Jon Macken for Ireland

bbop

Republic of Ireland manager Brian Kerr has included Manchester City striker Jonathan Macken in the squad for the friendly against Bulgaria next Wednesday.

The former Preston attacker, who was signed by Manchester City for £5million in March 2002, was cleared by FIFA to play for Ireland. Macken had previously played just once for England at U20 level as a substitute, but under FIFA rules he can play for Ireland as he qualifies through his grandparents and has an Irish passport.

Kerr said: "I'm delighted to add Jonathan to the squad for Bulgaria. Once I became aware of his possible eligibility and desire to play for Ireland I have monitored his form closely.

" His appearances at Manchester City have been limited by injuries but in the latter part of last season he was impressive when I saw him on a few occasions. He has a good goal scoring record and links the play well from an attacking position."

Jonathan Macken said: "It is an amazing honour for me and my family and I look forward to justifying my selection if given a chance in the game. I would like to thank Brian and the FAI for the manner in which they have pursued my case with FIFA."

Could be a usefull addition to the squad?

eirebhoy

Macken has played for England at underage level and I thought he just wanted to play for Ireland to raise his profile. After reading a bit of what he has to say it looks like he classes himself as Irish. He also has an Irish passport but I just wonder why he played for England when he was called up.

"I have always had a desire to play for the country of my family background and nationality but until now have never been given the opportunity. The change of rule has been beneficial to me and it is fair to players like myself who were not selected for the country of their nationality at underage level."


He is definitely better than Clinton and scores a few headers. He could be the perfect partner for Robbie.

Dewey

I'm glad he has been given the go ahead to play for Us. I think Macken is a good player and its great to have another striker which is an area where we have been short of strikers in recent years. I hope it gives Morrison a kick up the arse and he will starting scoring a few goals. I think Macken/Keane parthership could work very well.

Cant wait to see how he does against Bulgaria.

Big Ears

I will be glad to see him playing for Ireland having heard those comments made by him , a bit different from Clinton Morrison's comments about playing for Ireland (his main point was wanting to become our record goalscorer)

Macken is a decent forward and offers something different to Morrison , and if he performs well I would like to see him start ahead of Morrison .

bizmark

(his main point was wanting to become our record goalscorer)

Never laughed so hard in all my life

Dub13

what age is he...?

TwoShedsJackson

He's a good player, better than the likes of Matt Bloody Holland for a start, hopefully he'll get a cap so we get to keep him

Big Ears

Dub13 wrote:

what age is he...?

24/25 I think , and im fairly sure .

now all we need is Nolan .

eirebhoy

He'll be 27 next month. He has been injured on 5 or 6 seperate occasions since his move to City in 2002 and even went a period of 21 months without a start for them because of his injuries. He's back to his best though and scored 3 in pre-season.

StickyMcGinty

TwoShedsJackson wrote:

He's a good player, better than the likes of Matt Bloody Holland for a start, hopefully he'll get a cap so we get to keep him

and his goal against cameroon meant nothing then?

how quickly they forget.

last thing we need is another plastic paddy plaing for us. i want boys crying when the anthem comes on, like the irish rugby team.

how are the wes hoolahans of this world gonna get on the squad if people like macken are there deciding will playing for ireland be good for his profile?

bizmark

VinnyL wrote:

and his goal against cameroon meant nothing then?

how are the wes hoolahans of this world gonna get on the squad if people like macken are there deciding will playing for ireland be good for his profile?

By being better than him ?

eirebhoy

Vinny, Macken is Irish.

Quote from a book called "Red mist: Roy Keane and the football civil war":

there was an odd moment at a press conferance in Tehran..Mick McCarthy was being quizzed about the forthcomming play-off secong leg. A local reporter raised a hesitant hand and asked if Mick could discuss whether or not his Englishness got in the way in an an Irish dressing room. Slience. A few of the vistiting supporters shut their eyes and slunk into their chairs, waiting for the gunfire. After an age, during which Mick fixed the questioner with a contemptuous gaze, he said :


" say if your father left iran because he couldn't get work at home and he ended up going to england where there was lots, and say if your father had a son who grew up in england, speaking english with an english accent, now, does that mean the boy isn't entitled to call himself Iranian ??

