Some thoughts on Babylon 5

azezil

***Contains spoilers if you havn't seen the series***


I started watching B5 some time ago, I came in around season 3 I think, thus found it a tad confusing at times, so I've started again from the beginning I'm up to season 2 episode 15.

I can't help but notice the similarities in story line between B5 and The Lord of The Rings!
'An ancient darkness returns', 'it gathers all the dark forces of the world (universe) to it', even the alliance with the Centari, Lando = Sauron, the ancient races leaving, Vorlons = Elfs, 'humans are the future' and so on.

Enjoying it so far, despite the crappy graphics and occasional cringe worthy acting, the story is involving and unlike Star Treks apparent random collection of stories with a running plot rarely referred to, each episode is a continuation of the story, well worth a watch if you haven’t yet seen it.

ixoy

Well l'm re-watching too and just finished Season 1 (see my sig!) and there's a reason for some of the similarities. Let's get scholarly!

Tolkein was principally a scholar. Lord of the Rings was one of his ways to build up a world by drawing on ancient folklore and mythologies of Earth. So you'll see Anglo-Saxon stuff, Norse mythology (if you read the 'Silmarillion') etc. One of the global traits of these myths is a fight between light and dark.

Now, if you listen to JMS' commentary on the S1 finale, 'Chrysalis', he'll say that the reason the stations were named Babylon is to evoke Babylonian myth which also speaks of the two sides of light and dark, which we see in LotR.

See they're both drawing on the same well spring of ancient stories to some degree and using archetypes. I mean humans are the future is a common staple of most sci-fi (Trek included). Ancient races leaving is another common element in the genre (which, let's recall, Tolkein didn't invent - merely contemporised and popularized).

Comparing Londo Mollari to Sauron however is just wrong Londo is a far more complex character and he's more about the fallibility of someone making wrong choices. He shows far more "humanity" (for want of a better word) than Sauron, who was only ever a cipher figure for darkness (we never even met him).

Fenster

Watch the end of season 3 and the start of 4. Sheridan goes to Za'ha'dum-Khazad'dum anyone? There he jumps into the abyss while slaying his enemy. Lorien brings him back to life...for a time.

This was all done to death back in 2000. Go read some of the archives on B5 boards and mailing lists.

azezil

ixoy wrote:

Comparing Londo Mollari to Sauron however is just wrong Londo is a far more complex character and he's more about the fallibility of someone making wrong choices. He shows far more "humanity" (for want of a better word) than Sauron, who was only ever a cipher figure for darkness (we never even met him).

Watch season 2 a see how much humanity he has :P

Cheers for the reply though, very insightful

Well Fenster I don't read those forums and it hasn't been discussed here, so shhhh ^_^

ixoy

azezil wrote:

Watch season 2 a see how much humanity he has :P

I've seen all five seasons so I know precisely how much humanity he has
He just makes one or two bad choices.... very bad ones.... But I love where it all goes for him as a character. He's a tragic character, if ever there was one.

Stark

ixoy wrote:

I've seen all five seasons so I know precisely how much humanity he has
He just makes one or two bad choices.... very bad ones.... But I love where it all goes for him as a character. He's a tragic character, if ever there was one.

Yes Londo is such a fantastic and tragic character. Garibaldi was right on the money when he descibed him as desperately clinging to a galloping horse.

Wait till you see him in war without end and the season finale.

What I don't like about b5 is the crappy b-stories - walkabout anyone? and over-reliance on tried and tested themes as azezil said.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i was sad for londo when the series ended, he didn't deserve that. but it was a very nice ending for the story, if not the character.

b5 is the best sci-fi show on tv, past and present. I love the fact that it's all one giant story arc, there are a few villian of the week type episodes but even alot of them contain little clues about the main story, or when you rewatch them with knowledge of what is coming and you go "woh... tat's ****ing COOL".

babylon 4 rocked

Sooner or Later

At its best B5 was probably the best sci-fi series ever. The first to have a story arc, cool spaceships (especially the organic Vorlon ones), great characters (the whole Londo v G'kar thing, Kosh and his utterances) and generous dollops of humour (Ivanova's "alien sex" scene) as well as lots of action. You could even forgive JMS his often clunky dialogue.

Bad episodes were few and far between (like the King Arthur one).

Steven999

Yeah the over -arching storyline was the best thing ever . screw being taught religion in secondary school . they should watch b5 instead . watch 1 episode a week and the 5 years are covered .

Inspector Gadget

It's by far and away (to my mind) the best science fiction I've ever had the privilege to watch. Personally, I think it rates quite highly as some of the best TV I've ever watched - okay, the sets were gammy, the special effects were pretty damn bad, the CGI was erm, "glossy" (?), however, the acting was pretty good, and (more importantly) the characters and story arc were consistent, detailed and well thought-out - it's a very impressive body of work. I can't think of any other show I've ever watched where apparently insignificant events in an episode half a series back all of a sudden make a whole lot of sense and help knit the story together even tighter.

