Should Under-18s be aloud in pubs?

gom

Should Under-18s be aloud in pubs?

I see that Minister O'Donoghue wants the law reversed so that Children can hang out with their parents in the pub. His reason. Pubs are losing business. Tourism is down. While I think it is not wise to have a blanket ban on under-18s in pubs it is also not the place for them to be. I can understand why the numbers of families are falling in pub attendence and I welcome it. Family restrauants are more suited to children in my opinion. The continent is used as an example by the Minister as to where families are heading. He sites the ban as the reason. I say they are heading there because its more or less the same price as a holiday in Ireland, once you get there its cheaper, its more likely to be sunny and it is generally a more child friendly atmosphere.

Do you think the ban should go

Sleipnir

No. All the knackers will be there till closing with their kids.
Pubs are not losing business because children are not allowed in pubs after nine, they are losing business because going to a pub is currently the most expensive thing you can do socially in Ireland.
300% markup on soft drinks in pubs? Well I wouldn't want to be buying them all night for my kids.

Trojan

Agreed with Sleipnir. The publicans can feck off with their whining and moaning about smoking and kids. As a fairly typical 25 year old guy I can safely say that the reason I and my friends don't go to the pub as much as we used to is down to the price of drinks, plain and simple.

spongebob

I was gonna agree with Gom till I saw Sleipnirs answers.

They should be allowed in pubs "UNDER STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" after 9PM . The Act would have to be amended to include that clause. Any deviation from "STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" and they are all out. That could be because the kids are running riot or because the parents are to pished to supervise.

I was in a pub last weekend where there were kids after 9. They were well behaved and welcome to be trhere in my opinion.

The big problem IS the price though. It will take a sub €3 pint of porter as standard to bring many people back. That would be the price just before the Euro came in IIRC .

M

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

No. All the knackers will be there till closing with their kids.
Pubs are not losing business because children are not allowed in pubs after nine, they are losing business because going to a pub is currently the most expensive thing you can do socially in Ireland.
300% markup on soft drinks in pubs? Well I wouldn't want to be buying them all night for my kids.

What about familys on holidays would you prefer that they left the kids unsupervised or let them enjoy part of our culture.

Also I'd rather 15 and 16 year olds were in the pubs with their parents than knacker drinking in some fields.

I think people need to take a reality check, this Nanny state is starting to really bug me.

grumpytrousers

Should Under-18s be aloud in pubs?

God no - they should be quiet. Less chance of 'em getting caught and chucked out, obviously!

Seriously - I don't think there's anything wrong with 'young folk' of a certain age being in a pub with responsible parents who are doing 'responsible drinking'. But we've all probably been in pubs where either
a) it's so crowded and full of adult a**eholes that you think 'this is no place for kids' or
b) it's run over by jug eared little tykes tanked to the gills on 7up and Salt'n'Vinegar crisps shouting their heads off and wanting money for the jukebox that you begin to wonder if the victorian child labour laws weren't such a bad idea

neither situation is ideal, and to be honest, it requires a subjective application of some kind of policy - probably the Licensee is in the best position to judge this. If he chooses to run a family friendly pub (and according to Zero O'Donoghue there's huge demand for this) kids should be allowed stay, but the atmosphere should be condusive to this. I suppose that's a guarded no then, to 2 for the price of 1 on Smirnoff Ice and Cocktail lists advertising Slippery Nipples.....

However - and perhaps I'm old fashioned - maybe a pub isn't the healthiest of places for kids to be. I realise that parents like a night out and away from the kids, but you know, sorry, if kids tend to be a pain in the hole to the rest of the punters in a pub then the parents should take the hint, bring the kids home and read them a bedtime story. Dammit, they can find a baby sitter and go drink when they're back at home!

Villain

In regards to the price I don't think people should discuss in regards to location. I mean I can buy a pint of Ale in my local for €3.10 I paid €3.90 for it in the Plaza Hotel in Killarney 2 weeks ago and I'm sure Dublin prices are higher in places. Not every publican is making huge profits, its wrong to accuse all publicans.