When Macken fills out a form for a credit card he puts him nationality down as Irish. God knows why he played those 27 minutes for the England U20's but he was a young lad at the time.


As for Matt Holland. As soon as he puts the green jersey on and the whistle blows to begin the match, he goes off, cups himself a cup of tea and comes on every half hour or so to kick the ball. A goal against Cameroon doesn't make him any better. He's a different player at club level though.

cournioni

Matt Holland is only ever any good when he has someone playing beside him eating the arse off him. That showed against Romania when Roy Keane was playing beside him. He played decent enough that day. I still don't think he deserves his place ahead of the likes of Keane, Duff, Miller, and Reid.

Jon Macken could be a good player for Robbie Keane to link up with. He's strong and holds the ball up well. Which is something that Morrison doesn't do well at all because like Heskey he's always on the ground once he touches the ball.

Bateman

"Its a great honour".

I'm sure it is. What a wanker.

eirebhoy

Just to add, to those thinking Macken is just playing for Ireland to boost his reputation. Kerr is very wary of calling players up who have played for another country at underage level, he would have already called Kevin Nolan up if he hadn't played for England U-21. He had a few meetings with Macken before calling him up and talked about his links to Ireland. From the quotes I've been reading Macken seems like a really decent guy and I have a big feeling this lad will give his all for Ireland.

Macken: “I’m looking forward to joining up with what is a fantastic squad and over the next two years will be doing my utmost to establish my place in the team for the World Cup qualifiers.”

Kerr: “I’m delighted to add Jonathan to the squad for Bulgaria. Once I became aware of his possible eligibility and desire to play for Ireland I have monitored his form closely. His appearances at Manchester City have been limited by injuries but in the latter part of the season he was impressive when I saw him on a few occasions. He has a good goal scoring record and links the play well from an attacking position. From our first meeting Jonathan’s Irish connections and links were very clear to me and his desire to be considered for our squad and to implement the process of clearing his eligibility has been impressive. His clearance to play for us gives us another attacking option for the games we face over the next two years.”

eirebhoy

Bateman wrote:

"Its a great honour".

I'm sure it is. What a wanker.

Please elaborate...

Bateman

Someone who represented England (or any other country) already, AT ANY LEVEL, should not be allowed pull on the green shirt. It's nothing more than opinion, but I refuse to accept that "he was a young lad", therefore may have been talked into playing for England when perhaps he didn't want to. After watching Shels representing last night, to think that this mug, with no experience of European football, and no prospect of it either, is worth dragging onto the bandwagon, is sickening. It's a major black spot on Kerr's bib IMO. I would never boo an Irish player, but this doesn't impress me, it leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. This is our national team, lads. What is the point of even having a national team if it is going to be whored thus?

eirebhoy

He said he wants to represent the country of his nationality. He was determined to play for Ireland. Why is this? He's a 27 year old, its hardly going to give him a big money deal to Real Madrid. He doesn't get paid for it and if anything he's risking injury on his very prone body. How on earth is he a wánker?

Now if he never mentioned playing for Ireland and he accepted a call up I could understand where you were coming from but he has being doing everything to play for Ireland since this new rule came in.

knobbles

VinnyL wrote:

last thing we need is another plastic paddy plaing for us. i want boys crying when the anthem comes on, like the irish rugby team.

:rolleyes:

Bateman wrote:

Someone who represented England (or any other country) already, AT ANY LEVEL, should not be allowed pull on the green shirt. It's nothing more than opinion, but I refuse to accept that "he was a young lad", therefore may have been talked into playing for England when perhaps he didn't want to. After watching Shels representing last night, to think that this mug, with no experience of European football, and no prospect of it either, is worth dragging onto the bandwagon, is sickening. It's a major black spot on Kerr's bib IMO. I would never boo an Irish player, but this doesn't impress me, it leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. This is our national team, lads. What is the point of even having a national team if it is going to be whored thus?

