Aikido, or something similar?

SuprSi

Howdy - I'm looking at starting a martial art, for something new to do, fitness, and of course self defence. I don't particularly want to start doing anything of the attacking variety, so was thinking of Aikido. I like hearing about the way users handle their opponents, with their momentum, throwing them and not really striking out.

Is Aikido the best self defence type of martial art, or can someone recommend something different?

Cheers,

Si.

columok

I did Aikido for years and was a former UCD club captain and instructor. I no longer do Aikido but do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instead.

Being honest having tried most martial arts, traditional and otherwise, I reckon that BJJ is the most gentle of all. BJJ allows you to control a fully resisting opponent and pure BJJ involves no striking whatsoever. Aikido doesnt really work for self defence. I have tried it in real self defence scenarios and in sparring and it worked in neither. Also I am 6 ft 2, 90 odd kgs and fairly fit/strong so if it didnt work for me, god help some normally sized person.

BJJ is a ground grappling art and we incorporate standing techniques from wrestling (greco-roman and freestyle) to round ourselves off. Its suited to people of all shapes and sizes (both my coaches are about 65kg) and is great for fitness and general health! Also its brilliant fun!

BJJ can be found with Colm O'Reilly in Firhouse (where i train)

www.twokingsmma.net

Also can be found with John Kavanagh in Harolds Cross

www.irishbjj.com

Colm also teaches in UCD during term time



You could also try Judo or Wrestling for similar non-striking options. Also contrary to popular opinion Aikido does contain strikes!

SuprSi

Brazilian Ju Jitsu sounds good, and different! Harold's cross isn't too far for me either, so I think I'll check that one out.

Thanks for the info!

columok

Cool. Hope you enjoy it. Might see you in Harolds Cross in the future!

Enjoy the rolling!

Colm_OReilly

SuprSi wrote:

Brazilian Ju Jitsu sounds good, and different! Harold's cross isn't too far for me either, so I think I'll check that one out.

Thanks for the info!

Excellent! I promise you won't regret it. Just tell Kav we sent you. And say hi if you see me on the mats!

Take Care,
Colm

Bri

columok wrote:

I did Aikido for years and was a former UCD club captain and instructor. Aikido doesnt really work for self defence. I have tried it in real self defence scenarios and in sparring and it worked in neither. Also I am 6 ft 2, 90 odd kgs and fairly fit/strong so if it didnt work for me, god help some normally sized person.

Sorry but I don't really get this...how does it fail to work? I've never done it but I would have thought it was a plausible form of defence?

Does it flat-out not work in your opinion or is it a case of not teaching moves for today's attack-scenarios?

columok

Sorry but I don't really get this...how does it fail to work? I've never done it but I would have thought it was a plausible form of defence?

Aikido, like many traditional arts that dont include sparring, never pressure tests its techniques. There is no real threat of actually being hit in an Aikido dojo, so one never has to face the heart-racing terror of someone really coming at you in an unpredictable manner. When the time comes to actually use all that training, you are a so unused to physical contact that you buckle under pressure.

Does it flat-out not work in your opinion or is it a case of not teaching moves for today's attack-scenarios?

The only situations, IMHO, that Aikido could work in would be against a much, much much inferior attacker (drunk-falling about and lunging with big slow punches). An attacker like this, you could easily run away from- hence it lacks effectiveness.

Its not the techniques or principles, some of which are used in Judo and BJJ (and some traditional JJ) to good effect. Its the training system!

Sparks

columok wrote:

Aikido, like many traditional arts that dont include sparring, never pressure tests its techniques.
<snip>
The only situations, IMHO, that Aikido could work in would be against a much, much much inferior attacker

*ahem*
I wouldn't advise saying that to someone like Saito-sensei

And I wouldn't call training with sensei Rogers "pressure-free" or "laid-back".

Besides, there are other benefits from aikido training, as you know...

columok

Sparks,

Whats your real name? I obviously know you from Pearse St.

Admittedly training with Sensei Rogers certainly puts you under pressure but the majority of your time spent is training with other people in a more chilled pace. (Which is cool)

Only responding to the issue of self defence. Aikido does indeed have other benefits.

Colum

Sparks

Whats your real name? I obviously know you from Pearse St.

Maybe columok, but it's been a long time since I was on the mats. My name's Mark Dennehy.

columok

Colum O'Keeffe is mine.

Was wondering why one of the Irish Aikikai faithful wasnt at Summer school . Oh the memories.

Have you completely given up training? Since I gave up I no longer have a dodgy lower back from my crap ukemi. Id recommend BJJ for aikido people as it really is "aikido on the ground" as they say.

Sparks

Did give up completely Colum, but more because I was noticing that I was picking out points to apply atemi on people while walking down grafton street
That, and a training accident where I broke a friends shoulder, just totally put me off as I started in Aikido because I thought that I could avoid that kind of thing in Aikido.

But I have noticed my flexibility decreasing from where it was, and I miss the high ukemi, so I am thinking about coming back in a year or so, once some other stuff is sorted out.

columok

There really is nothing worse than when you injure a training partner. (Happened to me before) It kind of shakes your confidence completely.

I hope it works out and that you enjoy your return to Aikido. You should consider some Yoga in the interim and you can blitz your flexibility and help your fitness too. That way, when you make your phoenixlike return you can be bouncy and avoid all those beginner injuries.

Best wishes,

Colum

Bri

Thanks for the reply. I see what your getting at.

columok

No worries! See you in UCD in Sept. Come over and say hello at the BJJ stand.

