Wolfe tones: Traditional music or Traditional Crap?

Johnny_the_fox

As the topic says : Wolfe tones: Traditional music or Traditional Crap?

RE*AC*TOR

They've been on the go for a long time. I think pre 80's they were music, but now they are pure and utter sh*te. They seem to pander now to the kind of people who insert IRA slogans in the middle of The Fields Of Athenry.

Stabshauptmann

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

They seem to pander now to the kind of people who insert IRA slogans in the middle of The Fields Of Athenry.

Scum?

Flukey

They have of course got very strong Republican stuff, but they have also some good music. I have their greatest hits CD and there are some nice tracks, with no strong political slants on them.

RE*AC*TOR

Necromancer wrote:

Scum?

more like sheep I would say.

Villain

I went to see them about 7 years ago and thought they were excellent, but went again about 2 years ago and wasn't impressed at all.

There very strong republicans but they have some important storys to tell through their music, and no-one could deny that they are talented musicians.

mike65

Are'nt there at least two Wolfe Tones these days...? The split and all that.

Mike.

Bottle_of_Smoke

traditional crap

Stabshauptmann

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

traditional crap

wow im so in awe of your wit, intelligence and taste of music. That was a great post, informative, polite and debateable :rollseyes.

Why dont you post what about the wolf tones you dislike.

Please dont argue that you were just answering the question.
If you meet a good lookin girl at the weekend and she asks you do you have a name, answering yes probably isnt the smartest thing you can do.

jhonny, what do you even mean by traditional crap?

Suaimhneach

Probably means the same silly republican attachments made to the music.

I have their greatest hits too, and I like it. I wouldnt be mad into them though. They've been around for a long time, and that deserves respect.

Though, I dont think that a band should be disliked because of other peoples actions, ie people who insert IRA slogans in the middle of The Fields Of Athenry.

RE*AC*TOR

Jesjes wrote:

Though, I dont think that a band should be disliked because of other peoples actions, ie people who insert IRA slogans in the middle of The Fields Of Athenry.

Agreed - I dislike them becaue they're pandering to those people. I foolishly went to see them maybe 4 years ago in waterford. If an englishman walked in to the room I'd imagine he would have been linched.

They're not the band they were 30 years ago (2 bands now I think).
So to answer the question:
"Old" Wolfe Tones - Traditional Music
"New" Wolfe Tones - Spawn Of Satan (in checked shirt tucked into blue jeans with white runners - and the jeans are too short and very very tapered).

lee_baby_simms

Im not into them at all to be honest. Average singers/musicians who thrive off lowbrows who still like to feel oppressed by our neighbours.

Typical reads of nassau street pap.

I mean look at the heads on them. Its enough to make Jim McCann blush.


(Whose the guy in the middle? He looks dangerous. Is it that milkman from father ted? Pat Mustard?)

Epitaph

Free Moustache Rides!!

Anyway...

Traditional crap. Saw them in Cork a few years ago and was nearly scared. Rednecks with Celtic jersies roaring on about the Rah, made me embarrassed to be Irish.

Flukey

mike65 wrote:

Are'nt there at least two Wolfe Tones these days...? The split and all that.

Yes, you have the Real Wolf Tones and the Continuity Wolf Tones!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Necromancer wrote:

wow im so in awe of your wit, intelligence and taste of music. That was a great post, informative, polite and debateable :rollseyes.

Why dont you post what about the wolf tones you dislike.

Please dont argue that you were just answering the question.
If you meet a good lookin girl at the weekend and she asks you do you have a name, answering yes probably isnt the smartest thing you can do.
traditional crap?

hehe liked that good looking girl point... really wanna do that now, just to see the look on her face!

I was just answering the question, I dont like the fact that their music isnt good but *sh|t* rebel lyrics make them millionaires, I don't understand how people like it, closest analogy is the same way people like singing to team chants at football games.

Then again I cant understand why David Bowie is so loved.

mike65

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Then again I cant understand why David Bowie is so loved.

Same reason at this stage - nostaglia.

Mike.

mobby

Yes, you have the Real Wolf Tones and the Continuity Wolf Tones!

Now thats Good!!! Vey Good

mike65

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Agreed - I dislike them becaue they're pandering to those people. I foolishly went to see them maybe 4 years ago in waterford. If an englishman walked in to the room I'd imagine he would have been linched.