....sorry but this purist sh!t is bullsh!t. Give the man a chance. I've met many people of Irish descent who grew up in England that love and support the Irish team. A couple of London lads I know with Irish parents, go as far to detest the English team even though they've lived there all their lives! - Gary Breen falls under this category
Then their friend supports both teams but I don't see why having an affection for a second country(via a foreign parent or where you grew up) should make you less Irish. Irish is in their family and so why wouldn't it be in their heart? I like what he has had to say and more importantly so does Brian Kerr. btw, Macken has an Irish passport.

Big Ears

Bateman wrote:

Someone who represented England (or any other country) already, AT ANY LEVEL, should not be allowed pull on the green shirt. .

What about another countrys shirt .
do you think Ryan Giggs should be allowed play for Wales even though he played with England as a schoolboy(the lowest internationel age level) ?

Btw on Macken playing for England : do you think playing for England U20 would give him a better chance of playing in a Premiership team ? , of course it would , and at the time he had never been given a chance to play for Ireland , maybe he thought he'd never get his chance , so why not play for England ? .

If he had played 27 minutes for Scotland U 20's once im not sure people would be having this argument .

knobbles

...agreed, particularly the last point.

DapperGent

Big Ears wrote:

What about another countrys shirt .
do you think Ryan Giggs should be allowed play for Wales even though he played with England as a schoolboy(the lowest internationel age level) ?

Schoolboy caps have never been considered to tie you to a particular nation, even before FIFA relaxed the rules regarding previous underage games. This is for the simple reason that schoolboy caps are awarded on the basis of geography rather than nationality. i.e If you are at school in a given country you're eligible to play for that particular countrys schoolboy team, nationality doesn't come into it.

On topic: As for my own feelings about Macken being called up, I'm a bit unsure as I don't really know enough about him. I don't think you have to have grown up in Ireland to be Irish (I grew up in Africa) and I've always thought it quite fitting and nice to have people from the Irish diaspora representing Ireland in football or anything else given our longstanding background of emigration. But what I really don't like is a situation where someone is representing Ireland either because they view as a silver medal and they might as well for the laugh (Morrison) or because they feel their own country wouldn't have as good a chance of qualifying for a World Cup (McGeady).

I don't dislike Clinton Morrison, I think he's great and he tries his best and will eventually become a good striker but the fact is that he would prefer to play for another national team (it doesn't matter which national team - at least not to me) and is only playing for us becuase he faced facts and realised he'd never make the grade for England. For me there's a huge difference between someone who always nurtured a desire to play for Ireland and was always keenly aware of their Irishness (Phil Babb, Gary Breen, Mick McCarthy) and people who could never have cared less but found a granny somewhere when they got the itch for international football and knew they wouldn't get picked for their own country.

Personally I think the only way Ireland can have real sustainable success at international level is to have a league at home that is professional an organised with a proper youth system that develops our best talents, gives them first team football and then commands proper transfer fees for them when a foreign club gets interested. Something along the lines of the way the wonderful Scandinavian leagues work would more than do nicely. It's a little too soon to say but it looks like Irish clubs could be making a little progress towards that goal with some of them going professional, talented players who should have but didn't make it abroad coming home to play and a bit of European progress thrown in as well.

I'm quite sure that Macken is better than Doyle, Crowe or O'Flynn but is this really the message we want to send to the League of Ireland clubs? - that when the squad looks a little bit thin up front we'll look everywhere else first and then if we're really desperate and no one can find a granny anywhere we'll give you lads a shout? More importantly is it the message that should be sent to Irish football fans? - who might actually attend some club games if they thought there was any point or if they suspected there was some quality. In the long run is calling this type of player up in the interests of Irish football?

As I said at the start I don't know if Macken is another Morrison but if he is (and his underage cap for another country would lead me to believe he is) then I really don't want him. Not because of any misplaced sense of nationalism but because it's stupid, unneccesary and ultimately counter-productive.

I also (to echo Bateman) wouldn't want him becuase you'd have to be a total ****ing wanker to play for a national team you have no affinity for. Morrison is as much of a wanker for playing for Ireland as Ailton was for trying to play for Quatar. As I said I like Clinton Morrison but that doesn't mean he's any less of a wanker.

por

VinnyL wrote:

i want boys crying when the anthem comes on, like the irish rugby team.