Colum

Dyr

Bri wrote:

Sorry but I don't really get this...how does it fail to work? I've never done it but I would have thought it was a plausible form of defence?

Does it flat-out not work in your opinion or is it a case of not teaching moves for today's attack-scenarios?

Back in my aikido days we trained under a guy who to be honest was a bit off the wall, we pretty much went full force with dem big ould attacks. Anywhoo we'd try tone it down at seminars with some of the traditional guys but even then a lot of the time theyd wind up frozen to the spot when an attack was put in with semi-force. some of them even felt they were being oppressed and would mutter something about "violence" while they ran off to nurse their inner child. pretty much says everything about aikido and self defence i'm afraid :rolleyes:

funny thing was when our instructors instructor came over he said "why are they all attacking so slow?? " you cant win

Bri

ok

pearsquasher

My Pops trained with an Aikido master for about 4 years in France. He showed me some stuff and it was pretty damn good - it saved his ass a few times as he lives in what used to be a dodgy area of Paris. Once against a mugger with a knife. This wasn't because he practiced pressure testing against knife attacks, it was because he trained long and hard enough for the PRINCIPLES of Aikido to naturally help him.

I have tried it in real self defence scenarios and in sparring and it worked in neither. Also I am 6 ft 2, 90 odd kgs and fairly fit/strong so if it didnt work for me, god help some normally sized person.

Eh, as far as i know from talking to my father, other martial artists who studied it in Japan and doing it myself for 3 months in DCU, you seemed to have either utterly missed the core ideas of Aikido (no strength, not about sparring/trading techniques) because of a poor teacher/style or you just didn't get it (perhaps because of not training long enough or you had a questionable teacher?)

no real threat of actually being hit in an Aikido dojo

.. you definitely ended up in a dodgey dojo.... there are many

Most improtant thing when studying an art is to get a well balanced Dojo/teacher. This takes a long time and much investigation because there is a lot of crap out there. It took me 10 years to find this out.... 10 years out of a possible 60, 70 more practicing is not bad. How many of us find the right partner in a relationship the first time? You have to go through a process of educating yourself in your own tastes, beaing able to discern whats good and bad, and getting over preconceptions in martial arts...( and with women.)

So try Aikido out for a while, read about it, go to other aikido clubs and see the differences and be open to other arts and you should find what you want. Most of all, be patient. Also be weary of folks telling you that their negative experiences of other arts means those arts are worthless. They have their own agendas on whats good and bad that mayu be different from yours. All the arts that have come to the West have long roots and that means lots of people are involved with them and you know what peopel are like Things can get fuzzy. Happy hunting.

columok

Eh, as far as i know from talking to my father, other martial artists who studied it in Japan and doing it myself for 3 months in DCU, you seemed to have either utterly missed the core ideas of Aikido (no strength, not about sparring/trading techniques) because of a poor teacher/style or you just didn't get it (perhaps because of not training long enough or you had a questionable teacher?)

Its a trifle ignorant to assume that I have missed the core ideas of Aikido. You have never trained with me and know nothing about me. My teachers were far from poor and are very well regarded in Ireland. My standard of Aikido was quite good and I trained five days a week for three years. I never missed training and worked my ass off. You have trained for three months in Aikido, so dont assume that gives you greater knowledge of the art. Not trying to get into a pissing contest but I think you are assuming that I am basing my experience on training for 6 months with some cowboy instructor. Far from it!!

If you train in DCU you train in the same style that I did, namely Aikikai Aikido. Youre teacher, I presume Cyril, while teaching in a different way is not spectrums away from what I used to do. Dont assume that because Im a big guy I wasnt able to use technique rather than strength. I use the principles of flow and non-resistance in my grappling because I spar. Without sparring you cannot apply such principles! BJJ has allowed me to put into action what Aikido only talks about!!

.. you definitely ended up in a dodgey dojo.... there are many

No, I didnt. What I trained in was very representative of Aikikai Aikido. We had frequent training with various Shihan from Japan. Again dont assume that I was training in a "dodgy" dojo just because I have a negative viewpoint of Aikido. Thats a little dismissive. Im not saying that Im an Aikido expert but I was club captain in UCD and an instructor so I do "get" Aikido.


Sorry If I seem pissed off, but I felt that you were invalidating my opinions by dismissing me as someone who just had a bad experience with Aikido.

pearsquasher

Fair enough - you've put a lot of time in to Aikido, found it wasn't for you and moved on. I was basing what i said on your statement

I have tried it in real self defence scenarios and in sparring and it worked in neither. Also I am 6 ft 2, 90 odd kgs and fairly fit/strong so if it didnt work for me, god help some normally sized person.

....which would would lead someone, like the poster, who is new to martial arts to think that Aikido was useless in self defence and sparring. I was just trying to balance the point by getting them to realise that there are many schools of aikido, as in most martial arts, and that one persons experience - yours in this case - shouldn't put them off. Just like one person praising their own art, and how they think its the best after doing countless others of unknown qulality, should be taken with a pinch of salt. Thats all. Wasn't a personal thing. :rolleyes:

columok

I was basing what i said on your statement

Ah yes but you seemed to have disregarded the statement I made before that about my experience in Aikido.

....which would would lead someone, like the poster, who is new to martial arts to think that Aikido was useless in self defence and sparring.

Youre right there and I make no apologies for this belief. I have never seen a style of Aikido that is effective in self defence. Put an Aikido person in with a wrestler, judoka or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter and youll see how effective Aikido is. Aikidoka normally argue that Aikido only works against committed attacks, but theirs nothing more committed than someone trying to grab you and slam you onto some mats.

