[Article] Dublin Interconnector

Hecate

CIE challenge to Metro for new Dublin rail link

MARTIN FITZPATRICK

CIE has handed the Government a rail network plan for greater Dublin which promises an underground rail system in the city centre, along with an electrified rail link to Dublin Airport, at a price that's €700m less than the proposed Metro system.

In what's effectively a challenge to Padraic White's Railway Procurement Agency, the CIE document says that it can link the Irish Financial Services Centre to St Stephen's Green and Heuston Station, plus provide a Dart link to the airport, at a price 30 per cent cheaper than the more limited project by the Metro promoters.

The plan, delivered to the Department of Transport in the past week, makes the case for a €3.4bn rail investment programme that, within 12 years, would give a four-fold increase in rail passenger traffic; would offer more flexible and reliable commuter and inter-city travel; would give superior access to Dublin city centre - and would not require any increase in the annual subvention from the State.

The plan from CIE's Iarnrod Eireann offshoot, throws the whole debate about the Metro into the melting pot once again.

The Metro idea has had a highly controversial history, since it was first mooted a few years ago.

Originally priced by the Rail Procurement Agency at €4.8bn, the project planned to drive an overland rail system from the old CIE depot at Broadstone to Dublin Airport through Glasnevin. And from Broadstone underground to St Stephen's Green in the city centre.

The RPA came under strong pressure over its original costings and eventually scaled back its estimates to €3.4bn. The RPA was further embarrassed when a Spanish expert suggested it could be produced, using techniques employed in Madrid, for as little as €1.7bn.

However, the Oireachtas Committee on Transport gave its green light to the project in the early summer, based on a figure of €2.5bn.

The CIE plan says the State transport organisation would build an interconnector tunnel linking the Dart at Spencer Dock and would drive under the Liffey to Pearse Station, then onto St Stephen's Green where another station would be built, then onto High Street in the Liberties with another station, and then onto Heuston. The total cost of this underground rail system would be €1.3bn. And it could be completed before the end of the decade.

CIE says it would also build a northern extention to the Dart that would cost €300m if its finishing station at the airport was over ground, and €400m if it was obliged to build an underground station.

The combination of the two projects suggests a cost of €1.7bn, compared to the €2.5bn mooted by the RPA.

The broader rail plan submitted by Iarnrod Eireann, which will cost €3.4bn in total, suggests a comprehensive widening of the rail networks in an arc spreading out to Maynooth and Kildare and north to Balbriggan.

Much of the Dart electrified rail system will serve these areas, if the Government approves the plans.

The more immediate development would be the opening up of the Spencer Dock station and a new service from Kildare, using the Phoenix Park tunnel. By 2007 the company hopes that it will have facilities to produce a 400 per cent increase in commuter capacity from Kildare.

That looks like a neat idea, and a practical one at that. Much more sane than the current plan for a metro from the airport, which connects with nothing except the luas green line.

One problem though if they want to run all those kildare trains etc through it, wouldnt they have to electrify all the lines currently served by the diesel arrows? I dont know about you but from a safety point of view, running diesel trains through a long tunnel under the city centre doesnt seem like such a good idea (especially when you have underground stations), and its exactly the type of thing the hysterical anti-rail elements in this country latch onto to shoot projects like this down...

John R

The plan does include electrification.

thejollyrodger

The CIE plan says the State transport organisation would build an interconnector tunnel linking the Dart at Spencer Dock and would drive under the Liffey to Pearse Station, then onto St Stephen's Green where another station would be built, then onto High Street in the Liberties with another station, and then onto Heuston. The total cost of this underground rail system would be €1.3bn. And it could be completed before the end of the decade

they should get the go ahead for this part in the morning!!

Andrew Duffy

running diesel trains through a long tunnel under the city centre

The newest Arrows (2900s) are designed for use underground. They have the lowest emmissions of any diesel train in production apparently, along with things like front exits and other safety stuff. IÉ has been planning this tunnel for about ten years, so the Arrows were ordered with it in mind. Of course, eventually the Maynooth and Kildare lines will be electrified.

P11 Comms

Andrew Duffy wrote:

The newest Arrows (2900s) are designed for use underground. They have the lowest emmissions of any diesel train in production apparently, along with things like front exits and other safety stuff. IÉ has been planning this tunnel for about ten years, so the Arrows were ordered with it in mind. Of course, eventually the Maynooth and Kildare lines will be electrified.

The new regional railcars I have heard on the grapevine will also be able to use the Inteconnector as well so trains from Galway and Sligo will be able to call at all the underground stations in the city centre.

I was talking to an engineer at Parson Brinkerhoff, the people who have done the design for the Interconnector and the underground stations in the city centre will be so well ventilated with the latest technologhy to constantly measure the air quality and compensate accordingly.

This Interconnector is so well planned and thought out compared to the Airport "Bit of an oul" Metro that is this Irish government chooses to spend €2.5 billion on a single liner route from Stephens Green to the Dublin Airport which only connects with the LUAS at one point, over that of the fully intergrated Interconnector (for a cost €700m less btw) it will rank as the biggest mistake made in the history of urban public transport anywhere on earth - the Airport "Bit of an oul" Metro project is so off the wall in what it delivers that it is simply obscene to even consider it should be built at the expense of the Interconnector. Throw in the park tunnel route and you get and you get the start an orbital inner heavy rail metro for a mere €7 million extra.

The Inteconnector, some facts:

Irish Rail already has the carraiges, staff, signalling, workshops and will be operational from day one and will serve the entire Leinster region bringing in people from as far away as Athlone, Longford, Dundalk and Goery and passing them at speed through central Dublin at a rate of 60,000 per hour on DART, Arrow and Intercity Services. Tunnelling will take place from the old freight yards at Heuston and East Wall - out of sight and out of mind and with little or no disruption to road traffic, rail services or city centre business.

The Airport Metro:

Everything will have to be ordered, commisioned and a new workshops, staff to operate and run though the one part of the country with LOWEST car ownership rates in the entire nation. And they are calling this a public transport solution! The Airport Metro so utterly stinks of BertieBowlism-mentality and would appear to be designed more to impress tourists and EU technocrats arriving at Dublin Airport (it does not even serve Swords!) rather than the people of Dublin and it's surrounding region. It is to the East a big a joke and an almost pointless display of tokenism in public transport waste as the Western Rail Corridor would have been in the West.