Using B5 to teach religion? Interesting... but do you think it's fully representative?
Gadget

Manach

Personally I enjoyed it immensely. There were clunky episodes, but overall it had the effect of watching a myth unfolding.
Re. religion, was there not one episode early on, where each Alien race demo-ed their one religious belief; and at the end the Humans had a line up of people representing each religion on Earth. Excellent, given the fact the JMS is an athiest.

ixoy

Manach wrote:

Re. religion, was there not one episode early on, where each Alien race demo-ed their one religious belief; and at the end the Humans had a line up of people representing each religion on Earth. Excellent, given the fact the JMS is an athiest.

Episode 1x11 - Believers. It was a very interesting morality play where two aliens refused to let Franklin operate on their sick son saying that if he did, the soul of their child would die. However, if Franklin didn't operate the child would die of a disease (the operation was highly routine). The episode was a conflict about his humanitarian beliefs versus respecting religious beliefs. Each race had their own thoughts on the matter. In fact my current sig comes from this episode - it's Kosh's usual helpful advice to the aliens

What I liked most about the episode was how it ended...

Franklin performed the operation, like you'd expect. What you don't expect is the parents to subsequently kill their child because they believed his soul had departed and for them to get away with it because it's their religious belief. Trok would never do that! One of the first real signs that B5 was very different

.

But yeah given the fact JMS was an atheist, he incorporated religious and spiritual beliefs far better than other big-name sci-fi shows... Perhaps by not having any of his own religion to promote, he was free to look at lots of alternative belief systems.

The Corinthian

I first came across B5 advertised on the back of one of the final issues of a comic called ‘Sandman’. I’ll admit that I was about to switch off on it, when “Signs and Portents” finally hooked me.

azezil wrote:

Watch season 2 a see how much humanity he has :P

Actually you do. He shows repeated regret throughout season two, in particular in the episodes “The Geometry of Shadows”, “The Coming of Shadows”, “Knives” and especially the scene depicting the bombing of Narn in “The Long, Twilight Struggle”. He is a classic tragic anti-hero, doing evil (although his motives are altruistic) and ironically finding himself a puppet more and more as he becomes more ‘powerful’.

By contrast Sauron is a very limited character, never actually encountered in the books, and he is little more than the anthropomorphic personification of the adversary and of evil.

As an aside, another similarity between B5 and LotR would be in how the two main arcs are concluded; the Shadow war is won, then the heroes return home to Earth to clean up the mess that has occurred in their absence. Much like the fall of Sauron followed by the Hobbits’ return to clean up the mess caused by Saruman in their absence (in the books, regrettably not in the movies).

Stark wrote:

What I don't like about b5 is the crappy b-stories - walkabout anyone? and over-reliance on tried and tested themes as azezil said.

One would have to admit that with a few choice exceptions, J Michael Straczynski is a limited writer and often the dialogue between characters in B5 was cringingly bad. His breakthrough though was developing a grand chiaroscuro story arc, an epic tale of good verses evil and placing a few choice characters in it (most notably Londo and G’Kar).

Crusade, by contrast, was designed to be more in the traditional mould of stand alone episodes with a vague story arc. Needless to say, a season of episodes on a par with “TKO” and “Grey 17 Is Missing” was all that was needed to kill it.

Much of the popularity in B5 was aided by its contrast to what was going on in the Star Trek franchise at the time. Deep Space Nine was continuing the Gene Roddenberry ‘vision’ where the future saw humanity achieve a utopian Society. B5, on the other hand, was just plain nasty; poverty, strife, conspiracy and war. As a result so many viewers migrated to B5 that it was reported that Paramount threatened to refuse to supply networks that carried B5. Ultimately, DS9 copied B5 and turned dark and nasty too with the Dominion war.

Inspector Gadget wrote:

(more importantly) the characters and story arc were consistent, detailed and well thought-out - it's a very impressive body of work.

That’s arguable, on two points. Firstly it is widely believed (although JMS denies this) that there were a number of fundamental changes made to the story ark as a result of Bruce Boxleitner replacing Michael O'Hare after season one.

Secondly, because it was originally thought that the series would not be renewed after season four, the principle story arks were concluded (“Sleeping in Light” was originally shot as the finale to season four). When B5 was renewed, this forced JMS to open up new story arks, some prematurely - contrast “War without End” and “The Fall of Centauri Prime”, for example - was the city around the imperial palace really going to be left to burn for twenty years?

Nonetheless, B5 remains one of the best and influential Sci-Fi stories of the last thirty years.

Steven999

Inspector Gadget wrote:

Using B5 to teach religion? Interesting... but do you think it's fully representative?
Gadget

for me it is . i had this whole gnostic thing going on ,especially when it first aired and b5's story of an eternal battle between light and dark made me feel all warm inside .

i could start up a whole new thread about the similarities between the gnostic religions and b5 but im too busy .

Kevok

The Corinthian wrote:

Secondly, because it was originally thought that the series would not be renewed after season four, the principle story arks were concluded (“Sleeping in Light” was originally shot as the finale to season four). When B5 was renewed, this forced JMS to open up new story arks, some prematurely - contrast “War without End” and “The Fall of Centauri Prime”, for example - was the city around the imperial palace really going to be left to burn for twenty years?