Even Tomiki aikido which practices "competition" dont spar their techniques against resisting opponents. We consider our training to be alive training because we train and develop timing, energy and motion.

Timing: You are working against something that isnt prescripted. It can come from the left, the right wherever. This forces you to develop a sense of timing, something I feel is the greatest shortcoming in Aikido

Energy: Your opponent is giving back equal energy and resistance to you. Not standing dead or following compliantly. They have just as much input into the training as you do.

Motion: Both yourself and your opponent are moving, moving, moving. Aikido deals will a lot of movement but neglects timing and energy, making it impractical in my opinion.

Id be interested to learn of an Aikido style that trains this way.

Sparks

columok wrote:

Id be interested to learn of an Aikido style that trains this way.

Sounds like Sensei Rogers' trouble-in-the-carpark-waza to me

columok

Ah but what works for someone who trains 7 days a week all day every day for 30-odd years isnt gonna necessarily work for the rest of us.

pearsquasher

but..... and here comes a statement that could open up amazing amount of debate :eek: Sparring isn't fighting!

From my fathers 2 anecdotes and from those of an aquaintence who has since gone to Japan to study Aikido in the hombu of the style he is in (dunno whcih one it is), they have found their studies of Aikido to be beneficial to their survival in actual spontaneous, chaotic aggressive actions... but only after extensive study on their parts over a long time. Their training proved to "work" in the real "fight" that they found themselves in..... circumstances that are extremely rare, i might add.

Now I'm, not arguing that lots of sparring time, BJJ and the MMA stuff your into Columok, isn't, as equally beneficial in a real situtation as a highly skilled aikidoka's training. I agree that "alive" training does absolutely improve your overall ability to protect yourself in a real fight.... but i just think Aikido can be just as valid but comes at it from a different angle. Granted one that may take longer to master dues to its "sophisticated" body movement... but no less valid as a self-defence art, should the time and effort be put in.

To over simplify it in a cartoon kind of way!.....

2 guys sparring in UFC or K1, one a BJJ/MMA guy, the other a high level Aikidoka - i bet the BJJ/MMA guys wins the fight. Why? Cos they are used to sparring and the aikidoka has entered their ldomain..simple as that.

Same 2 guys get seriously assaulted on the street, I bet they both have equal chance of surviving the encounter. Why? Cos one has studied sparring and can engineer the fight to go to that level, the other has concentrated more on distance timeing and the aggressors momentum and reacts accordingly.. each now has the possibility of bringing the situation into their doman.

I exaggerate the above scenarios and of coure am not talking about what-ifs arguments which run into their millions. Every situtaion is unique. Sparring is less so.

There is a massive difference in both combatitve acts (sparrring, and fighting) and my point is ultimately that you cannot dismiss good Aikido, trained in for a long time, for defending oneself. I am not saying one is better or worse.

Sparks

columok wrote:

Ah but what works for someone who trains 7 days a week all day every day for 30-odd years isnt gonna necessarily work for the rest of us.

True
But then, that logic does mean that Gracie Ju-Jitsu is useless as a martial art, because it can't hope to defeat a practitioner of Glock-9mm-jitsu

But me, personally, I always found that the parts of Aikido that gave me the most reward were nothing to do with violence and everything to do with mental focus, inner calm and physical flexibility.

In a fight "on the street", I would prefer to resort as rapidly as possible to Nike-do....

columok

but..... and here comes a statement that could open up amazing amount of debate

Yep. Round 1. DINGDINGDING!

From my fathers 2 anecdotes and from those of an aquaintence who has since gone to Japan to study Aikido in the hombu of the style he is in (dunno whcih one it is), they have found their studies of Aikido to be beneficial to their survival in actual spontaneous, chaotic aggressive actions... but only after extensive study on their parts over a long time. Their training proved to "work" in the real "fight" that they found themselves in..... circumstances that are extremely rare, i might add.

Dont base your beliefs on the anecdotes of others. Figure things out for yourself. Dont listen to me. Find your own truth. To paraphrase the great philosopher J. Krishnamurti "The minute you start following someone else you are no longer following the truth". Go spar, test and figure things out for yourself.

Now I'm, not arguing that lots of sparring time, BJJ and the MMA stuff your into Columok, isn't, as equally beneficial in a real situtation as a highly skilled aikidoka's training.

Its more beneficial because we spar. Without real alive contact you have no concept of what works and what doesnt. You have no idea of what real pressure feels like.

2 guys sparring in UFC or K1, one a BJJ/MMA guy, the other a high level Aikidoka - i bet the BJJ/MMA guys wins the fight. Why? Cos they are used to sparring and the aikidoka has entered their ldomain..simple as that

Agreed!

Same 2 guys get seriously assaulted on the street, I bet they both have equal chance of surviving the encounter. Why? Cos one has studied sparring and can engineer the fight to go to that level, the other has concentrated more on distance timeing and the aggressors momentum and reacts accordingly.. each now has the possibility of bringing the situation into their doman.

You concentrate plenty on distance, timing and controlling momentum in BJJ, Judo, Wrestling etc. I would say you actually train more in distance timing and momentum in BJJ, Judo and Wrestling than you do in Aikido!

I think you are approaching a street vs. sport debate.
Read this: It might clear up my attitude on the subject.
Street Vs. Sport

columok

But then, that logic does mean that Gracie Ju-Jitsu is useless as a martial art, because it can't hope to defeat a practitioner of Glock-9mm-jitsu

No the logic is that martial arts in general are uneffective against guns. The aim is to be the most effective in as many situations as possible not to be invincible.