Dublin could do with a Metro - but not this current RPA joke, The Interconnector must come first - otherwise we have really lost the plot in this country.

for more information on the potential disaster which is the Airport "bit of an oul" Metro visit: www.platform11.org

sliabh

Hecate wrote:

That looks like a neat idea, and a practical one at that. Much more sane than the current plan for a metro from the airport, which connects with nothing except the luas green line.
QUOTE]

I don't understand this obsession with joining rail stations. It's fine if you are a person on an intercity train wanting to go from Limerick to Belfast without leaving stations but the purpose of the transport network for Dublin is to serve commuters. The Dart link to the airport will not serve commuters. It runs from the airport east and connects with the Dart. Wonderful, but that's through the flight path for the airport and there is limited housing there.

The metro though will do the suburbs between the Royal canal and the airport (including DCU), the airport and then on to swords. This is where the people are and these are the ones that want to get out of their cars when they are travelling around the city. I know. I live with my girlfriend and we are now about to get rid of one of our cars since the Luas opened.

Take a look at the map of Dublin that shows the rail lines. The interconnector runs pretty much east/west along the line of the Royal canal. The Dart runs north/south along the coast. There is nearly a third of the city to the north west of these lines that has nothing now, and will have the metro running right up the middle of it when it is built (because the political reality is that this government will not in a million years give 3bn to CIE). The proposed Dart to Airport will not provide the same level of service. The recent consultants report said the same thing:

"If the project objective is to provide a rail link between the Airport and the city centre, then that objective can be fulfilled much more cheaply by opting for the Iarnrod Éireann DART option... However, if the objective of the Metro project is to build the first link in a major infrastructural undertaking designed to solve Dublin transport problems, then the Metro project has undoubted advantages.

Mass transport to be effective is about population densities. And that means the once a day train from Westport is never going to run underground into the city when a there is a train load of commuters to move across the city instead

P11 Comms

Mass transport to be effective is about population densities. And that means the once a day train from Westport is never going to run underground into the city when a there is a train load of commuters to move across the city instead

I think you are missing the whole point of the Interconnector and what it delivers. To quote someone on the p11 message board and summed up the Interconnector perfectly...

"If you went to Heuston and asked just about any rail commuter what they would like the most common answer would be a proper rail link to the city centre, Stephens Green I suggest would be central and covers the majority of civil servants and the main business districts as well as TCD (15000 students 2500 staff). Spencer Dock via the Park tunnel will benefit some commuters (IFSC staff) but not all since it lacks intergration, After that they most likely want proper integration, the current state of affairs even post Luas will be a slow 20kph crawl into Connolly, better than the bus yes but not a touch on a train in a tunnel piling along at 40/50mph. Interconnector gives fewer changes and faster services, end to end journey times are a key factor here, regardless of how great your system is every change costs at least 3 minutes possibly more and adds a further point of failure into the system

Spencer Dock via the interconnector keeps everyone happy, it also means,

Tallaght/Dundrum->Airport or Heuston/Kildare/Drogheda one change
Kildare->Stephens Green/Pearse/Spencer Dock/Malaide/Drogheda no change
Kildare->Southside Dart line or Maynooth one change
Southside Dart->Maynooth via Pearse Tara Connolly no change
Any suburban station->Airport at most one change
Howth->Bray one change
Any suburban station (Rail or Luas) to City Centre (Pearse or Stephens Green) no changes
Any suburban rail station to any other at most one change (What happens at Howth junction is dependant on 4 track on the northside)

For convience you can't really fault that, only outer suburban ie 30 miles + terminate at Heuston and Pearse but they still benefit with much better connections, even then they can still reach the airport or any other city centre station with one change at most

Interconnctor is backed by IE, the DTO, Platform 11, and various political parties, the surveys have been done, the consulants have given there report and everyone agrees that it will work. IE point out that they will end up carrying a massive number of extra commuters but will require no increase in subvention from the Government."

Hecate

Tallaght/Dundrum->Airport or Heuston/Kildare/Drogheda one change
Kildare->Stephens Green/Pearse/Spencer Dock/Malaide/Drogheda no change
Kildare->Southside Dart line or Maynooth one change
Southside Dart->Maynooth via Pearse Tara Connolly no change
Any suburban station->Airport at most one change
Howth->Bray one change
Any suburban station (Rail or Luas) to City Centre (Pearse or Stephens Green) no changes
Any suburban rail station to any other at most one change (What happens at Howth junction is dependant on 4 track on the northside)

Can't argue with that. Integration is the key word and theres the reason why everyone should be obsessed with it. Theres absolutly no point in building an underground from the airport to stephens green if all it does is take the tourists to their hotels. Meanwhile someone wanting to go to killarney has to walk all the way to heuston station... yeah that'll work :rolleyes:

Like all great ideas, this one is simple.

sliabh

The problem is that it is focused on connecting up the existing service (which is a good thing, don't get me wrong) rather than bringing rail lines to new people. The only new link here is the one to the airport.

But the metro will bring a whole swathe of new commuters onto a major public transport line (from DCU north through to Swords). That is not going to happen with the interconnector. And integrated with the Luas that provdes a north south link through the city for those of us that don't live on the coast. And it's the sort of people that can't afford the 500k for homes with a sea view that really need a decent metro/rail system in Dublin.

Changing between lines is not really a problem. I am working in Munich three days a week at the moment. It would generally be regarded as having a joined up public transport network. It's 2 metro/u-bahn lines and a suburban rail run the office where I am working. I have made comperable journeys when travelling to offices in London from the airport as well.

At the end of the day it probably all comes down to priorities. It depends on exactly what you want your public transport system to do.

thejollyrodger

This P11 Lobbyist seems to have a sound idea or two. Anyone with a crayon can see that the interconnector is a excellent idea and the government should put up the cash for it in the next budget. The only real problem is the connection to the Airport. A metro underground tunnel sounds nice but how about extending the Dart to the Airport and on to Swords, twin track job

sliabh

Hecate wrote:

Can't argue with that. Integration is the key word and theres the reason why everyone should be obsessed with it. Theres absolutly no point in building an underground from the airport to stephens green if all it does is take the tourists to their hotels. Meanwhile someone wanting to go to killarney has to walk all the way to heuston station... yeah that'll work

This assumes that there would be no stations between the airport and Stephens Green. As there will be stations all along the line what is to stop someone getting off the Metro and changing to the Luas at O'Connell street?