Was that the famous "near riot" show at the Bridge hotel (Breens) which was later mentioned on the Late Late Show when the Tones were on it?

Mike.

AngelofFire

Great if you sitting with a few mates having a session. I wouldnt listen to them on my walkman on the way to work or college tho.

Johnny_the_fox

Necromancer wrote:

jhonny, what do you even mean by traditional crap?

I really should have named his topic Traditional music or Traditional Crap - Give examples and Discuss tbh. It would have made the thread more interesting rather than singling out the Wolfe tones..

Anyway, Irish Traditional music especially in the world today, many think of Christy Moore, Patsy McCabe and others... but that is only because they play in a traditional way. If you go to any bar in the Teelin, Carna, or remote location in Ireland. The real Traditional Music is heard - which is a man (/woman) sitting in a corner of a bar, with his (/her) head between his (/her) legs singing a song native to their area - that song has been past down generations and generations...

Most Modern songs, have been written with an objective - "Boys of the Old Brigade" for example.. is an Irish freedom call which is aimed to get people fired up for the fight and proud to be Irish etc. This isn’t Traditional Music.

Therefore most of Wolfe tones songs are Traditional crap.. <as is Christy Moore’s songs etc>

scargill

Therefore most of Wolfe tones songs are Traditional crap.. <as is Christy Moore’s songs etc>

In fairness Christy Moore doesn't pander to that type of crap. I haven't heard Christ Moore sing too many rabal rousing songs lately. He's nearer Billy Bragg than Wolfe Tones surely ?
Ok - he's anti-establishment, anti-thatcher - i think its a bit unfair to lump him in with the Wolfe Tones. (and their republican nonsense for sixteen year old dubs with sovereign rings)

[interest] i'm from droichead nua [/interest]

paulthelegend

I think the wolftones serve a purpose though, like i come from a family where no one listens to trad music, so growning up i never heard it, then when i was about 18 r so i got a loan of a wolftone album(25th aniversary album i think) and i liked what i heard, so then got a few more, then got some luke kelly then from there on in just started listening to all sorts of trad music. So there like a stepping stone everyone thats on heroin got addicted to hash first so wolftones are like the hash of trad music

but i do have to add there album with "you'll never beat the irish" on it there was some songs so bad id class them as hate crimes to trad music

growler

Presumably Johnny the Fox you'd label the Dubliners and Luke Kelly as trad crap also as they sing songs with a republican theme like Off to Dublin in the Green or The West's Awake ?

A lot of the appeal of the Tones is to a rather moronic segment of the population ( mostly celtic fans sadly) and I agree that some of the scumbags I've seen at their gigs in crap London pubs wouldn't look out of place on a Most Wanted poster , however they have consistently supported the efforts towards peace in the north. Their song The Protestant Men celebrates the role of protestants in Ireland's various rebellions, despite the sectarian views of many of their audience.

I have a certain admiration for them in keeping some of the old songs alive in the face of the new found ,middle class political correctness that seems to find any reminders of our country's past too unpleasant to be discussed. I don't think that rebel songs should be dismissed simply because their political message is out dated , these songs / their sentiments were important to many past generations and shouldn't be deleted to fit into the image of cool ireland today.

Regardless of taste or political views , they are keeping part of our cultural heritage alive, sad though it may be, being anti-english was a important part of our traditional music for a long time.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Well Mr. Fox you could call Christy Moore etc traditional crap, personally I'd go with traditional Irish influenced music

dublinario

Growler, I agree wholeheartedly with your posting. I lived in Australia for a year, and before going over knew precisely no rebel songs. However, I frequented an Irish pub in Sydney where rebel music was played regularly with fervour, and being a Guitar player, inevitably ended up picking up many of these songs over the year.

For me, singing these songs in Irish Sydney pubs was 90% drunken fun, nothing more than an excuse to get riled up and reaffirm your nationality whilst on the other side of the world. But some of the songs were also poignant, and should not be construed as frivolous mechanisms to subscript impressionable minds to the IRA. They are ballads, mapping our history of rebellion and dissent.