But me, personally, I always found that the parts of Aikido that gave me the most reward were nothing to do with violence and everything to do with mental focus, inner calm and physical flexibility.

Cool. But I think you can get this from any sport. (See Martial Arts: Way of Life Thread)

In a fight "on the street", I would prefer to resort as rapidly as possible to Nike-do....

Much prefer Asics-Do myself. Less hard on the knees.

pearsquasher

interesting read.....

Ultimately i feel that the debate is absolute smoke and mist anyway because someone who has mastered a traditional non-sports style of martial art would probably never bother tryimg to pit himself against a sports martial arist to "prove" his/her techniques out. I mean why? To prove who's better at self-defence under artificial rules no matter how liberal?

Its not something that's provable unless you have this scenario:

1)
Record a statistically viable (i am guessing 10's of millions) real-life aggrssive encounters of sports MAists and trad. MAists....under all conditions, using all weapons through out history

2) Add up the number of "successes" injuries, deaths, emotional shock, etc etc

3) Run em trhough some statitical analysis machine and then MAYBE you could definitively say "look... X MA really comes out on top over all the rest. Get rid of the other ones and everybody study X!"

However.. we all know that is absolutely impossible to do such a study and so the argument falls and all we are left with is a rich tapestry of arts that we all love doing!


Funnily enough, natural selection during times of war probaly did kill off many impractible martial arts and so there are a few traditional schools out there that actually proved themselves extremely effective over generations of actual use. I'm sure many old schools survived through other means too though!.... lika avoiding the fight in the first place<- a sort of survival in itself

columok

Funnily enough, natural selection during times of war probaly did kill off many impractible martial arts and so there are a few traditional schools out there that actually proved themselves extremely effective over generations of actual use. I'm sure many old schools survived through other means too though!

Look at boxing, wrestling, muay thai, fencing, jiu-jitsu any that work hang about. We no longer have natural selection. The nearest thing is competition and sparring. Take what works. Discard what doesnt.

To prove who's better at self-defence under artificial rules no matter how liberal?

A punch is still a punch. The best puncher on the street is gonna be a boxer. The best kicker a muay thai or full contact kick boxer. The best clinch fighter -the wrestler. The best ground fighter- the BJJ guy. Again, if you cant win with rules, how you gonna win without them! Add in street factors and delivery system remains. You just have to change your tactics though!

pearsquasher

You just have to change your tactics though!

Couldn't agree more......

*changes tactics

Dyr

columok wrote:

Even Tomiki aikido which practices "competition" dont spar their techniques against resisting opponents. We consider our training to be alive training because we train and develop timing, energy and motion.

This forces you to develop a sense of timing, something I feel is the greatest shortcoming in Aikido

Actually tomiki/shudokan or whatever do or did train against actively resisting opponents but it gets kinda messy, two dudes trying to do aikido on each other usually winds up in a judo grapply situation at which point they disengage and start from scratch. I think thats why Tomiki referred to his style as "hamare judo", "seperated judo" judo played at a long distance. Funnily enough the one style of aikido that does use a degree of competition looks totally different to the rest, wonder why?? three of these kids are doing the same thing...


Either way pearsquasher, you're doing aikido 3 months so pretty much all your opinions are from what you've read and/or been told, not direct experience. You shouldnt dismiss Colms first hand experience just because it doesnt gel with what you've been told or would like to hear. To be honest in my experience most of what you'll learn in an aikido dojo will go right out the window against an actively resisting person, its sad to see people are still being told that they'll magically transfer anything from those beautiful gyaku hanmi irimi nage omotes into a real fight. Sparring might'nt be a real fight but it a damn sight closer to it then aikido keiko is

columok

Actually tomiki/shudokan or whatever do or did train against actively resisting opponents but it gets kinda messy, two dudes trying to do aikido on each other usually winds up in a judo grapply situation at which point they disengage and start from scratch. I think thats why Tomiki referred to his style as "hamare judo", "seperated judo" judo played at a long distance. Funnily enough the one style of aikido that does use a degree of competition looks totally different to the rest, wonder why?? three of these kids are doing the same thing...

Good Point.

Its funny that when I had a mess grapple with any Aikido mates it used to be two people tentatively grabbing at each others wrists. It was impossible to do any Aikido on someone,because we were so unaccustomed to doing it on someone who didnt want to go with the flow as such. I think that all grappling practiced against a resisting opponent will pretty much look the same after time. The human body can only have so many variations after all. Get two Aikido, Karate whatever guys to mess grapple and itll look like bad Judo or bad Wrestling.

To be honest in my experience most of what you'll learn in an aikido dojo will go right out the window against an actively resisting person,

True. You might be able to block the first lunging punch but after that youre screwed. Itll get into a clinch and youll be on the ground.

its sad to see people are still being told that they'll magically transfer anything from those beautiful gyaku hanmi irimi nage omotes into a real fight.

I think peoples egos let them believe this. They want to believe that they can defeat people with beautiful Aikido with minimal effort. The reality is so much different. Also wrestling has a technique called a 2 on 1 which enables you to take someones back Irimi-Nage style. It works because its drilled "live". Its not magical or unique.

Sparring might'nt be a real fight but it a damn sight closer to it then aikido keiko is

I agree. Its as close as you can get to the real thing without knife-fighting pirates down in the docklands late at night!

pearsquasher

I'm hearing you. 3 months Aikido and a couple of stories aren't much "proof". I just wanted to throw a few ideas out there. I imagine a good 20 years experience with Aikido would be required for anyone to have a real opinion.