And someone wanting to go to Killaarney (I presume you mean after arriving into Conolly) can take the Luas, which is one of the things it was designed for.

P11 Comms

thejollyrodger wrote:

This P11 Lobbyist seems to have a sound idea or two. Anyone with a crayon can see that the interconnector is a excellent idea and the government should put up the cash for it in the next budget. The only real problem is the connection to the Airport. A metro underground tunnel sounds nice but how about extending the Dart to the Airport and on to Swords, twin track job

This is all Iranrod's Eireann's idea, we are just giving them free PR - because as a lobby group made up of people who want to use rail transport rather than suffer through it, we believe that this is a serious winner and in fact, cannot really be improved upon.

This is it folks - we get this, we solve all the major problems in our national rail network once and for all and for €700 million less than the €2.5 billion stag/hen party conveyer belt from Stephens Green to Dublin Airport.

As the man above said "all the best ideas are the simple ones" and you can't disagree with that. The Interconnector is so brilliant, that to push it aside in favour of the current Airport Metro plan would be a monumental act of stupidity a hundred times more short-sighted than the closing of the Harcourt Street rail line in 1959.

This is the answer, and it gives value to tax payers nationwide becuase it serves them as well. What more could you ask?

Bin the Airport Metro and let's finally get real about public transport in this country once and for all.

BuffyBot

But the metro will bring a whole swathe of new commuters onto a major public transport line

As will this, just from a different area. You seem to be assuming the the number of commuters on the lines the interconnecter plan would join will stay the same. To me, it will increase the numbers. As it stands lines like the Kildare-Hueston one are useless to many people as it doesn't connect. Connecting it to the other forms of transport in Dublin opens up large areas of the city which weren't a viable commuting prospect before.

Hecate

Allowing new communties to be served by rail is an aim of the original DTO proposal from a few years back, of which the interconnector is also an element. But for the moment improving what is there already should be a priority.

The airport metro does stop between stephens green and collinstown but I think its only somthing like 3 or 4 stops, if you couple that with the fact that it doesnt link in with anything else it looks like a waste of (a lot of!) money. As you said it comes down to priorities, the interconnector should be built first as it provides far more 'bang for buck' than a metro by linking up two very important segments of the national rail network with a tunnel that trains can be run through at high speed.

Once it has been completed and proves its worth, perhaps the ministry of finance will be more favourably disposed to loosening the purse strings for an airport metro, or indeed a city-wide one...but that should be a few years down the road.

murphaph

Hi Sliabh,
I noticed your post about working in Munich. The central Sbahn tunnel opened in 1971 or so is almost exactly what the interconnector proposes to be and as I'm sure you know that tunnel was underspec'd when built (for everyone else-the tunnel has been under major renovations for the past couple of years forcing its closure at weekends (sound familiar??), thankfully that work is now complete). Munichs Sbahn system with end-to-end through running of Sbahns would be achieved for Dublin with the interconnector, this allows a MAJOR increase in capacity along lines which at present are woefully under-utilised in comparison to the likes of Munich.

I completely agree that a 'metro', DART really, should be expanded beneath our city (North and South) and the interconnector will do one very important thing in this regard-it will inspire public confidence that we can in fact do something right in Ireland. Let's be realistic, any complete metro system is going to take many years, shouldn't we concentrate on fixing what's not 100% effective first?

(Personally I believe the Luas line from Sandyford to the Green should be replaced with DART and extended south to interchange with DART at Bray and extended north underground to Broadstone and on out to Maynooth along the old MGSWR line, however I doubt ripping up the Luas will happen within 20 years).

I do believe once high capacity, high speed city centre rail is unveiled with the interconnector that people along the Luas lines will feel they were sold a Lemon. I am not anti-tram either, I believe Dublin has a place for trams but more confined to short runs within the canal ring. I really don't think 42 minutes journey time from Tallaght to Connolly is that good, sure it's better than by road and a LOT better, but in reality, it's still pretty slow for all of 15 miles or whatever it is.

The interconnector is really quite visionary and provides an excellent starting point for a metro system (ideally all heavy rail).

btw Sliabh, if you know of any work in Munich for a guy with a degree in electronic engineering give me a shout, I'm trying all avenues to emmigrate (seriously) to Munich, it's a great city.

sliabh

P11 Comms wrote:

This is it folks - we get this, we solve all the major problems in our national rail network once and for all and for €700 million less than the €2.5 billion stag/hen party conveyer belt from Stephens Green to Dublin Airport.

This is my point, the interconnector is the answer to a very different question than the metro. The interconnector is really about the national rail network. The metro is about commuters in Dublin. As of this Autumn when the Luas red line is running then there will be a link between Heuston and Connolly.

Hecate wrote:

if you couple that with the fact that it doesnt link in with anything else it looks like a waste of (a lot of!) money.

This is the bit I don't understand. As far as you are concerned is there only a link if there is a Heuston/Pearse/Connolly scale station? The metro is to cross the Luas red line around O'Connell street and will finish at the Luas green line (which is supposed to be upgraded to Metro so it will be a continuous run to Sandyford or Cherrywod). There is no reason why you cannot change from one to the other so there you have major links right away.

In reality the metro is the second half of the Luas green line that should have been built right from the off.

And murphaph, bad news I am over in Munich working for a US multinational that is transferring their German data centre to Ireland :-(

I have ideas towards moving here myself!

maxheadroom

sliabh wrote:

This is my point, the interconnector is the answer to a very different question than the metro. The interconnector is really about the national rail network. The metro is about commuters in Dublin. As of this Autumn when the Luas red line is running then there will be a link between Heuston and Connolly.

That's the problem. The interconnector is a great solution to its problem. As a side benefit it will do a lot towards solving the inner commuter problem. Partly through providing reliable frequent rail services along previously underutilised urban sections of meduim distance lines, but also by reducing traffic in the city (most public transport in Dublin is Bus based at present).

