Chechnyan.

Its death and glory for Allah....

Mike.

arcadegame2004

Lemming wrote:

I have to say ...

I am absolutely f*cking repulsed by some of the commentary being brought forth here, by the likes of ArcadeGame et al.

Whether or not Russia has "brought this upon itself" aside, this is just .... wrong. It's beyond wrong. "Abhorrent" would be the term I'd use.

Just like 9/11 may or may not have been brought upon the US by it's own foreign policy, it was a vile act against humanity. The fact that their own rebel command has disowned them perhaps speaks volumes .....

I am repulsed by what the terrorists are doing to those poor children.

But the root cause of this is Russian genocide in Chechnya.

The wholesale destruction of races has to be the greater crime. And Russia has plenty of experience in that respect. Stalin actually deported the entire Chechen population to Siberia where tens of thousands died. The remainder were not allowed to return until the 1960's.

The Chechens are fighting for their very continued existence as a nation and indeed for their very physical survival - a survival threatened by the bloodthirsty barbarians that Putin is sending into Chechnya.

Your reaction to my post smacks of what Stalin had to say on death - when that one death is a tragedy - a million just statistics.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Maybe Stalin was right judging by your reaction to my post, when he said that one death is a tragedy - a million just statistics.

Of course wasn't it Stalin who started all this?

arcadegame2004

Well Victor I think Putin is a worthy heir to Stalin in his treatment of the Chechens. No wonder he admires him so much.

dathi1

Whether or not Russia has "brought this upon itself" aside, this is just .... wrong. It's beyond wrong. "Abhorrent" would be the term I'd use.

We have a situation here people who have been turned into Psycho Killers by what's happened personally to them in Chechnya. As was the case at the theatre siege in Moscow, Id say most if not all of the hostage takers have had their families wiped out by the Russian massacres in Grozny and now think the only good Russian no matter what age is a dead one.

Sand

We have a situation here people who have been turned into Psycho Killers by what's happened personally to them in Chechnya. As was the case at the theatre siege in Moscow, Id say most if not all of the hostage takers have had their families wiped out by the Russian massacres in Grozny and now think the only good Russian no matter what age is a dead one.

I dont think its worth the effort of trying to determine whose least vicious, or least responsible for their own actions, Those terrorists and those Russian war crinimals deserve each other. Unfotunately they both keep tormenting easy victims rather than tackling each other.

Redleslie2

dathi1 wrote:

We have a situation here people who have been turned into Psycho Killers by what's happened personally to them in Chechnya. As was the case at the theatre siege in Moscow, Id say most if not all of the hostage takers have had their families wiped out by the Russian massacres in Grozny and now think the only good Russian no matter what age is a dead one.

Yeah I read somewhere that this generation of Chechens has grown up mostly illiterate and 8 out of 10 children have psychological problems due to trauma from all the war and stuff.

SkepticOne

Victor wrote:

Of course wasn't it Stalin who started all this?

Goes back a little further than that apparently:

This is not the first time that Russian leaders have had problems with people in the Caucus region. Back in 1817, the Czar's armies needed almost 50 years to subdue the Chechens, in which they finally succeeded in 1864. General Aleksei Yermolov, who fought the Chechens at that time, said, "These people can never be pacified. They can only be annihilated." The General was right. In the 19th century, the only thing that the Czars succeeded in doing was killing half the population in the area. When Stalin had problems with the Chechens almost a hundred years later, he simply deported them en masse. Unfortunately for Yeltsin, he has no such option. [source]

Hobbes

Poblachtach wrote:

Gimme time and ill show you links to pictures of what the russian army done to women over there.

I am well aware of what happens over there, and "slaughtering children" I haven't seen or heard about. Certainly children have been killed or other effects, but slaughtering.. no.

Yeah I read somewhere that this generation of Chechens has grown up mostly illiterate and 8 out of 10 children have psychological problems due to trauma from all the war and stuff.

Which sounds like what I have read.

Sparks

Hobbes, does it count as slaughtering children if they're killed when FAEs are used on cities?