But you have to ask yourself how come sports martial arts (and Aikido for that matter) are only recent? How come, in 1000 years of development, most martial arts that have survived are NOT sports-orientated and don't use free-sparring as a core training tool? How come, the students of Dojo's and
Chinese martial arts schools didn't wear gloves or helmets and had far less rules when they had matches?

I just think it has a lot more to do with the pyschological aspect of real fights. Specifically, that somebody will possibly get actually killed or maimed for life. Matches would occur where one of the opponents may get an eye gauged out, permanently torn ligaments etc.

This is not a concern in sports MA and so I think may possibly go a long way to changing the dynamics of an encounter - expecially the stuff going on before phuysical engagement, the attitudes of aggresor and defender etc. It seems to me that Aikido developed, along with sports MA's in a time when the death of an assailant may not have been a good outcome for legal reasons in our modern world, more that moral. Aikido comes from the schools that dealt with actual combat and emerged during peacetime as an art that met actual combat (not sport) with a non-aggressive attitude. Thats why i don't think you do it justice comparing it to sports MA in regards self-defence on the street. Again, because of its passive nature, i appreciate Aikido may take a lot longer to master than a mixed MA but isn't the journey a major part of the fact it allows you to avoid fighting?

Do sports MA's or mixed MA's cultivate this same awareness. I don't know. There is just a reason constant "alive" pressure-testing doesn't seem to have been done as much over the centuries and i'm sure its not because its a new idea.... i think a look at the cultures and history of the countires the Martial arts came from give a clue..... and thats why a lot of folks go for the Trad MA's.... its not just ritual, japanophelia or "interesting" looking costumes... there is a deeper thing going on. something at the core of humanness and our success as a species.

Ok... gettting deep there! :rolleyes: I hope someone catches my drift!

Unpossible

However.. we all know that is absolutely impossible to do such a study and so the argument falls and all we are left with is a rich tapestry of arts that we all love doing!

There is some guy in america making such a list of attacks, it featured in Black Belt magazine a few months ago (its the only english magazine in the local library)

You shouldnt dismiss Colms first hand experience just because it doesnt gel with what you've been told or would like to hear

I agree, an opinion was asked for and somebody with (clearly) years of expirence gave it, just because it didn't agree with yours does not make the opinion any less valid. Personally I find Colm or Colum (I get confused) very helpful & informative (although he leans heavily on promotion of BJJ ).

To be honest in my experience most of what you'll learn in an aikido dojo will go right out the window against an actively resisting person,

I imagine this is true of most, if not all martial arts (or do I just panic?)

In relation to the above post (not the one I quoted), it looks like most MA have been watered down, I read before that TKD was far more effective before it became so popular. Ive even heard of Krav Maga being watered down over in the US (somebody in LA did it if I recall)

columok

But you have to ask yourself how come sports martial arts (and Aikido for that matter) are only recent? How come, in 1000 years of development, most martial arts that have survived are NOT sports-orientated and don't use free-sparring as a core training tool? How come, the students of Dojo's and

They sparred. They trained with full resistance. This non-resistant training is a relatively recent thing. Training in ranks (in Japanese arts anyway) was developed with training huge groups of untrained people in as short a time as possible. The samurai trained informally, in small groups with one to one training. They wouldnt have lasted long if they didnt spar with shinai or bokken. Why dont people train "alive" as such? Try this:Why doesnt everyone train alive?

I just think it has a lot more to do with the pyschological aspect of real fights.

How does eyes coming out affect the psychological aspects of a fight. Maybe its a safety thing. Not really sure what you mean here.

This is not a concern in sports MA and so I think may possibly go a long way to changing the dynamics of an encounter - expecially the stuff going on before phuysical engagement,

Sports MA people can sit on your chest and bite, gouge. A boxer can punch your throat, eyes, balls. Our skills transfer to dirty tactice if necessary.

. It seems to me that Aikido developed, along with sports MA's in a time when the death of an assailant may not have been a good outcome for legal reasons in our modern world, more that moral.

Sports MA developed because some people knew (Kano, Oyama, boxers, ancient greeks etc.) that unless you sparred something you couldnt use it in combat.

Aikido comes from the schools that dealt with actual combat and emerged during peacetime as an art that met actual combat (not sport) with a non-aggressive attitude.

Admittedly Daito Ryu schools had a terrible reputation for students being injured. Dont forget, early Aikido teachers (Ueshiba, Tomiki etc.) were all fighters. They had fought and sparred from a young age and constantly had to protect themselves with their art. They had a base in real fighting not like Aikido and TMA practitioners today!

Thats why i don't think you do it justice comparing it to sports MA in regards self-defence on the street. Again, because of its passive nature, i appreciate Aikido may take a lot longer to master than a mixed MA but isn't the journey a major part of the fact it allows you to avoid fighting?

What makes you think that what I do makes me more likely to get into a fight than an Aikido person. I have nothing to prove about my abilities. I know what I can and cant do. An Aikido person only has anecdotes and hearsay to give them an understanding of their abilities or the lack of. They have something to prove on an unconscious level and therefore are more likely to get in a fight.

Do sports MA's or mixed MA's cultivate this same awareness. I don't know. There is just a reason constant "alive" pressure-testing doesn't seem to have been done as much over the centuries and i'm sure its not because its a new idea.... i think a look at the cultures and history of the countires the Martial arts came from give a clue..... and thats why a lot of folks go for the Trad MA's.... its not just ritual, japanophelia or "interesting" looking costumes... there is a deeper thing going on. something at the core of humanness and our success as a species.