Nonetheless, B5 remains one of the best and influential Sci-Fi stories of the last thirty years.

Gotta love B5. One thing I have learned is that when it comes to B5, JMS usually has a reason for everything he puts in an episode. (Usually!)

Regarding the burning of centauri prime. I suggest you read the Centauri trilogy "Legion of Fire" written by Peter David. Which will explain why centauri prime was burning again 20 years after "Movements of Fire and Shadow".

The Corinthian

Kevok wrote:

Regarding the burning of centauri prime. I suggest you read the Centauri trilogy "Legion of Fire" written by Peter David. Which will explain why centauri prime was burning again 20 years after "Movements of Fire and Shadow".

Indeed. But if the book was written after season five’s “the Fall of Centari Prime”, then one might be forgiven for thinking that it was explaining an inconstancy rather than describing a planned arc event.

Kevok

I don't want to specify exactly how it works out in the book as it's a spoiler and not many have read the books. Suffice to say though, that the burning of Centauri Prime in War without end and In the beginning was as a direct result of something in season 4 and could not have been added to hide an inconsistency.

Fenster

The whole point of Lando is that everytime he gets what he wishes for, its the last thing he wants. The war with the Narn, Emperor Cartagia, etc.

azezil

Susan Ivanova, is she gay? episode in season 2 the blondey psychic one (i for get her name :P) stays over, sleeps in her bed.... "I woke up and you were gone"

And she never shows any interest in any of the guys

Kevok

Spoiler for 3rd season episode: Ceremonies of Light and Dark

Ivanova says: "I think I loved Talia." To Delenn during the 'rebirth' ceremony in medlab.

Stark

Yep she was a lesbian alright. I'm surprised it shocked me to find out, I mean she's so the stereotype. I guess I hadn't expected to see an openly gay character in a sci-fi show. Was shocked to see toilets there as well I loved that season 2 episode, they made such an unlikely but sweet couple and the ending was quite sad.

Karl Hungus

Ok, I just ordered Season 1 of Babylon 5.
If it's crap, I blame all you nerds who posted on this thread.

Be warned.

Boston

Christ I totally missed that Ivanova was gay. MAybe it was that I was so young watching it the first time I never copped it, but christ thats a surprise. Deadly. Have to go get session 2 now.

Stark

Karl Hungus wrote:

Ok, I just ordered Season 1 of Babylon 5.
If it's crap, I blame all you nerds who posted on this thread.

Be warned.

It's awful Doesn't pick up any way at all till Season 2 and even the above mentioned criticisms apply Sorry.

Karl Hungus

Ok, well I kinda expected as much and I've planned to get the next season too... But so help me, if season 2 is crap! You personally owe me, and must re-imburse me Stark!

ixoy

Boston wrote:

Christ I totally missed that Ivanova was gay.

She's not quite. From an interview with Claudia Christina URL=http://home.xnet.com/~tardis/pastvis/reviews/v96lanshark.html]here[/URL who played Ivanova:

Q: Couldn't it be seen that by making Ivanova gay that this is perpetuating the stereotype that the only strong women are lesbians?

CC: "No! It was only one night!" She has to really think about this one. CC basically says that it shouldn't matter either one way or another, it doesn't matter what you are, she doesn't care what anyone does. She also mentions that she feels that everyone, deny it if they will, have had at least once had an attraction to the same sex "Hell I used to make out with my girlfriends when I was a little kid, it didn't check first to see if it's a boy or a girl!"

And from another source URL=http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/6207/interv7.html]here[/URL:

"I think that a lot of people who wanted to read things into the Talia/Ivanova relationship were probably -" Christian checks herself, aware that she may be on dodgy ground as far as some viewers are concerned, but then, "I'll be quite honest, I was like the lesbian poster child; I got a lot of people writing to me from the armed forces and so forth, who loved the fact they thought I was going to be gay. I'm not gay in real life, and I don't think I'm gay on the show, but I definitely think she had some kind of thing with Talia. I think a lot of gay women were hoping for that, and I didn't want to disappoint them; I thought it would be fun."

I think it was meant more as an example of that she fell for Talia, who just happened to be a woman.

And Season 2 is good Karl Hungus, no matter what Stark says S1 is average for a genre show.

Kevok

"Signs and Portents" and "Chrysalis" are great episodes in S1. They got me hooked.

The bad ones are "Infection" and "TKO", the latter being probably the worst in the whole series. With the possible exception of "Grey 17 is missing" in S3. If you can get through those two without giving up then you'll have no problems.

Stark

And don't worry, Michael O'Hare (Commander Sinclair) gets replaced in Season 2

Karl Hungus

Ok, I'm a good bit into Season 2 now, and I've decided not to kill you all!

It's no Farscape so far, but it's definetly very enjoyable, and I'll definetly invest in seasons 3 and 4 at some stage.

Kevok

Have you watched "The Coming of Shadows" yet? What did you think?

Karl Hungus

I did, and it was excellent.