Hobbes

First up all this "Russia deserves it" sh!t is extremly tasteless. Especially when it was going on.

Second, "slaughtering children" term defines that Russia is rounding up large numbers of Children and killing them. I assume that AG2004 was just using the term "slaughtering" to help hype up his posts as usual .

arcadegame2004

Well Hobbes, here is some evidenece for my contention:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3184161.stm

Rape and death in Chechnya
The family of a Chechen girl killed by a Russian officer accepted political asylum in Norway last month. Before they left, Sapiet Dakhshukaeva talked to them about their ordeal, and their views on the jailing of the culprit.

On 26 March 2000 Russia went to the polls to elect a president, but the Chechen village of Tangi-Chu was under military blockade, as it had been for more than a month.


THE TANGI-CHU BLOCKADE
Aim: to 'cleanse' the village of rebels and block a key road
In 'cleansing operations' troops surround a village and take men away for interrogation
Human rights groups link them with torture, disappearances, and summary execution
Soldiers of the 160th Russian tank division prevented anyone entering or leaving the village, cutting it off entirely from the outside world.

Meanwhile, three armed personnel carriers drove around, spreading terror among the local residents.

Mounted on one of the armed cars was an officer, whose face was well known, even though almost no-one knew his name.

The Kungayev family lived on the very edge of the village. Like other families they usually put their children to bed in their clothes, to be ready for any emergency.


Rosa Bashaeva
I have suffered, my daughter has suffered, and tomorrow it will be someone else - no-one can insure themselves against it
Rosa Kungayeva
They had three daughters - Elsa, Khava and Larisa - and two sons - Khavazhi and Khassi - all of whom were all asleep when a military vehicle rolled up to the house at 1am in the morning.

The father, Visa, heard automatic rifles being loaded outside the door, and assumed the soldiers had come for him - it did not occur to him that they might want his children.

As the mother, Rosa, was not at home that night, he woke the eldest daughter, Elsa (also known as Kheda), and told her to rouse the others quickly, before he slipped out to get help.

The children recalled later that the soldiers spent only five to seven minutes in the house.

There was no search. They seized Khava first, who was then only 13 years old, but let her go when they saw her elder sister, 18-year-old Elsa.

As they grabbed her by the hands and led her away, she cried to her younger brothers and sisters to defend her.

Her father's younger brother, Adlan, ran over from a neighbouring house - but the officer, Budanov, showered him with obscenities and struck him with the butt of his rifle, leaving the children in shock.

In the hallway Elsa lost consciousness. Then the visitors wrapped her in a rug and took her away.

'Quiet night'

What happened next, the whole world now knows, from the trial that continued on and off for more than two years in the North Caucasus district military court, in Rostov-on-Don: Elsa was raped and strangled.

Budanov checking documents in Tangi-Chu in March 2000
Blockade: Budanov checking documents in Tangi-Chu
But when Budanov reported to his chiefs the next morning he said the night in Tangi-Chu had passed quietly, and without incident.

Elsa's case is not an isolated one. Human rights organisations have documented hundreds of disappearances since 1999 - of women as well as men.

The frequency of rape and sexual assault is unknown and unknowable, though rumours abound in Chechen villages.

There have been few official complaints, partly because of the risk of reprisals, and partly because of local taboos. A woman who is known to have been raped is unlikely to find a husband, and a married woman may well be divorced.

Colonel Yuri Budanov
In court: Convicted of murder, never tried for rape
"This, obviously, is to the advantage of the soldiers," says Eliza Musaeva, a representative of the human rights organisation, Memorial, in the neighbouring republic of Ingushetia.

"If something happened, it is considered shameful... People try to hide the fact because they have to somehow continue living in this society."

Sexual assault is also notoriously unprovable, because of the lack of witnesses - but in Elsa's case, her dead body bore clear evidence of rape.

At first Budanov was charged with it, but then another young soldier admitted responsibility. He was later pardoned in an amnesty.

No consolation

According to a study by Memorial of 51 soldiers convicted of crimes in Chechnya, two found guilty of rape were given suspended sentences.