Sleipnir

Drunk people falling about the place? That's not culture.
They can experience our pub culture until 9 o'clock. Does the experience get much better after nine?
The problem with "UNDER STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" is that it will be the publican who decides that.
If a family of six are all drinking and the 4 kids are having a soft-drink at 300% mark up every thirty minutes I think the publicans will have a relaxed view on what "strict" really is.
how much of a pub's revenue came from under-18's after nine o'clock before the ban?
Not even half a percent I'd say.

The phrase "nanny-state" being bandied about non-stop is REALLY beginning to bug me.

seamus

As with most things, I think it's a case where it should be allowed, but only with a permit and a valid reason. That is, John who owns a restaurant runs a cabaret act at 9pm two nights a week, and a magic show at 9pm one night a week, can't have kids in the hall to see it because there's a bar there, and so many parents can't go. He should be allowed an exemption for those nights.

For standard pubs, no, no way in hell. Aside from a pub quiz, which are rarely held in pubs anymore, nobody has any good reason to have their child in a pub after 9pm.

Sleipnir

seamus wrote:

As with most things, I think it's a case where it should be allowed, but only with a permit and a valid reason. That is, John who owns a restaurant runs a cabaret act at 9pm two nights a week, and a magic show at 9pm one night a week, can't have kids in the hall to see it because there's a bar there, and so many parents can't go. He should be allowed an exemption for those nights.

For standard pubs, no, no way in hell. Aside from a pub quiz, which are rarely held in pubs anymore, nobody has any good reason to have their child in a pub after 9pm.

Yeah fine, I would agree with that.

I've seen a ten year old trying to get his father to stand up so that he could walk him home (that is, the ten year old could walk his father home) only to be told to F*** off.
I don't want to see it happen more.

spongebob

One of the arguments in FAVOUR of under 18s in pubs after 9PM is that many of the best Trad sessions are in pubs after 9PM which is where the young musicans learn from the older ones. It is a unique aspect of our culture which will suffer if the 9PM rule is applied to the letter.

While the large cities are deserts when it comes to proper Trad I think that any Guard enforcing the 9PM cutoff in Feakle or Milltown Malbay needs his head examined.

Again the parents should be there to supervise and give them a lift home so the "STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" clause should cover that eventuality too or else a 'Loco Parentis' clasue in the Act for Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann supervised events.

M

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

Drunk people falling about the place? That's not culture.
They can experience our pub culture until 9 o'clock. Does the experience get much better after nine?
The problem with "UNDER STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" is that it will be the publican who decides that.
If a family of six are all drinking and the 4 kids are having a soft-drink at 300% mark up every thirty minutes I think the publicans will have a relaxed view on what "strict" really is.
how much of a pub's revenue came from under-18's after nine o'clock before the ban?
Not even half a percent I'd say.

The phrase "nanny-state" being bandied about non-stop is REALLY beginning to bug me.

Drunk people falling around the place??? It's against the law to serve those people.

Come on Sleipnir thats a very sweeping statement to make, obviously there are pubs where there would be a large number of drunk people present, but there is a lot more pubs where there the number of Drunk people present is either very small or none at all.

When I was in Killarney 2 weeks ago I don't recall seeing anyone really drunk in any pub, I did however see some familys enjoying the traditional music.

Stark

Maybe extend it till they're allowed in till 10 or something. I can see the advantage to this idea as far as tourism is concerned. Irish kids on the other hand will have their whole lives to be crammed into ****holes and ripped off. Starting them off from a younger age will only further reinforce the already entrenched idea that "this is normal, this is adult life, this is all there is for fun". I mean how many of us saw our parents drinking at Christmas time and thought "so alcohol's what it takes to be grown up"?

Villain

Stark wrote:

Maybe extend it till they're allowed in till 10 or something. I can see the advantage to this idea as far as tourism is concerned. Irish kids on the other hand will have their whole lives to be crammed into ****holes and ripped off. Starting them off from a younger age will only further reinforce the already entrenched idea that "this is normal, this is adult life, this is all there is for fun". I mean how many of us saw our parents drinking at Christmas time and thought "so alcohol's what it takes to be grown up"?

