Men's 5000m - Irish reps.

eirebhoy

The semi's were on last night with an Irishman in both heats. Alistair Cragg came 7th in his heat and qualifies for the final with a time of 13.23. Mark Carroll came 15th (4rd last) in his heat with a time of 13.47. Sief got the best time over the two heats with 13.19 and Bekele (world record holder, 12.37) won the first heat with 13.21.

The winner of the 2000 Sydney Olympics won with a time of 13.35. Cragg has a PB of 13.12 which he got just last month.

BTW, Cragg is the only European and one of 3 non-African's out of 15 in the final. So he's effectively representing Europe.

Heat 1
Heat 2

Amz

I saw Allistair Cragg interviewed last night on RTÉ and I was very impressed with him. He seemed very level headed and undaunted by the whole thing. He said the main reason he'd gone to the front of his heat was because he was an unknown entity to the other competitors an as such they would have tried to box him in or push him out of contention. He's definitely one to look out for.

Mark Carroll was also interviewed, he seems to be very honest with himself, he's come to the realisation that he is perhaps, at 32, a little too old to be competing at such track meets and is now planning on furthering his marathon career. He ran around 2:10:00 (I think) in the New York marathon earlier this year.
He also expressed his annoyance at the OCI's early qualifying time, believing that this forced athletes to peak too early in order to achieve the standard so early in the season thus reducing their chances at the games.

K!LL!@N

Seems like a very level-headed guy.
Not afraid of the africans and not afraid to get out there and push himself, as he did.
It'd be great to see him go out and give a personal best, even if that doesn't mean a medal.
Looks like one to watch for the future.

Mark Carroll gave a good honest interview after his heat.
I think he's right about the qualifying limits set by the OCI.
The IOC sets the deadline as 2 weeks before the event.
I don't know about other countrys but the US olympic trials were only held about a month before the olympics, which seems to make more sense.
I'm not an athlete myself, far from it, but it seems to me that athletes should be allowed to set their qualifying time according to IOC regulations.
And if OCI wants to hold final trials hold them closer to the IOC deadline.
Then maybe the athletes can start to peak for the trials and fully peak come the olympics.

Also, someone should have handed Mark a towel.
He had something hanging from his chin throughout the whole interview. :eek:

Killian

ecksor

Where you say IOC there I think you mean IAAF. The OCI's treatment of track and field over the last few olympics should be a national scandal in my opinion.

And if OCI wants to hold final trials hold them closer to the IOC deadline.

For Sydney and Athens the national championships (which should be the trials for the team) were held after the team had been picked. Yes, the situation is actually that ridiculous. Also, the trials serve a different function from the qualification standards. Standards are there to be met before you are allowed to be considered for selection for the Olympic games. The trials are then a head to head situation where all athletes who are eligible for selection battle it out to decide who gets sent. USA champions often provisionally make their national team without having the standard and then spend the time remaining between the trials and the end of the qualification period trying to achieve the required standard so that they can be formally selected.

Pherekydes

eirebhoy wrote:

BTW, Cragg is the only European and one of 3 non-African's out of 15 in the final. So he's effectively representing Europe.

Cragg is African!

Pherekydes

K!LL!@N wrote:

Not afraid of the africans and not afraid to get out there and push himself, as he did.

Why should he be? He's African himself.

Amz

I'm not sure why that's an issue.
Most people don't seem to be bothered by the fact that most of Ireland's soccer players aren't "really Irish". Likewise with some of our rugby players.

Pherekydes

It's not an issue.
Just pointing out that he's an African, not a European.

I welcome them all. We have enough Nigerians living here now. Where are the sprinters? Ditto Eastern Europeans and field events.

Amz

Hrm.

K!LL!@N

Slow coach wrote:

Why should he be? He's African himself.

Oh yeah, you're right....lol.

You know what i mean though.

Killian

The Rooster

Alastair's mother's parents were both Irish, so he has Irish blood in him and he's well entitled to call himself Irish or European. Certainly more entitled than, for example, multiple European Champion Wilson Kipketer.

I didnt realise no other Europeans qualified. Is Cragg the only white? Good achievement and hopefully we've a European champion in the making.