The metro is an atrocious solution to its problem. Look at the actual proposal, not the "platform for change" version. It has minimal integration with other forms of transport, doesn't extend to swords, and provides very few benefits as a commuter transport solution along its proposed compromise route. Its city centre terminus could use some more thought (how many commuters want to go to stephen's green?). In terms of serving as a means of moving large amounts of commuters flexibly, the proposed single line, non cross city metro is, quite frankly, inadequate. It has no side benefits for other forms of transport, and doesn't have the opportunity to take many cars off the road (the areas it passes through have some of the lowest car ownership rates in all of Dublin).

If you had money to pay for just one, which would you chose?

sliabh

maxheadroom wrote:

That's the problem. The interconnector is a great solution to its problem. As a side benefit it will do a lot towards solving the inner commuter problem.

But there are few commuters wanting to go between the two main stations, and they will have a Luas line. Whereas there are large numbers of people with no service at all along a propsed metro route.

maxheadroom wrote:

Look at the actual proposal, not the "platform for change" version.

I belive there is no formal proposal for a route/stations or anything yet. The consultants report referenced here earlier in the week said that this should be the next stage of the plan - pick a route.

maxheadroom wrote:

It has minimal integration with other forms of transport,

None of you people plugging the interconnector has yet explained why this is true, and why you feel you can't get on or off the metro from the luas or bus? Unless the metro is contained in some sort of sealed system which keeps it's passengers from entering or exiting trains between either end then this is just not true.

maxheadroom wrote:

provides very few benefits as a commuter transport solution along its proposed compromise route. Its city centre terminus could use some more thought (how many commuters want to go to stephen's green?).

As it is to be integrated with the Luas the terminus actually is Sandyford. But you could also argue that the other way - "The Luas will be a failure as "how many commuters want to go to stephen's green?"

maxheadroom wrote:

In terms of serving as a means of moving large amounts of commuters flexibly, the proposed single line, non cross city metro is, quite frankly, inadequate.

I don't see how you can claim that. The Luas can run ~3000 an hour and far greater can be expected from metro (easily 6000-10000) depending on configurations and service frequency. But can you say that there are large volumes of punters looking to go from Heuston to Connolly? (so many that the Luas red line is going to be insufficient?) No, but I bet that there are a large number of poeple wanting to go from the swords, the airport and down through the northern suburbs into town and onwards to the southside.

maxheadroom wrote:

It has no side benefits for other forms of transport, and doesn't have the opportunity to take many cars off the road (the areas it passes through have some of the lowest car ownership rates in all of Dublin).

I am not sure what you mean by side benefits but there is more to public transport than getting cars of the roads. There is access and mobility for the city's less wealthy citizens. Decent reliable high capacity transport links will also make a big difference to the regeneration of the likes of Ballymun

maxheadroom wrote:

If you had money to pay for just one, which would you chose?

The Metro. The bigger need is to work on Dublin's commuter transport infrastructure rather than the national rail network. I just can't see how anyone can argue that the interconnector is a better commuter solution than a metro. It's good for connecting the existing netrowk together, but a new rail link for this will be in place in a few months (Luas - red line). The interconnector just won't serve/provide large numbers of new transport users, something that a metro will.

I am all for the interconnector happening as well mind you. But I think the metro should be first. And frankly from reading the political signs it will be too.

murphaph

Hi Sliabh,
I'm not 100% sure you appreciate the seriousness of the problems the interconnector will address.

Let's look at them;

1) Capacity restrictions at Connolly. Presently DART/Northern suburban and Enterprise and Maynooth and Sligo/Longford services all have to cram into a finite amount of space. The biggest problem here is probably that Maynooth trains must cross the main line as they enter Connolly from Drumcondra. This severely impairs services as a large safety margin must be left between trains for obvious reasons. That's precisely why the Maynooth line lies idle most of the day-because they have no more 'paths' into Connolly.

The interconnector addresses this major shortcoming by routing ALL Northern Line DARTS and commuter trains away from Connolly in the first place and into Spencer Dock, then underground into the city centre and out to Kildare. The additional parts of the proposal include segregating Northern Line DARTS from Enterprise services by quadrupling the track to beyond Howth/Airport Junction. This will leave the way clear into Connolly and across the loop line to Greystones for 16 trains per hour (a metro level of service) from Maynooth and back with no hold ups waiting on green signals at Connolly and in excess of 16 trains per hour from Malahide+/Airport/Howth to Kildare.

2) Large volumes of people (1500+ easily from an 8 car arrow from Kildare) disembarking at Heuston but really wanting to go to the central business districts. Say we have a (commuter) train arriving every 10 minutes (as will at least be the case when Iarnrod Eireann completes the Kildare Route Project ca. 2007) that's 9000 people per hour and say only half actually want to travel to the CBD, that still means 4500 people per hour travelling on Red Line Luas (or no. 90 bus) to town plus the Intercity services passengers. That is stretching a light rail system to breaking point and Luas Red Line goes nowhere near the south inner city anyway.

The interconnector brings people from Kildare/Hazelhatch/Ballyfermot/Cherry Orchard/Inchicore into town-where they want to go. Ad if they don't want to go to town then it gives them MUCH quicker changes to alternative destinations.

3) Terminating trains in the city centre. This is not a good idea as they have to turn back in a heavily congested area slowing down the whole operation as trains move slowly over points and block paths for other trains. International best practice dictates that we run trains right through the city centre and terminate in the outer reaches of the lines. These areas are not at all congested and provide the ideal spot to switch tracks for the return journey.

Clearly the interconnector eliminates this nonsense.

Now, let's all visualise this for a moment. A train every 3.5 minutes from Maynooth to Bray/Greystones interchange possible at Pearse and East wall junction with a train every 3.5 minutes (or less) from Kildare to Balbriggan/Drogheda/Howth/Airport serving all existing and potentially many new stops along the way. Now think down the line to expanding THIS network to serve north Dublin city, take a Luas from Ballymun to the Airport, change to something a little quicker (DART) and whizz to Lucan or wherever. Take a DART from a reopened Dunboyne to Greystones. There are vast swathes of Dublin that could do with a metro, let's lay the best foundation stone in the states history with the interconnector.

It makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

P11 Comms

murphaph wrote:

Now, let's all visualise this for a moment. A train every 3.5 minutes from Maynooth to Bray/Greystones interchange possible at Pearse and East wall junction with a train every 3.5 minutes (or less) from Kildare to Balbriggan/Drogheda/Howth/Airport serving all existing and potentially many new stops along the way. Now think down the line to expanding THIS network to serve north Dublin city, take a Luas from Ballymun to the Airport, change to something a little quicker (DART) and whizz to Lucan or wherever. Take a DART from a reopened Dunboyne to Greystones. There are vast swathes of Dublin that could do with a metro, let's lay the best foundation stone in the states history with the interconnector.

Incredible isn't it. - Minister Brennan is on record as recently as last month, while promoting the Airport Metro as the ultimate public transport solution for Dublin, claiming that the Luas between Heuston and Connolly has greater capacity than the Interconnector and he is "not convinced by the Interconnector".

Does he really want to go down in the books as making the greatest public transport blunder in the history of the state???

I suggest everybody contact your TDs/Political Rep. ASAP and set them straight once and for all. Remember, the Airport Metro is still the only game in town at the moment and the Interconnector is very much the underdog.

there is a map here to help the unconvinced visualise what we get for €700 million less than the cost of a stand-alone, barely integrated, linear urban route between Saint Stephen's Green and Dublin Airport: http://www.platform11.org/dub_indo_ie.jpg

We have an oppertunity to leave a public transport legacy to the next generation which they will thank us for in the future and it's the Interconnector.

Flukey

The interconnector sounds good, but like with many good ideas, when will it all happen? This thread is just a microcosm of the argument and debate that will hold all this stuff up. We need all of the above, yesterday, but there are an awful lot of tomorrows to come before we see it.

maxheadroom

Sliabh, I'll give a detailed reply tomorrow after I've had some sleep (but murphaph did a good job in saying most of what I was going to say anyway). In the meantime, look at thses two maps.

http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~maxhead/railmap-metro.jpg
Map of Dublin's (active) rail infrastructure if the metro goes ahead and the interconnector does not. I stuck pretty close to the last publicly released route published in around Feb of this year. I've been nice and given them a direct interchange at Pearse If anyone has any corrections, feel free to let me know and I'll make them

http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~maxhead/railmap-interconn.jpg
Map of Dublin's (active) rail infrastructure if the interconnector goes ahead and the metro does not. P11 Comms, can you let me know if the new station locations are correct - I had to guess at most of them based on random postings here and on your boards.

Neither map contains the luas because the RPA and Connex have removed all trace of the old maps that showed the actual alignments of Luas and only have the diagramatic straight line map available now. If someone can link me to the original maps I'll be glad to update the maps above with luas.

Also, neither map contains the link to the airport because A it wouldn't fit on the map and B the actual alingment hasn't been decided for the metro and there's some (idle?) talk of having IE build a line to the airport from glasnevin junction. Just assume that in each option there is an airport connection off the top of the map

I have a really hard time seeing how anyone could consider the metro only option to be better than the interconnector only option. In an ideal world, build both (and possibly continue that metro out towards south west dublin) but in an either/or situation, the interconnecor wins IMHO...

P11 Comms

You're bang on the money Max.

I think that people are so pro-Metro because it sounds so sexy, European, modern and urbane that people are drawn to this (and considering how rubbish our public transport system is who can blame them) - but please do not be fooled, the current RPA metro is simply a €2.4 billion bells and whistles indulgence - the Bertie Bowl of rail transit.

The RPA's current Airport metro reminds me of the old fairground stands with some fella in a straw hat going "roll up, roll up and see the wonder of the modern age..."

Like the Western Rail Corridor - it's mostly bollox really.

Dublin already has a "metro" - it is called DART.

www.platform11.org

sliabh

Right, my last word as I am off to Munich this morning and I will be a little busy until Friday (btw this post is brought to you thanks to the free wireless in the airport, ya gotta love it)

The Interconnector:
- Is a national/outer suburban rail solution (has been said by other posters here)
- It is heavy rail which will make it more costly to operate (is self evident)
- Increases capacity on existing services rather than bringing large numbers of new commuters to the city.

The Metro:
- Is light/intermediate rail so will have lower operating costs
- Largely services new areas of the city that have no rail service at all at the moment
- Turns the Luas green line into a real urban light rail system rather than a singularity hanging in space

People here (and over at Platform11) are way too enthused by the idea that the interconnector can be built using the existing infrastructure rather than looking at what is needed to provide a "whole city" solution. Start with the problem ("we need to vastly improve Dublin's transportt infrastructure") rather than the solution ("we could connect major stations using the existing tunnel").

I am a project engineer. About a two years into my career I learned the very hard way that cheaper solutions based on existing hardware are often false economies. We used to build production lines using old/refurbished machinery because it was available rather than buying new hardware that the manufacturer had designed specifically for the job we intended. The results were never better than mediocre and frequently very expensive failures.

Looking at the Platform11 map I still see that the top left side of Dublin (at least quarter of the city's area) will continue to denied an urban rail link. This is the area that metro will service.

BTW if one more person says the metro is "not integrated", has "no links" without justifying it, I will puke! :-)

Now. That was my 23 cents. I will be back on Friday, and who knows where things will be then. As a friend of mine says, "I haven't had this much fun since the pigs ate my baby sister!" :-)

Tschuss!

murphaph

Sliabh you seem misguided about DART when you say it has higher running costs than metro. There is no reason to say this-in fact did you know that the ORIGINAL 1984 DART system can actually operate driverless if needs be? Yes that's right folks-NO DRIVER! CIE originally spec'd the DART very highly and those original 1984 Linke Hoffmann Busch trains were ordered way ahead of their time, and as Automatic Train Protection is used-coupled with the signalling system-this allows driverless. It is a system that is envied in the UK. The DARTs only problem is that it is forced to share linespace with other routes and this is solved with the interconnector.

On a larger scale of course, a new type of metro train (a la Munich Ubahn) would require the construction of a new maintenance depot (hmmm.....don't we have one of those that was only built a couple of years ago in Fairview?......oh wait-no good it's not flashy and new!......thinking on though, the maintenance depot for the railcar fleet, capable of using the interconnector thanks to IEs thinking ahead, IS shiny and new!). We would have to pay for new technicians, training etc etc when IE already have some of the best railway engineers in the world up in Inchicore works-where the real heavy work gets done.