There is nothing wrong with promoting sensible drinking, if people think that stopping kids from being in pubs after 9 is going to stop them drinking when they get older they are very much mistaken. Next thing they won't be allowed in at all, and what about weddings should a 17 year old be forced to leave his brother or sisters wedding after 9??

grumpytrousers

should a 17 year old be forced to leave his brother or sisters wedding after 9??

If his parents dance like mine do, then Yes. And he should be thankful...

Villain

lol Best point in this thread

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

Drunk people falling around the place??? It's against the law to serve those people.

Yeah, and it never happens right? That's why nobody in ireland is ever drunk, cos the publicans are looking after us and not thinking about their wallets.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

There is nothing wrong with promoting sensible drinking, if people think that stopping kids from being in pubs after 9 is going to stop them drinking when they get older they are very much mistaken. Next thing they won't be allowed in at all, and what about weddings should a 17 year old be forced to leave his brother or sisters wedding after 9??

Of course it won't stop them but it will help prevent normalizing drunkeness in young people's eyes.
There is no one cure and nobody says there is.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

Yeah, and it never happens right? That's why nobody in ireland is ever drunk, cos the publicans are looking after us and not thinking about their wallets.

Apolgies that was meant in a light hearted way, but yes it is the law and it should be enforced more.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

Of course it won't stop them but it will help prevent normalizing drunkeness in young people's eyes.
There is no one cure and nobody says there is.

No Responisble parenting and alcholol education in schools will help "prevent normalizing drunkeness in young people's eyes".

Sleipnir

And what about the other customers in the pub who don't have kids there?
They can drink until they can barely stand and the parents can't stop their kids seeing it.

gom

Mostly the main reason that FF want the ban reversed is the fact that the bulwork of the FF party - the Publician is in Dire straits with the smoking ban, child ban and stricter ID. Not to mention stricter closing times.

So instead of listen to citizens FF is listening to Special interests.
Nothing really changes in this country...

Villain

If they were responisble parents they would then leave also, its not brain science, and remember as I have already said there are few pubs where there are many customers so drunk they can barely stand up. It should be for the parents to decide not teh Government.

What would you say about a 17 year old having to leave his sisters or brothers wedding?

Sleipnir

gom wrote:

Mostly the main reason that FF want the ban reversed is the fact that the bulwork of the FF party - the Publician is in Dire straits with the smoking ban, child ban and stricter ID. Not to mention stricter closing times.

So instead of listen to citizens FF is listening to Special interests.
Nothing really changes in this country...

The publican is in dire straits because of stricter ID? Well, that's good then right
The publicans income from rip-offs was dropping before the smoking ban was implemented and the same applies for the child ban.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

If they were responisble parents they would then leave also, its not brain science, and remember as I have already said there are few pubs where there are many customers so drunk they can barely stand up. It should be for the parents to decide not teh Government.

What would you say about a 17 year old having to leave his sisters or brothers wedding?

Yeah, that would be great, but it's not reality.

To quote myself from above

I've seen a ten year old trying to get his father to stand up so that he could walk him home (that is, the ten year old could walk his father home) only to be told to F*** off.

gobby

I find this all very interesting.

I have been living in a small German town for the past 6 months or so. This town has no college and hence everybody who lives here is either under 18 or over 60 (give or take).

So I would have thought that the pubs would be very quiet. Not so. The legal age for drinking in Germany (maybe not all of Germany) is 16 for beer and 18 for spirits. Also, if there is someone under 16-18 on the premises then they have to leave after 12:00pm.

The pubs here (one or two especially) do be jammed with young drinkers. If this situation was ever allowed in Ireland then there would be chaos!

Also, I cant understand how the pubs here stay open. They are so cheap and one of them has promotions on almost every night! For a pint of really, really, really good beer here it is on average €2.50.

We have so many restrictions on drinking in Ireland and there are so few restrictions here, why is it that in Ireland we get so many alcohol related probelms but, in general, on the continent, where one is allowed to drink on the street and yound people can drink in pubs there doesnt seem to be the same problems whatsoever!?

Its mad!

grumpytrousers

We have so many restrictions on drinking in Ireland and there are so few restrictions here, why is it that in Ireland we get so many alcohol related probelms but, in general, on the continent, where one is allowed to drink on the street and yound people can drink in pubs there doesnt seem to be the same problems whatsoever!?