I wont lie. There were times when I may have been at one of these rebel sessions with an English friend or two and shared their awkwardness at the Anti-English sentiment of much of the lyrics. But should our relatively recent history be consigned to the realm of unspeakable because of the less honourable direction the Republican movement took in the latter half of the 20th century? The Irish Civil War is already a skeleton in the closet that is not discussed, for obvious reasons. But what else will our new affluent, politically correct refined citizenry render taboo? The 1916 Rising? The War of Independence? Should all of these events and the heroism of Pearce, Collins, Connelly et al be brushed under the carpet for the crimes of the drug-dealing, murderous latter day IRA?

Rebel songs are part of our heritage. I learned dozens of them over the course of a couple of years, in synchronicty with non-rebel ballads. Whilst some rebel songs are more potent in their hatred than others, I make no distinction between songs such as 'Streets of New York' and 'Black and Tans'. True, one is a rebel song about a band of butchers assembled by the British to crush dissent to their rule of Ireland, whilst the other is a non-rebel song about immigration. And yet both are inherently, indelibly entwined in our history.

I'm not saying go out and sing rebel songs at the top of your lungs to a crowd of English people. There should be a sensitivity about where potentially inflamatory songs are sung. Nor am I saying go and buy the albums of 'The Wolftones', whom I think are absolutely sh*te. But get off your PC, sanctimonious high-horse, and leave people who prefer to proliferate songs about our very-recent past alone. Don't brand them all Celtic-jersey wearing, hate fuelled red necks. This is a generalisation.

I could just as easily generalise that all of those people who would gladly banish to oblivion all songs that refer to our past problems with Britain, are the same bland, trendy new Europeans, devoid of any discernable trait of culture, who prefer to spend their freetime posing in one of the City Centre's disgustingly sterile, zero atmosphere new-age cafe bars. Will any of you be recycling the affectations of your posts here to friends over 5-euro pints of Heinekin in Cafe En-Signe, Four Dame Lane or A.K.A this weekend? I find these kind kind of people just as embarassing as the hate-fuelled, anti-English celtic jersey wearing rednecks. I would hate to see either be regarded as representitive of Irish culture.

RE*AC*TOR

Wow so much typing.....so little information.

You said it yourself they are utter shíte. No one was being sanctimonious or attacking your right to play/listen/sing "Rebel" songs (whatever the Fúck rebel songs are). The Wolfetones used to play trad music that included some rebel songs - they were a band and had some artistic merit. Come the late 80s early 90s - go to a Wolfetone's gig - sea of green and white hoops, tapered jeans and white runners. Their subsequent albums took an artistic nosedive and more and more pandered to these eejits.
"Rebel" (god i hate that word) songs sung by Christy Moore or Luke Kelly or whomever, have a lot more meaning because you know they're not just playing-up to little knackers who have an inbred hatred to "the fúcking Brits".

John

The way I see it, the Wolfe Tones are pissing on those songs, they sing them and seem to want to appeal to the braindead idiots who think that the IRA are still the good lads. This is just the Wolfe Tones I'm talking about, the old rebel songs should be remembered just like songs and poetry from any war should be. Christy Moore and Luke Kelly and virtually everyone that sings these songs apart from the Wolfe Tones give the songs the proper respect and place, not as a soundtrack to a Celtic vs Rangers match but as a part of our history. The Wolfe Tones have lost all respect they once had.

growler

John2 , no one would argue the Tones should be up for an Oscar for best contribution to music, they are at best pub players granted , but without them where else would you hear these songs nowadays ? Certainly not in suburban Cork or Dublin , nor anywhere a tourist might venture lest the suss out that the leprechauns can bite back.


by Reactor
"have a lot more meaning because you know they're not just playing-up to little knackers who have an inbred hatred to "the fúcking Brits"

so you judge them by their audience rather than the music ? If you had ever been to see the Wolfe Tones you would know that they don't particularly encourage these loons , but in a time of such sterilised Irish "culture" ( Riverdance, Bloomsday etc.) they are an outlet for a different part of our heritage , fairl play to them , I can't see who will follow them except the odd ex-pat like Dublinario or myself.

Btw: you should do to Glasgow, I've seen bands in paramilitary style uniforms singing the "modern version" of rebel songs ( "SAM missiles in the sky " or My Old Man's a Provo " etc) and even these are often though obviously republican and nationalist , worth hearing , if only coz they are very funny ( despite the horrible circumstances that they evolved out of).