You seem to think that adding capacity to the commuter network (yes that's right-commuter network-not OUTER SUBURBAN NETWORK, which it happens to do ALSO) will not attract more customers.....time for some more visualisations....

My area..(everyone's got an agenda but I'm leaving Ireland soon as so mine is less biased, I won't ever get to enjoy the interconnector)....Dublin 15.

Now, currently the nightmare that is the 39 *QBC* hah! takes an unbelievable amount of time to get to town. The whole system is turned on its head with the interconnector because the 39 is gone, replaced by local buses around Clonsilla, Blanchardstown, Castleknock, Blackhorse avenue, Cabra all feeding the local rail station EXACTLY the way MVG buses operate in Munich! All you gotta do is look at a map of the Munich network and you will see that most bus routes are in fact orbital,linking station to station (not linearly but from one line to the next) and not entering the city at all. This mindset we have about everything ploughing into the city centre and turning around is from the pre war days-we have to get out of it!

Let's pick somewhere else so I can't be accused of bias.....
Lucan! again, before adamstown is built guys, the existing areas around Lucan village and the new sprawl of Foxborough and all that.

The 25 bus is gone-replaced by a shuttle to Adamstown station. People will use this way to the city centre. You should see the thousands of cars that try to get out of this area in the mornings, it's scary! these people are (on a map) close to the existing rail infrastructure but they don't use it Sliabh, why not? you say.....because they've no station and even if they had the capacity doesn't exist on the twin track line shared wih Intercity/outer suburban services and that line doesn't even go to town-it goes to the western end of the city at Heuston!

The interconnector results in a full metro service along existing alignments (and new ones like Clonsilla-Navan) and is NOT JUST A TUNNEL THAT LINKS TWO MAIN RAILWAY STATIONS. Have you used the Sbahn in Munich? do people complain that the tunnel that allows free running of trains from one side of the city to the other was a waste of money? NO, they complained like hell when they were told it was shutting down at weekends for 2 years for improvements though!

It is not flogging an old horse to death, it is unleashing the staggering capacity the likes of which has never been seen before on Irish rail.

I promise that if it's built-you'll agree that it was the best way of spending the money.

thejollyrodger

its hard to say, all the lines on the map do look nice but no one really knows until the construction is finished and the actual service is tested.

I for one have come around to the idea of the interconnector. Its something that should be done automatically without such pondering about the issue. I was in Germany to oand over there planners would have seen to it many years ago. The existing infastructure should be integerated as much as possible and capacity obviously needs to increase dramatically, cue interconnector.

To be honest the Metro/Luas solution is a bit questionable. I think the Luas looks well and is obviously a nice clean efficient way to travel but its seriously expensive, its capacity is already maxed out and it doesnt really connect in with any other transport means. Even if they do go ahead with one metro line, it just going to be sitting there like a bit of a white elephant. Are they going to pay for more Metro lines ? like the orbital route? are there plans to continue expanding Luas and if so can we afford it at E700m a pop.

BrianD

murphaph has hit the nail and the head. The metro project should be binned without further ado (unless a multi line integrated network is presented). What's the difference between the DART and metro? none.

It is interesting that murphaph talks about the Blanchardstown. This area of west Dublin has a rail line. Oddly, it is called the arrow and not the DART. Why is this? Is it because the trains are diesel and not electric? As a result, it is treated differently to the DART line and it shouldn't be. There are few feeder buses etc. Yet, this line if Dart-ified would easily carry more passengers per annum then the coastal line.

As IR have a different mental approach to each rail line this has also instilled into the customer mindset. If all rail lines were marketed under the DART brand then people would feel/believe that we have a city rail network that is usable. Good marketing and visibility is half the battle of gaining public acceptance of public transport. At the moment - despite much investment and new rolling stock - the Maynooth line is still viewed as vastly substandard when compared with the electric DART.

The metro proposal will be a monumental flop and the ultimate Irish joke. Did you hear about the Irish metro? It goes from the airport to a public park! Does it link in with other public transport? No. At the moment it's not even going to Swords where we are told a large number of airport workers live.

murphaph

Swords would be far better served by a spur from the Airport DART offering the people of Swords easy transit to the Airport/South inner City/Bray/Maynooth/Kildare/West city centre/Drogheda all with AT MOST one change and that's just RAIL changes, add bus/Luas and you can add Sandyford/Tallaght and many other places with 1 change and lts of places with no change.

The single line metro is fine if integrated with a larger metro network-but yet again-DART is metro, build it to the same standard and allow IE to use their expertise to maintain it. They had chronic underfunding for years and sure, there are issues within IE that need addressing but their interconnector proposal has from day one struck me as the way ahead.

If it's built, I bet all future extensions to the DART metro would be to DART standard.

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

Cabra all feeding the local rail station EXACTLY the way MVG buses operate in Munich! All you gotta do is look at a map of the Munich network and you will see that most bus routes are in fact orbital

This is a crucial part of a successful public transport network in a large city. First you integrate the media, then you plan the routes to complement each other so that you can pretty much get from anywhere to anywhere else without much fuss. And remember, you can lay your bus routes out as feeders/interchangers even in a city like Dublin that has bugger all rail and tram. I'm not holding my breath, though.

murphaph wrote:

The interconnector results in a full metro service along existing alignments (and new ones like Clonsilla-Navan) and is NOT JUST A TUNNEL THAT LINKS TWO MAIN RAILWAY STATIONS. Have you used the Sbahn in Munich? do people complain that the tunnel that allows free running of trains from one side of the city to the other was a waste of money? NO, they complained like hell when they were told it was shutting down at weekends for 2 years for improvements though!

The Munich S-Bahn is a good example of why the IR Interconnector might not be such a good idea. For those unfamiliar, All of Munich's outer suburban S-Bahn lines travel through Ostbahnhof in the East of the city and Hauptbahnhof in the West. S-Bahn services typically run on a 20-minute interval and they all run down the tunnel that pretty much bisects the old-town and serves four tunnel stations in between the two mainline ones. The S-Bahn tunnel predates the U-Bahn network by about 10 or 15 years, and back when it was the only game in town, there were a lot more trams on the surface.