You are joking aren’t you....I wonder how many of those Ulster rugby players love Amhrán na bhFiann, I don't think DUP councillor and former Ireland rugby international Davy Tweed has much time for it. And anyway they don't even play it or fly the flag at away games, to appease the Ulster men.....Give me a plastic paddy any day......

Villain

Bateman wrote:

"Its a great honour".

I'm sure it is. What a wanker.

Sad very sad

bizmark

Anyone see Stephen Elliott goal for sunderland ? if people are worryed about our weak forward line up why dont we give him a run out in the first team? think his under 21 record is quite good 7 caps 4 goals or something.....Andy reid might also be an option up front ?

/me puts on football newbe hat

TwoShedsJackson

VinnyL wrote:

and his goal against cameroon meant nothing then?

how quickly they forget.

No it meant we got a draw against Cameroon :rolleyes: As Eamon Dunphy said, Matt 'I belted out God Save the Queen at the playoff final in 2001' Holland had a fortunate knack of scoring the occasional useful goal to hide his general crushing averageness.

eirebhoy

DapperGent, you would be the ideal person to ask this question to. I don't know how long you lived in Africa but lets say you lived there all your life. You are growing up with an "African accent" and doing African things. Whether you consider yourself Irish or not you would also feel African at the same time.

You are 19 and playing for the Man Utd youths, hundreds of people play for the Man Utd youth's. You than get a call from the African FA asking you to play for them at the world youth championships, you heard nothing from the FAI. What better way to start your career than playing in the WYC? As I said, hundreds of people play for the Man Utd youths and have to pack their bags at the end of the year and go home. Very few players that play in the WYC don't get a chance at club level.

I am not saying he actually does consider himself Irish but lets not dismiss it straight off.

Big Ears

DapperGent wrote:

Schoolboy caps have never been considered to tie you to a particular nation, even before FIFA relaxed the rules regarding previous underage games. This is for the simple reason that schoolboy caps are awarded on the basis of geography rather than nationality. i.e If you are at school in a given country you're eligible to play for that particular countrys schoolboy team, nationality doesn't come into it.
.

well Bateman said any level , even one with different egibility rules .

StickyMcGinty

TwoShedsJackson wrote:

No it meant we got a draw against Cameroon :rolleyes: As Eamon Dunphy said, Matt 'I belted out God Save the Queen at the playoff final in 2001' Holland had a fortunate knack of scoring the occasional useful goal to hide his general crushing averageness.

if we had been beaten by the macaroons, we wouldnt have qualified past the group stages.

weve come a long way from the "england B team" status, lets not go back towards it again! i though brian kerr was a step in the right direction for irish blood, obviously not

thegills

and at the time he had never been given a chance to play for Ireland

WTF. This Grandparent rule has applied for years. If he really wanted to play for Ireland why didn't he enquire himself years ago. Sure in the early 90's every 2nd player in a green jersey was English.
Basically he tried with England and wasn't good enough and now he is trying Ireland.

thejollyrodger

Macken seems like a really decent guy

Dont make me feel sick. Thats the first black mark I've got against Kerr and we havent even started into the qualifiers yet. This is only Bulgaria FFS, who cares if we dont win. I think Kerr was well out of line for calling him up!!

StickyMcGinty

thejollyrodger wrote:

Dont make me feel sick. Thats the first black mark I've got against Kerr and we havent even started into the qualifiers yet. This is only Bulgaria FFS, who cares if we dont win. I think Kerr was well out of line for calling him up!!

agreed. i can understand calling someone up if they are unbelieveably better than what we've got. but when we've got plenty the same, and better than macken then why call jim up?

Big Ears

thegills wrote:

WTF. This Grandparent rule has applied for years. If he really wanted to play for Ireland why didn't he enquire himself years ago. Sure in the early 90's every 2nd player in a green jersey was English.
Basically he tried with England and wasn't good enough and now he is trying Ireland.

em you don't go up to coachs and go , pwease mister , pwease let in you're team .

They pick you , not you beg them .

