Road signs! Where? Back there!

sliabh

pork99 wrote:

There is a lack of user-centred design. Here the road directions are presented according the NRA's classification model and not the needs & priorities of people using the roads.

If it were easy to figure out the priorities you might agree. But I am sure there are as many people going down the N7 to Limerick (feeding Limerick, Clare and Kerry) as the N6 (Cork and Tipp). So how do you assign decide which takes priority. The numerical priority seems a reasonable compromise.

sliabh

I need to post an apology and retraction. I was wrong when I stated National Tool Roads had got a 30 year concession for the Westlink in exchange for the M50 upgrade work. The concession in only 15 years and there is no requirement for additional works to be completed on the M50.

http://www.sbpost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-758176385-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FNews.asp"

They had proposed the work but the NRA rejected their submission.

Alun

sliabh wrote:

If it were easy to figure out the priorities you might agree. But I am sure there are as many people going down the N7 to Limerick (feeding Limerick, Clare and Kerry) as the N6 (Cork and Tipp). So how do you assign decide which takes priority. The numerical priority seems a reasonable compromise.

I'd have thought the most likely explanation for the N7 appearing first on the sign is quite simply that the road actually IS the N7! The roads that later on branch off it (N8 and N9) just happen to have higher numbers that's all, and should quite rightly be placed under the main road number in brackets together with their destinations.

It's also quite obvious that road signs should read the same regardless of what direction you're coming from I would have thought. I suppose they could just be second guessing the typical routes people take, and could be assuming that people wanting to go to a particular place would have taken a different route if they had been coming from another direction, but that doesn't help those unfamiliar with the area such as tourists, or those who are lost.

mackerski

Victor wrote:

No, it goes to Ballyshannon. Now separately, it might yes be an idea to extend it to Donegal town, but thats a separate argument.

As others have noted, it's often difficult to decide what the best description of a route is - clearly, you want everybody to recognise that their destination will be serviced by the road they end up taking. Sometimes the end destination is favoured internationally (esp. for long-distance roads), or, where relevant, an umbrella term (The West, Scotland, Slovenien) or a known transit point (Innsbruck, München, Brenner).

To return to the Irish case, you could signpost the N4 for Kinnegad, though that would serve the interests of very few visitors. The N3 is a funny one, disappearing as it does just after Belturbet across the border and into a new numbering scheme (where your route number will change as you follow the notional N3). What you expect to see signposted on the N3 depends on your circumstances. As a D15 local, I know it as the Navan Road (the closest destination of any consequence). Most of the signs highlight the main destination of Cavan (last "civilisation" before the border).

The Ballyshannon thing is a funny one, though - At Cabra Cross, you see the first big N3 destinations table. It doesn't (or didn't) list Ballyshannon, but instead "Donegal South". This seems very sensible, since traffic for Donegal North should be taking the N2 via Strabane. However, they _do_ provide a distance to Donegal S., which seems funny. Near Blanchardstown the sign names Ballyshannon (and gives a distance). The fact is, the N3 serves so few big destinations that the signs can name most of them.

Dermot

gurramok

Where the M50 finishes northside and heading south onto the M1 towards town is now a makeshift slip road due to the port tunnel.

I had the pleasure of driving on this slip road only for it to end suddenly on a downhill slope and join up with the 'main' road which is out of visibility without any STOP or YIELD sign nor road markings, bloody lethal for any first-timer on that section like myself, I had to jam on the brakes at the last minute when I saw traffic approaching from my right at the corner of my eye.

it's so lethal it gave me a fright that day. :mad:

pork99

Alun wrote:

It's also quite obvious that road signs should read the same regardless of what direction you're coming from I would have thought. I suppose they could just be second guessing the typical routes people take, and could be assuming that people wanting to go to a particular place would have taken a different route if they had been coming from another direction, but that doesn't help those unfamiliar with the area such as tourists, or those who are lost.

Has anyone ever analysed how the traffic coming of the M50 at those junctions breaks down by destination? Surely no matter which road the junction primarily links to if let's say 60% of the traffic is going to Galway, 30% going to Sligo and 10% going to Donegal then shouldn't the signs reflect this?

I think people think in terms of their destination first. They think about the road number second or third, if at all and people, who do that tend to be consulting maps. They'll think "I'm going to Galway - I'll have to use the N4" not "there's the N4, that will get me to Galway"

sliabh

Well the way this is done everywhere else is by the road number. The onus is on the driver to have a basic knowledge of the road number to their destination.

My main experience of transcontinental driving is from the north of France to the Alps and when we hit Paris we knew that we were looking for the signs for the "A6" not the signs for Lyon/Grenoble. It's similar when I have driven in the US, I look for "I95" not Chicago.

mackerski

sliabh wrote:

Well the way this is done everywhere else is by the road number. The onus is on the driver to have a basic knowledge of the road number to their destination.