It's something deeply ingrained in the national psyche. No amount of legislation will change the fact that too many of us enjoy drinking too much too often.

I include myself in this, btw...

Mighty_Mouse

I really don't think a pub is a place to be having a child at night. If your a tourist. Go out at seven and then feck off home with your kids at nine.

I feel sorry for those people who do the responsible thing by forking out for a baby sitter only to be surrounded by kids when they go down to their local for a quiet one.

Again, its a bit like the smoking. Dragging up bizaar exceptions to the rule doesn't take away from the fact that the genreal ideal of the proposed legislation is sound.

Surely theres a way to deal with bizarre exceptions rather than throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

There are extremes both ways. I'm sure everyone has seen parents sloshed out of their heads with red-faced tired cranky kids running around or screaming for "taytos" at 11o'clock in pubs.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

Yeah, that would be great, but it's not reality.

To quote myself from above

Whats not the reality??

I'm not saying cases that you gave an example of don't happen but there are few and far between.

The government should be more worried about the HUGE numbers of teenagers from 12 to 17 that are drinking in fields around the country everyday, but then again that would involve making some real changes. Having under 18's in pubs after 9 is a very minor issued compared to other problems.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

Whats not the reality??

I'm not saying cases that you gave an example of don't happen but there are few and far between.

The government should be more worried about the HUGE numbers of teenagers from 12 to 17 that are drinking in fields around the country everyday, but then again that would involve making some real changes. Having under 18's in pubs after 9 is a very minor issued compared to other problems.

I disagree, I think it's a very important issue and not one that we should just say "ah, it's grand" to.
They are not "few and far between" and anyway, if it is as rare as you think, allowing kids into pubs until closing time would only increase those cases. Or do you honestly believe it wouldn't?

You're right, they should be worried about teens drinking in fields and it is again due to lack of enforcement that they are able to purchase booze (which is why I am in favour of permanently labelling booze with the address of the premises it was purchased from).
However, allowing teens in pubs until closing time will again normalise drunkeness and also make booze appear more accessible and desireable.


You're idea is of a happy-clappy family all sitting down with the kids on their parents laps smiling while they listen to trad which is very nice, lovely in fact but it's not worth having some other kid having to call an ambulance because their mother or father is unconscious in the gutter.

Actually, a couple of years ago in Bray, I did have a pair of kids asking me to call an ambulance because they couldn't wake their mother up. When I checked her she was completely p*ssed. And that was at 10:30.

You explain to those kids that the reason they can't wake their mother up is because the publicans are up the swanny and need more cash.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

I disagree, I think it's a very important issue and not one that we should just say "ah, it's grand" to.
They are not "few and far between" and anyway, if it is as rare as you think, allowing kids into pubs until closing time would only increase those cases. Or do you honestly believe it wouldn't?

You're right, they should be worried about teens drinking in fields and it is again due to lack of enforcement that they are able to purchase booze (which is why I am in favour of permanently labelling booze with the address of the premises it was purchased from).
However, allowing teens in pubs until closing time will again normalise drunkeness and also make booze appear more accessible and desireable.


You're idea is of a happy-clappy family all sitting down with the kids on their parents laps smiling while they listen to trad which is very nice, lovely in fact but it's not worth having some other kid having to call an ambulance because their mother or father is unconscious in the gutter.

Actually, a couple of years ago in Bray, I did have a pair of kids asking me to call an ambulance because they couldn't wake their mother up. When I checked her she was completely p*ssed. And that was at 10:30.

You explain to those kids that the reason they can't wake their mother up is because the publicans are up the swanny and need more cash.

In These cases the Publicans should be reported and their Licence Renewal challenged, if the excisting laws were enforced in relation to serving drunk people there would be a lot less problems. I agree with your labelling idea, but they would be easily removed and the majority of the time the drink is sold to an adult who passes it along to the teenagers.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

In These cases the Publicans should be reported and their Licence Renewal challenged, if the excisting laws were enforced in relation to serving drunk people there would be a lot less problems.

Yeah but, in reality, that doesn't actually happen. I agree that we would be better off if existing laws were enforced but at the moment, they aren't.