Elsa's brothers and sisters in Ingushetia tent camp
The family moved to a refugee camp in Ingushetia after the killing
Budanov himself almost avoided jail for murder, when his lawyers persuaded judges he was temporarily insane at the time of the killing. He was only convicted after a higher court ordered a re-trial.

When I met Elsa's mother, Rosa, in a refugee camp in the Ingush village of Karabulak, officials of Russia's ultranationalist Liberal Democratic Party were talking about naming Budanov as a candidate in this year's parliamentary elections.

"We are afraid that he might be put forward for parliament," she said, as the cheerful squeaking of chicks resting around our feet broke the gloomy silence of the tidily kept tent.

Rosa, in her grief, seemed oblivious to the surroundings. Wiping away tears, she said: "It makes no difference what sentence they give Budanov, it won't give us any consolation. Our daughter will never come home..."

She was convinced that while Budanov has been jailed, many like him have gone unpunished.

"The most awful thing is that such people (when they leave Chechnya) then travel all over Russia in all directions. I have suffered, my daughter has suffered, and tomorrow it will be someone else. No-one can insure themselves against it."

There are many other similar stories too. Can they all be wrong?

First up all this "Russia deserves it" sh!t is extremly tasteless.

Of course the children and their families don't "deserve" it. But it is a predictable reaction to years of genocide in Chechnya in which many have become desperate. Putin has driven people to extremes by his own extreme Nazi repression. He has just installed his latest Vichy-regime under the puppet president Alu Alkhanov - a Marshall Petain-type. We should not give any credence to it because those elections were a sham with more popualr candidates disqualified. At least Vichy did not pretend to be democratic.

Hobbes

I was complaining about your use of "Slaughtering Children". As I said, I am well aware of what goes on there, and nothing you have posted so far supports your accusation of slaughtering.

So post the facts, not sensationalism.

I also your posts are in poor taste for a reason. Lets take bashing American issues which has always gone on, but you will be hard pressed to find posts of "Yous deserved it" while 9/11 was happening.

Redleslie2

Well this is how a BBC journalist described a 1999 rocket attack on Grozny which hit a market and maternity hospital.

Thursday's slaughter of civilians at Grozny's market and maternity hospital is probably just a taste of worse to come.

Human Rights Watch also has a report called "FEBRUARY 5: A DAY OF SLAUGHTER IN NOVYE ALDI" here.

See? Sllllllaughter.


Ultimately, who is responsible for this type of thing, the grunts, the military hierarchy or Putin himself?

Hobbes

Redleslie2 wrote:

Well this is how a BBC journalist described a 1999 rocket attack on Grozny which hit a market and maternity hospital.

Yes but does it say "Russians slaughtering children"?

Ultimately, who is responsible for this type of thing, the grunts, the military hierarchy or Putin himself?

Which is more the point I am trying to drive.

arcadegame2004

I also your posts are in poor taste for a reason. Lets take bashing American issues which has always gone on, but you will be hard pressed to find posts of "Yous deserved it" while 9/11 was happening.

I'm not saying that Russian civilians "deserve" it. They don't. But if those being held hostage were the Russian soldiers who had taken part in massacres of Chechen civilians, then yes, I feel THEY would have deserved it, as it would just be them getting a little taste of the avalanche of barbaric cruelty they have been meating out for the last 5 years and during the 1994 war.

And I never said that the US deserved 911. Please do not misrepresent me.

Redleslie2

Hobbes wrote:

Yes but does it say "Russians slaughtering children"?

Well if you bomb a maternity hospital it's odds on that you're going to bag a few kiddies.

A reporter for the French news agency, AFP, counted 27 bodies at the maternity hospital - most of them women and new-born babies.

Does killing civilians including kiddies with aerial and artillery bombardment count as slaughter?

Cork

Terrorists believe they are fighting a war. But when the army or police force stoop to the same level of these terrorists their is outcry.

Taking civialians hostage and making demands on elected governments is barbaric.