You look at sport as some kind of triviality. What makes traditional martial arts more significant. I have had more spiritual and psychologically challenging experience training in BJJ and MMA than in years of Aikido. In competition you have to face all of your demons, your ego everything. You face the truth. You cant hide behind theory anymore. Thats pretty deep. Why dont people train alive? Check the article above.

columok

There is some guy in america making such a list of attacks, it featured in Black Belt magazine a few months ago (its the only english magazine in the local library)

According to US police sources (LAPD i think) 90% of fights end up on the ground also. Scary really. That means you are within kicking range of any mates standing around. Thats when you really want your Asics-Do or Nike-Do to kick in!

Personally I find Colm or Colum (I get confused) very helpful & informative (although he leans heavily on promotion of BJJ ).

Thanks. BJJ Rocks WOOOOH! (Only Joking )

I imagine this is true of most, if not all martial arts (or do I just panic?)

If youve never sparred or had to deal with that adrenaline then you are gonna panic. Its a horrible experience.

Dyr

just as an aside, daito ryu from what i heard did not have a huge amount of injuries involved in training, it was Ueshibas first dojo that developed the rep for the hard training methods.

This latter part of this interview probably offers more insight on this subject than anything I'll post.

http://www.shinyokai.com/interview.htm

"I imagine a good 20 years experience with Aikido would be required for anyone to have a real opinion"

i disagree, I feel thats a cop out thats fed to inquiring grasshoppers. 20 years is a lifetime. Back at the turn of the century there was no guarentee you'd have 20 years of adult life. im sure Ueshiba and all the rest went off and did their own thing after far less time. If it takes someone 20 years to form a valid opinion from experience theres something very wrong with what you're doing.

Unpossible

If youve never sparred or had to deal with that adrenaline then you are gonna panic. Its a horrible experience.

well in judo most of what we learned (2 mins before sparring even) leaves my mind for a red haze where I just try to react and attack (or I go blank and just stand their gripping the other person waiting for them to do something).

Ive never been attacked in real life, but I can only see myself running or looking for a weapon (bottle, chair) if running is not an option.

Dyr

columok wrote:

According to US police sources (LAPD i think) 90% of fights end up on the ground also. Scary really. That means you are within kicking range of any mates standing around. Thats when you really want your Asics-Do or Nike-Do to kick in!

Colm that statistic was kinda misleading when the gracies picked it up. i think it was a reference to ninty per cent of their arrests etc. Most cops intend to put people on the floor if they resist, aint yoo never heard of a pig pile??

columok

Yeah they tend to use things for their own publicity (Rorion especially).

Had heard that statistic somewhere else though. Might be wrong though. A cop I know told me something similar though!

aint yoo never heard of a pig pile??

LOL!

BACK TO BASICS

This seems to be a my *ick is bigger than yours type of debate, having trained in AiKiDo both free style and traditional- both have merrits .Being derived from actual combat in the field.I n the real world there are no rules there are no refs , help always arrives too dam late.Any body who has had problems with thier AiKi Do should visit the hard style thought in NAVAN where you get smacked bashed and brused from hitting the mat so hard.

Yes MMA has its own strong points but how many of the MMA guys face 3 plus attackers? Timing and awareness make for good reactiions and thus better your chances of actualy walking away with all your bits in the right places.
Some of the sensi teach the "god style" thatis every body is expecting to be thrown or pinned" any way if you resist some of the lock and pins you had better make sure that the VHI is up to date.


SIMPLY PUT SEEK OUT THE ONES WHO TEACH THE REAL DEAL NOT THE WATERED DOWN POLITICALY CORRECT *HITE THAT IS BEING PASED OFF.

columok

This seems to be a my *ick is bigger than yours type of debate

Thats exactly what it turned into.

Any body who has had problems with thier AiKi Do should visit the hard style thought in NAVAN where you get smacked bashed and brused from hitting the mat so hard.

I dont think that just because you get bruised, youre style of Aikido is more effective. I train in wrestling and the effectiveness of my training isnt in how hard I get slammed but in how much resistance their is in training. Effective training doesnt mean getting injured in training which I think is a major problem in "harder" Aikido styles. To really determine how effective your Aikido is enter a sub-grappling tournament!

Yes MMA has its own strong points but how many of the MMA guys face 3 plus attackers?

If 1 guy can beat you in an MMA gym then how are you gonna deal with 3! In my opinion the best multiple attackers training is athletics (800m)! I think when people talk of multiple attackers training they dont give enough credit to the dangerousness of each attacker. Get those 3 guys to put on boxing gloves and go at you and let you take you down/strike and see how well you do!

Timing and awareness make for good reactiions and thus better your chances of actualy walking away with all your bits in the right places.

You only develop timing by sparring against an unpredictable resisting opponent. Not pre-ordained telegraphed attacks!

SIMPLY PUT SEEK OUT THE ONES WHO TEACH THE REAL DEAL NOT THE WATERED DOWN POLITICALY CORRECT *HITE THAT IS BEING PASED OFF.

MMA prevents this sort of situation by competing regularily. Aikido doesnt have the same self-checking mechanism!

Colm_OReilly

Just to clarify some of the things on this thread.

MMA is not "better" per se. It's the training methods that are used which produce skill.

The argument that an art must have merit because it's old is logically fallacious. It's an appeal to age. Just because something is old or has been around a while does not mean it is good or better than something else.

Religion has been around for millenia, and is not based around logic in the slightest. In fact, any scientific or logical inquiry into it quickly demolishes it. Religion is based on believe, which is outside the scope of science and debate. However, self defence and fighting are within the realm of scientific inquiry. We can test a theory, and record its results in a number of different situations. Draw Conclusions, then test again.