Allowing under-18's into pubs would not improve the situation, it would only make it worse.

Villain

Well we'l just have to agree to disagree, but I think it's a harsh law that prevents Familys on holidays from bringing their children to trad session or even go to the bar for a drink after a meal and especially stopping under 18's from attending family weddings after 9pm.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

Well we'l just have to agree to disagree.

I don't agree to that.

Villain

OK 12 rounds sound ok to you

chill

Sleipnir wrote:

However, allowing teens in pubs until closing time will again normalise drunkeness and also make booze appear more accessible and desireable.

I so NOT buy into this obsession with alcohol that so many Irish people sem to share. And the cause is the history of obsessive legilation and prescriptive rules that govern it.

We need to get away from these stupid and overbearing rules about how we DRINK and move to laws governing how we BEHAVE.
There is nothing wrong with alcohol. What is wrong is how a very few people abuse it, and it's about time we stopped governing the vast vast majority of our lives because of the behaviour of this few.

There should no NO closing or opening times for pubs. Alcohol should be available in all places that serve food and we need to allow parents to bring their children into pubs at whatever time they chose. We need to get children back into pubs to recreate the family atmosphere that most of Europe enjoys, whene the presence of children has a normalising affect on bad behaviour instead of what we have now - pubs full of 18-25 year olds behaving like preteens and getting as drunk as they can before closing time.

You're idea is of a happy-clappy family all sitting down with the kids on their parents laps smiling while they listen to trad which is very nice, lovely in fact but it's not worth having some other kid having to call an ambulance because their mother or father is unconscious in the gutter.

Well actually yes it is !
It's about time we stopped preventing thousands of decent happy families enjoying their lives just because one family is disfunctional.

Actually, a couple of years ago in Bray, I did have a pair of kids asking me to call an ambulance because they couldn't wake their mother up. When I checked her she was completely p*ssed. And that was at 10:30.

So what !!!!! This is a meaningless story. We cnanot allow one dumbass mother to drive a whole country's drinking laws.

You explain to those kids that the reason they can't wake their mother up is because the publicans are up the swanny and need more cash.

I'll happily explain to them that the reason is their mother is SICK !!!

grumpytrousers

Are you suggesting that people should take responsibility for their own actions. You are a SICK AND TWISTED liberal...

naw - you're kinda right. i mean, in the broader 'alcohol policy' debate, pubs should be open all hours and if people choose to drink themselves silly, fine - go for it. It'll happen for a few months, and then people will slowly realise that they've only so much money and so much time, and that work needs to be done.

My sole reason for not being pro 'kids in pubs' is that

a) they annoy me if they get rowdy (and face it, if a publican won't challenge drunken rowdy adults, he's certainly not going to challenge a 12 year old armed with a gameboy)
b) pubs are for adults. playgrounds are for children. there are certain places for overlap, but the pub isn't one.

You want to bond with your kids? Bring them to a football match. Go for a walk. Bring them to the cinema. Read them a story. there's oodles of other things, but bringing 'em to a place where talking bollocks is an artform IMHO isn't one of 'em!

Sleipnir

Irish people couldn't handle it, it's a simple as that. It's a shame, but it's the truth.
Opening pubs 24x7 to all and sundry across the country would be a disaster.
Good idea,
"Do it, don't think about the consequences"

I can see you've really thought this through.

The "meaningless story" as you put it, is an example okay?
Did I say we should legislate on this one instance alone?
I wonder would it be meaningless if it was you who had to try to wake your own mother up from the gutter?
I wonder was the experience "meaningless" for her children.

It's about time we stopped preventing thousands of decent happy families enjoying their lives just because one family is disfunctional.

"Preventing" families from "enjoying their lives" ?
What the hell are you on about? Is this the Waltons forum?
Not being allowed into pubs after nine prevents people from "enjoying their lives" ?

Gimme a break.

gobby

chill wrote:

...We need to get away from these stupid and overbearing rules about how we DRINK and move to laws governing how we BEHAVE.
There is nothing wrong with alcohol. What is wrong is how a very few people abuse it, and it's about time we stopped governing the vast vast majority of our lives because of the behaviour of this few...