Kone

thejollyrodger wrote:

Dont make me feel sick. Thats the first black mark I've got against Kerr and we havent even started into the qualifiers yet. This is only Bulgaria FFS, who cares if we dont win. I think Kerr was well out of line for calling him up!!

You don't think we lack something upfront then?

Davey Devil

Personally, I don't like the wait and see aspect of football pro's regarding international football. It seems many players choose which country to represent based on what's best for their career rather whan which country they have the most loyalty for.

To avoid this I think all football pro's with duel nationality should have to register with Fifa when they are 18 which country they chose to represent should they be picked. At 18 you should know what nationality you are. This system would put an end to the wait and see attitude.

Personally I think there are some players in the Irish team, who if had have been called up by the English team when they were younger would have had no problem accepting it. I'm not very comfortable with that situation. I think Macken was old enough to decide he was English when he represented their under 20's and should therefore not be allowed to represent us.

thejollyrodger

You don't think we lack something upfront then?

What I'm saying is that we dont need to call him in just for one friendly

Dewey

I cant belive so many people are attacking Brian Kerr over this.Lets look at what we have up front:

We have Morrison-who cant score at the moment for Ireland.
Lee- it remains to be seen if he is good enough.
Connolly- enough said.
Keane- Our only World class striker.

Its Brian Kerr's job to find the best players for Ireland and he hasnt pick Macken because he might aswell pick him but because he might be good enough. What if Macken scores like crazy for Ireland and is our match winner in the start of the world cup quilifiers?? I dont think you are going to mind he played 27minutes for England under 21's. If Macken is crap when he is given the chance then Kerr wont pick him.

I seen Elliotts goal for Sunderland and i do think he will do well for Ireland but he is only breaking into the Sunderland first team and Kerr wont pick him until he gets a few months of first team footie under his belt.

If macken turns out to be crap then i will say it but lets give him a chance and see how he does.

Johnny_the_fox

haha Plastic Paddy bull**** again..

if you son (/grandson) was born in England (or any other location around the world) .. and was an excellent (/good) prospect for Ireland in any sport <due to Parent(/Grandparent) Rule> ..

would you call him plastic paddy... i doubt it. :rolleyes:

you probably be the first person on the phone to make sure he plays for Ireland.

cournioni

VinnyL wrote:

if we had been beaten by the macaroons, we wouldnt have qualified past the group stages.

Well we didn't win the world cup so it didn't really make that much of a difference.

Big Ears

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Well we didn't win the world cup so it didn't really make that much of a difference.

Finniacially it did .

StickyMcGinty

and for our own pride it did matter!!

Tellox

Bateman wrote:

"Its a great honour".

I'm sure it is. What a wanker.

What a load of bullshít.

And keane is far from a 'world class' striker.

Davey Devil

I think too many people are judging this on whether we "need" the player or not. I've always fund supporters are more accepting to players with dubious qualifications if they are good. If they are crap then they are plastic paddies.

If Macken had have been called up to the full England squad, do you think he would have turned it down because he was holding out for a place in the Irish squad?? No chance. He's only playing for Ireland because he has no other international prospects. I don't blame him, he has a chance at international football, he'd be a fool to turn it down. But let's no go kidding ourselves into thinking he wants to play for Ireland because he's a proud Irishman. Personally I blame Kerr for picking him, I'd much rather see Jason Byrne in the squad. I don't care if he's supposedly not as good. At least he is Irish.

Big Ears

Davey Devil wrote:

Personally I blame Kerr for picking him, I'd much rather see Jason Byrne in the squad. I don't care if he's supposedly not as good. At least he is Irish.

id rather play with 1 up front then have to use Jason Byrne in a competitve game .

Davey Devil

But would you rather have Jon Macken upfront instead of Jason Byrne, that's the real question.

Big Ears

Davey Devil wrote:

But would you rather have Jon Macken upfront instead of Jason Byrne, that's the real question.

yes , but id rather have Wes Houlihan in a midfield 5 then have Jason Byrne up front with someone else .

if its a choice between two players of similiar ability , and one was Irish the other was half Irish , of course id prefer the full Irish person to play .
But I want us to do well and if that means playing someone from Mozambique or England or Scotland , well thats ok with me .