We see this in Iraq with the taking of journalists and business men.


Do the Chechens think they are doing they "cause" any good?

dathi1

Do the Chechens think they are doing they "cause" any good?

I don't think they care about international opinion since International opinion doesn't really care much about them. They probably realise they are a lost cause and so they're out on a revenge attack. Speaking of killing children...those cowardly stratospheric fighters are at it again in Fallujah today. Talk about psychotic terrorists.

arcadegame2004

Do the Chechens think they are doing they "cause" any good?

You use the definite article "the". It is important to recognise that the deposed (and elected democratically) Chechen Government of Aslan Maskhadov has condemned the kidnappings.

The Russian military in Chechnya are also terrorists.

Russia should clear off out of Chechnya and learn civilised behaviour. It needs to be housetrained in democracy and human-rights.

seamus

Cork wrote:

Terrorists believe they are fighting a war. But when the army or police force stoop to the same level of these terrorists their is outcry.

Yep. "Eye for an eye" doesn't cut it anymore, mainly because we've found that attempts to give as good as we got, end up hurting people who had nothing to do with it, those that we thought we were trying to save.

Taking civialians hostage and making demands on elected governments is barbaric.

It sure is. What would drive a person to such a thing? I mean, can you imagine yourself doing something like that? Can you comprehend what it would take to make you so desperate to stoop to that barbarism? This is why attacking the problem will never work - "cleansing" of terrorist camps, waging war on those who would support the terrorists, or who would be suspected of being terrorists, will never work. It will never remove the terrorists. It's the same old story. One terrorists is killed, fighting for what he believes in, and another takes his place - his brother, his son, his nephew, his sister, whoever.

You need to attack the cause. These people are at barbaric levels. You hardly think that fighting barbarism with barbarism will work. You need to address the cause, you need to find out why people become terrorists in the first place, what is driving them, and deal with that.

Do the Chechens think they are doing they "cause" any good?

Do the PIRA think they're doing their cause any good? Do you think they care? Terrorist groups aren't at the mercy of the public in general. Governments need the approval of a country as a whole. Terrorists don't. They only need the approval of a small amount of people who will support and sustain them.

sapat

I don't understand why the term colateral damage is used when NATO bombs a civilian serbs' train, TV station or a hospital in Iraq, while the same action from the Russian military is condemned as terrorism?
The main diffrence between the military and the terrorists is the latter target specifically civilians because the lack the capabilities or the courage(or both) to target the enemy. Having said that I believe both wars in Iraq and in Chechnya are wrong (there is a long list of reasons). But from this point on I wouldn't say Chechen cause has a chance. These guys made Putin a huge present, even if most people do not realize this yet.
By the way these pictures (the mass graves) show mostly man, who may have been militants. So they prove little to substabtiate arcadegame2004 point.

arcadegame2004

I don't understand why the term colateral damage is used when NATO bombs a civilian serbs' train, TV station or a hospital in Iraq, while the same action from the Russian military is condemned as terrorism?

The Russian military IS deliberately targeting innocent civilians in Chechnya, according to all the major human-rights groups. That is why they wont let the Western media into Chechnya. Russia is a genocidal Nazi state and the Russophiles on this forum had better wake up and realise that, instead of this pathetic Vichyite mindset some of you seem to have.

sapat

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Russian military IS deliberately targeting innocent civilians in Chechnya, according to all the major human-rights groups. That is why they wont let the Western media into Chechnya. Russia is a genocidal Nazi state and the Russophiles on this forum had better wake up and realise that, instead of this pathetic Vichyite mindset some of you seem to have.

Wow, hold your horses! If you just hate the Russians this is one thing- then there is no sense talking to you.
But the Western media is not in Chechnya, because hostage taking is a good bussiness there and some times it goes wrong - like when a hostage is found with his throat slit.
In a summary Russia does not do anything different to Chechnya than England to Ireland/Scotland, Irish/Scotts to Indians, Turks to Armenians/Bulgarians etc.
And if you are here for name calling it means you just don't have facts to work with.

Mercury_Tilt

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