Have to agree with you there chill. It is so easy to get alcohol on the continent. And everybody does just that but there is rarely any bullsh*t...

chill

grumpytrousers wrote:

Are you suggesting that people should take responsibility for their own actions. You are a SICK AND TWISTED liberal...

My sole reason for not being pro 'kids in pubs' is that ...

a) they annoy me if they get rowdy (and face it, if a publican won't challenge drunken rowdy adults, he's certainly not going to challenge a 12 year old armed with a gameboy)
b) pubs are for adults. playgrounds are for children. there are certain places for overlap, but the pub isn't one.

You want to bond with your kids? Bring them to a football match. Go for a walk. Bring them to the cinema. Read them a story. there's oodles of other things, but bringing 'em to a place where talking bollocks is an artform IMHO isn't one of 'em!

No offense intended but this is a large reason for the present mess. We seem to have developed a weird anti-children attitute in this country. So many people are so tolerent of drunks, yet are so quick to whinge about a few kids having a nice time. Lighten up !

Pubs should NOT be seen as places without children, and if you want to get away from children there will always be places that have less than others. In my experience in Europe this is the way it happens.

if we had a more child-friendly attitude we would have a lot less drink problems imho.

chill

Sleipnir wrote:

Irish people couldn't handle it, it's a simple as that. It's a shame, but it's the truth.

No. It's a complete myth.

Opening pubs 24x7 to all and sundry across the country would be a disaster.
Good idea,
"Do it, don't think about the consequences"

On the contrary my whole point is that people SHOULD take the consequences. We need to shift the legal control from drinking to behaviour !

I can see you've really thought this through.

Thank you. After a lifetime in pubs and a lot of time on the continent - I believe I have.

The "meaningless story" as you put it, is an example okay?
Did I say we should legislate on this one instance alone?
I wonder would it be meaningless if it was you who had to try to wake your own mother up from the gutter?
I wonder was the experience "meaningless" for her children.

No. But it is unacceptable to restrict the enjoyment by the rest of the population just because of a tiny minority of ill people.

"Preventing" families from "enjoying their lives" ?
What the hell are you on about? Is this the Waltons forum?
Not being allowed into pubs after nine prevents people from "enjoying their lives" ?

Well actually yes it is. And in many pubs it is not nine... it is 6pm.

MANY people on holidays here are prevented from enjoying their evenings because they cannot bring their children into pubs and cannot have babysitters because they know no one here.

I do not see why the government has a right to tell me when I am on holidays or on a long weekend why I cannot being my 10 year old daughter with me into a pub at 10pm or 11pm to meet with our friends and neighbours.

Yes it DOES prevent me from enjoying my life the way I CHOOSE to enjoy it.

ionapaul

gobby wrote:

Have to agree with you there chill. It is so easy to get alcohol on the continent. And everybody does just that but there is rarely any bullsh*t...

Those damn continentals can enjoy all the alcohol they like and it won't change the fact that Irish people and society have a fundamental problem with drinking to excess! Drinking is regulated in this country because we drink too much, not the other way around. Change our dependance/addiction to alcohol, and we will no longer need to regulate alcohol consumption as much...considering that alcoholism/addictive tendencies are thought often passed down from generation to generation via genetic heritage (as well as being 'taught' to children by parents/role models) and you can see this is an uphill struggle.

Ireland already has enough of a problem with drink without allowing teenagers into a bar. You see, i'm for the gradual destruction of the pub culture, and keeping children out of pubs is a very good step in the right direction. We already have smoking bans in place, lets move forward and apply the same to alcohol, for all ages.

Can anyone honestly tell me that a pub is a good environment for children to expierence? I certainly don't think so, and I spent enough time in pubs as a teenager/child to appreciate that.

ionapaul

chill wrote:

No. But it is unacceptable to restrict the enjoyment by the rest of the population just because of a tiny minority of ill people.
...
Yes it DOES prevent me from enjoying my life the way I CHOOSE to enjoy it.

That is a consequence of living in a society. You could always live somewhere with less rules and regulations!