I'd like to echo the above and say how well both Cragg and Carroll came across. Two great guys, and amazed how level headed they could be immediately after a race, especially with Tony O'Donoghue asking them about 20 questions each. That was in sharp contrast to the English 200m runners (Malcolm and particularly Campbell) who were interviewed on the same day and who just cried and complained and made excuses, and still managed to come across as totally big headed.

eirebhoy

Slow coach wrote:

Cragg is African!

Francis Obikwelu is a Nigerian representing Portugal. He's eligible because he has lived in Portugal for a number of years. There's plenty of people like Obikwelu, at least Cragg is half Irish.

eirebhoy

I'm not well up on Athletics but maybe someone could explain this. In the mens 5000m at the Sydney Olympics the fastest time in the round 1 heats was 13.22 but the winner in the final got a time of 13.35. Is it all to do with tactics and people running too fast too early, etc? If so, why don't people run their own race and set a target time?
Cheers.

ecksor

It wasn't about running too fast too early (the medallists will be guys capable of running 13:00 or probably better), but more to do with early laps being very slow. Championship finals over the longer distances are usually tactical affairs with a few slow laps early on. In the case of a heat you'll often get someone leading out the pace, especially in a latter heat as some athletes who don't fancy their chances of an automatic qualification time will make the pace to ensure that they beat the fastest loser times from the previous heats.

If so, why don't people run their own race and set a target time?

Anyone doing that would set themselves up for a fall (remember how Paula Radcliffe used to run Finals? Well, it's how she still runs finals I guess except recently she's been outclassing athletes on the track). They'd be target rabbits for everyone else to hang onto for most of the race. It's generally accepted that to lead the race is to do more work. This is probably mostly a psychological thing, although there were some studies a few years ago too showing that the reduced wind resistance of trailing an athlete did have a significant effect on a person's lap times for effort expended.

iasc

Amz wrote:

I'm not sure why that's an issue.
Most people don't seem to be bothered by the fact that most of Ireland's soccer players aren't "really Irish". Likewise with some of our rugby players.

Most irish soccer players are irish, the most non-irish players youll ever really get in the first team with a full squad available is 3. He's not Irish, the only time he was in Ireland before he joined our athletics squad was when he was runing for South Africa in Belfast.

eirebhoy

iasc wrote:

Most irish soccer players are irish, the most non-irish players youll ever really get in the first team with a full squad available is 3. He's not Irish, the only time he was in Ireland before he joined our athletics squad was when he was runing for South Africa in Belfast.

A few English born players play for the Ireland football team because they can't get their game for Ireland but why would Cragg want to represent Ireland if he regards himself as South African? Surely he would have made the South African team as there's no S.African in tomorrows final.

iasc

eirebhoy wrote:

A few English born players play for the Ireland football team because they can't get their game for Ireland but why would Cragg want to represent Ireland if he regards himself as South African? Surely he would have made the South African team as there's no S.African in tomorrows final.

so he can take part in european championships...he used to represent south africa...as far as i know, he only qualifies for ireland cos of the oul granny rule

Amz

Unlike the three chaps who play for the Ireland soccer team who are from England.

iasc

Amz wrote:

Unlike the three chaps who play for the Ireland soccer team who are from England.

whats your point?

eirebhoy

iasc, I'd actually like to know the point you're trying to make.

iasc

eirebhoy wrote:

iasc, I'd actually like to know the point you're trying to make.

That Cragg is not Irish, and a medal won by him for us, would seem soiled to me. My mate who's big into Athletics said that Cragg had a falling out with the South African Athletic association because they wanted him to run too many races, and because of this he moaned and runs for us instead.

eirebhoy

Cragg is half Irish and I really couldn't care what reason he chose to represent us. We have a population of 4m, its not as if we're spoilt for choice.

Vaho Iagorashvili represented USSR in '88, Georgia in '96 and this year represented the USA. Jasna Reid represented Yugoslavia in 92 and she was on the US team this year. Gao Jun won silver in table tennis for China in 92 and is now representing The US. There's also about 10 more "foreigners" representing the US.
http://www.usoc.org/11583_20619.htm

The difference is, most of them have American citizenship because they lived there for a number of years but Cragg has 2 Irish grandparents so, IMO, has more right to represent Ireland than they have the USA.

