Men's 5000m - Irish reps.

eirebhoy

The semi's were on last night with an Irishman in both heats. Alistair Cragg came 7th in his heat and qualifies for the final with a time of 13.23. Mark Carroll came 15th (4rd last) in his heat with a time of 13.47. Sief got the best time over the two heats with 13.19 and Bekele (world record holder, 12.37) won the first heat with 13.21.

The winner of the 2000 Sydney Olympics won with a time of 13.35. Cragg has a PB of 13.12 which he got just last month.

BTW, Cragg is the only European and one of 3 non-African's out of 15 in the final. So he's effectively representing Europe.

Heat 1
Heat 2

Amz

I saw Allistair Cragg interviewed last night on RTÉ and I was very impressed with him. He seemed very level headed and undaunted by the whole thing. He said the main reason he'd gone to the front of his heat was because he was an unknown entity to the other competitors an as such they would have tried to box him in or push him out of contention. He's definitely one to look out for.

Mark Carroll was also interviewed, he seems to be very honest with himself, he's come to the realisation that he is perhaps, at 32, a little too old to be competing at such track meets and is now planning on furthering his marathon career. He ran around 2:10:00 (I think) in the New York marathon earlier this year.
He also expressed his annoyance at the OCI's early qualifying time, believing that this forced athletes to peak too early in order to achieve the standard so early in the season thus reducing their chances at the games.

K!LL!@N

Seems like a very level-headed guy.
Not afraid of the africans and not afraid to get out there and push himself, as he did.
It'd be great to see him go out and give a personal best, even if that doesn't mean a medal.
Looks like one to watch for the future.

Mark Carroll gave a good honest interview after his heat.
I think he's right about the qualifying limits set by the OCI.
The IOC sets the deadline as 2 weeks before the event.
I don't know about other countrys but the US olympic trials were only held about a month before the olympics, which seems to make more sense.
I'm not an athlete myself, far from it, but it seems to me that athletes should be allowed to set their qualifying time according to IOC regulations.
And if OCI wants to hold final trials hold them closer to the IOC deadline.
Then maybe the athletes can start to peak for the trials and fully peak come the olympics.

Also, someone should have handed Mark a towel.
He had something hanging from his chin throughout the whole interview. :eek:

Killian

ecksor

Where you say IOC there I think you mean IAAF. The OCI's treatment of track and field over the last few olympics should be a national scandal in my opinion.

And if OCI wants to hold final trials hold them closer to the IOC deadline.

For Sydney and Athens the national championships (which should be the trials for the team) were held after the team had been picked. Yes, the situation is actually that ridiculous. Also, the trials serve a different function from the qualification standards. Standards are there to be met before you are allowed to be considered for selection for the Olympic games. The trials are then a head to head situation where all athletes who are eligible for selection battle it out to decide who gets sent. USA champions often provisionally make their national team without having the standard and then spend the time remaining between the trials and the end of the qualification period trying to achieve the required standard so that they can be formally selected.

Pherekydes

eirebhoy wrote:

BTW, Cragg is the only European and one of 3 non-African's out of 15 in the final. So he's effectively representing Europe.

Cragg is African!

Pherekydes

K!LL!@N wrote:

Not afraid of the africans and not afraid to get out there and push himself, as he did.

Why should he be? He's African himself.

Amz

I'm not sure why that's an issue.
Most people don't seem to be bothered by the fact that most of Ireland's soccer players aren't "really Irish". Likewise with some of our rugby players.

Pherekydes

It's not an issue.
Just pointing out that he's an African, not a European.

I welcome them all. We have enough Nigerians living here now. Where are the sprinters? Ditto Eastern Europeans and field events.

Amz

Hrm.

K!LL!@N

Slow coach wrote:

Why should he be? He's African himself.

Oh yeah, you're right....lol.

You know what i mean though.

Killian

The Rooster

Alastair's mother's parents were both Irish, so he has Irish blood in him and he's well entitled to call himself Irish or European. Certainly more entitled than, for example, multiple European Champion Wilson Kipketer.

I didnt realise no other Europeans qualified. Is Cragg the only white? Good achievement and hopefully we've a European champion in the making.

I'd like to echo the above and say how well both Cragg and Carroll came across. Two great guys, and amazed how level headed they could be immediately after a race, especially with Tony O'Donoghue asking them about 20 questions each. That was in sharp contrast to the English 200m runners (Malcolm and particularly Campbell) who were interviewed on the same day and who just cried and complained and made excuses, and still managed to come across as totally big headed.

eirebhoy

Slow coach wrote:

Cragg is African!