It is NOT unacceptable* for the government to impose universal rules and regulations to protect a minority, or protect the majority from a minority. If assault rifles were legal, most who would own one would behave in a responsible manner...however, it is the 1% that would go on murderous rampages that 'restrict' the rest of us from owning them...and I for one am glad that the government is here to inforce such a restriction! Sorry for taking such an extreme example, but the point is clear. If everyone were to live their lives the way they choose to, society would break down into anarchy.

*sorry for the double negatives

gobby

ionapaul wrote:

Those damn continentals can enjoy all the alcohol they like and it won't change the fact that Irish people and society have a fundamental problem with drinking to excess! Drinking is regulated in this country because we drink too much, not the other way around. Change our dependance/addiction to alcohol, and we will no longer need to regulate alcohol consumption as much...considering that alcoholism/addictive tendencies are thought often passed down from generation to generation via genetic heritage (as well as being 'taught' to children by parents/role models) and you can see this is an uphill struggle.

Good point but at the same time, restricting people isn't going to stop them from doing what they want to do. Why bother restricting people from entering pubs. Its not going to fix any fundamental problems.

We do have a lot of alcohol related problems but I feel that placing restrictions on peoples access to alcohol is not going to fix anything. People can still get it. We are a country that 'bends' rules. Why cant we educate ourselves so that these problems wont occur in the next generations? Fu*k the current alcoholics. Fix the current generation and let the fu*ked one die out.

Deleted User wrote:

Ireland already has enough of a problem with drink without allowing teenagers into a bar. You see, i'm for the gradual destruction of the pub culture, and keeping children out of pubs is a very good step in the right direction. We already have smoking bans in place, lets move forward and apply the same to alcohol, for all ages.

Why destroy our pub culture!? Its part of our identity. Why not fix it, put some effort into educating the younger generations. The smoking ban is a step in the right direction for sure. But I dont think we should ban alcohol. Why not ban smoking outright? Surely thats a greater evil. (I'm not in favour of that btw, just a point)

Deleted User wrote:

Can anyone honestly tell me that a pub is a good environment for children to expierence? I certainly don't think so, and I spent enough time in pubs as a teenager/child to appreciate that.

No, a pub is not such a great place for children at the moment. But I think that can change.

ferdi

appologies to Sleipnir for stealing his argument but....this is an email i sent to this man , John O'Donoghue TD:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you with regard to your planned law revision which will allow children go to the pub with their parents because you say that Pubs are losing business because of this Law on top of the smoking ban. Pubs are not losing business because children are not allowed in pubs after nine, they are losing business because going to a pub is currently the most expensive thing you can do socially in Ireland. Please address the massive mark up which publicans place on their drink before you put children back into this adult environment.

Yours faithfully,

Ferdinand Beck


if you want to send him one his address is ministersoffice@dast.gov.ie

Why destroy our pub culture!? Its part of our identity. Why not fix it, put some effort into educating the younger generations. The smoking ban is a step in the right direction for sure. But I dont think we should ban alcohol. Why not ban smoking outright? Surely thats a greater evil. (I'm not in favour of that btw, just a point)

Why Not? Our pub culture is already dying a bit due to the cost of drink. Why not go a step further and reduce it more. You see, I view alcohol as being worse than Smoking. I do both, and I now agree totally with the smoking ban. I'd like to see the same for alcohol. While drink has the potential to used in moderation, Irish people as a society has a greater history and inclination to abuse it. Lets face it, smoking was banned for our health. Drinking does as much damage to our health, and causes plenty of crime in itself.

No, a pub is not such a great place for children at the moment. But I think that can change.

sure. If you take away the alcohol from the place.

gobby

Deleted User wrote:

Why Not? Our pub culture is already dying a bit due to the cost of drink. Why not go a step further and reduce it more. You see, I view alcohol as being worse than Smoking. I do both, and I now agree totally with the smoking ban. I'd like to see the same for alcohol. While drink has the potential to used in moderation, Irish people as a society has a greater history and inclination to abuse it. Lets face it, smoking was banned for our health. Drinking does as much damage to our health, and causes plenty of crime in itself.

Its true, unfortunatly that so many people abuse alcohol in Ireland but do you realistically think that that would work. I know that many people thought the smoking ban would not work but I think that a ban on drinking would cause just a little more upset. Can you imagine the vinters reaction!?