For anyone saying this is bad on Brian Kerr's part , it is his job to make the team do well , im sure picking Macken would go aginst some of his own principles , but his job is for Ireland to achieve the best they can , and that sometimes means picking players from other countries that are egible to play .

Bungalow Bill

Tellox wrote:

What a load of bullshít.

And keane is far from a 'world class' striker.

I can honestly say that I believe Robbie Keane is as good as almost any forward in the world. If he was playing for Arsenal or Real Madrid he would be regarded as such.

Bateman

Big Ears wrote:

What about another countrys shirt .
do you think Ryan Giggs should be allowed play for Wales even though he played with England as a schoolboy(the lowest internationel age level) ?

Btw on Macken playing for England : do you think playing for England U20 would give him a better chance of playing in a Premiership team ? , of course it would , and at the time he had never been given a chance to play for Ireland , maybe he thought he'd never get his chance , so why not play for England ? .

If he had played 27 minutes for Scotland U 20's once im not sure people would be having this argument .

I specifically put "OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY" in parenthesis in case anyone was simple enough to accuse me of petty anti-Englisness. On the Giggs question, NO, I don't think he should be allowed play for Wales. It may be purist bull**** but I'm consistent, most of the time.

Another poster spoke of Breen, and his background. My objections of Macken are on his having represented England, not the country in which he was born. Macken's "Premiership prospects" are immaterial to me, as an Irishman, that issue is so besides the point it nearly belongs in another thread. :rolleyes:

Bateman

>Originally Posted by Tellox
What a load of bullshít.

And keane is far from a 'world class' striker.


To anyone who knows anything about football, Keane's goal away to Holland was a glimpse of a world class striker and his ability. Alas this world class striker is languishing at a **** club with no prospects for consistent particiaption in European football, which is where he needs to be to convince the doubters he is world class.

And if he's not "world class", then he is on the next tier down, which isn't exactly "far from world class".

eirebhoy

Bateman wrote:

My objections of Macken are on his having represented England, not the country in which he was born.

I don't know whether Macken considers himself English or Irish but Andy O'Brien also played for England at U-21 level and he didn't choose Ireland to boost his career as he was very highly rated and had every chance of making the full England team.

In February 1999, he played in a friendly against France at Pride Park but when Taylor offered him the chance in England's next competitive outing, O'Brien demurred and took time out to ponder his international future. He was flattered by the English attention but he was aware of his Irish roots - his grandparents Danny and Kathleen O'Brien had moved from Kilfinnane in south-west Limerick to look for work in the mills of Yorkshire - and two months after his English debut, he played for Ireland in an under-21 friendly against Sweden in Birr.

People approach him now and wonder, what with his upwardly mobile status, if he regrets the decision. "I say no. It wasn't really close. I only played against France because it was a friendly and there was pressure from the club's point of view because they think it's more prestigious to play for England than for Ireland." He has no doubts. He travelled to Kilfinnane with his father last summer and the experience overwhelmed him. "Just picking up a few pieces of my past," he said.

So what I am saying is Macken may consider himself English but you cannot just presume this because he played 27 minutes for the U-20's.

Also, England were supposedly interested in capping Carlo Cudicini as he has lived there for a number of years and is entitled to British citizenship. The same with Edu although he's capped with Brazil now. Puts Mackens situation into perspective.

No country would refuse a player if they are good enough to get into the team. We're also not the only country. Copied and pasted from another forum:

Eusebio - Played for Portugal, but is African.

Neuville, Klose, and the African. Play for Germany. Are Swiss, Polish, and ?

Vieri - Plays for Italy, but is Australian.

Most of the Dutch team - Play for Netherlands, but are Surinamese.

Half the French side - African.

Norway's keeper - American

Big Ears

Eusebio= Mozambique , the German player you're talking about=Ghana

Vieri is more Italian than Austrailian , but he is egible for both . (well was .)

there are several Dutch players from Surinam but a lot of them grew up in Holland and they're parents were Surinamese , same story with France and African countries .

Neuville could have also played for Italy .

Danny Cadamarteri(ex Everton) could have played for : England , Ireland , Italy , Nigeria, and Jamaica .