Francis Obikwelu is a Nigerian representing Portugal. He's eligible because he has lived in Portugal for a number of years. There's plenty of people like Obikwelu, at least Cragg is half Irish.

eirebhoy

I'm not well up on Athletics but maybe someone could explain this. In the mens 5000m at the Sydney Olympics the fastest time in the round 1 heats was 13.22 but the winner in the final got a time of 13.35. Is it all to do with tactics and people running too fast too early, etc? If so, why don't people run their own race and set a target time?
Cheers.

ecksor

It wasn't about running too fast too early (the medallists will be guys capable of running 13:00 or probably better), but more to do with early laps being very slow. Championship finals over the longer distances are usually tactical affairs with a few slow laps early on. In the case of a heat you'll often get someone leading out the pace, especially in a latter heat as some athletes who don't fancy their chances of an automatic qualification time will make the pace to ensure that they beat the fastest loser times from the previous heats.

If so, why don't people run their own race and set a target time?

Anyone doing that would set themselves up for a fall (remember how Paula Radcliffe used to run Finals? Well, it's how she still runs finals I guess except recently she's been outclassing athletes on the track). They'd be target rabbits for everyone else to hang onto for most of the race. It's generally accepted that to lead the race is to do more work. This is probably mostly a psychological thing, although there were some studies a few years ago too showing that the reduced wind resistance of trailing an athlete did have a significant effect on a person's lap times for effort expended.

iasc

Amz wrote:

I'm not sure why that's an issue.
Most people don't seem to be bothered by the fact that most of Ireland's soccer players aren't "really Irish". Likewise with some of our rugby players.

Most irish soccer players are irish, the most non-irish players youll ever really get in the first team with a full squad available is 3. He's not Irish, the only time he was in Ireland before he joined our athletics squad was when he was runing for South Africa in Belfast.

eirebhoy

iasc wrote:

Most irish soccer players are irish, the most non-irish players youll ever really get in the first team with a full squad available is 3. He's not Irish, the only time he was in Ireland before he joined our athletics squad was when he was runing for South Africa in Belfast.

A few English born players play for the Ireland football team because they can't get their game for Ireland but why would Cragg want to represent Ireland if he regards himself as South African? Surely he would have made the South African team as there's no S.African in tomorrows final.

iasc

eirebhoy wrote:

A few English born players play for the Ireland football team because they can't get their game for Ireland but why would Cragg want to represent Ireland if he regards himself as South African? Surely he would have made the South African team as there's no S.African in tomorrows final.

so he can take part in european championships...he used to represent south africa...as far as i know, he only qualifies for ireland cos of the oul granny rule

Amz

Unlike the three chaps who play for the Ireland soccer team who are from England.

iasc

Amz wrote:

Unlike the three chaps who play for the Ireland soccer team who are from England.

whats your point?

eirebhoy

iasc, I'd actually like to know the point you're trying to make.

iasc

eirebhoy wrote:

iasc, I'd actually like to know the point you're trying to make.

That Cragg is not Irish, and a medal won by him for us, would seem soiled to me. My mate who's big into Athletics said that Cragg had a falling out with the South African Athletic association because they wanted him to run too many races, and because of this he moaned and runs for us instead.

eirebhoy

Cragg is half Irish and I really couldn't care what reason he chose to represent us. We have a population of 4m, its not as if we're spoilt for choice.

Vaho Iagorashvili represented USSR in '88, Georgia in '96 and this year represented the USA. Jasna Reid represented Yugoslavia in 92 and she was on the US team this year. Gao Jun won silver in table tennis for China in 92 and is now representing The US. There's also about 10 more "foreigners" representing the US.
http://www.usoc.org/11583_20619.htm

The difference is, most of them have American citizenship because they lived there for a number of years but Cragg has 2 Irish grandparents so, IMO, has more right to represent Ireland than they have the USA.

I heard a few others been mentioned including Obikwelu who won silver in the 100m for Portugal.

iasc

eirebhoy wrote:

Cragg is half Irish and I really couldn't care what reason he chose to represent us. We have a population of 4m, its not as if we're spoilt for choice.

Vaho Iagorashvili represented USSR in '88, Georgia in '96 and this year represented the USA. Jasna Reid represented Yugoslavia in 92 and she was on the US team this year. Gao Jun won silver in table tennis for China in 92 and is now representing The US. There's also about 10 more "foreigners" representing the US.
http://www.usoc.org/11583_20619.htm

The difference is, most of them have American citizenship because they lived there for a number of years but Cragg has 2 Irish grandparents so, IMO, has more right to represent Ireland than they have the USA.

I heard a few others been mentioned including Obikwelu who won silver in the 100m for Portugal.