Take Care,
Colm

BACK TO BASICS

listen! MY POINT IS THAT THE STYLE OF AIKI BEING THOUGHT IS SOFTENED TO BE EASIER ON THE NEW FOLKS STARTING OUT .However this has been continued through the course of the training. As for putting on gloves ? why? I train with open hands not the pugulistig form .as for expecting a certian type of attack --well the traing of any combat derived art opens your eyes plus your sences all of them not just the BASIC 5!
on the street why roll on thr ground with an attacker when his mates are ready to kick the heart and soul out of you?
I am not saying that mma is not effectife total or that AiKI IS THE ANSWER .Rather that most of the sensi are teaching poor quality . new is not alwats best either. THE HOLY GRAIL OF KEEPING IT ALL TOGETHER IS WHAT WE ARE ALL LOOKING FOR .IS IT NOT? Thats why MMA come about because of the *hite . SORRY BUT SPORT AND LIFE SURRORT DONT MIX.AS FOR INJURIES IF THE ATTACKERS GET THAT WEL THERE IS NO BELL FOR ROUND 2

IN THE SPIRT OF THE SEARCH
PJ

columok

Someones not listening. listen!

No offence, but your points arent particularily coherent or structured so if I'm missing something please inform me.

I dont agree with teaching "hard" or "soft" styles of martial arts as I feel they are the same thing. We train with full resistance in our classes yet we train safely and try and minimise injuries, bumps and bruises by training smart. Just because youre training/ukemi whatever is injuring your back doesnt make it any more valuable than someone who is training "soft". The value comes from the resistance training which is where you learn what works for you and what doesnt.

We have guys who train for professional MMA competition(my coaches), some who enter amateur MMA competition (like myself) and some who just wanna have fun/get fit/learn self defence. They all learn the same thing except at different intensities. The 3 levels of training are still functional. I think the hard/soft thinking present in traditional martial arts is crap. If soft means to move around an attackers energy then a good boxer (parrying/slipping a punch) a wrestler (moving around in the clinch) or a jiu jitsu fighter (moving around an opponents pressure) all train "soft".

As for putting on gloves ? why?

So that you can train with full resistance while reducing the risk of injury. If you arent getting hit at all in your training then you arent training with full resistance and you arent gonna develop the timing required to deal with REAL committed attacks.

I train with open hands not the pugulistig form .

A punch is a punch. Ask joe soap off the street to hit you and see how you do against that "pugilistic form". If you restrict yourself to dealing exclusively with shomen, yokomen etc strikes then you are limiting the effectiveness of your training. If you are really training for the street as you mentioned in another thread then your opponents should be punching you like someone would on the street.

on the street why roll on thr ground with an attacker when his mates are ready to kick the heart and soul out of you?

A common misconception about MMA people. I would never go to ground on the street, but if I find myself there I want to escape and get out of a bad situation. What if you slip, are rugby tackled etc. What then? A big fat dude is sitting on your chest punching you- what then?

new is not alwats best either.

True. But the art with a checking mechanism that helps to weed out all the rubbish through competition will always continue to evolve and improve. Anything else stagnates.

THE HOLY GRAIL OF KEEPING IT ALL TOGETHER IS WHAT WE ARE ALL LOOKING FOR .IS IT NOT?

Not too sure what you mean here?

SORRY BUT SPORT AND LIFE SURRORT DONT MIX.

Again not too sure what youre getting at. Are you arguing the difference between street and sport training?

Cheers
Colum

BACK TO BASICS

Sorry to confuse Col,
My pointwas that gloves would hinder the way I operate -grasping with open hands and using "chin na" with Aikido .
No I am not a super man or am I untouchable (have the scars to prove that)!
OK GOT YOUR POINT ABOUT THE GLOVES TAKING THE BRUNT OF THE FORCE

My old sensi Andy Barron used "Defence with in the Palace walls" which got you slaped around if you were not trying your best it also made you preety sharp too. Ever hear of it ?
As for life support well I try to explain my point , I have been shown the business end of a shotgun ,had needles pulled on me and one guy tell me that he had a shooter and wanted my car! that pretty much get as real as you can get .AiKiDo did not cover those ( might have missed the class ) no gym could get close either - but the training with old red (SENSI BARRON)gave me the good sense not to turn green or brown . My point here is that life is not sport hence no secound round .GET IT WRONG AND GET THE LIFE SUPPORT YOUR SELF.
The holy grail? Bruce like you broke with tradition and forged a head I choose a different path with the systems and forms that work for me .seeking a way to stay alive in the tough worrld of to day

I am not trying to put your skill down or your chosen art ,just to differ and say that aikido works and having shown some ITF dans how to stop a attack with some basic moves( situation permitting).they found it helpful

You choose not to remember some of the basics do you not ?
Size weight and strenght are nothing , the outer point of fofce from an attack is its weakest! and its ther that you capture and spiral the controling ki to end the attack, the choice of how to end the attack is still in the hands of the defender BUT ai ki do has instilled the form of non aggresion in studentsand that needs to be put right. and only the ai ki do ka are the ones to change that by training not only with the traditional shomen etc

hope that this shed some light on the previous comments I made ,

pj

I am a plumber working around Dublin city Councils nice areas,and these are some of the things you get to face on a daily basis

columok

Pj, thanks for clearing the bits and pieces up!

My pointwas that gloves would hinder the way I operate -grasping with open hands and using "chin na" with Aikido .

You should try Vale Tudo or MMA gloves. I use Rogues myself and they allow fairly unrestricted use of the hands for grappling or palm strikes (or shomenuchi etc.) to allow you to train hard and train safe. You can find the gloves I use on ML SPORTS WEBSITE!! I went for blue to match those used in Pride Fighting Championship!