Today, when there is a mixture of U- and S-Bahn in the city centre, people pretty much treat the two as interchangeable in the central area and take whichever one offers the most direct route. Both offer a similar frequency because, although S-Bahn intervals are a lot longer than U-Bahn, seven S-Bahn lines operate in the tunnel (this is the important bit...).

Now back to Dublin. Here we are talking about a lot fewer suburban routes feeding into the central area underground stations, many of which have quite a poor frequency (off peak at least). Also, because most of these services come from a long way off and most passengers intend to alight in the central area, short-haul passengers within the central area may be faced with packed trains. (Most Munich S-Bahn lines terminate outer suburban stations at either end rather than in the city centre). So, while I don't think it's impossible to make the interconnect usable, I think a lot of thought needs to go into passenger management.

Some other (shorter) thoughts on the matter:

* The interconnector will require a larger tunnel bore in order to support surface stock and overhead power - costly.

* It may only be viable if additional mass-transit is added to complement it (and to avoid long-distance trains being swamped by local traffic). One of the reasons Munich works so well is that you only sometimes choose to use the S-Bahn tunnel in the central area, the U-Bahn lines take a lot of strain off it.

* What Sliabh said about the neglected parts of the city. Though I believe a huge improvement can still be made with the buses we already have and some sane routing - keep the routes short, the schedule frequent and make it easy to change. Cluster them to feed any good-throughput services (could even be QBC) if those services can take the extra capacity.

Dermot

Victor

P11 Comms wrote:

http://www.platform11.org/dub_indo_ie.jpg

How do the route numbers work on this? they don't quite seem to add up.

jd

Victor wrote:

How do the route numbers work on this? they don't quite seem to add up.

Aren't those numbers the hourly frequency of service, peak/offpeak?
Orc do you mean something else?
Jd

Victor

OK, spanner in the works.

Why can't Belfast trains operate direct to Spencer Dock on the existing branch from the northern line, Sligo trains via Drumcondra direct to Spencer Dock. Cork (etc.) via the Phoenix Park Tunnel and the Royal Canal route. And Rosslare trains via Connolly on a spur north of the station or at Grand Canal Dock.

OK, one problem would be that trains were terminating and not through running (through running being more efficient passengerwise), but it could be implemented for the price of the new station (and the Rosslare Spur) and both Connolly and Heuston would be made redundant.

Victor

Does anyone have a proper route map for both either the Metro or the Interconnector.

jd wrote:

Aren't those numbers the hourly frequency of service, peak/offpeak?

Well if it is peak/offpeak, they might explain that is what they mean. Ooops, actually it does, but is a little cryptic about it, the concept of a well thought out key marginally escaping the Indo. I thought is was like a German rail map where route 1 and 2 share terminus "A", but go to different terminii ("B" & "C") at the other end.

Victor

maxheadroom wrote:

Neither map contains the luas because the RPA and Connex have removed all trace of the old maps that showed the actual alignments of Luas and only have the diagramatic straight line map available now. If someone can link me to the original maps I'll be glad to update the maps above with luas.

I'm such an anorak, I did this from memory in under two minutes.

murphaph

Victor,

You're right about the S-Bahns running a 20 min schedule (now going to 10 in some places like Haar I believe) but this is because of population density at the outer reaches of these lines. Places like Markt Schwaben and Feldkirchen. They can't justify a metro service out there so a train every 20 mins is perfectly adequate.

The Dublin version would only have 2 or 3 routes using it (initially). These would be Malahide-Kildare (Sallins initially) and Howth-Kildare (Sallins initially). These are all pretty built up places (Sallins serves Naas). A train every 3 minutes from either end is entirely justifiable and because there will be a train at such regular interval hopefully they won't become the overcrowded cattle trucks that the present Arrow into Heuston is. This means that people coming from Kildare/Malahide can travel in comfort and people in the metropolitan area can use the service as in Munich-as a metro.

You mentioned a key feature, 'through running' of trains and this eliminates an awful lot of the problems associated with rail travel in Dublin. Terminating trains in the city centre is messy, especially at Connolly.

Your other post regarding terminating everything at Spencer Dock is a non runner now-The station is to be built with vary few platforms (2?), it is not designed to be a long term terminus solution, rather a stop-gap until the interconnector is built and in any case, even after Treasury Holdings complete the development of the area-most people will still want to reach the 'old' CBD-south inner city and Spencer Dock is just too far to walk.

P11 Comms

murphaph wrote:

Your other post regarding terminating everything at Spencer Dock is a non runner now-The station is to be built with vary few platforms (2?), it is not designed to be a long term terminus solution, rather a stop-gap until the interconnector is built and in any case, even after Treasury Holdings complete the development of the area-most people will still want to reach the 'old' CBD-south inner city and Spencer Dock is just too far to walk.

There are to be three tracks into Spencer Dock surface with two platforms. The Spencer Dock surface station is not a stop gap - it is to remain even when the Interconnector Station below it is built. They current idea they are playing with is that it'll be a terminal station for a Heuston-Dumcondra-Spencer Dock rail service which is to be developed over time.

It's not a long term solution at all - but the surface station is for keepers even with the Interconenctor up and running.

maxheadroom

Victor wrote:

I'm such an anorak, I did this from memory in under two minutes.

- I've updated the maps, and changed the colours around a bit. Also, here's what it would look like if they built both:

http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~maxhead/railmap-all.jpg

antoinolachtnai

It has to be said that our friends Parsons Brinkerhoff who Iarnrod Eireann have running with this idea have their problems too. The project they are working on in the UK, the West Coast mainline upgrade is said to have overrun by 30 to 50 percent already. Why would you get a bunch of American guys to run a rail project? What possible sense does that make?

That isn't to say it's a bad idea. But we have to be realistic about the costs though. Any project that involves a deep tunnel with stations along the route is going to cost more than the original estimate, possibly a lot more. A lot of the cost estimates we are hearing are just wishful thinking. (Which doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't do the projects, but it does mean we have to be sure the project is really going to bring us where we want to go, and is really going to be beneficial even at a much higher price than the original estimate.)

antoinolachtnai

As I understand it, there is no map for the Metro, because they are nowhere near picking a route yet. The Department of Transport is basically looking for permission in principle to proceed with the idea of running a metro from the city to the airport. This is basically where we were three or four years ago.