In Germany there tends to be a mix of this approach with one based on key waypoints - indeed, originally the Autobahnen didn't have numbers, but were named for their key destinations - Salzburger, Nürnberger, Passauer (though that last one was never finished, and ends just outside Munich, with one tiny extra stretch in the middle of nowhere, so you'd actually never use it for its named destination).

Another reason why the clever navigator can benefit from navigation my waypoint is that it allows dynamic signposting where several possible routes exist. You see this around a few German cities, and it allows them to direct people off badly congested stretches - but if you are tied to your chosen road number and don't know that your next waypoint is Nürnberg then you're a bit knacked.

Dermot

LFCFan

Why don't any of the 'Motorways' in this country use Exit Numbers? They make so much more sense. So, 2 miles before the 'Exit' for Cork off the N7 you see a big sign which says, Exit 3 - Cork (M8) and then as you approach the Exit for Cork you see another big sign with Exit 3 at the very top and then the main destinations of this Exit. Just like they do in America. It's nigh on impossible to get very lost in America once you know what Exits you need to take and despite the fact there are many more lanes there than here, you still have plenty of time to get across to take you exits because there are so many signs, in plenty of time for each exit.

sliabh

Each of the exits from the M50 has an exit number. They just are not given huge prominence. The signs focus on the neighborhoods instead. I think the Tallaght exit is 9 for instance.

mackerski

LFCFan wrote:

Why don't any of the 'Motorways' in this country use Exit Numbers?

Some do - the M50 anyway. I'd like to see them on the nearly finished M1, and the M7 will soon have need of them too.

LFCFan wrote:

Just like they do in America. It's nigh on impossible to get very lost in America once you know what Exits you need to take...

As usual, the Americans are not at all predictable:

(from http://home.att.net/~texhwyman3/us_euro/us-ger.html)

States decide either milepost or interchange based numbering. California does not use any exit numbering at all, and Illinois does not post exit numbers on their tollways at all.

Dermot

Bee

Dearie Me Victor! Did some nice person in DCC give you that figure?

Victor wrote:

The scrapped signs cost €8,000.

I don't know where you got the €8,000 from, perhaps the scrap value of the metal after the mess made by DCC?

I have e-mails from various TD's/ Councillors with figures...

Take into account the real cost to the taxpayer...There was the enormous cost 150K to €200K for the signs plus the printing cost of a glossy brochure with detailed graphics showing the new inner and outer orbital routes. There was also the bill for posting out the brochures to almost 500,000 homes in the greater Dublin area never mind the "consultants" involved.

Bee

Victor

Bee wrote:

What about the fiasco by DCC that costed the tax payer 150k + Euros because they failed to consult with Shame on Brennan and the idiotically designed Dublin city centre road signs had to be scrapped! Any other city manager would have resigned in shame.

Victor wrote:

The scrapped signs cost €8,000.

Bee wrote:

I don't know where you got the €8,000 from, perhaps the scrap value of the metal after the mess made by DCC? I have e-mails from various TD's/ Councillors with figures... Take into account the real cost to the taxpayer...There was the enormous cost 150K to €200K for the signs plus the printing cost of a glossy brochure with detailed graphics showing the new inner and outer orbital routes. There was also the bill for posting out the brochures to almost 500,000 homes in the greater Dublin area never mind the "consultants" involved.

The €8,000 was for the few signs that were bought initially and not (at that time) used. The ~=€200,000 is for the signs that were used and are currently used (including the leaflets presumably). That €200,000 wasn't wasted.

Separately, an amount of money is being spent this year to add some additional signs.

Bee wrote:

I have e-mails from various TD's/ Councillors with figures...

Care to show us?

Bee wrote:

Dearie Me Victor! Did some nice person in DCC give you that figure?

No, Eoin Keegan did.

sliabh

Bee wrote:

never mind the "consultants" involved.

Part of the problem was that the consultants were not retained. A group of signage experts was brought in to do a one day training course. The various powers that be felt that this was sufficient and the signs were then designed in house. The resulting mess is what was rejected by Brennan.

It would have made more sense to either get an expert firm to do all the work, or to provide proper training to the people who ended up doing it.

mrhappy42

lets be honoust a training course is not going to be a key element to what is in essence common sense or just a case of stealing ideas from others.

Most people here seems to have some idea of what is and is not acceptable so cant be that difficult. I also think that the EU has basic standards on which they could have build.

I must give them credit for trying to change things thats a big step in this country.

mackerski

mrhappy42 wrote:

I must give them credit for trying to change things thats a big step in this country.