Dave

Villain

This thread has been full of great discussion so far, lets just make sure we focus on the music rather than the politics.

RE*AC*TOR

growler wrote:

by Reactor
"have a lot more meaning because you know they're not just playing-up to little knackers who have an inbred hatred to "the fúcking Brits"

so you judge them by their audience rather than the music ? If you had ever been to see the Wolfe Tones you would know that they don't particularly encourage these loons....

I have had the misfortune to attend a Wolfe Tones "concert" - 95% of the audience were "these loons". I hardly think they were playing for the 5% who weren't inserting rythmically bereft paramilitary chants. I think the nature of their music over the past 10 years speaks for itself.

Sean1982

I'm quite surprised that everybody has failed to mention the fact that the Wolfe TOnes have made a fortune out of singing these rebel songs. They themselves have experienced nothing of the troubles in the North, yet they sing about them as if they themselves, their brothers and sisters live in constant persecution. They sing these songs not for the cause, or to raise awareness of what they see as the plight of Cathoics and nationalists in the North. Rather, the Wolfe Tones motivation is money!! They make alot of money by singing those songs. And it is just a pity that so many people buy into the whole Wolfe Tones following. The truth is they are being fooled.....their just being sheep!! Baaa!


Wolfe Tones

growler

I fail to see how either the dress sense / personalities of the Wolfe Tones audiences or how much money they make from their business is relevant when discussing whether their style of music has any merit.

Every musician would like to be financially rewarded , why should they not ?

"They themselves have experienced nothing of the troubles in the North"
If people only sang about things they had directly experienced then I'm sure there would be far fewer songs in the world.


It's weird how people can't see past their politics and look at this topic objectively.

pork99

Traditional crap!

They're only a bunch of women compared to Ding Dong Denny O'Reilly and the Hairy Bowsies. There's a real poet and a true patriot for ya!

chillywilly

AngelofFire wrote:

Great if you sitting with a few mates having a session. I wouldnt listen to them on my walkman on the way to work or college tho.

your right there, i like relaxing while listening to them along with scissor sisters, green day, groove armada, rhcp, etc.

seems to me you guys think its one group of people that listen to the wolfetones.oh but i do hate when people sing sinn fein etc during fields of athenry!

j1979p

They're fvckin brilliant and I like the songs that aren't republican anyway such as Newgrange, Boston Beauty and Streets of New York.

billy the squid

If only the wolfe tones would sing more of the songs on their albums as opposed to the "Lets all dress up in green and kill some brits" song then I personally would have more respect for them.

I had the misfortune of attending a wolfe tones concert in Bunratty and asside from the fact that the place was overcrowded with less than savoury individuals, they spent most of the concert talking about how the government tried to shut them up with Section 31 and all that stuff.

Me personally I dont even think its traditional crap, its just crap.

SteveFE

Great thread. As an English blowin who knows next to squit about the Wolfe Tones I can't comment on their music, but I'd certainly be fascinated to go to a gig to see if I'd be lynched.

I've lived in Co Clare for just over a year and go to plenty of trad and not-so-trad sessions, and despite the fact that the rebel songs get trotted out a bit, and some "feckin Brits" comments along with them, I've never experienced any personal animosity. Maybe it helps that I'm not some Daily Mail reading Tory twat who thinks Ireland would do better back under the wing of the Empire, but I'm also not a dreadlocked dubbie who thinks Ireland's just great, maan, cos they're all so like free now. I'm aware of a lot of the undercurrents in nationalism that many modern Irish feel uncomfortable with (some of my friends regard the GAA as just a masonic social club with the right ins for the good jobs, and plenty of them aren't at all sure what the relevance of learning the language is, specially when their kids struggle so hard for Junior and Leaving Certs to learn a language they'll hardly ever use in real life). I've read up a lot on the Civil War (the kind of relevant social history they never teach you in England) and what it did to the country. I've also got friends from the North who've given me a perspective on what happened and why it happened that I never got from the English media, even the more sympathetic ones.

Way I see it, it doesn't really matter whether any of us as individuals think the Wolfe Tones are crap, it's how they're recognised and presented by the media etc. As I don't bother with telly or radio much, maybe somebody could enlighten me. Are they fawned upon as the acme of Irish culture by the media, are they ridiculed, or are they mostly just ignored and marginalised?