Drink in moderation is fantastic! We just have to figure out how to moderate its use I guess.

Whenever I tell any of my German mates about the closing times of the pubs in Ireland they are always shocked. I think something could maybe be done about this. People end up buying a rake load of drinks coming up to closing time. Closing time here is... well, I'm not even sure. You leave when you are tired! I dunno... There has to be a way to stop all the drunken crazyness.

Also, when people are really drunk here, most of them dont feel the need to kick the crap out of someone.

AngelofFire

Of course they should be allowed.Pubs aren`t only about drinking they are a major social asset in this country.Theres nothing wrong with parents bringing kids to pubs on a sunday for 2 or 3 hours for a meal and few drinks provided that the parents drink sensibly.The department of family and social affairs already has laws in place to prevent alcoholic parents from dragging their kids around pubs until closing time, pubs have regulations to keep children under control.With the smoking ban now introduced,rish to childrens health and respiration systems is no longer an issue.

Duckjob

gobby wrote:

Why destroy our pub culture!? Its part of our identity. Why not fix it, put some effort into educating the younger generations.

Here, here!

At the end of the day, it should be up to individual publicans, not the government to maintain a policy on who they want on their premises. Publicans will have a natural preference themselves, according to their location and the demographic of their target market.


As to the annoyance factor, consider the following:

(A) Listening to a kid running around the general area I'm in, enjoying themselves, but making a bit of noise.

or

(B)
- Having some drunken arsehole I don't know from Adam drench me with beery gob as he shouts highly opinionated, but completely non-sensical drunken bollocks in my ear.
- Having to pretend to listen and keep quite even though he's talking complete arse, because if I argue back, he'll either see it as a debate and NEVER leave, or else decide to teach me a lesson for not agreeing with his
highly opinionated non-sensical drunken bollocks.
- Getting drink spilt all over me because he's rendered himself completely incapable of physical coardination of any kind.
- When the sheeiteclub I'm in plays the national anthem at the end of the night (IMO equivelant to wiping ones hole with the tricolor) , watching him jump-up, then fall over, and then stagger up again and salute, then turn around and get stroppy with me because I'm not doing the same. "Yes, you fine specimen of fenian warriordom, you"


If it was down to a choice, I'd choose the kid everytime, at least he's not invading my personal space. FFS, I WAS that kid once.

Some parents are responsible. They just want to bring their kids into pubs for a meal and a have a pint for themselve at the same time. Where's the harm in that? Granted, other parents are irresponsible assholes, but disallowing them from bringing their children into pub premises won't make them more responsible, they'll just go off home and be irresponsible there instead. Will the experience of the chidren in question be much different? I don't think so.


The traditional notion of the Irish pub as a fun sociable place where families went to engage in talk and laugher, music and dance has been hijacked and cheapened by the 'beer-sheep' of the country to mean somewhere you go to skull back 16 pints and a rake of shorts, then score as many people as possible before pissing, puking and passing out on public streets.

I don't any other country, except maybe the UK, which has a more immature attitude towards alcohol as we have in this country. Makes me weary....

Sleipnir

chill wrote:

No. It's a complete myth.

You're kidding right?
Tell me you don't honestly believe that the international reputation the Irish have attained over many years for Olympic drinking is a myth?
It's simply not true that we're like that?

Stand outside Annabel's when it shuts on Saturday night and tell me we have have wonderful self-control when it comes to boozing.

chill wrote:

Well actually yes it is. And in many pubs it is not nine... it is 6pm.

The 6 p.m. deadline is implemented by the publican in question. I wonder why a publican would choose to implement it earlier than 2100?
Possibly they don't want kids in there after 6? Strange...what possible reason could they have for doing that with all the happy, smiling families singing cum-bah-ya around the fireplace.

chill wrote:

I do not see why the government has a right to tell me when I am on holidays or on a long weekend why I cannot being my 10 year old daughter with me into a pub at 10pm or 11pm to meet with our friends and neighbours.

Because other people in the pub don't want your kid running around shouting and being a nuisance while the parents get drunk.
A 10 year old should be in bed at that time anyway.What kind of parent would keep their kids up till after 11pm so they could continue getting boozed-up?