Experimentation is certainly a very worthy thing. To try out a new and radical (in the sense of being nothing like anything anywhere else in the world) signage scheme, you could dummy up a few of the signs full-size on stiff card and run a focus group. Then they could tell you the idea sucked without you going to the expense of a ganseyload of real signs, a huge print run, an information campaign and, of course, all that public humiliation.

Dermot

Andrew Duffy

Just got this in response to a question about Junction numbers on motorways and dual carriageways:

My question:

I would like to know if there is any intention to number the junctions on the growing network of motorways and grade-separated dual carriageways. I have noticed that on the M1, the close spacing of junctions north of Drogheda is very confusing - there are three exits signposted for Ardee, with only the third being suitable for long-distance traffic heading for Derry.
The lack of numbers on motorways other than the M50 seems to be a retrograde step - older maps numbered the junctions on the original sections of M1 and M7, but newer maps do not.

Regards,

Andrew Duffy

The reply:

Dear Andrew,

Thank you for your email regarding signage on roads. The Authority is currently in the process of addressing the signage system on the M1 and on other new roads where confusion has arisen. The signage system will be upgraded in a coordinated manner taking into account traffic flow changes which have arisen over the last while due to new road schemes. All new signs will be designed in accordance with the Department of the Environment's Traffic Signs Manual which is the current standard for signing and road marking.

Kind Regards,
Olga Houlihan

mackerski

It would be interesting to get a look at the Department's signs manual - presumably it's the same document that defines the no-overtaking sign to be the same as that of every other country, but with a line through it...

Dermot

mrhappy42

mackerski wrote:

Experimentation is certainly a very worthy thing. To try out a new and radical (in the sense of being nothing like anything anywhere else in the world) signage scheme, you could dummy up a few of the signs full-size on stiff card and run a focus group. Then they could tell you the idea sucked without you going to the expense of a ganseyload of real signs, a huge print run, and information campaign and, of course, all that public humiliation.

Dermot

In some organisations its better to try it before the whole company gets involved and freezes itself...kinda like easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

I've seen this while doing consultancy for the goverment in the past.

However...you are right in that they could have done some focus groups.

Mercury_Tilt

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parsi

What I dislike about signage is the lack of signs for shopping centres etc - I find (being from outside Dublin) that finding Liffey Valley or Blanchardstown can be difficult - the exit is upon you before you know it. In France (for example) there are plenty of little signs telling you to take (for example) the Rennes-Sud exit to get to the Geant hypermarket, after that esit then there are more little signs telling you things like "turn right at the second set of lighst" etc etc. IN France I never got lost going to a hypermarket but in Ireland its way harder...

Victor

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Whoot! Signage funding deficit to be funded by Merc!

sceptre

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I've had some degree of negative fun in south Dublin with this. A car swear jar doesn't seem like such a bad idea. "Oh , look I'm in a housing estate. But the sign said.... Dammit to hell"

Andrew Duffy

A clearer response from the NRA:

I refer to your email of 23 August 2004 regarding the above.

At present, on most of our Major Interurban (MIU) Routes there are no continuous lengths of motorway / high quality dual carriageway but rather we have isolated lengths of motorway/dual carriageway with grade separated junctions bypassing towns such as Portlaoise, Newbridge, Glanmire, etc, and ordinary single carriageway roads with at-grade junctions on the remainder, hence, a junction numbering system would not have been feasible up to now. There is however, a huge programme of road development currently underway on the MIU routes, and the Authority is at present looking into a system of junction numbering where the numbers will run sequentially along the entire length of the routes, similar to the system used on the UK and other major motorway networks.

I hope this clarifies the current position.

Bee

Victor wrote:

Care to show us?No, Eoin Keegan did.

Who's "Eoin Keegan" then? ....Perhaps you shouldn't swallow everything your friend Eoin tells you...

Try this chap..From the DCC website..."http://www.dublincity.ie/profile/contacts2.html"

Deputy City Manager & Director of Traffic, Owen P. Keegan, Tel: +353-1-722033/2837

Bee

GerardKeating

GerardKeating wrote:

Galway is sign posted, at least when heading North from Tallaght, not sure about the other direction.

And also from the other direction. Sligo and Galway are clearly signed posted just before the Toll Bridge.

GreeBo

sliabh wrote:

Each of the exits from the M50 has an exit number. They just are not given huge prominence. The signs focus on the neighborhoods instead. I think the Tallaght exit is 9 for instance.

Yeah, but most of the time the sign is either amongst the trees or is right at the junction, in the "Y".
Perfectly visible as you drive past the exit you wanted....

sliabh

GreeBo wrote:

Yeah, but most of the time the sign is either amongst the trees or is right at the junction, in the "Y".
Perfectly visible as you drive past the exit you wanted....

Other than a wish to have exits prominently marked by exit numbers I can't say that I have ever had a problem with the major route signs on the M50.