If they do get approval, the route will probably end up being a good bit longer than what is being currently suggested, so that it can service more of the suburbs and make a frequent service more viable. It will probably end up looking a lot like the original proposed route, which took a more circuitous journey via the N2/M50 interchange. By the time we are finished, the budget will probably look quite similar to the original budget too.

Victor

maxheadroom wrote:

- I've updated the maps, and changed the colours around a bit. Also, here's what it would look like if they built both: http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~maxhead/railmap-all.jpg

The Red Line is on the wrong side of Busaras You forgot Luas Line 1B(?) to the docklands.

maxheadroom

Victor wrote:

The Red Line is on the wrong side of Busaras You forgot Luas Line 1B(?) to the docklands.

You take one little shortcut...

Fixed now.

Victor

Victor wrote:

I thought is was like a German rail map where route 1 and 2 share terminus "A", but go to different terminii ("B" & "C") at the other end.

Like this.

Victor

Ok, I went poking about with a map last night and came up with a few things.

Should rail routes outside the canal ring necessarily **dictate** rail routes inside the canal (yes, single interchange to any other line is really handy).

Shouldn't rail target un-/under-developed areas (yellow on map attached) within the city to create a synergy between high-density development and high-quality rail services.

Is the ideological Luas -v- DART to the airport debate actually helping or hindering a service to the airport? Surely it should be the best solution to the problem, not dogma, that dictates what should happen.

If the inter-connector project goes ahead, while Connolly-Clontarf does get freed up for intercity services, Connolly-Clontarf might suffer.

A possible "Circle" line in the city centre suffers from an eccentric orbit, too close in the south and to far to the north. Should the alignment of the inter-connector be moved 300-500m further south than suggested to increase coverage (this wouldn't hugely affect the length)?

Any north-south service in the city centre can be as far east/west as the orange and bright green lines on the attached map.

dmeehan

where's the map?

sliabh

There is one problem with all the maps that are being shown at the moment, they only cover the city centre. I will try to scan something up on Friday when I am back in Dublin. When you map out rail lines across the whole city and it's suburbs then you can see why I think the metro design should get priority.

The interconnector only serves areas in/around the canals. The metro rusn right out to the suburbs and through large areas of the north side that are no where near a rail line now and won't be even after the interconnector was built (with or without the rail link to the airport)

This is a very crude approximation. The red lines are the existing intercity, Dart and Luas lines. The black cross the is airport and the yellow are is that huge area of the city that is getting left out!

Andrew Duffy

I agree that the north west of the city is underserved; however, an overpriced underground tram with few stops is not the best way of doing so. What about the original Luas proposal? The most recent design for the Airport "metro" is the city centre and Sillouge-Airport sections of the DTO's Sandyford-Airport metro line linked by the older plan for a Luas from Dundrum-Sillogue via Harold's Cross, Drumcondra and Ballymun. (http://www.dto.ie/fig7.pdf). The sections stolen from the Metro plan will be altered slightly and dumbed down (no escalators, ffs) to save money.

How about building all the green Luas lines on that map along with the full Interconnector plan? That would be great. Further extending the Airport spur to Swords, building the spur to Dunboyne and upgrading the line from Navan to Drogheda would improve matters even more. Icing on the cake would be a bit of work in Heuston to allow a circle line through the Park Tunnel, a few passing loops or even quadrupling of the Northern line to avoid the Enterprise causing gaps in the timetable, and a Luas spur down to Platform 10 in Heuston.

John R

sliabh wrote:

There is one problem with all the maps that are being shown at the moment, they only cover the city centre. I will try to scan something up on Friday when I am back in Dublin. When you map out rail lines across the whole city and it's suburbs then you can see why I think the metro design should get priority.

The interconnector only serves areas in/around the canals. The metro rusn right out to the suburbs and through large areas of the north side that are no where near a rail line now and won't be even after the interconnector was built (with or without the rail link to the airport)

This is a very crude approximation. The red lines are the existing intercity, Dart and Luas lines. The black cross the is airport and the yellow are is that huge area of the city that is getting left out!

What you seem incapable of understanding is that the interconnector project completely transforms the Kildare line both in the frequency and the usefulness of it's inner-suburban catchment. It is not just about linking Heuston with the DART but about making the most use of the current rail lines which go through densely populated and fast growing areas both inner and outer suburban. Currently the patronage from the Ballyfermot and Clondalkin ares is very low because the train only goes as far as Heuston, as well as the new stations being considered this project would increase the capacity and usefulness of all the current rail lines in the city.
I have no doubt the Airport and Ballymun would benefit from the Metro but in terms of numbers there is a much higher catchment on the Kildare line that is not currently served by a Heuston only link.

jlang

There's also huge development taking place (and potential for much more) just off the Maynooth line. It goes through actual green fields inside the M50 and I can't see that lasting too much longer. Those people would expect to be able to use the train to get into town, but won't be able unless the capacity is improved.

maxheadroom

sliabh wrote:

There is one problem with all the maps that are being shown at the moment, they only cover the city centre.

Ok, let the nitpicking commence

Same naming scheme as before:

http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~maxhead/Dublin-all.jpg
http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~maxhead/Dublin-interconn.jpg
http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~maxhead/Dublin-metro.jpg

I have included a connection to swords for both the IE and Metro solutions, because once you're at the airport it doesn't make a huge amount of difference...

maxheadroom

Oh, and if we are to build some kind of metro connection for the north west of the city, I'd say go from glasnevin junction, to finglas, through ballymun, the airport, then to swords. If you wanted to make it cross city you could then bring it into O'Connel St, then another DART connection at high St, then bring it out to tallaght via Rathmines, Terenure etc. I'm not sure if there's a high enough population density on the southside leg though.

Obviously this depends on the IE Dublin plan being build first...

sliabh

Now that's more like it. Nice work there maxh (why is the "Open Golf Centre" by the airport so important though :-)

Given a choice I would for for the first one i.e. interconnector AND metro.