I heard a few others been mentioned including Obikwelu who won silver in the 100m for Portugal.

iasc

eirebhoy wrote:

Cragg is half Irish and I really couldn't care what reason he chose to represent us. We have a population of 4m, its not as if we're spoilt for choice.

Vaho Iagorashvili represented USSR in '88, Georgia in '96 and this year represented the USA. Jasna Reid represented Yugoslavia in 92 and she was on the US team this year. Gao Jun won silver in table tennis for China in 92 and is now representing The US. There's also about 10 more "foreigners" representing the US.
http://www.usoc.org/11583_20619.htm

The difference is, most of them have American citizenship because they lived there for a number of years but Cragg has 2 Irish grandparents so, IMO, has more right to represent Ireland than they have the USA.

I heard a few others been mentioned including Obikwelu who won silver in the 100m for Portugal.

Why are you telling me about these other athletes, i dont care about them?
I'm just saying i dont like cragg running for us because he had a falling out with south africa..dont forget he used to represent south africa. Born and raised in south africa, doesnt make him Irish in my eyes. So your saying that because we're crap in the olympics its alright if we have loads of other athletes representing us through the granny rule?

eirebhoy

The reason I brought up those people in my previous post is to show that (probably) the majority of countries have someone representing them that wasn't born in that country. If we were the only country to be "adopting" athletes from across shore I could probably understand where your coming from but we certainly are not.

iasc wrote:

So your saying that because we're crap in the olympics its alright if we have loads of other athletes representing us through the granny rule?

Basically, yes. Why do you support the Irish at the Olympics? What makes it different if that athlete wasn't born on this island? If he gets a medal for us in the future, its a medal for Ireland and thats all I care about.

BTW, you mentioned that the Ireland football team only have 3 English born players. Cragg is also part of a team called something along the lines of Ireland.

iasc

eirebhoy wrote:

The reason I brought up those people in my previous post is to show that (probably) the majority of countries have someone representing them that wasn't born in that country. If we were the only country to be "adopting" athletes from across shore I could probably understand where your coming from but we certainly are not.

Basically, yes. Why do you support the Irish at the Olympics? What makes it different if that athlete wasn't born on this island? If he gets a medal for us in the future, its a medal for Ireland and thats all I care about.

BTW, you mentioned that the Ireland football team only have 3 English born players. Cragg is also part of a team called something along the lines of Ireland.

I support the Irish at the olympics cos they represent our country, but if anyone can represent a country, then it takes a way from the achivement of the country. It's more like club football or something. I didnt say the Irish football team had only 3 english born players, i said with a full strength ireland team, at most 3 english born players would get there game. I was saying this because someone else said the majority of the team were English.
I also would rather if the irish football squad was fully Irish

ecksor

iasc wrote:

Born and raised in south africa, doesnt make him Irish in my eyes.

Thankfully your eyes don't count, although you're entitled to your opinion of course. Your attitude seems at odds with the spirit of the constitution of Ireland.

ecksor

I support the Irish at the olympics cos they represent our country, but if anyone can represent a country, then it takes a way from the achivement of the country.

This basically looks like abandoning the people who emigrate by telling them that their children are not entitled to represent their country of origin. Someone who's immediate parents are from Ireland doesn't really count as a case of "anyone can represent a country" in the way that naturalisation in other countries does (i.e, some of the examples posted).

iasc

ecksor wrote:

This basically looks like abandoning the people who emigrate by telling them that their children are not entitled to represent their country of origin. Someone who's immediate parents are from Ireland doesn't really count as a case of "anyone can represent a country" in the way that naturalisation in other countries does (i.e, some of the examples posted).

You could also say that the people who are emigrating are abadoning their people. He also ran for South Africa before running for Ireland.

ecksor

iasc wrote:

You could also say that the people who are emigrating are abadoning their people.

You could say that, but it isn't the attitude that Irish society and governments have taken and the constitution does not regard them in that manner.

iasc

ecksor wrote:

You could say that, but it isn't the attitude that Irish society and governments have taken and the constitution does not regard them in that manner.

You can't speak for our society, alas I guess we're just going to have agree to disagree on it.

ecksor

I'm not attempting to speak for our society, I'm stating what I believe to be a fact. I'll attempt to make a case for it if you really want, but as a track fan I'm sure you're off watching the women's 10,000m final and that's what I'm going to do now!