Why are you telling me about these other athletes, i dont care about them?
I'm just saying i dont like cragg running for us because he had a falling out with south africa..dont forget he used to represent south africa. Born and raised in south africa, doesnt make him Irish in my eyes. So your saying that because we're crap in the olympics its alright if we have loads of other athletes representing us through the granny rule?

eirebhoy

The reason I brought up those people in my previous post is to show that (probably) the majority of countries have someone representing them that wasn't born in that country. If we were the only country to be "adopting" athletes from across shore I could probably understand where your coming from but we certainly are not.

iasc wrote:

So your saying that because we're crap in the olympics its alright if we have loads of other athletes representing us through the granny rule?

Basically, yes. Why do you support the Irish at the Olympics? What makes it different if that athlete wasn't born on this island? If he gets a medal for us in the future, its a medal for Ireland and thats all I care about.

BTW, you mentioned that the Ireland football team only have 3 English born players. Cragg is also part of a team called something along the lines of Ireland.

iasc

eirebhoy wrote:

The reason I brought up those people in my previous post is to show that (probably) the majority of countries have someone representing them that wasn't born in that country. If we were the only country to be "adopting" athletes from across shore I could probably understand where your coming from but we certainly are not.

Basically, yes. Why do you support the Irish at the Olympics? What makes it different if that athlete wasn't born on this island? If he gets a medal for us in the future, its a medal for Ireland and thats all I care about.

BTW, you mentioned that the Ireland football team only have 3 English born players. Cragg is also part of a team called something along the lines of Ireland.

I support the Irish at the olympics cos they represent our country, but if anyone can represent a country, then it takes a way from the achivement of the country. It's more like club football or something. I didnt say the Irish football team had only 3 english born players, i said with a full strength ireland team, at most 3 english born players would get there game. I was saying this because someone else said the majority of the team were English.
I also would rather if the irish football squad was fully Irish

ecksor

iasc wrote:

Born and raised in south africa, doesnt make him Irish in my eyes.

Thankfully your eyes don't count, although you're entitled to your opinion of course. Your attitude seems at odds with the spirit of the constitution of Ireland.

ecksor

I support the Irish at the olympics cos they represent our country, but if anyone can represent a country, then it takes a way from the achivement of the country.

This basically looks like abandoning the people who emigrate by telling them that their children are not entitled to represent their country of origin. Someone who's immediate parents are from Ireland doesn't really count as a case of "anyone can represent a country" in the way that naturalisation in other countries does (i.e, some of the examples posted).

iasc

ecksor wrote:

This basically looks like abandoning the people who emigrate by telling them that their children are not entitled to represent their country of origin. Someone who's immediate parents are from Ireland doesn't really count as a case of "anyone can represent a country" in the way that naturalisation in other countries does (i.e, some of the examples posted).

You could also say that the people who are emigrating are abadoning their people. He also ran for South Africa before running for Ireland.

ecksor

iasc wrote:

You could also say that the people who are emigrating are abadoning their people.

You could say that, but it isn't the attitude that Irish society and governments have taken and the constitution does not regard them in that manner.

iasc

ecksor wrote:

You could say that, but it isn't the attitude that Irish society and governments have taken and the constitution does not regard them in that manner.

You can't speak for our society, alas I guess we're just going to have agree to disagree on it.

ecksor

I'm not attempting to speak for our society, I'm stating what I believe to be a fact. I'll attempt to make a case for it if you really want, but as a track fan I'm sure you're off watching the women's 10,000m final and that's what I'm going to do now!

josh40

Nothing wrong with having an Irish granny! :cool:

daveirl

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Amz

It probably isn't a comfortable style but it perhaps conserves more energy that way.

Big Ears

iasc wrote:

I also would rather if the irish football squad was fully Irish

so you would rather if the whole squad was born here , raised here and no grand-parents or parent be from another country , or have lived long enough in another country to be egible , because it seems anyone whos not isnt fully Irish and should never be allowed to compete for this country in any sport .

What about a person who grew up with Northern Ireland , and the paerent s were Nothern Irish , yet they had one Irish grandparent nad would rather play for the Republic side in soccer , would you welcome them ?

I guess you don't like Gary Breen playing for Ireland either .

iasc

Big Ears wrote:

so you would rather if the whole squad was born here , raised here and no grand-parents or parent be from another country , or have lived long enough in another country to be egible , because it seems anyone whos not isnt fully Irish and should never be allowed to compete for this country in any sport .

i would rather that the person was born and raised here, regardless of parents, if 2 south africans had a child here, and he was raised here, black or white, i would consider him more Irish that somone who was born and raised in South Africa who has Irish Grandparents

Big Ears wrote:

What about a person who grew up with Northern Ireland , and the paerent s were Nothern Irish , yet they had one Irish grandparent nad would rather play for the Republic side in soccer , would you welcome them ?