PS I like living here. Beats England, where nobody goes to the boozer any more cos they're all sitting in their cardboard semi-detached houses drinking their cross-channel beer and watching their satellite 80 channels of ****. I like shopping in Scarriff because you can park on the street and get your stuff from half-a-dozen friendly little shops instead of going to a mega Tesco and getting served by a drone with a barcode scanner. It might be old-fashioned (probably even by Dublin standards) but at least I don't have to act paranoid about whether some asswipe is going to nick the car while I'm off for five minutes.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Wolfe Tones are a fantastic addition to the Genre of Irish Folk/Rebel songs.

As to the merits of their music? I have not seen them recently but some of their albums and songs are a joy and the best in the field. They are not mainstream and they do tackle subjects which some people want censored.

Albums like Let the People Sing and The Rifles of the IRA are class.

Long live the music of the Wolfe Tones!

gijgl

Hey pals,

first I want to say hello since I just registered. I hope I don't annoy anyone by reopening this thread, but I'm very interested in its topic and so I do.
You may have noticed by now that I'm not Irish-born, but a stranger. I'm German, but I plan to imigrate to Ireland someday, because I just love it. In an odd way I feel very close and connected to the country.

I got to the music of The Wolfe Tones through IRC and I can say it's some of the best folk music I've ever heard. I really like it and I hope to see them live on a concert once the time has come (if it's possible at all; I've heard they broke up or something?).

Well, there's not much I can tell to your past problems with Great Britain, but I'm doing my best to understand those old troubles between your two nations.

Hopefully someone answer to this post. I'd greatly appreciate it.

By the way: I always welcome posts which correct my English. I do everything to improve it and appreciate every help.

Regards

biko

I like them after seeing them live. Great music and mighty craic.

joebhoy1916

There class.

gijgl

Right.

By the way: What are the most famous bands of Ireland? I think I've something about "The Dubliners" and "The Pogues"?

Suaimhneach

That's almost a new thread ya have there gijgl!

r3nu4l

Hmm, they have their place, I'm no Celtic Jersey wearing up-the-ra type but I do value the Wolfe Tones' music in a very different way to the 'up the IRA' crowd.

They can play well, their voices aren't the best and they focus on a particular type of ballad. Overall, not a great band but we shouldn't forget those songs/ballads/times so easily.

If I had a choice to listen to the Tones or the Fureys and Davey Arthur...the Fureys would win every time

A Dub in Glasgo

I would rather have the Tones. The Foggy Dew, Sean South & Long Kesh are just fantastic versions/songs that the Tones do justice to.

jonny68

The Wolfe Tones on their day were the best ever traditional band,ive seen them in their heyday and they were fantastic unfortunately the split occured a few years back and i don't think they were the same since.

They've been overtaken in recent times by the likes of Shebeen and Spirit Of Freedom on the rebel ballad scene of which im a big fan.

the_syco

Meh. Some of their older songs are good, but I prefer The Pogues. Never seen The Dubliners in concert, but tonight will be the 3rd time I've seen The Pogues.

joebhoy1916

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I would rather have the Tones. The Foggy Dew, Sean South & Long Kesh are just fantastic versions/songs that the Tones do justice to.

Get the song by Shebeen (Long Kesh/ Roll of honour/ Sean south/ God save Ireland). All in one cracking song.

Terrorist or dreamer by Gary Og another good one. Slow but it's good.

The Tones are playing in Athlone on the 1st of January if anyone is interested in going.

SOUTH PAW

I have to say I love the real Wolf Tones(Brian, Noel, Tommy) I think every Irish child should go to at least one Tones concert for a history lesson:) Does anyone know where n when their playing in Ireland again?

trad mad

hey guys
as someone already said these guys have been around for years and deserve some respect, they are all excellent musicans. I think they never really set out to approve of or to even promote the IRA but instead to tell a store of our history, a history we should all be prode of, no matter what our view point. I think i've learnt more from there songs about irish history that i ever did in school. Some of there fans may be a little pro Ra, but this shouldn't have an impact on the actuall band.

This is an interesting post, some very good point made, looking forward to reading more

Suaimhneach

Kindly word of warning: do not go off topic and onto politics.
Thanks