My old sensi Andy Barron used "Defence with in the Palace walls" which got you slaped around if you were not trying your best it also made you preety sharp too. Ever hear of it ?

Never heard of it but please explain!

As for life support well I try to explain my point , I have been shown the business end of a shotgun ,had needles pulled on me and one guy tell me that he had a shooter and wanted my car! that pretty much get as real as you can get .AiKiDo did not cover those ( might have missed the class ) no gym could get close either - but the training with old red (SENSI BARRON)gave me the good sense not to turn green or brown .

I agree that nothing can prepare you for guns etc. but I think having put yourself under emotional and psychological stress through pressure testing can give you some assistance in these situations. Otherwise the adrenaline will take over!

My point here is that life is not sport hence no secound round .GET IT WRONG AND GET THE LIFE SUPPORT YOUR SELF.

True. I think though that competitive training, with full resistance, best prepares you for the real deal. I think the best puncher in a combat situation is gonna be the boxer, the best kicker/kneer would be the Muay Thai guy etc. No one should be fooled into thinking that they are invincible though, as you said! Sparring shows me every day how vulnerable I am and reminds me how little I want to street fight!

BUT ai ki do has instilled the form of non aggresion in studentsand that needs to be put right. and only the ai ki do ka are the ones to change that by training not only with the traditional shomen etc

I would blame the second generation of Aikido instructors for this one. Ueshiba and his original students were all fighters. Fighting, often for their lives, enabled them to develop real fighting skills. They sparred. For example Kenji Tomiki,as you know, was an excellent Judo player. The aikido that they learnt was added onto years of fighting. I think that this is often forgotten by many Aikido people. They think that they can bypass this needed experience and just cut straight to the chase as such.


Cheers,

Colum O'Keeffe

Dyr

BACK TO BASICS wrote:

Sorry to confuse Col,
My pointwas that gloves would hinder the way I operate -grasping with open hands and using "chin na" with Aikido .
No I am not a super man or am I untouchable (have the scars to prove that)!
OK GOT YOUR POINT ABOUT THE GLOVES TAKING THE BRUNT OF THE FORCE

My old sensi Andy Barron used "Defence with in the Palace walls" which got you slaped around if you were not trying your best it also made you preety sharp too. Ever hear of it ?


You choose not to remember some of the basics do you not ?
Size weight and strenght are nothing , the outer point of fofce from an attack is its weakest! and its ther that you capture and spiral the controling ki to end the attack, the choice of how to end the attack is still in the hands of the defender BUT ai ki do has instilled the form of non aggresion in studentsand that needs to be put right. and only the ai ki do ka are the ones to change that by training not only with the traditional shomen etc

hope that this shed some light on the previous comments I made ,

pj

PJ, when did you train with Andy Barron and for how long? I could know you. I also know all of the people who were Andys senior students back then. I think they would generally have a different opinion on that training methodology to yours.

Colum PJs reference to "defence within the palace walls" is a paraphrase of the term "oshikiuchi" which most aikidoka would have heard in relation to aikijutsu. Allegedly AJJ but mostly hitting people with hammerfists while shouting a lot IIRC

Colm_OReilly

Size weight and strenght are nothing

So why are there weight classes in all the combat sports (Boxing, Muay Thai, Olympic Wrestling, Judo, MMA, Sub Wrestling) ?

You need a significant skill gap to be able to defeat a stronger/heavier opponent. When skill levels are close or the same size, strength and conditioning make a world of difference.

We seem to be getting very worked up on this thread. Would you like to meet up and train together sometime with us? We could discuss our training methods and practice them together. A year ago myself and Columok were engaged in a similar sort of argument on our college forums, and while we got pretty nasty on the forums when we met up in person we found out we weren't that dissimilar, and now we're great friends.

Wotcha think?

BACK TO BASICS

Bambi I trained under Andy for a couple of monthes back in 2000 just before Ballymun closed down AND THINGS GOT A BIT HAIRY ( iF YOU WERE THERE YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!)About the time Nigel done his arm in ,I gave Dec a bit of a slaping with the shini sticks first time out, young David suddenly grew a pair of brass ones and Noel was chucked out then.
Bambi woluld you be Irene or Noreen?
As for different opinions on Andys Style well --I got a scar about six inch long and a hernia directly from the man himself! SOME FACE SLAPPING because I handed over a bokken the wrong way ?Disagree all you want That is why Andy son got broad sided by Noel on the mat(and why noel got himself gated)

Colm would love to meet up! training is always a thing that grows from different encounters More clubs should open their doors to bring foward the level and quality of students. I am not getting heated on the points but I happen to be straight to the point, Just the way I am,(snafu) .
Will drop you an E -Mail Later in the week( one of the kids in and out of the hospital)
all the best pj

Sparks

You know, someone probably should point out at this stage that not every martial arts school is there purely to train people to beat the living snot out of each other and that only those who want to hurt other people need apply... otherwise, this thread (and the billion other repetitions of it that show up on a hundred other boards going right back to the first postings on rec.martial-arts) will probably convince them that martial arts are just thuggery refined, instead of being an excellent way to stay fit, agile, flexible and healthy well into old age; as well as being a wonderful way to develop mental focus and clarity of mind.

When it comes to "real life" and "on the street" situations, anyone who knows "the real deal" about such things will invariably tell you the same thing - running away is far safer, being skillful is no substitute for being lucky, and the best defence really is the miagi defence. There's a reason the best professional bodyguards in the world are quiet lads who almost never end up in a serious fight...