Well if your born on the Island of Ireland you're Irish, and after the way Neil Lennon was treated I think all Northern Irish catholics will choose the reupublic in future

Big Ears wrote:

I guess you don't like Gary Breen playing for Ireland either .

[/QUOTE]
And as for Gary Breen, regardless of the fact that he's English, he's the biggest pile of crap ever.....but is all this Soccer stuff relevant here

daveirl

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ecksor

Yeah, lots of Chinese distance runners haven't had a particularly attractive running style, but they just float over the ground.

daveirl

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ecksor

Sprinters who train consistently seem to be at their best in their late 20s nowadays. But the accept wisdom used to be that you were getting past it once you hit your mid-20s. That had much to do with amateurism and people not keeping it up long in favour of doing other things that they could make a living at though. Perhaps it just seems to go in trends though, one interesting aspect of this olympics has been the younger athletes winning the sprint events. Men's 400m winner is 20 years of age, Men's 100m is 22, 110mh winner is 20, Women's 200m winner is 22. Usain Bolt ran 19.93 for 200m this year and only just turned 18 before the olympics started.

Big Ears

daveirl wrote:

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well those reasons are valid , unlike others .
and by the way all Norther Irish Catholics don't have a choice to pay for the Republic .

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is not one country no matter how much we want it to be .

Do you think its ok for sports people from Korea PDR(North) to play for Korea Republic(South) ?

Amz

The North and South Korea issue you mention Big Ears was a decision which was obviously come to by the relevant sporting authorities and governments within Korea. I would imagine it had both political motives and it improves the chances of success for both states if they can lay claim to all the athletes.

iasc

Big Ears wrote:

well those reasons are valid , unlike others .
and by the way all Norther Irish Catholics don't have a choice to pay for the Republic .

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is not one country no matter how much we want it to be .

Do you think its ok for sports people from Korea PDR(North) to play for Korea Republic(South) ?

If you're born in Northern Ireland, you are entitles to an Irish passport, so why couldnt they have the choice to play for Ireland. They may be different countires, but in Rugby, Athletics and GAA, the island of Ireland is reperesented, so The Korean situation would be different

Pherekydes

iasc wrote:

i would rather that the person was born and raised here,

It seems to me that a person has no say in where they are born, but do have a say in where they live, eventually. So someone who elects to represent a certain country has a greater devotion to that country compared to someone who was merely born there.

Just out of curiosity, how did you vote in the Citizenship referendum?

pickarooney

Slow coach wrote:

It seems to me that a person has no say in where they are born, but do have a say in where they live, eventually. So someone who elects to represent a certain country has a greater devotion to that country compared to someone who was merely born there.

Makes sense. So Cragg, who was neither born nor raised in Ireland, and doesn't live there, is less Irish than Merlene Ottey is Slovakian.

Or is he?

How long before they whole place of birth/passport/citizenship issue is overlooked completely, and the richer countries can simply buy athletes from the poorer ones (Qatar are making nice headway in this respect)?

Pherekydes

pickarooney wrote:

How long before they whole place of birth/passport/citizenship issue is overlooked completely, and the richer countries can simply buy athletes from the poorer ones (Qatar are making nice headway in this respect)?

Or just let the best athletes compete, regardless of where they came into the world.

Big Ears

iasc wrote:

If you're born in Northern Ireland, you are entitles to an Irish passport, so why couldnt they have the choice to play for Ireland. They may be different countires, but in Rugby, Athletics and GAA, the island of Ireland is reperesented, so The Korean situation would be different

you can be Northern Irish without being born there , say you're parents were in another country at the time .

I didnt know Northern Irish athlethes could apply for a Republic of Ireland passport , but hey , im young.......and ingnorant .

Johnny_the_fox

as far as i know - in Athletics, the Irish Commitee and the British Commitee (which covers the NI) have an agreement regards which Northern Irish athlete represents... no such rule as a granny rule etc.

If the athlete from the north want to represent Ireland he can.. or he can represent GB & NI.

James McIlroy - represented Ireland years ago.. but have disagreements with Irish athletics and left to join GB & NI.

iasc

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

as far as i know - in Athletics, the Irish Commitee and the British Commitee (which covers the NI) have an agreement regards which Northern Irish athlete represents... no such rule as a granny rule etc.

If the athlete from the north want to represent Ireland he can.. or he can represent GB & NI.

James McIlroy - represented Ireland years ago.. but have disagreements with Irish athletics and left to join GB & NI.

The teams at the Olympics were Great Britain And the team of Ireland
Great Britain consisted of England, Scotland and Wales and The Ireland team consisted athletes representing the Isalnd of Ireland

ecksor

What are you basing that on exactly? I've been to championships where the GB team is announced as "Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

iasc

ecksor wrote:

What are you basing that on exactly? I've been to championships where the GB team is announced as "Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Its just for the Olympics